Debut AAPI Stories: Davin Malasarn's 'The Outer Country'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: Debut AAPI Stories: Davin Malasarn's 'The Outer Country'
Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Davin Malasarn (author, co-founder of the Granum Foundation, scientist, podcaster)

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Davin Malasarn, author of The Outer Country, a debut novel following the tangled lives of two estranged sisters from Thailand and their family in America. The discussion centers on family, trauma, cultural tensions, and the process of writing a story inspired by personal experience — particularly a deeply formative Buddhist exorcism performed on a child who simply liked to dance and sing in a blanket “skirt.” The conversation is reflective, emotional, and honest, offering listeners an intimate look at both the creative process and the lived realities underlying the novel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Novel’s True-Life Foundations

• Personal Experience: Davin reveals that the exorcism in the book mirrors his own childhood experience.
  • “I had, you know, the experience of the ceremony being performed on me, but I don't think I even knew what it meant. And afterwards, I remember for weeks I would kind of go to bed and will myself to forget the experience. And I did. Eventually the memory was repressed and it came back to me in my late 20s.” (01:31, Davin Malasarn)
• Processing Trauma: Writing was a means to understand his family’s intentions and the generational dynamics at play, not just his own trauma.
  • “When I wrote this book, I think it was more about understanding my family and, you know, the people who made the decision to do that. So in a way, it was an exercise to understand the other…” (02:08, Davin Malasarn)

2. Transition from Scientist to Novelist

• Scientific Roots:
  • “My mom was a nurse. My aunt was a Chemistry teacher. And so I think I just had that love of nature and the details of life early on.” (02:53, Davin Malasarn)
• Artistic Exploration: Davin’s creative instincts existed alongside his science — painting, writing plays, and “always finding ways to create art.”
• Realizing Writing’s Potential:
  • As a student, he didn’t initially see himself as a writer until an English teacher encouraged authentic personal expression.
  • “For the first time, I just, I wrote emotionally. I wasn't overthinking it… I finally realized all this time, you know, they've only been trying to get us to express ourselves.” (03:24, Davin Malasarn)

3. Voice and Writing Style

• Plain, Direct Language:
  • “I try to just, you know, get the language down as plainly and as emotionally as I can… my writing is very plain and straightforward.” (04:31, Davin Malasarn)
• Evolving Process:
  • The novel's first draft was from Aunt Manda’s POV, later expanding to multiple perspectives.
  • “The first iteration of this book was told from the point of view of the aunt, Aunt Manda…this became, you know, this polyphonic multi perspective novel.” (05:29, Davin Malasarn)

4. Story and Family Dynamics

• Sisters' Relationship:
  • Manda is the dominant, protective, and popular sister; Sirupan is obedient, quietly helpful, and self-sacrificing.
  • Family resources are deployed to send Sirupan (not Manda) to America, drastically altering their dynamic.
  • “Of course Manda thinks it's going to be her. But when the decision is made, they pick Siropan instead. And so that really flips the dynamic.” (06:32, Davin Malasarn)
• Aunt-Nephew Bond:
  • Manda embraces her role as Ben’s aunt, becoming central to his upbringing.
  • “I'm not sure what she thinks in those early days, but the day she arrives is the day that Ben is born. And I think immediately she's enamored and she falls in love with Ben. And so he becomes this, you know, really central figure in her life.” (08:28, Davin Malasarn)

5. Navigating Gender, Sexuality, and Cultural Fears

• Exorcism Motivation: Manda's fears for Ben stem from witnessing a gay student’s harassment in Thailand, overlaying those anxieties on her nephew’s gender-nonconforming play.
  • “She's worried that he might have to go through the same thing her student went through… She just wants to make sure he doesn't have any more struggles than he's already going to have.” (11:35, Davin Malasarn)
• Father’s Complicity:
  • Cameron, Ben’s father, passively supports the exorcism out of insecurity and traditionalist beliefs.
  • “He doesn't have a lot of self esteem. ... He's a traditionalist. So I… don't think he wants Ben to be gay. And so he's willing to sort of follow Manda's lead, you know, to turn his son straight again.” (12:42, Davin Malasarn)

