Criterion's 'Razzie' Collection and Your Favorite Worst Movies

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Criterion's 'Razzie' Collection and Your Favorite Worst Movies"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Kushan Avadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Clyde Foley (Video Editor, Criterion Channel)
Air Date: March 12, 2024

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Overview:

This episode delves into The Criterion Channel's surprising new film collection: "The Razzie Goes To," which celebrates winners and nominees of the infamous Golden Raspberry Awards (Razzies)—the annual anti-Oscars for the "worst" in film. Host Kushan Avadar and guest Clyde Foley embrace the best of bad cinema and invite listeners to share their favorite "so-bad-it's-good" movies, questioning what makes a movie "bad" or "good," and spotlighting cult classics that have outgrown their original infamy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why the Razzies Belong on the Criterion Channel

• Reasoning for the Collection

  • Counter-programming after awards season/Oscars
  • Films with reputations for being "bad" often become cult classics or get critical reassessment
  • Provides "a break from talking about award season contenders" (03:14, Clyde Foley)

  Quote:

  "I think the immediate answer is counter-programming...We needed such a break from talking about award season contenders." — Clyde Foley (03:19)

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2. Deep Dive: “Xanadu” and the Value of Flawed Films

• Xanadu (1980)

  • Infamously "so bad it launched the Razzies"
  • Features a "notorious reputation," but when re-watched, reveals unique pleasures: great ELO soundtrack, ambitious effects, and moments of inspiration alongside “clunky” acting.
  • Rejects the binary of "good" and "bad"—encourages nuanced engagement.

  Notable Quotes:

  "I watched this thing and I was fully expecting to hate it, and I did not. I found some very strange pleasures..." — Clyde Foley (04:15)
  "Art is meant to be absorbed. Art is also meant to be messy and complicated." — Clyde Foley (06:12)

• Listener Text:

  • "The film Xanadu is the worst movie with the best music soundtrack." (05:27)

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3. Programming the Razzie Collection

• Curation Priorities:

  • Highlight films "worthy of critical reappraisal" as well as ones "battered by critics."
  • Infamous and misunderstood films, not just objectively bad ones.
  • Perseverance of cult classics through layers of critical and audience response.

  Quote:

  "If I had to take a guess...there are films here that are worth reappraisal, that have been reappraised..." — Clyde Foley (07:50)

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4. Caller Favorites: A Tour Through “Bad Movie” Land

(08:33–11:51)

• “Frankenhooker” (1989) — cult classic, parallel with “Poor Things.” (08:43)

• “Grease 2” & “Staying Alive” — beloved, cheesy sequels with notorious musical numbers and implausible scenes. (09:45)

• “Barbarella” & “Zardoz” — campy sci-fi classics with over-the-top performances, become cult touchstones for different audiences. (10:47)

  Quote:

  "Barbarella pretty much is like the gay camp movie for the female male gaze...Zardoz...for the male gaze because you get Sean Connery...walking around in a loincloth." — John, caller (10:47)
  "Funny thing about Grease 2...is that it was directed by Pat Birch...the mother of Peter Becker, president of the Criterion Collection. So it's all a very small world." — Clyde Foley (11:23)

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5. Spotlight: “Showgirls” and Critical Reassessment

• “Showgirls” (1995)

  • Described as "both a delirious star is born satire and a terrifying vision of capitalism's corruption of the soul."
  • Film was "eviscerated upon release," now viewed as a misunderstood, camp masterpiece.
  • Paul Verhoeven was the first Razzie recipient to accept in person, embracing the notoriety. (14:25)

  Notable Quotes:

  “The pendulum has completely swung the other way...widely acknowledged for the masterpiece that it is.” — Clyde Foley (13:12)
  “Paul Verhoeven...[his] movies are misunderstood upon release or confused for the things that they're satirizing." — Clyde Foley (13:33)
  "I got seven of the worst awards. And I'm very happy because it was much better, much more fun, than reading the reviews in September." — Paul Verhoeven, accepting Razzie (14:27)

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6. Listener Picks: Sgt. Pepper, Jupiter Ascending, and More

