Claire Messud's New Family Drama 'This Strange Eventful History'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Claire Messud’s New Family Drama 'This Strange Eventful History'

Host: Koosha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Claire Messud
Date: May 22, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed author Claire Messud, discussing her new novel This Strange Eventful History. The work is deeply inspired by Messud’s own family history, particularly her grandfather’s memoir. The conversation explores themes of family legacy, French colonialism in Algeria, generational trauma, and the complexity of identity across time and place. Messud and Navadar reflect on how personal and historical dramas intertwine in literature and life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins of the Novel

[03:20–04:10]

• Messud’s inspiration for the book stemmed from her grandfather’s 1928–1946 memoir. She read it only in 2017, sparking the novel’s development.
• She describes intermittent compulsion over the years to tackle this family story, indicating how the novel gestated over decades.

“I could answer it by saying, oh, 20 years ago or, oh, 10 years ago or, oh, five years ago…my grandfather wrote this memoir… I didn’t read it until 2017…” – Claire Messud [03:27]

2. Interpreting Family Through Fiction

[05:02–06:02]

• Messud notes that middle age gave her the perspective needed to see her relatives “not embroiled in the same way,” recognizing them simply as people.
• She reflects on the impact of reading letters from deceased relatives, allowing empathy beyond familial roles.

“If I step outside, they’re people, just people like you and me, striving, hoping, being disappointed.” – Claire Messud [05:36]

3. Researching Historical Moments

[06:19–07:10]

• Messud underscores the blending of fact and fiction: while the characters’ thoughts and actions are invented, the historical context is meticulously researched via both books and online resources.
• Example shared: discovering a 1953 French newsreel on drilling for oil in the Algerian desert via YouTube.

“There is, in fact, a newsreel that you can find on YouTube from 1953, a French newsreel about an oil dig in the Algerian desert.” – Claire Messud [06:56]

4. Understanding ‘Pied-Noirs’ and Settler Colonialism

[07:41–08:46]

• Messud explains the distinction between different colonial models, emphasizing that Algeria was a French settler colony and, administratively, a part of France until 1962.
• She contextualizes the tensions and traumas of the War of Independence (1954–62), traced through her family’s legacy.

“Algeria was a department of France. It was actually considered a department of France until it gained independence in 1962 after a war that began in 1954…” – Claire Messud [08:02]

5. Intergenerational Perspectives on Colonialism and Identity

[09:00–10:09]

• Messud highlights how the generational context shapes views: for the grandparents, colonialism is untroubled; for their children, especially post-WWII, it becomes a source of conflict.
• Characters Dolores and Francois represent divergent responses: escape versus nostalgia/bitterness.
• Chloe, a later generation, re-examines identity through a contemporary lens, even referencing Frantz Fanon.

“I wanted to try to capture…the way the same events are viewed differently depending on your moment in history and your cultural beliefs.” – Claire Messud [09:04]

6. Writing Across Place and Time

[10:30–11:14]

• Messud traveled to several relevant locations (Thessaloniki, Malta, Beirut), even if some didn’t make it into the novel. Some settings were reimagined using digital resources.

“There was a little traveling…I went to Thessaloniki…went to Malta…went to Beirut…some I had to make up. I did not get to Algiers.” – Claire Messud [10:50]

7. The Complexity of Assimilation

[11:20–12:19]

• Francois’ attempts to shed his French accent and history upon moving to Massachusetts reflect broader themes of reinvention and assimilation in postwar society.
• Messud portrays “the hopefulness and the amnesia” of mid-20th-century attitudes toward the past, and our current skepticism about escaping history.

“I think it’s something we’re a lot more skeptical about now, this idea that you can just shed your past like a skin.” – Claire Messud [12:12]

8. Structuring the Novel – The Power of Prime Numbers

[13:03–13:25]

• Navadar notes the novel’s structural use of prime numbers (seven decades, five and three points of view, twenty-three sections), which Messud confirms was a deliberate choice. Prime numbers – as “misfits” – reflect the misfit status of her characters.

“I designed the novel that way. You know, I…Yeah, it just made sense somehow.” – Claire Messud [13:25]

• Navadar draws a fascinating parallel to encryption: “We also use prime numbers to encrypt data online. It’s like prime numbers are holding secrets.” [13:32]

9. Defining Family Beyond Blood

[13:45–14:48]

• Messud resists a narrow definition of family, valuing chosen relationships as much as kinship. She shares a personal anecdote about college friends feeling like family.