6. Trauma and Embodiment

• Portraying Trauma: Davin was careful to depict the exorcism through multiple character perspectives, especially Manda’s, while striving for “objectivity and detail.”
  • “The key was to report as much of it as I could objectively and get the details without sort of infusing my own judgment on it…” (13:42, Davin Malasarn)
• Psychosomatic Responses:
  • Ben’s unexplained illness following the ceremony mirrors Davin’s personal experience, emphasizing the ways psychological harm manifests physically.
  • “It is interesting to me to think of this boy getting sick in a way, in a sense, for no reason...something about the mystery of the ceremony and the anxiety that comes up afterwards, the questions, and maybe even his own understanding that something was wrong.” (14:48, Davin Malasarn)

7. Forgiveness, Nuance, and Empathy

• Author’s Hopes for Readers:
  • “Sometimes I say that this book is sort of a lesson in forgiving...I wrote it, you know, with each of the family member perspectives to try to understand them better and to sympathize with them better.” (16:20, Davin Malasarn)
  • The story serves as a call to listen across differences and embrace complex backstories, especially amid social polarization.

8. Advice for Debut Writers

• Letting Go of Perfection:
  • “I'm always trying to battle this idea of I can't let this go until it's perfect. It's never going to be perfect...at some point you have to call it done and release it out into the world.” (17:03, Davin Malasarn)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Childhood Exorcism:

  • “I remember for weeks I would kind of go to bed and will myself to forget the experience. And I did. Eventually the memory was repressed and it came back to me in my late 20s.” (01:31, Davin Malasarn)

• On Family Intentions:

  • “It was an exercise to understand the other and to get out of my own head and really just appreciate that everyone has their own good intentions, even if the outcome is not necessarily good.” (02:08, Davin Malasarn)

• On Discovering Writing:

  • “For the first time, I just, I wrote emotionally. I wasn't overthinking it. I just put on the page what I felt.” (03:24, Davin Malasarn)

• On Keeping Prose Simple:

  • “I'm not the one that's trying to find the $10,000 word. You know, I just want it. Whatever I feel that's what I want to get down on the page.” (05:03, Davin Malasarn)

• On Embodied Trauma:

  • “It's not like he's forcing himself to do it, but something about the mystery of the ceremony and the anxiety that comes up afterwards...all those psychological elements come together and they have to manifest in the body.” (14:48, Davin Malasarn)

• On the Book’s Intention:

  • “Hopefully this book is a reminder that we should keep listening to each other and strive to understand everyone's full story, because we bring those full stories into the decisions we make.” (16:20, Davin Malasarn)

• On Releasing a Debut:

  • “It's never going to be perfect. And so, you know, at some point you have to call it done and release it out into the world.” (17:03, Davin Malasarn)

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Memorable Moments & Readings

• Reading from the Book: (09:04–11:14)
  • Davin reads a passage illustrating the family’s dynamic, Sirupan’s motherly anxiety, and the tenderness between the sisters and Ben.
• Aunt's Love and Fears:
  • The complexity of Manda’s love — her protectiveness, cultural fears, and the tragic consequences of misguided intentions.

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Important Timestamps

• [01:20] – Davin confirms real-life inspiration for Ben’s story
• [02:08] – Writing as understanding family/motivations
• [03:24] – Discovering authentic voice and joy in writing
• [05:29] – Evolving the novel’s structure and perspectives
• [06:32] – Explaining siblings’ dynamic and pivotal decision
• [09:04] – Author reading excerpt
• [11:35] – Manda’s motivations and cultural anxieties
• [12:42] – Cameron’s perspective and role in the exorcism
• [13:42] – Representing trauma and centering character viewpoints
• [14:48] – Physical manifestation of psychological trauma
• [16:20] – Hopes for empathy and understanding
• [17:03] – Advice for debut writers

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Final Reflections

Davin Malasarn’s appearance on All Of It is notable for its honesty and grace. The episode deftly navigates thorny subjects of identity, culture, trauma, and forgiveness, ultimately offering hope for deeper empathy amid family and social divides. For aspiring writers, Malasarn’s insights into process and perspective are especially valuable.

