← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Chef Roy Choi on How to Eat Healthier Without Sacrificing Flavor
00:28:55
Chef Roy Choi discusses his latest cookbook, his first in over a decade.
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- [00:00]
Alison Stewart
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
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Roy Choi
Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
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Alison Stewart
This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I am really grateful you are here. I will see some of you tomorrow in person in the WNYC Green Space. I'll be joined with some of the cast and creative team behind the Broadway musical Hell's Kitchen. They will perform live and talk about how they brought Alicia Keys music to life on stage. There are a few free tickets left. Head to wnyc.org events and if you can't join us in person. Check out our live stream for more information. Again, that's wnyc.org eventshell kitchen live in the Green Space now let's get this show started with the choice of cooking. Chef Roy Choi has come a long way since the early days of Kogi BBQ Truck. At the time, his popular Korean food freezing truck went viral on social media, turning Choi into a local LA celebrity. Soon, director Jon Favreau asked Choi to make the food to be featured in his movie. Chef Choi has won James Beard Awards. He wrote a best selling cookbook and memoir. He was named to Time Magazine's lists of 100 most influential people in the world. He opened restaurants. Now, over a decade after his initial success, Choi has written a new cookbook, but this one with the hindsight of an og. And with that a new distinction comes with a new outlook on food. Roy couldn't continue with the same grinding intensity, eating whatever he wants without hesitation. As he says in the book, rather than pretending your cravings don't exist, I'm just going to ask you to treat them right. It's called the Choy of Flavor Packed Rule Breaking Recipes for a Delicious Life. It is out tomorrow. Roy Choy has two events in our area this week, starting tonight in Ridgewood, New Jersey at Bookends Bookstore at 6pm and tomorrow in New York at George's Cafe with you and me books at 7pm we are proud that he is in studio with me right now. Hi Roy.
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Roy Choi
Oh hi Alison. Wow, this is an honor to be here.
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Alison Stewart
So exciting to have you. You know you wrote, you said you wanted to write a healthy cooking cookbook, but you really wanted to reframe what a healthy cookbook is. What did that mean?
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Roy Choi
Well, I believe that it's the first step to healthy. So I use myself as kind of the guinea pig in a sense. And all the people I grew up with in the neighborhoods that I'm from, sometimes health and wellness, the industry of that doesn't speak to us, but the industry of fast food and processed food and chips and snacks and tobacco and alcohol speak to us, you know, and so it's like, all right, so if we wanted to get in yoga pants and if we wanted to do Pilates and, and, well, in aromatherapy, like, what is our first step towards that? And this also relates to the cook community as well, where we're cooking really delicious, nutritious food all day, but then we torture ourselves soon as we clock out and we eat fast food and Doritos and pints of ice cream. So it was like, okay, how do I make a healthy cookbook for people that don't know how to be healthy or don't know what the first step is and are afraid to be shamed about the first step? And so that's what this book is kind of all about.
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Unnamed Co-Host
In your book, you have your guiding lights, right? It's really cool. Like, it's like rainbow bright colored and it's very exciting. It's this list of things that you want people to consider, you want yourself to consider. First of all, how did you come to your list of guiding lights?
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Roy Choi
Can you name a couple of them?
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Unnamed Co-Host
Sure.
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Roy Choi
I'm sorry, I forgot. My guiding lights.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Love for yourself, Kindness in your heart, Generosity of spirit and giving. Flavor for days. Fun, vibrancy and vibes.
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Alison Stewart
Health is wealth.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Realness of intention, Care of earth, Technique and details. Happiness is feeding.
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Roy Choi
Oh, you're making me cry. Yeah, that's it. That's my mantra. I think it comes with a little bit of age, comes with a little bit of life and experience. The older you get, the deeper, hopefully you can search for love and empathy and kindness in this world. You know, I'm looking at a sign right behind you that says, work hard and be nice to people.
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Unnamed Co-Host
My mantra.
