← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Carol Kane Nominated for an Independent Spirit Award in 'Between the Temples'
00:30:08
We speak with actors Jason Schwartzman and Carol Kane, alongside filmmaker Nathan Silver to discuss the film, "Between the Temples."
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- [00:04]
Alison Stewart
Listener supported WNYC Studios.
- [00:16]
Jason Schwartzman
This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. The nominees for next year's Independent Spirit Awards are out and it's a good reminder of what a strong year it's been for independent film featuring lots of up and coming creative people on both sides of the camera, many of whom we've heard right here on Olivet. I Saw the TV Glow, a coming of age psychological horror drama has been nominated in five categories, including a Best Director nomination for Jane Schoenbrun, who came on all of it to talk about it back in May. We also had director Sean Wong join us to discuss his film Didi, which is nominated in four categories including Best Feast, First Feature and Best Screenplay, both credited to Wong. Comedian Julio Torres joined us to talk about his surreal immigrant comedy Problemista, which is nominated for Best First Feature and Best First Screenplay. You can head to our show page@wnyc.org or subscribe to our podcast if you want to revisit some of those conversations ahead of the 2025 Independent Spirit Awards. And by the way, tomorrow we'll be talking with Ramel Ross, who wrote and directed an adaptation of Colson Whitehead's Nickel Boys, which is nominated for cinematography and Best feature. But right now we're going to hear about a dramatic comedy about a Jewish faith leader going through a crisis of faith, plus an actress nominated for her role. Between the Temples falls a cantor named Ben Gottlieb, played by Jason Schwartzman, who faces a crisis of faith after the sudden death of his wife. The cantor loses both his ability to sing and a broader sense of pur. That is, until Ben's old gray school music teacher, Carla re enters his life looking to be bat mit baas mitvas. Excuse me. Carla is played by Carol Kane, who is up for best Supporting Performance at this year's Independent Spirit Awards. In between lessons, Ben and Carla form an unconventional relationship which allows Ben to re examine his life while focusing more on the present and allows Carla to reconnect with her faith and Jewish identity. We talked about between the Temples here on all of it with actors Jason Schwartzman and nominee Carol Kane, along with filmmaker Nathan Silver. I had read that the film was partially inspired by Nathan's own mother, so I started by asking him what aspect of his mom's life he hoped to spotlight.
- [02:47]
Nathan Silver
Well, I was making a documentary about my mom. My mom grew up in a socialist household and religion wasn't really a part of her life. Who was culturally Jewish, but she Joined this temple and in upstate New York. They just. My parents had just moved from the Boston area to upstate New York and they were looking for some kind of community. So they kind of, they sought it at the temple, went back to their roots. And I, while shooting this documentary, I found out she was going to get her Bat Mitzvah. She was like 68 years old. And I was kind of in shock, not only that she had joined a temple, but also that she was in this B'nai Mitzvah class. So I relayed this to my friend and former publicist Adam Kirsch at a party a few weeks later. And he's like, there's a movie there. We need to do like a Harold and Maud riff where like a latent, like a latent life Bat Mitzvah student falls for her, for her younger, like, aunt or rabbi as she goes through the lessons. And now, now we have a movie somehow, all these years later.
- [03:56]
Alison Stewart
Jason, your mother.
- [03:58]
Carol Kane
Yeah. Thank you.
- [03:59]
Jason Schwartzman
Thanks, Mom.
- [04:00]
Alison Stewart
Thanks.
- [04:00]
Nathan Silver
Cindy Silver. Yep.
- [04:04]
Jason Schwartzman
Jason, you're a musician. You've. You're an actor. Obviously you've co written scripts. What was unique to you about this script?