“I think in an ideal state, family is love. Right. I mean, it’s also torture and anguish.” – Claire Messud [14:35]

10. Lessons Learned About Family Through Writing

[14:55–15:12]

• The act of writing this novel deepened Messud’s compassion and understanding of family: acceptance of flaws, mistakes, and the central role of love.

“I think that the spirit in which I wrote the novel…and that’s part of the midlife thing, is one of love and compassion. Right? Like that we’re all flawed and we all make terrible mistakes. And it’s okay, right? We’re doing our best.” – Claire Messud [14:55]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Middle Age and Perspective:
  “It’s something I couldn’t have done earlier in my life. Middle age has enabled me to sort of see clearly and understand.” – Claire Messud [05:11]

• On Generational Trauma:
  “For people born in the 30s…the post war moment…it was really, you couldn’t have an unconflicted relationship to colonialism.” – Claire Messud [09:13]

• On Family as Chosen Community:
  “I think in an ideal state, family is love. Right. I mean, it’s also torture and anguish.” – Claire Messud [14:35]

• On Order of Narrative Revelation:
  “The order in which you give out information affects everything.” – Claire Messud [12:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:20] Messud describes the origins of the novel rooted in her grandfather’s memoir.
• [04:10] Reading memoir details and the pivotal 1940 storyline.
• [05:11] The role of middle age and distance in writing empathetically about family.
• [09:00] The intergenerational impact of French colonialism in Algeria.
• [10:30] Researching places, both visited and imagined.
• [11:20] Francois’ experience with assimilation and reinvention in America.
• [13:03] Structural innovation in the novel using prime numbers.
• [13:45] On what truly defines a family beyond blood ties.
• [14:55] Lessons and wisdom gained from writing the novel.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a richly layered exploration of history, identity, and family, illuminated by Claire Messud’s own journeys through memory, research, and empathy. For those interested in how personal experience can elevate fiction into nuanced cultural commentary, this conversation with Messud is essential listening—and reading.

Transcript

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[Koosha Navadar]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. The latest novel from acclaimed writer Claire Massoud is drawn from her family's history, her grandfather's own memoir. It's titled the Strange Eventful History. The novel is a decades spanning drama that follows the Khasars, a family of French descent from colonial Algeria who find themselves spread across the globe in the aftermath of World War II. There's Patriarch Gaston, who is stationed in Greece. When the Germans take Paris, he sends his beloved wife Lucien, their son Francois and daughter Denise back to Algeria to be safe from the violence that's to come. As the decades pass, the Khazars spread across the globe and Francois builds a family of his own. Eventually, a granddaughter named Chloe becomes interested in her family's complex relationship with French colonialism and with a shocking secret at the foundation of this family tree. In a starred review, Kirkus says the novel is brilliant and heart wrenching. Massoud is one of contemporary literature's best.

[Claire Massoud]

Wow.

[Koosha Navadar]

Claire Messoud will be speaking tonight at 7 at the center for Fiction with Jennifer Egan. But first, I am so delighted to have her with me in studio. Claire, welcome to the show.

[Claire Massoud]

Thank you so much. Kusha. It's wonderful to be here.

[Koosha Navadar]

It's wonderful to have you. When did you know you really wanted to dive into your family's history with this novel?

[Claire Massoud]

You know, it's a funny question. I could answer it by saying, oh, 20 years ago or, oh, 10 years ago or, oh, five years ago, because they're were different sort of moments along the way. But all of those are true, I think. My grandfather wrote this memoir and I didn't for my sister and me. And it covers the years 1928, when my grandparents got married to 1946. I didn't read it until 2017, and then, you know, so after that, I had to figure out what parts of it I might use and not use and how to shape the story from there.

[Koosha Navadar]

When you were reading that memoir, was there a detail that really stood out to you or something that helped you shape the story?

[Claire Massoud]

Well, there are so many details, some of them really wonderful, but also gossipy. But I couldn't use them all. But I started, I think, for me to understand June 1940, which is the portion of the memoir that is sort of fictionalized in the novel, that, of course, hindsight is 2020 vision. But in 1940, 40. In June, my grandfather had sent his family back to Algeria. He was on his own in Greece. He heard de Gaulle on the radio saying, come on, everybody, Come and join the Free French. And he was choosing between wanting to find out where his family was and what seemed a sort of ethical but also weird choice. He didn't really know who this guy was. He didn't know much about what the call might mean, and he chose to try to find his family.