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Roy Choi
That's it, man. We're the same. And that's, I think, related to cooking and feeding and nourishing. If you can find that place within yourself and spread that love, then others can receive it and continue to spread it. You know, hate and negativity is so easy to spread. You know, it's like a spill of of life. But to spread generosity and love and kindness, it takes Sometimes effort, which is weird, it's counterintuitive, but that's what that cooking is all about. And when you put that into food, you know, food is not something that's just completely linear. I don't think so. It's like it takes all of your senses. It takes things outside of your being as well, spiritual. And food tastes better that way. And the book is trying to prove.
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Unnamed Co-Host
That you take responsibility for some of your previous behavior. You describe yourself as a yeller at one point in your career, and you wanted to apologize to anyone who felt your wrath between around 2008, 2010. Why did you want to be open about that?
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Roy Choi
Well, when you mentioned the Hell's Kitchen, I thought you were talking about the Hell's Kitchen cooking. But a lot of chefs are yellers in the beginning. Because the thing about when you're coming up as a young chef, we don't mean to be mean, to be honest. And none of it crosses a line of violence or anything like that. It's just that, going back to the spiritual nature of food, there is a moment in time that food exists. You know, a sauce, when it hits a plate or when you cook something, or when you've put all your energy into it and it's sitting there in the atmosphere, and then you, as the cook or the chef, is the only one that can see it dying, in a sense. And so you're literally out there trying to catch it from a falling window, and you don't understand why anyone else can't see that. And so that's where it came from. And in the early days of Kogi, Kogi was a truck that harnessed social media in its very, very early infancy. And it was at a time where I had lost everything, and this was all that left. And we had created this food that kind of a no substitution type food. And it was kind of funny the way I was being mean at that time and yelling. Like, people would ask for substitutions, and I would say, nope. And I would take the food out of their hand, I would scold them, and then I would close the door on the truck and then peel out. But that. But looking back, you know, that wasn't nice. So I really worked on it.
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Alison Stewart
It did seem, though you're describing it, you were trying to protect your food.
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Roy Choi
Yeah, I was protecting the food in.
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Alison Stewart
The best way, but you were trying to protect something and the culture.
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Roy Choi
And it was very hip hop. You know, it was like, this is all we got. You know, this is who we are. This is everything in the moment and you know, like, take it or leave it, you know, that was it. And it was the middle of the night too. So it was kind of like we started going out at midnight, you know. So I just felt like, you know, we're not here to take suggestions, you know, like it's 2:00am you know, we're not here to take suggestions. Like this is what it is, you know.
- [08:26]
Alison Stewart
My guest is Roy Choi, Chef Roy Choi. We're speaking about his new cookbook, the Choy of Cooking Flavor Packed Rule Breaking Recipes for a Delicious Life. You also write honestly about your years where you're. You describe it as eating your feelings. There were demons associated with food, your weight. It would go up and down. When you look back on it now that you've had time to think about it, why did you approach food and eating this way?
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Roy Choi
I think it was definitely my coping mechanism for a lot of things. I have a very addictive personality, very compulsive personality. But I think also I had a superpower to absorb it. Not only could I, not only did I have the addictiveness and that part of myself, but if your body can't take it, that's another thing. But the problem I had was I had the addictive nature, but then my body could handle it. And so what I mean by that is like eating whole trays of Stouffer's lasagna, not a part of it, the whole tray. Then going into a whole half gallon of ice cream and then going into a whole bag of Flamin Hot Cheeto puffs.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, you must not have felt good.
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Roy Choi
Yeah. You know, and that's in one sitting. And, and that's all done in private, you know, and the, and then the problem with me is that my body, even though it grew, it didn't grow too much. So I, I could kind of pull it off, you know, and. But I was, I was dying on the inside.
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Alison Stewart
So when did it become clear to you that you couldn't continue that way?
