← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Capote's Swans, and How He Betrayed Them (Women Behaving Badly)
00:21:27
Famed American author Truman Capote betrayed many of the wealthy, elite women he considered friends by publishing an excerpt of his never-completed novel, Answered Prayers, which mocked them and revealed their darkest secrets.
Loading summary
Transcript111 lines
- [00:02]
A
If your small business has a problem.
- [00:04]
B
You could say, just my luck.
- [00:06]
A
But you should say, like a good.
- [00:08]
C
Neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [00:10]
A
And we'll help get you back in business. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Suffering from dry, tired, irritated eyes. Don't let dry eyes win. Use Sustain Pro. It hydrates, restores and protects dry eyes for up to 12 hours. Sustain Pro Triple Action Dry eye Relief. Listener support WNYC Studios.
- [00:46]
C
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Truman Capote will be known forever for his classic works In Cold Blood and Breakfast at Tiffany's. But what he really wanted to be most known for was a novel that he never finished, a novel in which he betrayed his closest friends. The novel was titled Answered Prayers. And on the subjects that were thinly veiled portrayals of the Manhattan high society women, Truman called his Swans women like Babe Paley, wife of CBS founder Bill Paley, Lee Radiswell. Radiswell, excuse me, sister of Jackie Kennedy and fashion icon and socialite Slim Keith. Truman befriended these women, stayed in their massive estates, hung out on their yachts, delighted at their distant dinner parties. But when Esquire published an excerpt of that novel in 1975, the swans were less than thrilled to have their dirty laundry aired in public by someone they thought was their friend. The story recounted an affair Babe Paley's husband had with the New York governor's wife, portrayed Slim Keith as a bitter divorcee who had lost her husband to another woman and even claimed that Ann Woodward murdered her husband. The fallout from the story was swift and seems to have caught Truman by surprise. Most of the Swans cut him out of their lives and therefore out of the Manhattan social scene. In the final years of his life, Truman descended into addiction. He never finished the novel that cost him some of his longest friendships. All of this is recounted in the book Capote's Women, A True Story of Love, Betrayal and A Swan Song for an Era by Lawrence Lamer. The book was also adapted this year into the FX series feud, Capote vs. The Swans, which earned 10 Emmy nominations. Lawrence joins me now to discuss his book as part of our series Women Behaving Badly, our tongue in cheek title for a look at the unruly women throughout New York history. Lawrence, welcome.
- [02:38]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [02:39]
C
So what was the research process like?
- [02:41]
A
What was what?
- [02:42]
C
What was the research process like for this book? Did Capote live behind journals, anything like that?
- [02:48]
A
It was very difficult because it was during the pandemic and the New York Public Library was Closed. Which had the Capote papers. The Library of Congress was closed. I couldn't get the Pamela Herman's papers there. Other things were there. I wanted to go to Italy to talk to Marella Agnelli's family there. I couldn't go there. So I wrote it basically based on research I could get, books I could get, and Internet research. That was it. That's the dirty truth.
- [03:23]
C
How are you able to sort through what was fact, what was gossip, and what was pure fiction?
- [03:29]
A
Because I'm very careful about that. I have to get. I want two sources. I want to be sure something's exaggerated. I'm not going to. I'm not going to use it. But if somebody says something, sometimes you don't know if it's true. They can say it, but they have the right to say that and to record what they said.
- [03:45]
B
Let's talk about defining a swan. What made a swan a swan in Truman Capote's eyes?
- [03:52]
A
Well, a swan is not. Look, she's beautiful. Of course she's beautiful. She's very rich. She's elegant. She has a unique sense of taste. Yes, she has these incredibly expensive designer clothes, but she has her own sense of taste. She makes them her own. And she's witty and irresistible. And there were very few women like that then. And now I'm afraid of all the swans.
- [04:16]
B
Who would you say was Truman's favorite?
- [04:19]
A
Babe Paley.
- [04:20]
C
Yeah.