(16:09–17:28)

• “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” (1978)

  • “It’s terrible. It’s great.” — Brian, caller (16:21)

• “Jupiter Ascending” (2015)

  • “...incredibly misguided and incredibly fun.” — Angeline, caller (16:44)

  Reaction:

  "I'd probably watch that. Peter Frampton, Bee Gees. Completely reviled. Misfire. Yeah, I'd probably watch that." — Clyde Foley (17:12)

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7. The Blair Witch Project: From Razzie Nominee to Genre Pioneer

• Shock at Razzie Nomination:
  • Despite being a cultural phenomena, “The Blair Witch Project” (1999) was nominated for Worst Picture and Heather Donahue won Worst Actress.
  • Foley reflects on the “blowback” and how time has justified its legacy through the found-footage horror subgenre. (17:49)

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8. An Ode to “Freddy Got Fingered”

• Why Discuss It?:
  • "Maybe the most transgressive studio film ever made."
  • "How did this get made? And it's pretty remarkable. I kind of love this movie." (19:08)
  • Roger Ebert famously called it "a vomitorium of a movie..." — Roger Ebert (20:03)
  • Foley’s provocative stance: "This is a good movie. It's transgressive, it's subversive, it's funny. Tom Green did it. Tom Green made a good film." (21:01)

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9. What Is a “Good” Movie?

• Clyde Foley’s Criteria:
  • Not perfection, but a sense of life and intent.
  • Judge a movie by what it sets out to do.
  • "You can't judge Stranger than Paradise for not being Lawrence of Arabia...What is a movie trying to do? And does it succeed at that thing?" — Foley (21:19–22:06)

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10. Celebrating “The Wicker Man”

• Nicolas Cage’s Meme-able Performance:
  • The infamous “Not the bees!” scene and viral YouTube compilations. (24:08)
  • Foley: "Nicolas Cage doing his crazy Nicolas Cage thing, in kind of a tough movie." (24:36)
  • Explores Cage's career arcs and how some movies become internet phenomena.

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11. The Razzie’s Future & Bad Movies in the Streaming Era

• On the Latest Razzie Winner (“Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey”):

  • Foley hasn’t seen it, wrestles with whether it fits Criterion’s ethos, leaves open the possibility for future reassessment (25:25).

• What Makes a Bad Horror Movie Enjoyable?:

  • Sometimes “distasteful” or “transgressive” can be virtues if well executed. (26:13)

• Is “bad film” important?

  • Foley: What matters is judging "films on their own merits," allowing for discovery beyond critical consensus (26:52).
  • Importance of skepticism toward labels of “bad”—many films, like “Showgirls” and “Blair Witch Project,” have been critically redeemed.

  Quote:

  "I think it's important to...look at something and then judging it on its own terms. There are many times when critics and audiences have gotten things wrong the first time around." — Clyde Foley (26:52)

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12. The Communal Joy of Bad Movies

• Listener Text: “The Warriors is the best worst movie...we are constantly referencing it...It has provided us a lifetime’s worth of humor.” (27:38)

• The Room: Avadar shares the joy of communal moviegoing and the shock and delight found in a midnight screening of Tommy Wiseau's cult film.

  • Foley: “I think there's always a communal aspect to movies, but...there's an aspect of everyone just sort of like, in shock and recognizing something is deeply strange at the same time.” (28:11)

  On the Value of Surprise:

  "To be, like, bludgeoned by mediocrity or to be surprised or be presented by something that I don't quite know what it is? I'll take the surprise any day." — Clyde Foley (28:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:19 | Clyde Foley | "We needed such a break from talking about award season contenders." | | 04:15 | Clyde Foley | "I watched...expecting to hate it, and I did not. I found some very strange pleasures." | | 06:12 | Clyde Foley | "Art is meant to be absorbed. Art is also meant to be messy and complicated." | | 13:12 | Clyde Foley | "Showgirls...widely acknowledged for the masterpiece that it is." | | 14:27 | Paul Verhoeven | "I got seven of the worst awards. ... Much more fun than reading the reviews..." | | 21:01 | Clyde Foley | "Tom Green did it. Tom Green made a good film." | | 26:52 | Clyde Foley | "It's important...to actually look at something and then judge it on its own terms."| | 28:45 | Clyde Foley | "I'll take the surprise any day." |