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Book Mentioned:
The Outer Country by Davin Malasarn

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For further listening:
Listen to the full episode on WNYC or wherever you get your podcasts to hear Davin’s reading and more nuanced discussion of these personal and cultural themes.

Transcript

[Davin Malasarn]

Foreign.

[Alison Stewart]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We finish out this hour with a novel that follows a real life story. It follows the deeply hidden tensions between two estranged sisters across two countries, Thailand and the United States, throughout decades of both of their lives. It's titled the Outer Country. Set in a Modestucco house in la, the story unravels after sisters Manda and Sirupan are reunited for the birth of Sirupan's son, Ben. Manda loves her nephew stepping in as a bonus parent. However, Manda and Sirupan clash over their thoughts on parenting once Ben starts displaying certain mannerisms, like dancing and singing while wearing a blanket as a skirt. Manda secretly requests the help of a monk who performs a Buddhist exorcism on the boy. This event leads to years of confusion and Ben as he tries to confront his past and family issues. The Outer country is out now. Author Davin Malasaran is a scientist turned writer and co founder of the Granum Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting writers. Yay. He also hosts the Artist Statement podcast. Davin, thank you so much for joining us.

[Davin Malasarn]

Hey, Alison, thanks a lot for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

You mentioned that what happened to Ben in the novel is something that actually happened to you as a child. How much did you understand what was happening in the moment?

[Davin Malasarn]

Yeah, I didn't understand very much at all. I had, you know, the experience of the ceremony being performed on me, but I don't think I even knew what it meant. And afterwards, I remember for weeks I would kind of go to bed and will myself to forget the experience. And I did. Eventually the memory was repressed and it came back to me in my late 20s. And so only after, you know, many years did I start to reconstruct exactly what happened.

[Alison Stewart]

Was writing this book part of your processing it?

[Davin Malasarn]

I did a lot of work on my own before I wrote the book, and that was sort of, for me. When I wrote this book, I think it was more about understanding my family and, you know, the people who made the decision to do that. So in a way, it was an exercise to understand the other and to get out of my own head and really just appreciate that everyone has their own good intentions, even if the outcome is not necessarily good.

[Alison Stewart]

I wanted to start with our conversation about the fact that you were in scientific research and now you're the author of a fiction novel. First of all, what drew you to the world of science?

[Davin Malasarn]

You know, I always was interested in science. My mom was a nurse. My aunt was a Chemistry teacher. And so I think I just had that love of nature and the details of life early on. So I always studied science, especially biology, but I also was always expressing myself. So as a kid, I was painting and I was writing, you know, dumb little plays and just always finding ways to create art as well.

[Interviewer 2]

Was writing a novel one of your long term goals?

[Davin Malasarn]

Not for a long time. When I was a student, I actually was. I don't think I was a good writer. I definitely didn't enjoy writing. I spent most of my time trying to figure out what the teachers wanted me to write. And I don't think that's a good approach. Right. When I was a senior in high school, I had this wonderful English teacher. And for one of the exercises, she had us write about our hometown. And for the first time, I just, I wrote emotionally. I wasn't overthinking it. I just put on the page what I felt. And it was the first time I got praise from a teacher. And I finally realized all this time, you know, they've only been trying to get us to express ourselves and to put our thoughts on the page authentically. And so after that happened, then I was like, oh, this is actually really fun. I do want to write. And I went to college with that in mind and I started taking creative writing classes.

[Interviewer 2]

What did you learn about your own voice and your own style through writing this first novel?

[Davin Malasarn]

I've done a lot of writing before this book, so in a way, I had a lot of years to practice and figure out my voice. I. I think I don't use a lot of bells and whistles. I try to just, you know, get the language down as plainly and as emotionally as I can. I don't know if that'll change over time, but for now, I think, you know, I think my writing is very plain and straightforward.

[Interviewer 2]

And you don't mean plain like boring plain, but just very simple.

[Davin Malasarn]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not the one that's trying to find the $10,000 word. You know, I just want it. Whatever I feel that's what I want to get down on the pa

[Interviewer 2]

how did your approach to writing change from the first draft of this book, early draft of the book, to the finished draft? Did you do outline? Did you write on pieces of paper, on napkins? When you had an idea, how did it come to you? And then how did you translate it into an official book?