- [04:21]
B
Why Babe Paley?
- [04:23]
A
He just. He just loved her. He said he was one of the first ones she met. He was just so close to her, and she told him everything. And he. I mean, but he was just this merciless gossip. If you would talk to him, Allison, he would. He'd be closer to your closest friend. And you tell him these secrets you don't want anybody to know. And then you'd go to your somebody else and tell that secret to them. Get secrets from them and tell them to somebody else. And he was just this ugly kind of gossip. He great writer, but that was a negative part of him.
- [04:52]
C
Well, let's talk about his beginnings, Truman Capote's beginnings. He's not someone who came from wealth. What were his early years? Life?
- [05:00]
A
Well, he was brought up in a small town in Alabama, and before that, in New Orleans. His mother was socially ambitious. She came to New York and she met this accountant and married him. But. And Truman had only a high school education. Imagine. And he wrote his first book, a bestseller, when he was 23 years old.
- [05:19]
C
So there he is. Man's high school education. Yet he fit in with the ultra wealthy. How did he do that?
- [05:28]
A
He just had this ingratiating manner. The fact is that he was a gay man in a time when you could be arrested for being gay. Right. And he was openly gay. And he just had this charm and this ability to entertain people. But what he knew was he was invited to all these elite dinner parties. But he knew if he wasn't entertaining, if he didn't amuse these people, he would be gone. That was the reality of that world.
- [05:57]
C
He saw him.
- [05:58]
A
He wasn't one of them.
- [05:59]
C
Yes. He saw himself as kind of an interloper maybe into this high society world. Did he ever, ever become an insider himself?
- [06:08]
A
Not ultimately because you know, his Atlanta takes three generations to become. Become a real gentleman or a lady. And to. And to have this, this behavior integral to you. And it wasn't integral to him, but he was a writer and writers get their best revenge. And the best revenge was going to be this book, Answered Prayers, which is going to be a masterpiece that was going to tell the story of the rich in mid century America.
- [06:35]
C
Yeah. You write about this group, that they were an elitist group of people.
- [06:38]
B
You write how people like CZ Guest wrote really believe that their wealth was the result of God's will and that they were.
- [06:46]
C
They were better than her language.
- [06:49]
B
They were better than poor people.
- [06:52]
A
She was unique in that way. She was the worst in that respect. Such an incredible snob.
- [06:58]
C
Did shoot. Did Truman share the belief in any way?
- [07:03]
A
No, because he probably thought. But he was a product of the meritocracy in one of the fields that you know, if you're a great writer, you don't have to. PhD from Harvard. Right. And that's what he was. He had this incredible talent.
- [07:17]
B
I'm speaking with Lawrence Lamer, author of the book Capote's A True Story of Love, Betrayal and a Swan Song for era. It was the inspiration for the Emmy nominated series Feud, Capote versus the Swans. We're speaking with Lawrence as part of our series Women Behaving Badly. Tongue in cheek. Why would you invite Truman to your dinner parties on your vacation?
- [07:42]
A
Because he was so. He was so charming because he was full of the latest gossip. He had stories nobody else knew. He was irresistible as a guest.
- [07:51]
B
Do you think these women viewed him as a real friend?
- [07:57]
A
Yes, yes, in a way. In the way that gay men often befriend sort of socially elite women. Okay. There's a natural affinity there. And that was the kind of friendship it had. And some of them trusted him more than others. I mean, Slim Keith knew not to tell him certain things because she knew what he was like. She knew. She knew what he would do with what she told him. But Babe totally trusted him. Her husband was a philanderer. She, she, she was creating this illusion for herself. Imagine when she was 17, she was in an automobile accident. She, she, her face had to be redone. She lost her teeth. She wore false that she put on every morning when she got up, she was in different. Stuck in a different bedroom from her husband. And he wouldn't even see her until she was totally made up.
- [08:48]
B
You write about that, that their job was to be beautiful, that their job was to present a certain way.
