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- [00:00]
Host/Announcer
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- [00:27]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Spring is now in full swing. Flowers are blooming in parks. Community gardens are getting greener by the day, and stoops are now filled with planters. It's time to talk to Stephen Orr, former editor in chief of Better Homes and Gardens, who has a new book out. It's called the Gardener's Connecting with Nature Through Plants. It's out today. Stephen, thanks for joining us.
- [00:50]
Stephen Orr
Thank you, Alison. It's great to be here on such a beautiful day.
- [00:53]
Alison Stewart
Listeners, what questions do you have about spring spring plants? Maybe you want to know when's the best time to plant or how to handle fluctuating temperatures. Maybe you've never gardened before and you want some tips on where to start? You can call us now at 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Maybe your plant is dying and you're not sure why, or you want to know what's the best kind of plant you should buy for a certain environment or a certain space? Listeners, we could take any of your questions about plants and plant home care. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You say that gardening is sort of a therapeutic experience for you. How has gardening improved your mental health?
- [01:39]
Stephen Orr
Well, I think all of us struggle with, you know, all the things that are floating around in the world right now and they're delivered to us primarily through our phones. So one thing I love about gardening is I can't have my phone with me. You know, my phone has to be somewhere else otherwise it's going to get muddy or wet. So for me, that's the first and foremost reason is to just get away from scrolling and all that stuff. But I'd also say, and this is really the point of the book, and that's why the subhead of the Gardener's Mindset is Connecting with Nature Through Plants, is that I'm hoping this book will encourage people to, to get outside and interact with plants in some way so that that connects them onto nature in a bigger way. You see what I'm saying? It's hard to be anti nature when you're gardening because nature has the upper hand. So my goal with the book is I'm quite kind of an evangelist for gardening because I do think it helps all of us get outside and be in nature.
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Host/Announcer
You've guarded all kinds of environments on
- [02:42]
Alison Stewart
top of buildings in New York City
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Host/Announcer
when you lived in Idaho. Now you're at your house in Cape Co. How has adjusting to such different landscapes influenced your outlook on gardening?
- [02:54]
Stephen Orr
Well, and the book is part memoir. It's about 33 essays that I wrote on a variety of topics. And there's memoir elements in the book. And I wanted to show people that from a very early age, my parents showed me how to garden. My dad, I'm a first generation non farmer from West Texas, so I didn't grow up on a farm, but both my parents did. And I think my dad in particular wanted to show me where food comes from. So when I was a little kid, I was always right by his side while we planted tomatoes and black eyed peas and okra and all those things. And then because it was the 70s, I gardened inside with my mom. And I learned to love houseplants, so I loved growing those things with her. So as soon as I had a chance, I. When I moved to New York City to work in magazines in the late 80s and early 90s, back in those days, Allison, I ended up in a very tiny but duplex penthouse apartment on West 19th street between 9th and 10th Avenue that had a sliding glass door out onto the roof and a hose hookup for 950amonth.
- [04:00]
Host/Announcer
Classic.
- [04:01]
Stephen Orr
Classic. And I had to have two roommates to make that work on my salary of $16,000 a year. And, you know, and I just looked out there and I thought, hey, there's a hose hook up here. And I started with a small white plastic window box. I'll never forget that I put herbs in. And that's what got me really started on as an adult, really wanting to garden. And we filled that thing with so many pots and trees and rose bushes, and we did not pay attention to weight restrictions or anything. It was a rental. So at one point, when we finally had quite a big, you know, botanical garden up there for my husband and I, the landlord was like, okay, y' all gotta go. So we lost the apartment.
- [04:46]
Host/Announcer
This is a text that's perfect for you. It says, I have a roof and balcony to use and some planters. I want an herb garden. Cilantro, mint, basil, green onions, parsley. Any recommendations for planting all of these together?