[Davin Malasarn]

Yeah, I'm a very loose writer and I had mentors who kind of encouraged that. So there was a lot of free Writing, you know, like you said, writing on envelopes and napkins and just getting whatever was inside my head on the page as quickly as possible. That happened for a long time. And the first iteration of this book was told from the point of view of the aunt, Aunt Manda. And only after I had sort of the entire story from her point of view did I start to experiment and incorporate the other family members. And I had mentors and advisors who said that that was actually filling out the story more. So this became, you know, this polyphonic multi perspective novel.

[Interviewer 2]

A debut novel follows multiple generations of a family split between Thailand and the United States. It's called the Outer Country. Author Davin Malasarn is here to discuss. All right. It revolves around these two sisters, Manda and Sirupon. What's their sibling dynamic?

[Davin Malasarn]

Yeah, so it changes when they are living in Thailand. The eldest sister, Manda is sort of ruling the roost. She's there to protect the younger siblings. She protects them from bullies. She kind of defends them whenever they get in trouble. She has a lot of friends and she's just sort of the popular one. Then there's Seraphan, who's the next eldest. And she's the really obedient one. She's always very kind. She always volunteers to do the chores, wash the dishes, help with dinner. And so there is that dynamic of Manda being on top and Sirupan being the quiet one in second place. Then comes the big decision. Their parents have enough money to send only one of them over to America, which they call the outer country. And of course Manda thinks it's going to be her. But when the decision is made, they pick Siropan instead. And so that really flips the dynamic. Everything, all of the energy is invested in Sir Pon to get her ready to go on this trip. She goes to nursing school. She goes to Bangkok to do an initial internship and then she goes to Los Angeles. Meanwhile, Manda's sort of left behind and she's learning about this through letters. She's learning about Srirapan falling in love and getting married and having a child. And only after Siropan has sort of established herself in America is Manda allowed to go over. She has some things going on at home which she's trying to avoid. So she's happy to leave. But she also is going to America without that solid footing that Siropan had. And Manda's primary purpose, the way it's presented to her, is to help raise the boy. Ben.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. How does Manda feel about becoming an aunt to Ben?

[Davin Malasarn]

I think so. Before she comes to America, she is a teacher. And so she's used to having a lot of students. And I think she really likes that when she comes to America. I'm not sure what she thinks in those early days, but the day she arrives is the day that Ben is born. And I think immediately she's enamored and she falls in love with Ben. And so he becomes this, you know, really central figure in her life and in terms of her purpose.

[Alison Stewart]

Devin, I'm gonna ask you to read a little bit from your book. You wanna set this up for us?

[Davin Malasarn]

Sure. So, as I mentioned, in the beginning, Ben is born. And they're in this household of four with the mother, Seraphan, the father, Cameron, and this aunt Manda. And so, you know, a few months have passed and now we're hearing a little bit about Sirupan and her reflections. Siropan splayed the baby naked on the changing table. Her face was grim. She warmed the bell of her stethoscope with her breath and pressed it to Ben's chest. What could it be this time? Congestive heart failure? Is that it? Look at these swollen arms. Look at these thighs and ankles. Ben giggled against her gentle pinches. A mound of bubbles pushed up past his lower lip. Are you choking? That must be where my keys have gone. She dabbed his mouth, thumped him between the shoulder blades with a flat of her hand. Each day was another batch of dire diagnoses. Everything that was cute about him transformed into a symptom. It was a game they played. Whenever Sirapan put on her uniform in preparation for work, she used her fake fears to push away the real fear that came from abandoning him. Since her maternity leave ended, she worried she hadn't prepared the others to take proper care of Ben. But she told herself she had to relax. And she had to trust. After all, Cameron could fly Ben through the house, spinning around corners and dipping into dark rooms. With surprising agility, Manda treated Ben as if he were her star pupil. She carried him out to the new garden populated by the seeds she brought over from Pet Bouri. She explained to Ben the intricate processes of photosynthesis and nitrogen fixation. Complicated pathways Sirupan no longer remembered. On top of that, Cameron and Manda would be together. She would help him, and he would help her.

