Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart
Episode: Debut AAPI Stories: Davin Malasarn's 'The Outer Country'
Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Davin Malasarn (author, co-founder of the Granum Foundation, scientist, podcaster)
Overview
This episode features an in-depth conversation with Davin Malasarn, author of The Outer Country, a debut novel following the tangled lives of two estranged sisters from Thailand and their family in America. The discussion centers on family, trauma, cultural tensions, and the process of writing a story inspired by personal experience — particularly a deeply formative Buddhist exorcism performed on a child who simply liked to dance and sing in a blanket “skirt.” The conversation is reflective, emotional, and honest, offering listeners an intimate look at both the creative process and the lived realities underlying the novel.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Novel’s True-Life Foundations
- Personal Experience: Davin reveals that the exorcism in the book mirrors his own childhood experience.
- “I had, you know, the experience of the ceremony being performed on me, but I don't think I even knew what it meant. And afterwards, I remember for weeks I would kind of go to bed and will myself to forget the experience. And I did. Eventually the memory was repressed and it came back to me in my late 20s.” (01:31, Davin Malasarn)
- Processing Trauma: Writing was a means to understand his family’s intentions and the generational dynamics at play, not just his own trauma.
- “When I wrote this book, I think it was more about understanding my family and, you know, the people who made the decision to do that. So in a way, it was an exercise to understand the other…” (02:08, Davin Malasarn)
2. Transition from Scientist to Novelist
- Scientific Roots:
- “My mom was a nurse. My aunt was a Chemistry teacher. And so I think I just had that love of nature and the details of life early on.” (02:53, Davin Malasarn)
- Artistic Exploration: Davin’s creative instincts existed alongside his science — painting, writing plays, and “always finding ways to create art.”
- Realizing Writing’s Potential:
- As a student, he didn’t initially see himself as a writer until an English teacher encouraged authentic personal expression.
- “For the first time, I just, I wrote emotionally. I wasn't overthinking it… I finally realized all this time, you know, they've only been trying to get us to express ourselves.” (03:24, Davin Malasarn)
3. Voice and Writing Style
- Plain, Direct Language:
- “I try to just, you know, get the language down as plainly and as emotionally as I can… my writing is very plain and straightforward.” (04:31, Davin Malasarn)
- Evolving Process:
- The novel's first draft was from Aunt Manda’s POV, later expanding to multiple perspectives.
- “The first iteration of this book was told from the point of view of the aunt, Aunt Manda…this became, you know, this polyphonic multi perspective novel.” (05:29, Davin Malasarn)
4. Story and Family Dynamics
- Sisters' Relationship:
- Manda is the dominant, protective, and popular sister; Sirupan is obedient, quietly helpful, and self-sacrificing.
- Family resources are deployed to send Sirupan (not Manda) to America, drastically altering their dynamic.
- “Of course Manda thinks it's going to be her. But when the decision is made, they pick Siropan instead. And so that really flips the dynamic.” (06:32, Davin Malasarn)
- Aunt-Nephew Bond:
- Manda embraces her role as Ben’s aunt, becoming central to his upbringing.
- “I'm not sure what she thinks in those early days, but the day she arrives is the day that Ben is born. And I think immediately she's enamored and she falls in love with Ben. And so he becomes this, you know, really central figure in her life.” (08:28, Davin Malasarn)
5. Navigating Gender, Sexuality, and Cultural Fears
- Exorcism Motivation: Manda's fears for Ben stem from witnessing a gay student’s harassment in Thailand, overlaying those anxieties on her nephew’s gender-nonconforming play.
- “She's worried that he might have to go through the same thing her student went through… She just wants to make sure he doesn't have any more struggles than he's already going to have.” (11:35, Davin Malasarn)
- Father’s Complicity:
- Cameron, Ben’s father, passively supports the exorcism out of insecurity and traditionalist beliefs.
- “He doesn't have a lot of self esteem. ... He's a traditionalist. So I… don't think he wants Ben to be gay. And so he's willing to sort of follow Manda's lead, you know, to turn his son straight again.” (12:42, Davin Malasarn)
6. Trauma and Embodiment
- Portraying Trauma: Davin was careful to depict the exorcism through multiple character perspectives, especially Manda’s, while striving for “objectivity and detail.”