- [08:57]
A
Yes. To show that their husband. This was something that their husband had that was valuable. It was like a painting they could have put on the wall.
- [09:06]
B
When you think about Truman, what the definition of friendship was to Truman Capote, what was it? Did he consider himself a good friend?
- [09:16]
A
I think he did until he betrayed them and he didn't really realize what he had done. He'd say these terrible stories about them and think that they would just forgive him and go on, but that's not the way the world works.
- [09:28]
B
Do you think, do you really think that he was gathering all this material on all of these people and their. There wouldn't be a reaction from these people once it came out because he had that writers.
- [09:42]
A
You can never trust a writer. She said, present company accepted. But anyway, anyway, because whatever you're saying, they're listening to it and they're going to use it. And that's what he did.
- [09:59]
B
How did the women's husbands respond to Truman being so very present in their lives?
- [10:06]
A
It was great. He was gay. They didn't have to worry about him sleeping with their wives. A perfect, perfect person to have around your wife.
- [10:14]
C
Were any of them friends with him as well?
- [10:17]
A
Yeah. Well, William F. Paley really liked him and liked being around him more than any of the others.
- [10:24]
C
They often thought when he came, when he came aboard, that it was actually Truman who was coming aboard. Truman. The president? Not Truman Capote?
- [10:31]
A
No. When they first met.
- [10:32]
C
Tell us that story.
- [10:34]
A
The Pales are going to Jamaica in their private plane and another guest. And he said, do you. Do you mind if I bring along Truman? And of course, Pelly thought, that's the former President of the United States, Harry S. Truman. And so when Truman arrives on the. This little tiny guy with the scarf that goes down to his ankles and gets on. William F. Kelly couldn't believe this and was upset.
- [10:59]
C
What changed his Mind about having him.
- [11:00]
A
There because just how charming he was. There was nobody like him. I mean, that world is totally gone. There aren't dinner parties like that anymore.
- [11:09]
C
My guest is Lawrence Lamer, author of the book Capote's Women. A true story of love, Betrayal and a swan song for an era. It's the inspiration for the Emmy nominated series, Capote vs. The Swans. In reading your book, it seems that some of these women were unhappy with their lives. Despite all the money in the world. What did Truman Capote observe about this.
- [11:35]
B
Gilded cage, these golden handcuffs that the women felt trapped in?
- [11:40]
A
Well, one of the great pleasures in life is learning that someone who's richer and better looking than you are is unhappy. So that's one of the pleasures of reading this book, that these people had everything and they were unhappy. And what I learned, not just from this, but from my entire life and 20 books I've written is don't be jealous of anybody. You don't have any reason to be jealous. This society works by creating this illusion of this place. If we could only get there, we'd be happy. Well, guess what? That place doesn't exist.
- [12:15]
C
Were the swans. They have friendships with each other? Real friendships?
- [12:19]
A
Yeah. Yes, they did. They were close to each other. They weren't jealous of each other.
- [12:23]
B
Were they as close with one another as they were with Truman? Or was it a different. A different vibe?
- [12:28]
A
Actually, it was a different vibe.
- [12:30]
B
Explain.
- [12:31]
A
Well. Well, Truman. Truman created the illusion with each one that he was their closest friend. With. With these women, they were just, you know, they would go out to lunch. There were ladies at lunch. They enjoyed each other's company, but it wasn't with that degree of intimacy. Most of them.
- [12:49]
B
You know, to be honest, though, it wasn't just men who had the affairs. Many of the women had affairs outside of their marriage. Was it accepted for women to have affairs as it was for their husbands?
- [13:02]
A
Not of that era. No way.
- [13:05]
B
So why did they do it?
- [13:07]
A
I guess because they enjoy it. But most of them, I'm trying to think. I mean, Pamela Herriman had. And she would have been a grand courtesan in. In the Renaissance. She just went from man to man, wealthy man to wealthy man. But she was not. She was not married when she was doing. She. She didn't do that when she was married. And I don't think most of them. I'm going down, I'm looking at the list and thinking. But most of them, most of them, Slim Keith had an affair and. And divorced her husband. But. But most of them. Most of them didn't.