- [04:13]
Alison Stewart
Well, initially, one of the, I guess just right out the bat, the way that it was written in the way that Nathan conveyed this sort of sense of loss. But it was funny. It had a kind of, I don't know, I can't describe it, but it was simultaneously I was with this character and felt so much for this character who was, as you say, grieving. He's widower and he's really lost his sense of purpose. He does not know what to do anymore, and the things that he loved don't bring him any pleasure. And yet reading it, I couldn't wait to find out what happens next. There was a real sense of hope, I suppose, that Nathan kind of wove through it with the comedy and with his unexpected sense of storytelling. And then of course, once Carol's character enters, all bets are off. And yeah, it was just like. It was like being with a friend who's maybe down on their luck, but you're listening to what they're saying and you're grinning. That makes sense because you know everything's maybe going to be okay or that. That this is a necessary part of their lives.
- [05:39]
Jason Schwartzman
Where is Carla when we first meet her? Carolina.
- [05:43]
Carol Kane
Well, I've made a decision to do this thing that I've been wanting to do since I was little. And I have encountered no's everywhere. From my parents, then when I got married, from my husband, they Just didn't want me to get my Bat Mitzvah. They didn't want to embrace the religion. And my husband has died. Now I have a grown son who you meet in the movie. My husband has died and of course my parents are gone. And I decide I'm going to do it now. I'm going to just do it for myself now. And I aggressively go after Cantor Ben to teach me that, my Torah portion. And he is having none of it, but I'm having none of it. Is having none of it. And, you know, it doesn't really sort of force him to do it. And then our relationship is unexpected for both of us and it changes both of us profoundly, I think. And so, and my son, by the way, I mentioned, we all go out to dinner, Canterban, my son, my son's wife and two kids. And I say what I'm going to do. Or you say what I'm going to do, you say what I'm going to do the Bat Mitzvah. And my son just starts like howling with laughter at how stupid and ridiculous an idea that is. And so that's another person that won't support me. But I, by that time I have been supporting me. So he gives me the hope and the strength to follow through.
- [07:51]
Jason Schwartzman
Nathan, each of your characters has very distinct behaviors. Like Ben loves mudslides. When you are deciding on characters, how do you decide what behaviors they're going to have that are going to tell us more about their character?
- [08:04]
Nathan Silver
Well, Chris and I, my co writer, Chris Wells and I, we think through each character as best we can throughout the whole writing process. And then, you know, we don't send a finished script, like a, your standard 120 page screenplay to the actors. We send something that reads like a novella and then it allows the actors to imagine more of what their characters could be. And there are not so many impositions on them. So they come to us with ideas, the holes in their, in the story and their characters. And we discuss at length, like, who these people are and how to make it actually work with the people who are going to embody these characters. So like the mudslides, for instance, it became clear that Ben's character, that Jason's character would like a, like, like a milkshake, like drink. He's like childish, childlike, you know, so he'd want a sweet drink. And also we thought it's funny because it's a difficult drink for a bartender to make. So it's like a pain, you know, it's a pain in the behind, so it just seemed like it. It's a lovely joke, but it also fits his character. So those kinds of things really tickle me. And my co writer, Chris, we're talking.
- [09:19]
Jason Schwartzman
With Jason Schwartzman and Carol Kane alongside Nathan Silver about their new film, between the Temples. Let's play a clip. In this scene, Ben is facilitating a class for students planning their bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs. And he receives a surprise visit from Carla, his old music teacher.
- [09:35]
Alison Stewart
Okay, so to be a good Jew, you've got to really resp. Simon. Is he asleep? Would someone nudge him? Wake him up? Is he asleep? Let him sleep. I don't care. Hi, Mrs. O'Connor.
- [09:49]
Carol Kane
Hi, Carla.
- [09:50]
Alison Stewart
Please, Carla. Um, everyone, this is Carla. Say shalom, Carla.
- [09:59]
Jason Schwartzman
Shalom, Carla. Shalom, Carla.
- [10:00]
Carol Kane
Shalom, everybody.
- [10:02]
Alison Stewart
Carla was my music teacher when I was younger, so, yeah, if not for her, I might not even be standing here in front of you.