- [04:59]
Stephen Orr
Yeah, you can plant, you know, the bigger the Pot, the better for. Especially in New York City, you know, I was up there watering, especially during the heat of the summer, in July and August, you know, I was watering every day. My husband and I were watering, you know, for a long time. And so to make it easier on yourself, whatever the biggest pot pot you can come up with, either it's a window box or a round pot, go for size as much as you can, weight restrictions permitting, because that amount of soil helps. It keeps it from drying out. And that's the main thing. You know, plants love water the most, and that's what you need to make sure you can do. I would say go for the things that you use a lot of. For instance, I can't have enough chives. I can't have enough mint. I use a lot of those two things, but I also use some unusual things. Like, I really love marjoram. And marjoram is a type of oregano with a specific flavor, and I use that a lot as well. And tarragon. So just grow what you like to cook with, because I can tell you it's so nice to walk out there and grab a handful of that instead of having to have the clamshell in your fridge that, you know, kind of. You hope to use it all, and then it kind of goes bad.
- [06:11]
Alison Stewart
So let's talk to Luke, who's calling us from the Upper west side. Hi, Luke. Thanks for taking the time to call. All of it. You're on the air.
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Caller
Hey, thanks for taking my call. I was curious about any gardening tips for the fire escape. My fire escape is sort of blasted by sun most of the time, and the pigeons love to get after whatever we try to put out there. So I'm wondering if there's any, you know, rugged, rugged plants that would survive out there.
- [06:40]
Stephen Orr
Well, in. In what. What direction do you face on your fire escape?
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Caller
Facing south, I guess.
- [06:47]
Stephen Orr
Yeah, so that's really. That's really sunny. So that's good. But it also, as I said, in the summertime, can get pretty hot up there. So, you know, as I said, some of these herbs are pretty tough. Rosemary, chives, mint can get a little bit wilty if it's not getting enough water. I would say, you know, love climbers. I love growing morning glories, easy things to plant from seeds or morning glories or hyacinth beans. Those are really pretty. I will say to you, I don't know what your relationship with your landlord is, but if it was like mine, you know, that fire escapes are technically something you have to keep clear. So just from a legality standpoint, I love everyone gardening on their fire escapes, but also, you know, there's some issues there. So don't say where you live on the air. And as far as pigeons go, yeah, those are a problem. And I think growing scent, you know, I don't have a lot of pigeon proof recommendations off the top of my head. I think the more pungent. And that's why I think herbs might work. Lavender things that I'm hoping they may find because a lot of. Well, let me just say one thing. The reason a lot of herbs that we love have this pungency is because animals don't like it. So it's to keep animals from eating them. So things with strong flavors like lavender, sage, rosemary, they tend to be avoided by most critters. So I would hope to try that with the pigeons. You know, I don't know if you want to get one of those plastic owls that I see around, but there's that too.
- [08:21]
Alison Stewart
I love that hearing about that lavender. I have to try that. Our guest is Stephen Orr, a veteran gardener, former editor in chief of Better Homes and Gardens. He has a new book, it's out today. It's called the Gardener's Connecting with Nature Through Plants. We're taking your calls on plant care and how to start your very own garden. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You say that a lot of what you've learned has come from trial and error. On the inside jacket of your book, it actually says the road to great gardening is littered with dead plants. Why do you think it's so important to experiment with planting?
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Stephen Orr
Well, it's kind of funny because my book agent, who I've done this is my third gardening book. And when I put that in the proposal and showed it to her, she said, take that line out, it's depressing. But then my, my editor loved it so much she put it on the back cover. So you never know what's going to appeal to people. I think she liked the honesty of that. I would say, you know, killing plants is never fun. It's also can be expensive. So, you know, budgetary concerns are something. But every plant that I've killed or has died on my watch because sometimes I don't, I didn't do anything. It just happened. I almost always learned something from that. I've learned well, I thought it was doing okay there and now I realize it's not getting enough sun or those Rabbits ate it or whatever it is, you know. So every time I'm learning how to work with nature but also protect what I want to grow. So I do think that interaction with nature, of growing something where Mother Nature always has the upper hand is a great lesson for us as human beings, you know, and for instance, I used to work, I used to be Martha Stewart's garden editor. And one reason I think she loved gardening, she loves gardening so much. I think one of her, it's obviously one of her primary passions. I think she loves that Mother Nature's in control and she has to adapt. You know, I'm just, you know, Martha might say otherwise, but I think we all appreciate that nature's in charge.