[Koosha Navadar]

What was it like for you, putting yourself in the shoes of so many different characters, having those characters be based on your real life?

[Claire Massoud]

I think it's something I couldn't have done earlier in my life. I really do feel it's something that middle age has enabled me to sort of see clearly and understand. Also reading their letters, you know, reading my grandfather's memoir documents from before I was born and being of an age now where I'm older than those people were when they wrote these letters, and just understanding, you know, aside from all the drama of being someone's kid and, you know, all that family nonsense that you're lumbered with if I step outside, that they're people, just people like you and Me, striving, hoping, being disappointed.

[Koosha Navadar]

You know, what is it about middle age that unlocks that? Cause you said you're older than some of the characters that you're writing about. Is that what it is? You can understand their full experience in life at that moment that they were writing? Or is it something different than that?

[Claire Massoud]

Well, I think it's also. I think of it as almost get a drone floating above, you know, that I'm not embroiled in the same way. They're also no longer living. My grandparents and parents are no longer living. And that may be part of it too.

[Ira Flatow]

Yeah, sure.

[Koosha Navadar]

The novel spans from World War II to the present day. What was the research process like? Did you feel like you were able to capture all these different time periods with accuracy through the research?

[Claire Massoud]

I hope so. I hope so. Some people have asked me, is it fiction or nonfiction? And of course, all characters are fictionalized. I'm making up people's thoughts. I'm making up what they're wearing and what they eat for dinner. But it is possible, thanks to the Internet as well as books, to research a fair amount about these historical moments. So, for example, there's a section that takes place in the Algerian desert, digging, drilling for oil. And there is, in fact, a newsreel that you can find on YouTube from 1953, a French newsreel about an oil dig in. In the Algerian desert.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah, it's wild that you can just, you know, have that so easily accessible to you. So versatile. It's wonderful. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Claire Massoud, the author of the novel this Strange, Eventful History. Want to point out again, she'll be speaking tonight at 7 at the center for Fiction with Jennifer Egan. I'd love to get into Algerian colonialism a little bit, which is a huge theme in this book. This side of your family are what are called pied noires, which, for those who aren't familiar with the history. Could you just explain what that means a little bit?

[Claire Massoud]

The French colonized Algeria in 1830. I think it was a dispute over the fact that they claimed the Algerians owed the money. They just really wanted to take the land. So off they went. And I think there's a distinction worth making. There are different sorts of colonialism. There's administrative colonialism, where the colonizing country has no intention of settling many, many people there. But there's settler colonialism, which is the United States and Canada and Australia and Algeria were. So it's as if saying, well, nobody really lives Here, let's just move on in. And Algeria was a department of France. It was actually considered a department of France until it gained independence in 1962 after a war that began in 1954. But 54 to 62 was the war of Independence. But there had been, even before that, in the forties, there had been uprisings and a movement for national independence.

[Koosha Navadar]

And the story deals so much with Francois and Denis, who are the children of the patriarch and the matriarch that we are introduced to in the story. How do you think this dynamic affects them first in the first section that you're going through and then throughout the rest of their lives?

[Claire Massoud]

Yeah. So one of the things I wanted to try to capture was the way the same events are viewed differently depending on your moment in history and your cultural beliefs. So for the grandparents generation, it's. It's not a fraught thing. They don't grow up feeling angst and distress about colonialism. But for people born in the 30s, which is the generation of Francois and Denise, in the post war moment, which was a moment of national liberations around the world, it was really. You couldn't have an unconflicted relationship to colonialism. And those two characters respond very differently. So Francois basically runs away to North America and begins a new life and tries to put that whole history behind him. And his sister cleaves to her parents and sort of remains in a sort of state of nostalgia and sorrow and I might say, even some bitterness, I think.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. And you see it ripple down through the next generation as well. Right. Because then we have Chloe, who has a different, even version of what identity means for her.

[Claire Massoud]

Right, Right. Absolutely. Absolute. And I think there's a moment. There's a moment in the novel which is a fictional moment, but where the Chloe character asks her grandfather, have you read Frantz Fanon? And her grandfather says, no, no, I haven't. Because that actually, I think is, you know, that's the reality. Right.

[Koosha Navadar]

You had mentioned Francois running off to Massachusetts in the story. The story takes place in so many different places. There's Greece, Massachusetts, Algeria, Australia. How did you immerse yourself in these locations? Was a lot traveling.