- [10:11]
Carol Kane
Carry on.
- [10:12]
Alison Stewart
Are you picking someone up?
- [10:14]
Carol Kane
No, just. I'm here for me.
- [10:15]
Alison Stewart
Okay.
- [10:16]
Carol Kane
This is a bat mitzvah class, right? I saw it on the website.
- [10:21]
Alison Stewart
B'nai mitzvah.
- [10:22]
Carol Kane
Hmm.
- [10:23]
Alison Stewart
Bar and bat mitzvah, boys and girls.
- [10:26]
Carol Kane
That is very modern.
- [10:30]
Jason Schwartzman
In the beginning, Jason, Ben is apprehensive about taking Carla on as a student. He actually flees her. He thinks he flees, or he can try. Why is he so apprehensive about this?
- [10:43]
Alison Stewart
Well, I think that because he is. I think that because he's having a crisis of his own in terms of, you know, she's at a place where she's wanting to find something new, and whatever is in her life is. Has come to some. Not an end, but it's come to a place where it needs a change. And I think that my character is sort of in a similar spot, but in kind of like an opposite feeling spot. And my character, honestly, I think, is not sure that he wants to teach this stuff and wants to help. Like, you know, I don't think that he want. He's not sure he wants to help at all with anybody. And I think that he doesn't understand. It's hard almost for him to endorse. To endorse it when he's sort of having such a crisis himself and is in such a feeling, such a sense of loss and confusion about his own life that it's just. He's in no place really, just to be the person he thinks to be helping someone. You know, he doesn't really feel like he can help himself.
- [11:58]
Carol Kane
No, exactly. Which is. It's. It's just a classic, classic major depression.
- [12:04]
Alison Stewart
Yeah.
- [12:05]
Carol Kane
Which is, I guess, sparked by grief, but then it just overwhelms every aspect I totally of Ben's life. So that, you know, you don't want to do nothing, especially not this.
- [12:23]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. You don't want to really be in service of anything.
- [12:28]
Jason Schwartzman
Nathan, when you're describing that scene, as a writer, what was your goal?
- [12:33]
Carol Kane
I'm sorry, I'm just wanting to point out that our director. As we're talking about major depression and grief, our director is chuckling.
- [12:47]
Nathan Silver
Well, it's, you know, I think that I love that Carol's character goes in there and tries to loosen up this extraordinarily depressed person. It's like that classic screwball setup. And that's what really, you know, that's what I thought they would play so well off each other. And it was immediately apparent from the first zoom with them together that, like, they were this great madcap pair, you.
- [13:17]
Jason Schwartzman
Know, what's that like for you as a. As a writer and a director? Because the writer finishes and then the director steps in.
- [13:26]
Nathan Silver
Well, you know, I work with my co writer, you know, one of my primary collaborators, Chris Wells, and we. We talk everything through, and then we bring on more people, the actors, the crew, and it just starts to take on a life of its own. So the directing is just overseeing that. I do justice to the initial ideas, you know, and here it was about how to have hope in this hopeless world, to have faith in the absurd, to, like, somehow, you know, how do you shake someone out of their despair? And I think that it's, you know, Carla offers that kind of spirit. And we also. We shot this on film. We wanted that to reflect the kind of analog quality that Carla's character brings to Ben. Because HD is so flat and cold. We wanted it to have, like, this. This warm, inviting sense to it, even if it is about something kind of despairing.
- [14:31]
Jason Schwartzman
Carol, Carla will not take no for an answer from Ben. Why won't you just know?
- [14:38]
Carol Kane
Because I've waited so long to fulfill this hope and dream and it's way too late to start but this is the only time that I can start and it's now or never and I have to do it. There's something in me that needs this dream to come true and so I can't take no I can't take no A little later is going to be even more too late it's already too late so I can't take no we.
- [15:18]
Jason Schwartzman
Just got a text and someone wants to know, is the title also A statement, a pun on the power of the mind.