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Criterion & Razzie Collection rationale: 03:02–03:49
• Deep dive on “Xanadu”: 03:49–06:29
• Programming discussion & rules: 07:08–07:50
• Listener favorites & cult classics: 08:33–11:51
• Spotlight on “Showgirls” & Verhoeven: 11:51–14:45
• Listener calls: “Sgt. Pepper,” “Jupiter Ascending,” etc.: 16:08–17:28
• “Blair Witch Project” and its legacy: 17:28–18:55
• “Freddy Got Fingered”/Roger Ebert review: 18:55–20:30
• "Good" vs. "bad" movies: 21:16–22:06
• Nicolas Cage’s “Wicker Man” & meme culture: 22:41–24:36
• 2024 Razzie winner—”Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey”: 25:13–25:46
• Bad movies, horror, and subversive taste: 26:00–26:37
• Why bad film matters / Communal aspect: 26:52–28:11
• Surprise > Mediocrity: 28:36–28:59

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Tone and Takeaway

The conversation is playful, self-aware, and celebratory—never snarky. Both host and guest treat "bad" movies as valuable texts that can entertain, surprise, and shape culture, often becoming objects of shared joy or later critical acclaim. The episode encourages listeners to embrace their guilty pleasures, question conventional wisdom, and seek out the unexpected in popular culture.

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End:
For the full list of Razzie-celebrated movies, check The Criterion Channel’s March lineup.
Listeners are encouraged to continue sharing their favorite “worst” movies—because sometimes, loving the mess is loving the art.

Transcript

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[Clyde Foley]

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[Kushan Avadar]

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[Caller/Listener]

Listener supported WNYC studios.

[Kushan Avadar]

This is all of it. I'm Khushan Avadar, in for Alison Stewart. Since it started in the 80s, Criterion has become synonymous with the best in filmmaking, showcasing movies from all eras and from around the world. But this March, the folks at Criterion are switching things up and spotlighting something different. The worst in filmmaking gotta keep it fresh. Although for these movies, it might be rotten. The Criterion Channel's new collection, the Razzie Goes to, celebrates the Golden Raspberry. It's another film institution founded in the 1980s, which annually gives out awards like Worst Picture and Worst Actor to the most deserving or undeserving in cinema. Many of its dishonorees have become cult favorites like Xanadu and Showgirls, two of the films included in the March collection. And joining me now talk about their selections is Clyde Folly, video editor of the Criterion Channel and frequent flyer here on all of it. Clyde, welcome back.

[Clyde Foley]

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be back, listeners.

[Kushan Avadar]

Today we celebrate the best in bad filmmaking, and we want you to tell us what is your favorite worst film of all time. Do you love it in spite of its flaws or because of them? Maybe you think its flaws aren't flaws at all. We're here for it. Call us. Text us. 212-433-9692. That's two. One, two, four, three. Shout out your favorite worst movie. All right, Clyde, first question.

[Caller/Listener]

Why?

[Kushan Avadar]

Why do the Razzies belong on the Criterion Channel?

[Clyde Foley]

You know, that's a good question. I find myself asking this question. I find myself asking the question, why am I the guy they sent to talk about the Razzies? The an award for the worst films highlighting this series highlights some of the most disreputable films we've ever put on the Criterion channel. Some I love very much, some worthy of critical reappraisal, some have had critical reappraisal. So why do it? I don't know. I think the immediate answer is counter programming. I mean, we've been talking about the Oscars for how long? We needed such a break from talking about award season contenders. So that's why I'm here to talk about the likes of the Razzies films.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, let's start in reverse alphabetical order with Xanadu, the 1980 roller disco epic scored by ELO, starring Gene Kelly in one of his final film roles. According to the Hollywood Reporter, this movie was so bad, it launched the Razzies. Why is this an essential movie in Razzie's history, and what do you love about it?