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Roy Choi
When I started this book. So I write in the beginning of the book that this book, this book actually started, funny enough as a keto book because growing up in an immigrant household and then moving into kitchens, I had never really experienced the diet trend of the world. And so I never even knew about. Because when you grow up in an Asian household, there's no word diet. You eat what's given to you. And, and so. But at the Kogi truck one day, right at the pandemic, actually the beginning of the pandemic, someone ordered A whole bunch of food. I considered this person an angel in my life because they ordered all this food, but no tortilla and none of this other stuff. And I was like, that's weird. You know, and it wasn't really positioned like a burrito bowl format. It was like, I just don't want that. I just asked him. Usually I don't ask questions, but I asked him, you know, why'd you order it like that? And he's like, yo, I'm on keto, bro. That's what he told me. I was like, what's keto? And he's like, yo, it's so easy, man. It's a life changer. And then I was like, that sounds kind of different. And he's like, nah, man. All you got to do is not eat this and not eat that, but you could eat everything else, bro. And I was like, okay. And then. So then I went down that rabbit hole, and it really changed everything. But then when we started, we pitched this book, and then when we got to writing it, we realized it was much more than that. And our editor, Jen, really helped us with that. Just, like, it started to move into my philosophy of cooking and. And then also looking into all the demons of it and how I could restructure the cravings and make it relate to people, but then not kill them.
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Unnamed Co-Host
One thing that's interesting is it really meets people where they are at the moment when they got this book, right? From couch potatoes to Namaste warriors. Why did you. That's hard to write a cookbook to appeal to a large swath of the audience. How did you think about it?
- [11:59]
Roy Choi
I think that's part of my nature being a street cook, you know, because you have to be fluid and cook for everybody. I'm like a New York subway, you know, in a personified, you know, like, you have to be there for everybody. And I think the way that we wrote the book and the only way we could do it is make it like a multiverse. It had to be bursting in time continuums in all different directions. So it was like a choose your own adventure. So you have the way the book set up is you have the recipes, but then you can shoot in different directions based on where you are. And then that takes you. You skip over from, like page 14 to page 87, and then it takes you, and then just add this or that, or if you're here and you've already are drinking green juices, then shoot over to page 63, and then there's that. But Then there's, it's like, like the recipe is like, well, if you're still eating Stouffer's lasagna ice cream and chips, then start here. So that's kind of how it works for us.
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Unnamed Co-Host
The subtitle of the book says, flavor Packed Rule Breaking Recipes for a Delicious Life.
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Roy Choi
Yeah.
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Unnamed Co-Host
What do you like about breaking certain rules?
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Roy Choi
Well, that's everything that I do. I think a part of it comes from the heritage of my life, you know, like we're, you know, again, we're immigrants. So we come to, we come to this country not knowing the rules one and then having to break them in order to survive, you know, and, you know, I mean, from the Oscar Sean Bakers, all in the news. But he had a great quote, the filmmaker of like, you can break the rules, but just don't break the law. You know, like when he brought the camera into Disney World at the end of the Florida project, you know, they asked him like, you know, yeah, why did you do that? Or how could you do that? And that was his quote from that. And I think that's a big part of it. And then, and I think that the rules are, I think rules are always meant to be challenged. You know, laws, amendments, you know, all these things, they're meant to be challenged and because time moves on and that's the way that I approach cooking, you know.
- [14:13]
Unnamed Co-Host
My guest is Chef Roy Choi. We're speaking about his new cookbook, the Choi of Cooking, Flavor Packed Rule Breaking Recipes for a Delicious Life. After the break, we'll get into some recipes. This is all of it.
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Alison Stewart
WNYC Studios is supported by Articulated, a podcast from the Smithsonian's Archives of American Art. This season, catch up with four trailblazing artists who have gone their own ways to create and chronicle community. From Anita Field's Osage ceramics and Leo Tanguma's Chicano murals to Lenore Chin's communal documentation and Pat Steer's bold paintings, you'll hear from legends who continue to push the limits of art. Available wherever you get your podcasts.
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Roy Choi
What?
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Alison Stewart
Oh, my goodness.
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Roy Choi
Wow. Oh, my God.
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Alison Stewart
Wow. Radiolab.
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Roy Choi
Whoa.