- [15:25]
Nathan Silver
Yeah. It was a title that Chris had kicking around his between his temples for a while where he thought it would be that this would be the perfect fit for it. So a movie about Judaism, you have the, you know, the synagogues, the temples and then also the temples on the head and someone for a character who's too much in his own head. Ben we thought it was perfectly that it was very fitting.
- [15:50]
Jason Schwartzman
We'll have more of my conversation about the film between the Temples with actor Jason Schwartzman and Carol Kane as well as co writer and director Nathan Silver. We'll have more in just a minute.
- [15:59]
Cindy Silver
This is all WNYC Studios is supported by GiveWell. When you make a big purchase, say a car or a new mattress, how do you make sure that you're making the right choice? GiveWell provides an independent resource for a different kind of purchase, a donation. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate. First time using GiveWell. When you go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter WNYC at checkout, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds.
- [16:33]
Nathan Silver
Last this week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, we'll talk about mass deportation, the rhetoric and the reality. We get very obsessed with what the numbers might be. You know, those numbers are a little bit of a distraction. It's almost immaterial whether or not they reach a million. If they are able to do what they want to do, they're going to cause a lot of suffering and a lot of upheaval. Jonathan Blitzer joins me next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:13]
Jason Schwartzman
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart. Let's get back into my conversation about the new film between the Temples. It's about a cantor who loses his wife and then finds the grief has made him lose his voice until it connects with a former teacher named Carla who asked him to help her get bat mitzvahed. We were hearing from actors Jason Schwartzman and Carol Kane, who play cantor Ben Gottlieb and Carla respectively, as well as director and co screenwriter Nathan Silver. And to start off this portion of the conversation, I asked Jason about his character Ben and how his grief shows up in his professional role as a cantor.
- [17:50]
Alison Stewart
Well, yeah, he's, it's, it's stopped him from singing. He's had some type of a, some, something has happened with his mind and his body and his heart. And I think since when the movie opens, he's just returning from a sabbatical, which I guess is another way of just saying he's been on leave. Grief leave, Grief leave. He's been on grief, and he. And still he can't sing when the movie begins. He just. Just cannot do it. And he's sort of stuck in. He's in the past, and he's not really in the past or really in the present or really in the future. And one. And for instance, like his wife, who's a. She was a novelist, she's left him, as you know, I think it's 700 and something. Voicemails, which he's kept all of. And he listens to them often. So I think that even just that little detail is just like he can't really be in the present moment without somehow incorporating her into it. And. Yeah. So he really just, you know, has. Has had a hard time finding a life without her.
- [19:17]
Jason Schwartzman
How does Carla show up for Ben in his grief? What do you think, Carol?
- [19:24]
Carol Kane
Oh, what do I think? I think that I am just trying to live my life in the present. I think that I can't afford to hold on to my past because it hasn't been what I dreamt of. And I think when I see Ben and his grief, I just. I can't take that for him. I remember him when he was little. Little Benny. And I remember his smile, and I remember his joy. And I just can't stand for him to be so changed and so melancholy when I know that there's more of his life to live and that all our days are numbered, you know, so he better snap out of it, is what I think, you know, and get involved in today, you know, and today involves me. So you could say that's a selfish wish also. I just don't want to see that melancholy pull a curtain over the face of little Benny who had so much joy.
- [20:57]
Jason Schwartzman
Well, you remember. You have a memory of him of being happy. You have a memory of him being a joyful kid.
- [21:04]
Carol Kane
Very joyful. Little Benny that smiles. Yeah.
- [21:08]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. And also your character, like your inner child, your character is. Has, like. More like. As I'm just thinking about it now, like little. Like it's little Benny and little Carla beating, in a way. It's kind of thinking about it now, but it's like.
- [21:29]
Carol Kane
Because I. I'm not acting in a way that some people would consider properly grown, right? I'm. I'm. I' More acting like a kid in that I'm Living in the press.