[Clyde Foley]

Well, first of all, I'm gonna be honest that this was a new film to me. I didn't watch this film until last week when I was asked to come on the show. And I thought, well, I need to get my bearings on this series. And it's a film with a pretty notorious reputation. It's was pretty loathed upon release and has had some degree of reassessment. You know, I gotta tell you, I watched this thing and I was fully expecting to hate it, and I did not. I found some very strange pleasures within this film, not the least of which are the songs of eloquence. And I think it's worth discussing. I want to take a moment here and say it's perhaps helpful to not think of everything in terms of absolutes. I mean, like, I'll be the first person to admit that there's a large part of my brain that never stop being the teenager who thinks something sucks or it rules. And, you know, I think that there's a function for that, but it's not always the most useful thing. Now, in terms of a film like Xanadu, there's some clunkiness in this movie. There's some shaky acting. There's also incredible music. And we actually just got a text.

[Kushan Avadar]

Saying, the film Xanadu is the Worst movie with the best music soundtrack. Sorry to interrupt, people.

[Clyde Foley]

It's worth discussing here. It's one of those things where there are inspired moments. It also has optical effects by some of the best optical effects artists to ever do it. And it's. There's no. There's just. There's just. There's. There's stuff in there that makes. It's like we. It's not always helpful to say that this is just a terrible film. We don't need to discuss this. It's. I think we need to look at the complexities and nuances within something that is bad. There are also great things.

[Kushan Avadar]

And art is meant to be absorbed, right?

[Clyde Foley]

Art is meant to be absorbed. Art is also meant to be messy and complicated.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, let's listen to some of that beautiful messiness. Here is a clip from Xanadu.

[Caller/Listener]

A place where nobody dared to go the love that we came to know make.

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[Caller/Listener]

And now open your eyes and see what we have made is real we are in Xanadu we are for you.

[Kushan Avadar]

It'S worth pointing out that everyone in the studio started dancing immediately as this song came on. Some of these films won Best Picture, some won in other categories. Clyde, when you and your team were curating the list, what rules were you making for yourself, and what did you prioritize?

[Clyde Foley]

Well, you know, this is where, full disclosure, I did not program this series. I was just sort of sent out here as the representative for the company on this one. I would like to shout out to Aliza Ma, the channel programmer who does so much good work for the channel, and our many other colleagues who do so much. Kim Hendrickson, Curtis Choi, Hilary Weston, Peter Becker. There's a lot of firepower behind the Criterion Channel. But, no, it was one of those things where I'm looking at the series and I'm trying to make sense of this lineup. And if I had to take a guess as to what the idea behind programming, I think that there are films here that have. Are worth reappraisal, that have been reappraised. There are films that were absolutely battered by audiences and critics upon release, and those films are certainly worth discussing. I also think this includes some of the most infamous films that have ever received Razzie Awards. So I believe the collection is a combination of those things.

[Kushan Avadar]

We've gotten a lot of calls coming in. Let's start hearing from some folks. We've got Acacia in Greenpoint. Hi, Acacia. Am I pronouncing that correctly?

[Caller/Listener]

Yeah, that's right. So I wanted to Call. I love bad movies. I especially have a fondness for like 80s 90s science horror movies like Reanimator, They Live. And one of my all time favorites is Frankenhooker. And I had recently watched Poor Things and I was like, wait a second, this is Frankenhooker. And I rewatched Frankenhooker and I was like, that's crazy. How come no one's talking about this? So I think that is a really great classic, hilarious movie to watch and especially if people like Poor Things. Check out Frankenhooker.

[Kushan Avadar]

Thank you, Keisha. I'm sorry, Acacia, thank you so much for calling. Clyde, you wanted to say something?

[Clyde Foley]

I'm so glad you pointed this out. This was my group text threads last Halloween were popping off on this very subject. And I'm glad that this film is being recognized. Perhaps we can get an honorary Oscar for Frankenhooker in the next Academy Awards. I don't know.