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Alison Stewart
Adventures on the Edge of what We Think We Know. You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In studio with me is Chef Roy Choi. We're speaking about his new cookbook, the Choy of Cooking. Flavor Packed Rule Breaking Recipes for a Delicious Life. Roy has an event tonight at Ridgewood, New Jersey at Bookend's Bookstore at 6pm and tomorrow in New York at Georgie's Cafe with you and me books. That is at 7pm let's dive into some recipes. You describe kimchi as a verb. You kimchi everything.
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Roy Choi
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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Alison Stewart
What's a good example of something you Kimchi?
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Roy Choi
Oh, you could kimchi anything. We could kimchi each other. Yeah. Kimchi is. Yeah, we could put it in the bathtub. We could do whatever you want with kimchi. You could put it in your coffee, you could put it on your fruit. You could make traditional kimchi. You could put it in a sauce. You could do anything with kimchi. You know, again, you could put it behind your ears. It could be your cologne. It just. Kimchi is a. It is a verb.
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Alison Stewart
You know, there's a recipe in here that is about stir fried pea shoots. And you tell a story and it starts with this dish was raised by wolves and how your parents used to say sometimes you ate stuff. Like a dog would eat that, that way. A dog would eat that a certain way. And you said, so what?
- [16:58]
Roy Choi
Yeah. Oh, that recipe. Because what I meant by that is that it. It broke rules and traditions. And I would, I would mix things together, like a lot of. A lot of times in Asian cuisine, like making it too saucy or pouring. Putting your rice into the. The soup bowl or adding the juice from the soup into the stir fry. You know, like, I would make basically like a leftover stew of food. And in many cases in Asian cuisine, that's looked down upon because that's the food that you pour in a bowl to give the dog. But you have to understand in English, it doesn't make sense. You have to listen to it in like Korean proverb, in Asian proverb context. So it, the way that they say it, it's referred to again like an idiom or like a proverb of like, only dogs eat like this, or this is the food of dogs. And then you're talking about thousands of years of folklore and stuff like that. So that's what that meant.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah. You beautifully explain it in the book.
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Roy Choi
Oh, thank you.
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Alison Stewart
Vegetables play a big role in this book. When did they start to play a big role in your life?
- [18:20]
Roy Choi
I think they've always been there. Again, through my mom's cooking. I didn't have normal traditional meals at home. There was always things fermenting. Breakfast was never cereal and pop Tarts. It was like, you know, all kinds of different banchans and stews and, you know, even like three different rices and noodles. And there was literally breakfast. And it was torturous. As a high school kid and Going through puberty because, like, all you wanted was cereal and Pop Tarts, but then there would be, like, 42 different dishes for breakfast. But they've always been there. And then growing into becoming a cook and working in fine dining, you're always cooking vegetables. But I don't know, they were always like, work or family to me. And you know how it is when things are so close to you, even, like, in love, like, the people so closest to you, sometimes you hurt the most. You know, you all know cousins, you know, extended family, like, you know, and so it's like that. And so I think that's how it was. To me, they were like cousins you don't want to talk to, you know.
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Alison Stewart
When you decide to invite them over for dinner.
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Roy Choi
Yeah. And then. So. But I think that they started to come into my life more recently. I think, honestly, everything with this book, I was living the life that I described up until I started reading this book or writing this book. And people close to me know the way that I eat. I eat like Joey Chestnut, you know, and it just wasn't sustainable anymore.
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Unnamed Co-Host
You have a salad, a chapter on salads called Salads for People who Don't Eat Salads. That was you?
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Roy Choi
Yeah, that was me. That's all my homies, man. That's all my friends. And so how do you get people to eat salads that don't eat salads? Because contrary to proper belief, and I know salads are very popular, but there ain't a lot of people out here working on the streets, you know, in construction and all that, that are like, yo, let's go have salads. You know, so. But salads can be delicious. So the. The first step is like, all right, how do you make a salad for someone that doesn't want any salads? So what we did was, okay, think of salad bar. So then if you think of salad bar, then that's one. The salad itself is different. But then you also have freedom. You could, like, the salad bar is a beautiful place. Like, when you're a kid, it's the only place for me, like, where you could shut out the world. They were like headphones. Like, the salad bar was like a headphone for me. You could shut out the world because no one could tell you what to do. Because. Because people think you're eating healthy. Like, you know, like, eat your veggies. Okay, cool. But then they don't know you're putting the cheddar cheese, you know, and you put in, like, you know, all the croutons, and you Put in all the sunflower seeds, you know, and all, you know, all that stuff. So, yeah, that's. That's the first step. And again, that's all about meeting you where you are. Not shaming you like that, at least, is better than eating a triple cheeseburger, you know, or whatever. And then you could, like, start to adjust and pare it down as you go.