- [21:44]
Alison Stewart
Exactly.
- [21:45]
Carol Kane
And. And. And I. Yeah. And so it's like little Benny and little Carla. That's true.
- [21:52]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. It's like, can. Can the little. Like, you know, in movies and they say, can someone calls up to the house, can he come out to play?
- [22:01]
Carol Kane
Yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying to you. And somehow, little by little, you are unable to resist the call.
- [22:11]
Alison Stewart
Right. Who could.
- [22:13]
Jason Schwartzman
Who could, really? Except your parents. Except your moms. Your moms have a different story. They really want to see him get together with a girl. One particular girl. But let's play the scene from early in the movie. He's having dinner with his moms, and they're encouraging to see a. See a doctor, sort of. Let's take a listen.
- [22:34]
Carol Kane
Benjamin, your mother and I have been talking, and we know that things have been difficult, but it's been some time, and we really think that you need to start seeing a doctor.
- [22:55]
Nathan Silver
Okay.
- [22:59]
Alison Stewart
Um. Well, I mean, I'm definitely open to the idea. You are? No, it's. It's something I've been thinking about, too.
- [23:18]
Jason Schwartzman
Benjamin, I'm so pleased to hear this.
- [23:21]
Alison Stewart
I mean, I'm definitely open to.
- [23:23]
Carol Kane
And there she is.
- [23:24]
Jason Schwartzman
Yes.
- [23:24]
Nathan Silver
Okay, cool.
- [23:29]
Jason Schwartzman
Oh, why is. Why is Ben responding the way he is? He's like, yeah, sure, sure, sure. And then this date shows up.
- [23:36]
Alison Stewart
I know. You know, Excuse me. One thing, too, is as I'm hearing this stuff, it's funny because this is the first time I ever worked. And, Carol, I don't know if you can, but, like, typically a note from a director is faster. Like, say the line. You know, say it faster.
- [24:01]
Carol Kane
Funnier.
- [24:02]
Alison Stewart
And, Nate, this is the first time in my life someone's ever said slower. Right. And it. And it was constantly, like, Nathan was constantly saying slower. He's much slower. He walks more slowly. He talks much more slowly. Way slower. Way slower. And even just listening to it now, it's, like, painfully long. Yeah. It's, like, hard to listen to how slow it is. But it was just so funny because. Just so not used to that. That tempo, you know what I mean? It's, like, really unusual.
- [24:35]
Carol Kane
So vivid, though.
- [24:36]
Alison Stewart
So vivid. Oh, my gosh.
- [24:38]
Carol Kane
In the silence.
- [24:40]
Alison Stewart
Absolutely.
- [24:41]
Nathan Silver
What's cool, though, is that Jason resisted that. And so they're. Each take had a different tempo. And thank God he did that because John McGarry, our editor, like, utilized the variations on, like, his state of depression and made it, like, much more complex than I had initially imagined and turned it into. He gave it, you know. You know, Jason brought Life to it in this way. And John pulled that out in the cut and I was just like. Because the movie, for all. It's like, for its sub, for all the depressing subject matter or whatever, it's. It's filled with an exuberant air. Like the camera work and the editing, it's like jagged and it's. And like I said, it has like this warmth to it. So I feel like that's kind of. I wanted that to contrast the state that bends in. That there's. That there is some sense that there's another side to life than what he's feeling at the moment.
- [25:37]
Alison Stewart
The movie moves fast.
- [25:39]
Carol Kane
Yes, very fast.
- [25:40]
Jason Schwartzman
Family gets in the way of Ben and Carla's relationship. Her son thinks it's weird. He's not a nice guy, in my opinion. He thinks his mom's being manipulated. And then there's this big dinner. I don't wanna give too much away, but everything kind of gets aired out or at least brought to the surface. Nathan, how long did it take you to get that scene right?