[Kushan Avadar]

We got a bunch more calls. Let's bring them in back to back. We're going to go to Anna from Brooklyn next. Hi, Anna, welcome to the show.

[Caller/Listener]

Hi. Thank you so much. I love this topic. So two of my favorite terrible movies are both sequels from similar era as Xanadu. The first is Grease 2, which maybe is Michelle Pfeiffer's first movie. I'm not sure about that, but some great singing montages in a terrible way. And the second is Staying Alive, which is the sequel to Saturday Night Fever where John Travolta's character gets a part in this like Broadway play about Satan and Vanilla Hughes, who was Anna Devane on General Hospital. Also kind of like a Gen X reference maybe is in it. And in a great scene, he walks from the Upper west side from her apartment to I guess Bensonhurst where he's supposed to live. And they show it as if it only takes like two hours. And I'm like, oh my God, that is like a 20 mile walk.

[Kushan Avadar]

Anna, thank you so much for that call. Let's go to John from Hell's Kitchen. John, what's your favorite worst movie?

[Caller/Listener]

I think the Criterion Collection should do a box set of Barbarella and Czardoz, which Barbarella pretty much is like the, the gay camp movie for the female male gaze. And then Zardar would be the gay camp movie for the male gaze because you get Sean Connery kind of the, the, you know, walking around in a loincloth through the whole movie and it's so outrageously funny and sexy. It's. They make the perfect companion pieces.

[Kushan Avadar]

John, thank you so much. Clyde, it looks like you wanted to say something to. To those listeners.

[Clyde Foley]

Oh, well, yeah. I love Zardas. Ardoz is fantastic film. Also very into staying alive. But the funny thing about bringing up grease 2, which is also a movie I have affection for, is that it was directed by Pat Birch, who is a talented choreographer and also the mother of Peter Becker, the president of the Criterion Collection. So it's all a very small world.

[Kushan Avadar]

It's layers and layers. Another movie that I think our listeners would really love to talk about is Shout Showgirls. The Criterion Channel synopsis describes Showgirls as both a delirious star is born satire and a terrifying vision of capitalism's corruption of the soul. Tell me how you really feel. Let's take a listen to one of its most famous scenes about Doggy Chow.

[Caller/Listener]

I don't know what all this stuff is. I'll order for you. Don't they have brown rice and vegetables? Do you like brown rice and vegetables? Vegetables, yeah. You do? Sort of. Really? It's worse than dog food. It is. I've had dog food. You have? Mm. Long time ago. Doggy Chow. I used to love Doggy Chow. I used to love Doggy Chow too.

[Kushan Avadar]

Tell me about why you picked this film for the collection.

[Clyde Foley]

Just give me two hours. I'm just gonna go back and rewatch Showgirls right now. I think Showgirls is a prime example of a film that was eviscerated upon release. You know, you could not get away from the hatred that's being spewed towards Showgirls. And now, here in the comfort of 2024, the pendulum has completely swung the other way. And it is acknowledged widely for the masterpiece that it is. And I think that there was a lot of confusion about what this movie. First of all, this is maximalist filmmaking doesn't even begin to describe Showgirls. And I think that there was this sense that it was unintentionally funny, which I think this consistently happens to Paul Verhoeven, the filmmaker who made it, is that his movies are misunderstood upon release or confused for the things that they're satirizing. And then with the passage of time, people just fully begin to understand what they're doing.

[Kushan Avadar]

And speaking of director Paul Verhoeven, he was the first recipient to actually attend the Razzies. Here was his acceptance speech.

[Clyde Foley]

The worst thing happened to me today.

[Caller/Listener]

I got seven of the worst awards. And I'm very happy because it was much better, much more fun. Than reading the reviews in September.

[Kushan Avadar]

Thank you, John. So do you think that this movie had an impact on movies that came after it in any way?

[Clyde Foley]

That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I think that I have a hard time answering that question right now because it's one of those things where it's like Showgirls just sort of like eclipses anything else that would even try to go near its form of maximalism. I don't know. It's very possible that we are all feeling the effects of Showgirls and we don't even know it. We're just living with it.