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Unnamed Co-Host
My favorite you have in here. Chicken nugs.
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Roy Choi
Oh, the chicken nugs. Okay.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Not nuggets nugs.
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Roy Choi
Chicken nugs. Yeah. I'm from the west coast, you know, like, all we do is smoke weed. You know, they told me not to curse, but I could say weed, Right? All right.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Not on my list. What makes a good chicken nug?
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Roy Choi
Well, again, this is a beautiful example, because someone's gonna look at this and they're gonna challenge me and say, I thought you wrote a healthy cookbook, you know, but again, it's about the starting point and not the ending point. So the thing is, all right, everyone loves chicken nuggets, chicken tenders and fingers. This the most popular thing that people eat and on kids menus. But it's usually processed, right? It's usually processed and frozen, and it's usually bits of all different parts of the animal grinded together with who knows what. And so then it was like, all right, how do you get the sensation of that? But. But make it as natural as possible. So what we did was add some chef technique to it. We don't grind the meat. We don't add fillers. We use the whole leg, and we brine it. So brining is a really important technique. So that's one way you can get a lot of the transfer of vegetables and aromatics and fruits into it. And so the brine has all kinds of different vegetables and herbs and spices, and then that tenderizes it, and then you bread it and cook it fresh. And so, again, just baby steps. Baby, baby, baby, baby. Little steps to health.
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Alison Stewart
It's interesting because there's nothing on your list of ingredients that I can't pronounce.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Right.
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Roy Choi
Yeah. That's important too. I didn't think about that. Thank you for saying that.
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Unnamed Co-Host
It's true.
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Roy Choi
That's very important.
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Alison Stewart
I know what that is. I know what that is. Milk, flour, eggs, breadcrumbs. I understand what it means. As opposed to a whole bunch of suffixes. I don't know what it means.
- [23:19]
Roy Choi
Yes. And then what you do from there, and even at the first step, if you're using commoditized milk, eggs, and flour, then even the first Baby, baby, infant step is move over and use better milk, organic milk, organic flour, and then cage free eggs. And then you continue to move on and on and on from there.
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Unnamed Co-Host
You write in your book, your pantry is you. You are your pantry. On the side of your book, what are some staples you think everyone should.
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Alison Stewart
Have in their pantry?
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Roy Choi
Soy sauce, sesame oil, salt, pepper, spices, you know, bread crumbs. So we're talking just dry pantry. And you gotta have some cookies in there, I guess.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Let me ask you about sesame oil because it has a certain flavor to it as opposed to other oils.
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Roy Choi
Yeah. Did you catch that? We have a little essay in the book as well about sesame oil because one, it does have an essence to it because it's from the seed of the sesame seed and it's pressed at a really hot temperature and it goes rancid very quickly. So it's a very delicate, fragile oil. But a lot of people with sesame oil say you can't cook with it. So I don't know if you've all heard about the high temp oils and then the low temp oils, and you can't cook with extra virgin olive oil, first press. And sesame oil falls kind of into that category. So sesame oil is very similar to like first press, extra virgin olive oil. But the rule breaking, this is a great example of rule breaking. The rule breaking is that, screw that, you know, cook with it. Because I've been cooking with it like for the last 20 years, and I don't know, man, the food tastes bomb. So I don't know who came up with that, that idea that you can't cook with sesame oil at high heat. But I've been doing it and like, you know, so that's all a part of that.
- [25:21]
Unnamed Co-Host
One of the things in this book.
- [25:23]
Alison Stewart
You want to teach people how to.