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Alison Stewart
Let's talk to, let's go with Jason. Hey, Jason's calling in from Astoria. Hey, Jason, thanks for taking the time to call, all of it. You're on the air.
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Caller
Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. Very timely conversation because I'm in the backyard amidst a battle with ants right now. So what is the best way to keep ants from my garden and crawling up into my house?
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Stephen Orr
Well, this is a seasonal problem, I think, for most people. And right now I haven't a little infestation. I don't know where they're coming from. You know, little kind of sugar ants around in the kitchen. You know, I don't use any poisons. You can try something like strong vinegar, you know, on the nest. You can also just keep trying to wash them away. Are they coming up out of the ground and then into your house somehow, or how do you think they're getting around in the garden?
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Caller
Yeah. Yes. I have an in ground and above ground. And so they're coming from. And then they're, you know, I live in a story. I have a little yard and they just climb up the walls and I, I spray the wall and I clean it and, and you know, I tried some, you know, laying some borax down and things like that, but. Yeah.
- [11:35]
Stephen Orr
And do you find, do you find it to be a seasonal thing where they get, they go away after like this period in spring or do they torment you for the whole summer?
- [11:45]
Caller
They're, they're usually, they come and goes, you know, I'm sure like after I've cleaned today, they'll be back in like four weeks. And so, you know, I clean and I, some stuff down. I don't use any like, you know,
- [11:55]
Stephen Orr
poison things like that, Pesticides. Yeah, you can try the vinegar or there's even horticultural vinegar, which is really much Stronger. That stuff you have to be very careful with because even for your skin, you don't want to touch it. You need to wear gloves and stuff. And I wouldn't really spray it. I would more douse them. But I would try something like that, I think, to see if it works.
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Host/Announcer
Good luck, Jason.
- [12:17]
Alison Stewart
You know, Stephen, you're clearly in the mindset that anyone could be a gardener if they try a little bit. But first of all, what are the
- [12:23]
Host/Announcer
common mistakes that people make? Because sometimes when people make a mistake, they'll walk away from a project.
- [12:28]
Stephen Orr
I, I think the common mistake is loving the plant too much sometimes, especially a house plant, and over watering it, maybe overfeeding it, you know, leaving it alone and letting it do its thing is a. Is a good idea for most plants. You do want to tend to them. Some people want to over. It's kind of like they kind of want to overdo the relationship, so they want to over prune and maintain the plant. I think letting plants do their thing and observing them is a much better approach. Although watering is essential. And just, you know, my tip for anyone, if you've got a house plant or two or lots of houseplants, is, you know, stick your. The best way to know is to. Sometimes you can learn by the weight of the pot when you pick the pot up. Like, that's how I mainly do it is when I'm walking around the house and I'm like, I don't remember the last time I watered that. I'll pick it up. I can tell that it's light, you know, versus when it has water in it. The other thing is to stick your finger in up to the second knuckle, I always say, and see if it's wet at all. Most plants need to dry out between waterings. So people over love their plants. And that's why the death of a plant to a lot of people gets kind of anthropomorphized in a way. And so they kind of embody the plant, which it does have a life. So I understand. But sometimes people get very hung up on a plant dying and it makes them very sad. You know, someone like me has killed so many that you get kind of numb. I guess I can tell you when I don't like it when they die.
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Alison Stewart
So we're getting a lot of texts asking about what are good plants for Northern Exposure.