[Kushan Avadar]

Absolutely. If you're just joining us, this is all of it. We're talking to Clyde Foley, who's Criterion Channel's video editor and we're talking about the selection of the worst, the best worst movies for the month of March. We're gonna take a quick break, but I wanna point out one more time, listeners, we want you to be a part of the conversation. So call us or text us. 212-433-9692. What is your favorite worst movie? That's 212-433-WNYC and we will be right back. This is all of it. I'm Kushan Avadar in for Alison Stewart and we are talking about the best worst movies in your life. I'm talking with Clyde Foley who's Criterion Channel's video editor. And in the month of March, they are putting out a playlist of the best worst movies that have won a Razzie. A Razzie is a anti Oscar, I guess. Is that a way the inverse of the Oscar?

[Clyde Foley]

Good way to put it. Yes.

[Kushan Avadar]

We are asking for you, dear listener, to tell us your favorite worst movies. We have a bunch of calls. I'm gonna go to two very quickly. First, Brian and Windsor Terrace. Brian, hi, welcome to the show.

[Caller/Listener]

Thanks for having me. The best worst movie of all time is Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band from 1978 starring Peter Frampton and and the Bee Gees and a whole host of other superstars. It's terrible. It's great, Brian.

[Kushan Avadar]

Thank you so much. And let's hear from Angeline in Manhattan. Hi, welcome to the show. What's your favorite worst movie?

[Caller/Listener]

Hi. My favorite worst movie is the Wachowskis 2015 sci fi epic Jupiter Ascending in which Channing Tatum plays a genetically engineered military wolf who zooms around on roller skates, but because his wings are cut off, I don't know where the wings come from. It also stars Mila Kunis and Eddie Redmayne and Sean Bean. It's really not lacking for talent, but it's just incredibly misguided and incredibly fun.

[Kushan Avadar]

Angeline, thank you so much. Clyde, any comments on those two favorite movies?

[Clyde Foley]

You know, it's funny, I have not seen either of those movies, but I would straight up watch Sergeant Pepper's right now. Sounds great. Peter Frampton, Bee Gees. Completely reviled. Misfire. Yeah, I'd probably watch that.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, a movie that I'm guessing you have watched is the Blair Witch Project. Right?

[Clyde Foley]

I have watched the Blair Witch Project.

[Kushan Avadar]

And I think most people will be shocked to learn that the Blair witch project from 1999 is part of Razzie history. It was nominated for worst Picture and star Heather Donahue took home the award for worst Actress. How do you make sense of Blair Witch being nominated for Erazzie?

[Clyde Foley]

Well, I mean, it's one of those inescapable cultural forces where it completely dominated the discussion in the box office. It was hard to avoid Blair witch project in 19, but there was also a fair amount of blowback to it. I mean, at the end, there's so many jokes about it's all shaky, camera people screaming and it's amateurish and you're gonna get nauseous when you go see it in the theater, that sort of thing. And it is sort of. It is all those things still. But I also think that there's almost like a sense of, like, shock of the new when it comes to a film like Blair Witch Project, where it's just like no one had really made that movie before and had been like, that successful. And, you know, 25 years later, we see the influence and the whole creation of a subgenre of found footage horror films. So it's one of those things where, yeah, all these comments were made at the time, but I also think that time has justified it.

[Kushan Avadar]

My producer Simon asked you ahead of this interview what films you definitely wanted to focus on in this collection, the Criterion Collection, and we got a response back which included Freddy Got Fingered. Why must that film be discussed?

[Clyde Foley]

You know, this is one of those films that I had not seen in a. In a long time. And I rewatched it in anticipation of this program and I kind of flipped out for it. Again, I. It's is maybe the most transgressive studio film ever made. I mean, it is insane. I cannot believe a studio put out this movie. And, yeah, there's really nothing else. But it's also. I mean, maybe this is just a sign of how brain damaged I am at this point. But it is so funny. And it really, I think, embodies this feeling of, like, I don't know, people are saying, how did this get made? But genuinely, how did this get made? And it's pretty remarkable. I kind of love this movie.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, instead of a clip from the movie, let's hear Roger Ebert's review of it from 2001. Here it is.