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Unnamed Co-Host
Cook, not just to follow the recipes. What does it mean to you to learn to cook versus just following step one, step two, step three.
- [25:34]
Roy Choi
Well, that's all muscle memory and absorbing it. You know, I think a lot of cooking sometimes from recipes is that kind of 1, 2, 3, 4, linear way, start at point A, end at point zone. But I guess if you could imagine a play, right, an actor has to memorize the lines, but they have to absorb the lines and become that character. You wouldn't want to see a play where they're reading the script as if they were reading the words. I think if you could look at cooking a recipe like that, you know, you have to memorize the recipe like you would memorize a script but at some point, you have to step away from the script and become the character, and that's the only way to cook. Because then what happens is you become one with the food and one with the recipe, and then you start to become fluid, and you start to move differently, and then you can start to season differently, and then you can start to understand cooking, you know, because if you're just staying 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 on the thing, then you're just reading the script. Yeah. I hope that makes sense.
- [26:41]
Unnamed Co-Host
That made perfect sense. My guest is Roy Choi. His new book is called the Choy of Cooking. Such a good name, by the way.
- [26:49]
Roy Choi
I mean, I made fun of my name for so long growing up that finally I confronted it, because my name rhymes. Roy Choi, you know, but. But it is. But there's a lot of different, like, swirling meanings, you know, it is about joy, you know, and then the first cookbook I ever received in my life through my family was the Joy of Cooking. You know, my mom picked it up at a yard sale, and, you know, there's just all these, like, meaningful things that converged, you know, and then the name fit and. Yeah.
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Unnamed Co-Host
I have to ask you about Meghan Markle.
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Roy Choi
Oh, yeah, I was just on her show.
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Unnamed Co-Host
You were just on Meghan Markle's Love. Meghan, what do you remember about getting a phone call that you should, you know, you might want to report for duty at the Duchess of Sussex's show?
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Roy Choi
Well, she's LA girl, you know, so, like, from the beginning, I was never, like, I never had any negative, you know, perspective of her, because I know the areas that she grew up in, and I know the high school she went to, you know, and I know a lot of people. The two closest people on my team went to the same high school, you know, So I know what she's kind of. What She's. Where she comes from, you know, say, like, that's how we say it in la. I know. Where you from, dog? And so at that. So first off. First off, and then seeing how mistreated she was and. And the racism she endured and being also a minority in this country, you know, I. I empathized with her pain, you know, but when I got the call, I was traveling, and, like, it was weird because, like, I was. It's kind of like, actually, the call I got with you, Allison, like, I usually come up with barriers when someone wants some, like, calls me. I'm like, my first answer is always no. It's like, no in my head. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. But then something, usually in the situation that was meant to be, what come. Even though everything in my head is like, no, no, no, no, no, what comes out of my mouth is yes. So I got, I got it. And then I said yes, and then I got there. But the thing was, I didn't even think about it the whole time because I was traveling out of the country. Soon as I landed back in America the next morning I went to film in Santa Barbara. And so I was like, it was like a whirlwind and I showed up and it was like, it was like we knew each other since we were kids, you know, and I hope that came across in the, in the episode. But like, we just connected like from the jump and, and then I, I had, we cooked like so many recipes together because I'm better when, like, I don't have to fill it with small talk, you know, so it was like, because we had like nine different recipes, we just, again, from the jump, had to be busy. And that just like contributed to our relationship even more because we just jumped right in, you know.
- [29:51]
Unnamed Co-Host
The book is called the Choi of Flavor Packed Rule Breaking Recipes for a Delicious Life. Roy Choi has an event tonight at Ridgewood, New Jersey at Bookends Bookstore at 6pm and tomorrow in New York at Georgie's Cafe with you and Me books. That is at 7pm thank you so much for coming to the studio.
- [30:09]
Roy Choi
Oh man, I'm so happy I did this, you know, like you're a legend. Like that's all people told me, you know, And I'm a legend in la. So it was like, right? Yeah. East Coast, West Coast, East Coast, West Coast. It was meant to be, you know.
- [30:22]
Alison Stewart
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