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Stephen Orr
Oh, that's a good one. That's a really hard one. And you know, I help our garden co op. We have a co op apartment in Jacksonville, Jackson Heights. And it's a big old 1930s building on one of those nice avenues. And we struggle. We do all the gardening ourselves as a group in the building and we really struggle with the north facing aspect. I tend to go with shrubs. They, you know, flowers. And because it never gets sunlight, it's pure shade all the time. I would imagine the plants are receiving some bounce sunlight from the building across the street, but only a little, you know what I mean? Like, if you hold your hand up, you barely get a shadow. That's one way to tell, tell how much light they're getting. So I tend to go with shrubs. Evergreens are great. And then a mixture of blooming shrubs we've had pretty good luck with. There's a really nice native shrub called clethra, or summer sweet, that has little tiny white, kind of spiky little bottle brush flowers. And in July and August it smells like, kind of like almond candy. That's a nice one. We've been using elderflowers there. They work pretty well, especially the dark one, sambucus. There's a dark leaved elderflower. We have some yews and we have some crepe myrtles that have done pretty well in the shade or partial shade. And then underneath for ground under. You know, ground covers are important, so your most basic are going to be pachysandra and things like that. But you can jazz it up with some really, if you have good soil and some mulch. I really am a fan of shade plants like lungworts. It's a weird name because lungwort sounds kind of weird, but it's a beautiful plant with beautiful flowers and spotted leaves that are lung shaped. That's why it's called lungwort. They used to think it cured lung diseases because it was shaped like a lung with spots. But it makes the most beautiful flowers this time of year and that one really can do really well in shade. Also ferns. So I would say a combination of shrubs that are found kind of there for year round, plus some bloom and then an understory of ground covers.
- [16:16]
Host/Announcer
We're talking to Stephen Orr. His new book is called the Gardener's Connecting with Nature Through Plants. We'll have more with Stephen and we'll take more of your calls after a break. This is all of it.
- [16:37]
Alison Stewart
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Stephen Orr, a veteran gardener, former editor in chief of Better Homes and Gardens. He has a new book which is out today, the Gardener's Mindset, Connecting with nature through plants. A lot of your early gardening inspiration came from essays rather than a straightforward this is how you plant. How does the essay format help you with these skills?
- [17:06]
Stephen Orr
Well, I've been, I've been wanting to write a book of garden essays for a while because when I started gardening it was pre Internet in the 90s, early 90s, and so there were lots of reference books and how to books. But I found myself reading books that had been been written really over the past century by, by more literary, kind of a literary style of writing because I could hear from these famous garden writers like Vida Sackville west or she wrote a column for her paper. You know, she's a famous writer in Britain, in England, also wrote a column for her paper, newspaper in the UK every week. And what they're giving is a lot of opinion. And the opinion that I liked, you know, I didn't like every opinion, but I enjoy hearing experienced gardeners opinions. I learned a lot and I love reading. So when I wrote this book, I wanted this book to be a love letter to books. And I wanted it my, my imagination was it's not a coffee table book because it is a smaller size. I wanted it to be a bedside book so that we could go to sleep reading essays, not just mine, but in woven throughout the book are a bunch of recommendations of books from the past 100 years that I think have a similar feeling of trying to help share people's opinions and tastes and ideas for gardening. And the best way to do that's an essay. So the book is really a love letter to those books that I learned so much from.
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Host/Announcer
Let's talk to Lisa, who's calling from Stuytown. Hi Lisa, thanks for calling, all of it.
- [18:30]
Caller
You're on air. Hi, how are you?
- [18:34]
Host/Announcer
I'm doing well.
- [18:36]
Caller
Good. Okay. My question was I didn't know I was going to get on the air, but okay. I have a house in Columbia county which is two hours north. It's just like a weekend house two hours north. It's in the woods, woodland area. And I planted a tree about five years ago in memory of my mom who passed away. It's a dogwood, a pink dogwood. And it, it's alive but not thriving. And I just wondered if your guest has any thoughts about why it's not thriving. It does leaf out and Maybe it's grown 6 inches, 8 inches tall since I bought it.
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Stephen Orr
And how tall is it all together?
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Caller
I would say about, I'd say maybe five and a half feet, maybe a little taller.
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Stephen Orr
And the deer haven't eaten it?