[Claire Massoud]

There was a little traveling. You know, it's based on family history, so a certain amount of it are places that I've been along the way or have lived. But. But I. But I did do some traveling. I had not. I went to Thessaloniki, which is. Which is the place in Greece. I, you know, I went. I went to Malta, even though it didn't end up in the. In the book, I went to Beirut over the past decade. I went a number of. Of places. I. And then some I had to make up. I did not get to Algiers.

[Koosha Navadar]

Oh, interesting. Yeah. YouTube. You just get. Look up. Yes, guided tours of YouTube.

[Claire Massoud]

Exactly.

[Koosha Navadar]

You know, when we meet Francois at Amherst College, he's already trying to shed his French accent and his friends call him Frank. What did you want to demonstrate about the act of assimilation for Francois character, specifically?

[Claire Massoud]

Well, I mean, I think, you know, there's. There's good and bad in everything. Right. And one of the things I was struck by reading both family correspondence and histories of the time, the post war moment was a really hopeful time, in part because the war had been so terrible. And everybody said, we're just going to put that behind us. We're just going to pack it away. So there was very much an idea that you could invent yourself, reinvent yourself, become someone different, become. It didn't matter if you were unseen. It didn't matter if your history wasn't known. You could just pick a new person. And I think that only worked out so well over time. And I think it's something we're a lot more skeptical about now, this idea that you can just shed your past like a skin.

[Koosha Navadar]

There's also this big secret at the heart of the story that I don't want to reveal here. But you also take time getting to it in the novel. How did you decide when and how to reveal that secret?

[Claire Massoud]

Well, I wanted it to come later in the narrative for a number of reasons. But. But when I'm teaching writing, I always say to my students that the order in which you give out information affects everything. And I always use the example of the first thing. Certainly I, as a kid knew about the Germans was World War II. And then when you learn about, I don't know, Beethoven, right. You're like, well, yes, because, look, we know who they are because of World War II. But if you knew Beethoven first, right. Or sausages first, right. Like, everything might look a little different.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. In an interview with Literary Hub, you point out the interesting use of numbers in your novel that I really want to point out. I thought it was cool. There are seven decades, five points of view, three points of view in almost all the sections and 23 sections altogether. Each of those are prime numbers. And you say they are misfit numbers because they're misfits. Was that on purpose or like me, do you just really like math? And you designed the novel that way?

[Claire Massoud]

I designed the novel that way. You know, I. Yeah, it just made sense somehow.

[Koosha Navadar]

I just love that. Cause I also have to point out, and stop me if you already know this, but I found that interesting because we also use prime numbers to encrypt data online. And it's literally how we encrypt our secrets. So it's like the prime numbers are holding secrets.

[Claire Massoud]

Oh, I didn't know that.

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[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. It's so cool, right? I nerded out when I read that link from you. And, you know, we're wrapping up here, but yesterday we had Jessica Lange, Celia Keenan Bolger and Jim Parsons on the show to talk about their new show, Mother Play, which looks at family and they're amusing about what exactly it means to be a family. And I wondered about your answer to that question after reading this novel. Is family just blood relation or is there something else that makes a family a family?

[Claire Massoud]

You know, family can be a blood relation and it doesn't have to be at all. I actually had the joy last night of having dinner with a bunch of friends from college, which is now a while ago. Even though, you know, Just a minute, just a minute.

[Koosha Navadar]

It's all how you frame it. Right.

[Claire Massoud]

And. And that felt like family. You know, I think those. That sense that you cannot see someone for 7 years and no time has passed, that the love is. I think in an ideal state, family is love. Right. I mean, it's also torture and anguish.

[Koosha Navadar]

In the last minute we have left. Is there anything that you feel like you better understand about family after having written this novel?

[Claire Massoud]

I do. I think that the spirit in which I wrote the novel, and that's part of the midlife thing, is one of love and compassion. Right. Like that we're all flawed and we all make terrible mistakes. And it's okay, right? We're doing our best. Everybody's doing their best.

[Koosha Navadar]

If you want to read the book, it's called this Strange Eventful History. The author, Claire Massoud, she'll be speaking tonight at 7 at the center for Fiction with Jennifer Egan. And Claire, thank you so much for coming by.

[Claire Massoud]

Thank you so much.

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[MultiCare Advertiser]

Ready?

[Claire Massoud]

Let's go.

[Ira Flatow]

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.