- [26:01]
Nathan Silver
Well, we shot it over the course of two nights. Two nights with two cameras. We shot basically three versions of the scene. The actors, we had no idea, like, no one had any idea which version we were going to use. Each actor was fighting for their character and there were certain contradictions as to what, like, people thought, where people thought the scene should go. So John, our editor, had his work cut out for him, but what he realized is that he just needed to embrace the three scenes we shot and, like, structure. Give it like a three act structure. And that's when it all clicked into place. And it was. There's a sequence in there that Jason actually came up with on the spot, which I'm not going to give away, but was just like. It works so beautifully and speaks so much to his. To Ben's character and to, like, what's happening in front of him. I have no idea how he came up with that, but that's like working with Jason and Carol. They were just always like. It's. They. They bounce ideas off each other and off of just the whole film set. And it creates this, like, energy that, you know, you can. You can't simply write. It comes out of the pages, sure, but it's like. Then it's in front of you and it's much greater than you could ever have imagined.
- [27:22]
Jason Schwartzman
Carol, there's so much of the movie. It sounds like it's very serious, but it's very, very funny and it has real heart to it. How did you think about the balance between the humor and the awkwardness.
- [27:37]
Carol Kane
Oh, I didn't think about that. I couldn't think about that. I just had to try and be me. Me. Carla, I can't think about. That's more of a directorial, probably, notion of the balance. And I just. Or let's just say I couldn't think about it. My brain between my temples is not that big. But, you know, what I wanted to say, briefly, is so unusual as a director in a million different ways, but one way that you just heard is that he's so generous and he does not need to take full credit for everything, which is, you know, sort of sometimes built into the director's psyche. I would say my movie, I did this. And Nathan is always, you know, in the best possible way, passing the buck.
- [28:45]
Jason Schwartzman
That's a lovely compliment.
- [28:46]
Carol Kane
In the best, best possible way.
- [28:49]
Jason Schwartzman
Well, Nathan, let me ask you about the balancing between the humor and the awkwardness or the discomfort.
- [28:57]
Nathan Silver
You know, I think that's just inherent in the subject matter. And, like, we really want. Like, Chris and I, when we were working through the treatment, we wanted there to be. We wanted to, like, cram in every Jewish joke we could think of and try and, like, flip them on, like, take these jokes and figure out what we could do with them, how we could, like, pervert them, shift them, change them. And, you know, then also, at the same time, we were being very mindful of, like, grounding these characters and figuring out who they were. So it's. It's basically like, how can we ground the comedy in the characters? And that was the ideal, you know, scenario for us. And we just tried to always look. That was our. Our goal.
- [29:42]
Jason Schwartzman
People go see the film, they go out, they have coffee, they have a drink. What do you hope they talk about?
- [29:49]
Alison Stewart
Great question. I. I hope that they talk about that. This is a silly thing maybe to say. My choice of words is. I. I don't love the words that I'm using. Too late. But that. That there's always time to try new things and that it's. Your life is yours to get it how you want it, and that you should just try to do that at all times. Do you know what I mean? In whatever little way you. That's what I took from the movie, just myself, was just like, you can know. You can. You can walk there how you'd like to walk there. You could. You can eat what you would like to eat. You can try this. Something new. That's my takeaway. And I think that the. What I really take away from it is just that, like, the most important thing is it's okay to ask questions and it's okay to be satisfied with the answer being another question.
- [31:02]
Jason Schwartzman
That was my conversation with actors Jason Schwartzman and Carol Cain, alongside co writer and director Nathan Silver. The film is called between the Temples, and Carole Cain has been nominated for a Best Supporting Performance for her role as Carla at next year's Independent Spirit Awards.
- [31:21]
Alison Stewart
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- [31:24]
Nathan Silver
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- [31:27]
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Nathan Silver
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Alison Stewart
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- [31:52]
Cindy Silver
Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody award and a DuPont Columbia Award, among others. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.