- [13:40]
C
Reading through the book, it struck me how they remarried and got divorced and remarried and got divorced. How were attitudes towards divorce different for elite women versus the average woman?
- [13:55]
A
No, I came from a little town, upstate New York. A divorced woman was a scarlet woman. You didn't want her in your house. She was afraid she'd take over your husband. Right. So these elite women had. It's a totally different world. But. But they. But they. The thing we have to realize is they were celebrated. There were these. There were these columns that were immensely popular where they told the stories of these women and the way they dress. I. And believe in. And I'm 82 years old in 1962. I worked for the Watch, Year 8 Iowa Patriot Chronicle in Iowa. And the. And the young men in high school wore white T shirts and jeans, and they wanted to join their. They want to become farmers like their father. The young women, they went to Sioux City to J.C. penney's, and they bought these versions of the kind of clothes the swans wore. And they came home and they wore those clothing. And you knew, looking at them that there were going to be a lot of unhappy marriages.
- [14:55]
C
Babe Paley is the first person that you profile in the book. And it seemed like Truman Capote and.
- [15:02]
B
Babe had a special relationship, and yet it was Babe that truly, really ended up betraying the most in this novel. Why do you think it was Babe's marriage that Truman decided to go after?
- [15:15]
A
I don't. I don't think he's.
- [15:17]
C
You don't think he meant to, like.
- [15:19]
A
I don't think he thought that way. I think this is the best story. He just took the best stories. He didn't care who they were. He was going to tell their stories. And he could have. He could have fictionalized these things a little bit so it wasn't so obvious. But he didn't want to do that.
- [15:33]
B
He seemed like he felt like they had something in common, Babe and Truman.
- [15:37]
C
What would.
- [15:38]
B
What would Truman say, did he have in common with Babe?
- [15:41]
A
Well, they were both outsiders in a way, despite everything that people loved Babe. And she would walk into a. Into. Into La Coq Bosque, and she knew that she was a president. She would look neither right nor left because she knew everybody was looking at her, but she still always felt an outsider.
- [16:01]
B
It seems clear, we've said it clearly, that he was an unrepentant gossip. He just was. But did that reputation ever get him in trouble before the short story?
- [16:12]
A
Not really, because that was. Got him entree into these homes, to these parties, that he was such a gossip. People wanted to hear his latest gossip. And it's really strange because great writers often like some measure of gossip, but not like this. I mean, he just was. It was a terrible indulgence.
- [16:36]
B
It was also really personal. It was also really personal.
- [16:39]
A
Yeah, well, he was. In some ways, he was a nasty person.
- [16:44]
C
One thing that came through in the book is how much the experience of writing In Cold Blood changed Truman. How is he a different person after following that case for so many years?
- [16:56]
A
Well, first of all, look, you can't be a great writer unless you're emotionally involved with what you're doing. And to go out to Kansas and tell the story of these two murders in this world, that he could have gone to Tibet. Tibet wouldn't have been more exotic than Kansas. But he went there, and he befriended one of the murderers. May have had an affair with him, but he totally got involved with him. And any writer, when you finish a book, you get depressed, but it was so much more. Plus the fame that came with and all the money, it just was beyond measure what he had.
- [17:29]
C
Yeah. Explain the level of fame that.
- [17:31]
B
That Truman Capote experienced after the publication of In Cold Blood.
- [17:35]
A
Well, the greatest example of this is his party, the black and white ball that he had in 1966 at the Plaza Hotel, which. Which actually this January, for the premiere of the series that. That ball was replicated. That replicated. So that was the most fabulous party of the era, where he invited all these celebrated people from all different fields of life, and he was the center of it.
- [18:03]
C
You know, as you said, Truman didn't really think the stories were gonna add.