[Caller/Listener]

I'm Roger Ebert, and what is the most disgusting film of 2001? Well, let's see. In a field that includes C Spot, Run, Monkey Bone, Tomcatz, and Joe Dirt. So we got some great contenders. The champion is Freddy Got Fingered with Tom Green making David Spade look like Jim Carrey, and Jim Carrey look like Laurence Olivier. It's a vomitorium of a movie starring Green as Gore.

[Kushan Avadar]

Who would you recommend that movie to?

[Clyde Foley]

People with strong stomachs, People who are maybe not socially well adjusted, people who are looking for extremes, People with a good sense of humor. I don't know. It's just. I find it's almost hard to discuss this film because there is true. There's nothing like it. And I don't know. I also want to clarify one thing here because, like, I think there's a lot of discussion of, you know, there's some movies that are so bad they're good. I want to make it clear. This is a good movie. It's transgressive, it's subversive, it's funny. Tom Green did it. Tom Green made a good film.

[Kushan Avadar]

How do you define a good movie?

[Clyde Foley]

You know, that's a great question. Because it's like, what. What are we looking for here? It's people. Because people are looking for different things. I'm probably looking for different things on different days. You know, some people might say that, like, they look for perfection in a film. But that's not the thing that I'm looking for. I think I'm looking for something that is where there's life behind it, where there's. I don't know, there's a viewpoint, there's something new, something fresh. But if we're gonna speak about objective terms, I don't know, maybe one metric is to judge a movie by what it sets out to do, right? Because there are different movies. Try doing different things and have different ambition levels. You can't judge Stranger than Paradise for not being Lawrence of Arabia.

[Caller/Listener]

Right.

[Clyde Foley]

They're just doing completely different things. So it's like, what is a movie trying to do? And does it succeed at that thing?

[Kushan Avadar]

Yeah, you're listening to all of it. I'm Kushan Avadar. I am joined by Clyde Foley, who's the Criterion Channel video editor listener. What is your favorite worst movie of all time? Call us or text us. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC and Clyde. A movie dear to my heart that I wanted to make sure we point out that's in this collection is the Wicker man starring Nicolas Cage. Why does that movie belong?

[Clyde Foley]

I think that when talking about, I don't know, certain strands of, you know what? I think that it's useful to discuss the career of Nicolas Cage, where I feel like this is a career that has all sorts of arcs, right? Like, you know, he shows up in the 80s and he's doing his own different thing. You've got, like, Raising Arizona and Vampires Kiss. And he's known for being a very idiosyncratic actor. And then mid-90s, he wins an Oscar for Leaving Las Vegas and then immediately backs it up with the Rock Face off in Con Air. So this guy is, like, proving that he's not gonna get pigeonholed into doing anything now. Within his career, there are little pockets that. I don't know. It's almost like he was going from different levels of Hollywood stardom. And there's definitely the period of his career when he's taking so many jobs because he owes the IRS a great deal of money. I think that Wicker man has a great deal of popularity because, I don't know, it's a very memeable movie. I remember this very early YouTube video. That's just a compilation of Nicolas Cage's craziest moments in this movie, Right? This is very early YouTube.

[Kushan Avadar]

This was a movie that launched a thousand memes. So we've gotta play a clip. Here's. How'd it get burned?

[Caller/Listener]

What is that? What is that?

[Kushan Avadar]

What is it?

[Caller/Listener]

Oh, no, no. Not the Beast. Not the Beast.

[Kushan Avadar]

I love my eyes.

[Caller/Listener]

My eyes.

[Kushan Avadar]

Fact check. That was actually the Bees Are in My Eyes, not How to Get Burned. If you would like to see how to Get Burned, I encourage you to go to the Criterion Channel and watch the film itself. Why do you think that film was so memeable?