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Caller
Well, yeah, that's a good question. You know, their antlers. I read that deer. Can they rub their antlers on the actual trunk? So they have done that, but they have not eaten it.
- [19:48]
Stephen Orr
Okay. Well, it's really ugly thing to do, and some people do it. I used to have a little lake cabin upstate in Sullivan. And the deer were just made it. It made it impossible to grow a lot of things. And starting a young tree was hard with that. So sometimes people put a kind of a tall cage around it until it grows taller than the deer, which is not pretty, but at least it gets your, Your, your tree a chance to get above the deer line. The other thing I'd say is, is it. Is the base of it open, meaning it's not choked by grass or lawn. Also, you could kind of open that up by digging a circle, maybe, you know, two feet, two and a half feet in diameter, and then put mulch there. But don't have the mulch touch the base of the. Kind of pull the mulch away from the base of the tree. Trees like it with kind of an open base, but they do really like that mulch layer around them. It helps preserve moisture. If I wanted to get it going, I would make sure I fed it. Especially this time of year. I'd give it a really nice feeding. I like to use natural fertilizers, so you could, you could go online and I mean not online or to the local nursery and ask them what's best, but you could buy some plant tone or you could buy a fish emulsion. Sometimes this time of year, I'll make a big, you know, watering can with part fish emulsion to water. I'll, you know, follow the directions. That's a really nice early jolt for that plant to leaf out because you really just want it at this point to grow and make a lot of leaves so it can feed itself. And then later on, hopefully you'll get this beautiful display of flowers they like to be in. They're an understory tree, dogwood, so they do well usually under other trees. That's where they grow naturally. Is yours in the open or is it under a tree?
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Caller
It's under trees.
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Stephen Orr
Yeah, so they should be okay there. So I would say maybe it's a. Maybe it's a little bit of a feeding thing. Maybe each. You don't have to feed it. Like I said, don't over love it. But every spring give it a nice start, is what I would say. And then during the heat of the summer, if it's dry, put the hose on it for a little while and let the hose run so it gets deeply watered.
- [21:58]
Alison Stewart
We're getting some suggestions from listeners. One says ants hate cinnamon. Sprinkle that around, they will go. Another says plants on fire escape isn't just a matter of legality, it's also a matter of safety. Please encourage people not to put plants on fire escapes.
- [22:12]
Stephen Orr
This person is correct.
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Alison Stewart
You recommend planting native species?
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Stephen Orr
Yes, I do.
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Caller
Love.
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Stephen Orr
Well, I, I grow everything, so I'm not a pure native plant person, but I love, love, love supporting wildlife. So my favorite thing to do, even if you're in the city. When I had my roof garden, you know, the amount of insects and butterflies that visited that roof garden was really great. And so trying to find nice native plants that work really well. Some of the best ones are the native milkweeds. Not so much the weedy one that has the pods you see on the side of the highway. That one's good. But there are others that are orange flowered asclepias that are milkweeds. Other plants that do well are. There's some native mountain mints that the pollinators love and they're very strongly tasting of peppermint. But there's several different mountain mints that are American. I love growing asters, especially in the fall for a nice final jolt of purple color or white or pink. And the asters will be filled with all sorts of insects and, you know, keeping all that mess around. If you do have an in ground garden, keeping your garden on the messier side versus the completely, you know, manicured side is much better for wildlife of all sorts, invertebrates, also lizards and pollinators.
- [23:39]
Host/Announcer
My guest is Stephen Orr. His new book is out today. It's called the Gardener's Mindset Connecting with Nature Through Plants. We're taking your calls on plant care and how to start your very own garden. If you have any questions, give us a call. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Let's talk to Aiku, who's calling from Edgewater, New Jersey. Aiku, thank you so much for calling all of it. What's your question?
- [24:04]
Caller
Hi. Hello everyone. Great talk. I have a question because I have many plants in the house and sometimes they die. I have no idea. Did I put too much water too? I should I have put something different. So I saw these ads about some apps where you, you know, point the camera into your plant and it tells you all this needs, you know, eggshells this one needs milk or coffee ground or this or that. Do you believe in this? Is it like a, you know, fad or, you know, what is your take on that?