- [18:08]
B
Up to that much.
- [18:09]
C
So what did he want for the.
- [18:11]
B
Goal of the novel when he wanted to achieve what he wanted to achieve with answered prayers?
- [18:18]
A
He wanted a great. He wanted to be like Edith Wharton, who, to me, is just this incomparable writer about. About the rich. And some people thought, oh, you can't write a great book about the rich. Why not? You can write a book about anybody if you do it right. And that's what he was going to do. It was going to be a masterpiece, and he could have done it. Now, what I would have done, if I were his friend, I'd say, truman, you can't do this. You got to write his block. What you got to do is you got to go back and you got to tell the story of your failure to write this book. That will be a great book.
- [18:51]
B
What were the consequences once the book. Once the esquire article came out. What were the consequences of having the Swans cut you out socially in New York?
- [19:00]
A
Because it just wasn't the Swans. Everybody started to turn on him. And that's the way America works, right? You're here, you're a big deal, and suddenly, for some reason, everybody turns on you. It happens again and again.
- [19:13]
B
Aside from Truman's. Truman. Truman's helping the Swans to see their own problems. The 60s and the 70s were a time of immense change in American culture. It was the birth of the femin movement. How did the Swans navigate the change?
- [19:31]
A
They simply weren't part of that. The only one, Gloria Guinness, wrote a column for. For Harper's Bazaar which dealt with the themes of the change in women. She. She was quite brilliant, and she could. She could. She wanted to write a novel. She could have done many things, but her husband didn't want her to do it.
- [19:50]
B
Well, did the stat. Did their status change? Did their cachet changed in the 70s?
- [19:56]
A
Well, that whole world disappeared. That world was for one generation. I mean, women wouldn't do that any longer. You know, just considered self indulgent and kind of worthless. Nobody would do that anymore. But still, the dress. I mean, when the series. The series was so successful in part because people love dress. They love to look at it and they love to feel it and to be part of it.
- [20:20]
C
How did the Swan's social rejection of Truman Capote contribute to his downward spiral?
- [20:26]
A
Well, that was the crucial thing. He began to drink and take drugs and totally dissipated himself.
- [20:33]
C
How did it affect his career?
- [20:36]
A
Well, he couldn't write. His most creative act in his last years was to pretend he was writing. His longtime lover, John Dunphy, said that children would be in the bedroom leaving through movie magazines. And he's on the phone telling people he's writing his book. He was. He just couldn't write anymore. Totally blocked for all kinds of reasons. Devastating thing to happen to a relatively young writer.
- [21:04]
C
The book was nominated. The TV show Feud, Capote versus the Swans. 10 nominations. Tom Hollander's work as Truman Capote, Naomi Watts, and the portrayal of Babe Paley. What did you appreciate about the book, about the TV show?
- [21:18]
A
First of all, what I appreciated is, first of all, it wasn't paint by numbers. They took a lot of big chances in this. Okay, for James Baldwin. One hour is with James Baldwin and Truman. Well, James Baldwin hardly knew Truman. That was all totally made up. And there were other things that were kind of. I disagreed with, but I admired that they took these art for something that probably cost 70 or 80 million dollars. They took these artistically daring things. Okay.
- [21:45]
C
Lawrence Lamer is the author of the book Capote's Women A True Story of.
- [21:49]
B
Love, Betrayal, and a Swan Song for the Era. It's an excellent read.
- [21:54]
C
Michigan Governor Gretchen Mutmer, she's here. She has a new book out. She's storming the country on behalf of.
- [21:59]
B
Kamala Harris presidential campaign.
- [22:01]
C
She'll join me next.
- [22:05]
D
They say if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. At Amica Insurance, we know what matters most to you, and we work even harder to protect it. Together, as a mutual insurance company, we're built for our customers and prioritize your needs. Amica empathy is our best policy. Visit amica.com and get a quote. Today NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship wnyc.org to learn more.