[Clyde Foley]

Nicholas Cage is doing his Nicolas Cage thing, acting to the rafters. I think Nicolas Cage. I like Nicolas Cage. I don't think Nicholas Cage is bad in this movie. I think he's maybe the. I don't know. I'm not. This is not one. I'm not so keen on and it's a tricky one for me because it's like, I don't know. I'm gonna get lost in the weeds talking about Wicker man. So I'm just gonna say Nicolas Cage doing his crazy Nicholas Cage thing in kind of a tough movie.

[Kushan Avadar]

This year's Razzie for worst picture went to the horror film Winnie the Blood and honey, based on A.A. milne's children's book, whose characters are now in the public domain. You're a horror guy. Did you see the movie?

[Clyde Foley]

I did not see that movie.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, do you think that it would live up to the Criterion Channel's need for that? Like, what is art sense to have it fit into the rest of the movies? Or do you think that it's something new, that they're kind of what you're looking for in the future with what bad movies will be?

[Clyde Foley]

I don't know. I mean, it's. It's hard to speculate about a film that I haven't seen. And. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question. Ask me this question again in 20 years.

[Kushan Avadar]

Are there anything that. Are there things that you look for in horror films that make it a bad movie versus other sub genres that aren't necessarily bad and it makes it distasteful, but bad and actually makes it more enjoyable?

[Clyde Foley]

I don't know. Look, I mean, it's almost like you're saying distasteful, as if that's always a bad thing. I think that there's a place for, I don't know, transgression, for going against the grain of accepted taste. I think it's sort of all in execution. It's like, does. Is what it's doing worthwhile?

[Kushan Avadar]

And, you know, as we look like we're wrapping up in the next few minutes, in general, as you look at this large pantheon of film that the Criterion Channel is highlighting over the next month, why do you think bad film is important?

[Clyde Foley]

I don't know. You know, I don't think bad film is important. I think that looking at films on their own merits is important. I think it's important to not necessarily listen to what everyone's telling you and to actually look at something and then judging it on its own terms. And whatever your opinion of this thing is and listening to that, I think there are many times when critics and audiences have gotten things wrong the first time around, and I think that, I don't know, be skeptical of anyone telling you one thing or another to judge something on its own terms.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, We've got a couple texts before we close out this segment that I'd love to read. So we just got a text from a listener. Best worst movie is the Warriors. My brothers and I happened to watch it together years ago, and to this day, we are constantly referencing it in conversation and quoting lines at each other. It has provided us a lifetime's worth of humor for us. And Clyde, I can tell you, for me, the story that matches that text is the movie the Room, which did not make the Criterion Channels list. But one of my fondest memories is going to a movie theater and seeing it with a lot of people. So there's a communal aspect to it, too, right?

[Clyde Foley]

Communal aspect, yeah. Also, Tommy Wiseau is a very, very special man who made a very strange movie. And I think that. Yeah, I don't know, there's. I think there's always a communal aspect to movies, but there's also sort of. With certain kinds of movies, there's an aspect of everyone just sort of like, in shock and recognizing something is deeply strange at the same time.

[Kushan Avadar]

And what do you think that shock tells us? Do you think that is often meant to be? Or is it even better when it is totally by accident, which I think the room might be?

[Clyde Foley]

I'll take either one of these. I just think that, you know, what's my choice here? To be, like, bludgeoned by mediocrity or to be surprised or be presented by something that I don't quite know what it is? I'll take the surprise any day.

[Kushan Avadar]

Yeah. We were talking to Clyde Foley, whose Criterion Channels Vidya editor and the razzie goes to is on Criterion through March. Clyde, thank you so much for joining us and for all of those wonderful tips on the bad movies.

[Clyde Foley]

Oh, thank you for having me.

[Kushan Avadar]

And coming up, a new documentary explores the life and work of beloved actor Gene Wilder. It's called Remembering Gene Wilder. And director Ron Frank joins me to talk about it next. This is all of it.

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[Caller/Listener]

Let's go. I'mma put you on nephew.

[Clyde Foley]

All right, unc.

[Caller/Listener]

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss? I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back.

[Kushan Avadar]

We need snack wraps.

[Caller/Listener]

What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.