[Alison Stewart]

That's Davin Malassarn reading from his book, the Outer Country. So Manda thinks she's doing the right thing because there's this moment when Ben Wraps a blanket around his waist like a skirt and starts dancing. Which concerns Manda. What are her fears?

[Davin Malasarn]

She has come from an experience of having a gay student in Thailand when she was still a teacher. And he was bullied while he was there. And, you know, some. Some bad consequences came from that. So when she sees Ben, she's worried that he might have to go through the same thing her student went through. On top of that, she's in a new world, right? She doesn't know much about America except that there are a lot of forces opposing her and opposing the family. And so I think in one sense, she just wants to make sure he doesn't have any more struggles than he's already going to have. So she makes the decision to find this monk to perform this ceremony and try to, you know, quote, unquote, fix him.

[Alison Stewart]

Ben's father goes along with this exorcism ceremony, but isn't as decisive about it as Manda is. Why does he go along with it?

[Davin Malasarn]

Ben? So Ben's father, Cameron, was one of the last characters that sort of illuminated themselves for me. And the way I see him is he doesn't have a lot of self esteem. I think he has some love, but he's also battling with his own inner demons. That positions him to not be very authoritative when it comes to parenting. And so he can be easily swayed. He's a traditionalist. So I. I don't think he wants Ben to be gay. And so he's willing to sort of follow Manda's lead, you know, to turn his son straight again. So even though his own wife is not on board, he thinks he's doing the right thing.

[Interviewer 2]

The exorcism scene is deeply traumatic for Ben. How did you think about representing that experience with care?

[Davin Malasarn]

I had a lot of drafts in trying to get that right, and they evolved over the years. I've actually written this many times. I think for me, the key was to report as much of it as I could objectively and get the details without sort of infusing my own judgment on it at the same time, you know, each chapter is told from the point of view of a different character. And so I was able to put Manda's emotions and her perspective into this because we're seeing the first time it happens, we're seeing it through her point of view, and she can kind of inject her own fears into it, even though she was the one that made this happen.

[Interviewer 2]

It's interesting. Ben starts experiencing side effects after this. Although he's perfectly healthy Leaving doctors to believe it's psychological. How did you want to explore how traumatic experiences manifest themselves in the body?

[Davin Malasarn]

That was really interesting to me. And, you know, like you said, this is based on my true experiences. And so mostly I just wanted to, you know, share what I had been through. It is interesting to me to think of this boy getting sick in a way, in a sense, for no reason. Right. Even he can think back on the ceremony and say, well, nothing physically harmed me. It was scary, but I was not actually hurt. And yet he becomes sick. And I think the sickness is a real thing. It's not like he's forcing himself to do it, but something about the mystery of the ceremony and the anxiety that comes up afterwards, the questions, and maybe even his own understanding that something was wrong, even if he doesn't know what it was. All those psychological elements come together and they have to manifest in the body. Or if they don't, then I guess we're all, you know, then we just store it in our bodies. So it's part of his struggle to kind of release that tension and that trauma in whatever way he knows to. As a young boy.

[Interviewer 2]

What do you hope people think about when they finish reading their book, your book?

[Davin Malasarn]

Sometimes I say that this book is sort of a lesson in forgiving. I wrote it, you know, with each of the family member perspectives to try to understand them better and to sympathize with them better. And I think at a time when, you know, this country is very polarized on so many different topics, hopefully this book is a reminder that we should keep listening to each other and strive to understand everyone's full story, because we bring those full stories into the decisions we make.

[Interviewer 2]

It's your debut novel. What advice would you give to people out there working on their own debut?

[Davin Malasarn]

I would say I often remind myself that this is just one step along the journey. And I think that readers understand that. I'm always trying to battle this idea of I can't let this go until it's perfect. It's never going to be perfect. And so, you know, at some point you have to call it done and release it out into the world. And then you get to go back and work on something else, and hopefully that will be better.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the novel is the Outer Country. It's by author David Melisarne. Thank you for joining us.

[Davin Malasarn]

Thank you so much.

[Alison Stewart]

And that is all of it for today. Tomorrow we'll have a Mother's Day extravaganza here on all of it. I'm Al Alison Stewart, I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

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