- [24:40]
Stephen Orr
I'm pretty low tech. I use my finger and, you know, like, I think most of your houseplants, it depends on what you're growing. But if you're growing what we would call an ordinary houseplant, those plants are subtropical plants that come from parts of the world where they're a. They're generally not hardy outside and they're able to live in human conditions. And, you know, that was kind of discovered over the past 100 years as people started to have heated. Heated homes, especially in the Victorian, Victorian era, people started to have these houseplant collections. So if you're growing what are known as kind of ordinary houseplants that you see around a lot, primarily the main culprit is people not as people watering too much so they get root rot. The other thing is make sure all your pots have a hole in the bottom and make sure if they do have a hole in the bottom, that they're not sitting in a saucer of water for more than a little bit. So, for instance, I tend to water things in the sink and then put them back, you know, or sometimes in the winter, especially with our. With our heat in New York City, it depends. If you have electric heat's not great, radiator heat's not great. It makes a very dry environment for most of these plants because they tend to grow in moister places. So the plants. At this point in the year, a houseplant is limping to the finish line of spring. And if you get a chance, open your window once in a while so the plant can appreciate that fresh air this time of year. But there's a lot of different factors. It's hard for me to say. I'd say the biggest culprits are overwatering, poor drainage. And if you see any plants with bugs, that's always an issue, too. Whitefly scale. Those infestations can happen as well.
- [26:26]
Alison Stewart
You recently wrote a piece for the New York Times about color in your garden. And you sort of suggested that you have to plan for color, even if you want it to be wild. What's the first step towards a colorful garden?
- [26:39]
Stephen Orr
I. I think just having a plan in a. And. And a mindset not to over. Over, over brand, but I love color. I love playing with it. You know, I, I used to work at the New York Times, actually in the fashion of the New York Times, before It was tea and I didn't really care so much about the clothes. But I love the colors of fashion. I love paying attention to what's fashionable and, and what people are wearing. Alison is wearing a beautiful dress or shirt at the moment, by the way, which that could inspire a color palette. Like anything can make your color palette. So I would say just have intention about what your colors are. And some of the easiest things you can do are work on the color wheel a little bit. Like maybe you learned in an art class, which is go with a complementary color. Go with oranges and blues. Those are complementary yellow and purple. Or those tend to work well if you want a more vivid look. If you want to kind of blend more, pick colors on the color wheel that are next to each other. So you could go from like a pale yellow to an acid green to even a pale orange. Or you could go from what I call vibratory tones, which I love experimenting with, which are bright purples, bright blues, bright magenta from the ultraviolet end of the spectrum. And it just becomes a fun way to kind of put a little guardrail around your plant shopping. And you can kind of think, okay, this will look really pretty together, you know.
- [28:09]
Host/Announcer
The name of the book is the Gardener's Mindset, Connecting with Nature Through Plants. Thanks to Stephen Orr for taking questions from our listeners. Thank you so much for joining us and happy gardening to you.
- [28:21]
Stephen Orr
Happy gardening and I hope everyone has a great time. Enjoy.
- [28:24]
Host/Announcer
Spring Coming up on all of it. On today's full bio, we'll learn how 17th century dust master Johannes Vermeer worked for one one patron who funded most of his work. And we'll hear about how his mother in law used to influence her. Well, use her wealth to influence him and his family. We're talking about the book Vermeer, A Life Lost and Found. We'll get to it right after the news.
- [28:56]
Stephen Orr
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date? Oh, no.
- [29:09]
Caller
We help people customize and save on
- [29:11]
Stephen Orr
car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.
- [29:20]
Host/Announcer
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [29:23]
Stephen Orr
Liberty CME Group is the world's leading derivatives marketplace. Capitalize on around the clock access to highly liquid global futures and options markets. Across all major asset classes. CME group, where risk meets opportunity.