- “The key was to report as much of it as I could objectively and get the details without sort of infusing my own judgment on it…” (13:42, Davin Malasarn)
- Psychosomatic Responses:
- Ben’s unexplained illness following the ceremony mirrors Davin’s personal experience, emphasizing the ways psychological harm manifests physically.
- “It is interesting to me to think of this boy getting sick in a way, in a sense, for no reason...something about the mystery of the ceremony and the anxiety that comes up afterwards, the questions, and maybe even his own understanding that something was wrong.” (14:48, Davin Malasarn)
7. Forgiveness, Nuance, and Empathy
- Author’s Hopes for Readers:
- “Sometimes I say that this book is sort of a lesson in forgiving...I wrote it, you know, with each of the family member perspectives to try to understand them better and to sympathize with them better.” (16:20, Davin Malasarn)
- The story serves as a call to listen across differences and embrace complex backstories, especially amid social polarization.
8. Advice for Debut Writers
- Letting Go of Perfection:
- “I'm always trying to battle this idea of I can't let this go until it's perfect. It's never going to be perfect...at some point you have to call it done and release it out into the world.” (17:03, Davin Malasarn)
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
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On Childhood Exorcism:
- “I remember for weeks I would kind of go to bed and will myself to forget the experience. And I did. Eventually the memory was repressed and it came back to me in my late 20s.” (01:31, Davin Malasarn)
-
On Family Intentions:
- “It was an exercise to understand the other and to get out of my own head and really just appreciate that everyone has their own good intentions, even if the outcome is not necessarily good.” (02:08, Davin Malasarn)
-
On Discovering Writing:
- “For the first time, I just, I wrote emotionally. I wasn't overthinking it. I just put on the page what I felt.” (03:24, Davin Malasarn)
-
On Keeping Prose Simple:
- “I'm not the one that's trying to find the $10,000 word. You know, I just want it. Whatever I feel that's what I want to get down on the page.” (05:03, Davin Malasarn)
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On Embodied Trauma:
- “It's not like he's forcing himself to do it, but something about the mystery of the ceremony and the anxiety that comes up afterwards...all those psychological elements come together and they have to manifest in the body.” (14:48, Davin Malasarn)
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On the Book’s Intention:
- “Hopefully this book is a reminder that we should keep listening to each other and strive to understand everyone's full story, because we bring those full stories into the decisions we make.” (16:20, Davin Malasarn)
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On Releasing a Debut:
- “It's never going to be perfect. And so, you know, at some point you have to call it done and release it out into the world.” (17:03, Davin Malasarn)
Memorable Moments & Readings
- Reading from the Book: (09:04–11:14)
- Davin reads a passage illustrating the family’s dynamic, Sirupan’s motherly anxiety, and the tenderness between the sisters and Ben.
- Aunt's Love and Fears:
- The complexity of Manda’s love — her protectiveness, cultural fears, and the tragic consequences of misguided intentions.
Important Timestamps
- [01:20] – Davin confirms real-life inspiration for Ben’s story
- [02:08] – Writing as understanding family/motivations
- [03:24] – Discovering authentic voice and joy in writing
- [05:29] – Evolving the novel’s structure and perspectives
- [06:32] – Explaining siblings’ dynamic and pivotal decision
- [09:04] – Author reading excerpt
- [11:35] – Manda’s motivations and cultural anxieties
- [12:42] – Cameron’s perspective and role in the exorcism
- [13:42] – Representing trauma and centering character viewpoints
- [14:48] – Physical manifestation of psychological trauma
- [16:20] – Hopes for empathy and understanding
- [17:03] – Advice for debut writers
Final Reflections
Davin Malasarn’s appearance on All Of It is notable for its honesty and grace. The episode deftly navigates thorny subjects of identity, culture, trauma, and forgiveness, ultimately offering hope for deeper empathy amid family and social divides. For aspiring writers, Malasarn’s insights into process and perspective are especially valuable.
Book Mentioned:
The Outer Country by Davin Malasarn
For further listening:
Listen to the full episode on WNYC or wherever you get your podcasts to hear Davin’s reading and more nuanced discussion of these personal and cultural themes.
