Drummer Max Roach Turns 100

Summary

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All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Summary: "Drummer Max Roach Turns 100"

Date: January 9, 2024
Guests: Nasheet Waits (drummer and NJPAC concert musical director), Raul Roach (Max Roach’s son)

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Overview

In this episode, host Alison Stewart celebrates the centennial birthday of legendary drummer Max Roach, reflecting on his life, legacy, and monumental impact on music and culture. The episode features an intimate discussion with Max Roach’s son, Raul Roach, and acclaimed drummer Nasheet Waits—who not only knew Roach as a mentor but whose father also played with Roach. Together, they explore Roach’s deep ties to Brooklyn and the American South, his work ethos, quest for artistic freedom, resistance to musical labels, and the influence he had personally and professionally on those around him. The conversation is interspersed with stories, music, and memorable moments, culminating in a look ahead at the NJPAC centennial concert celebration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Max Roach’s Roots and Community Connections

• Home is Brooklyn: Although born in North Carolina, Roach’s heart was in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. He remained rooted in the community, mentoring young musicians and cherishing his local legacy.
  • “He started playing at Concord Baptist Church in Bed Stuy, our family church for many generations... It’s really what educated him.” — Raul Roach [04:12]
• Family ties to the South: Roach’s family made regular visits back to North Carolina, grounding themselves in the legacy of their ancestors, including Roach’s great-great-great-grandfather who founded a town as a freed Black man before the Civil War.
  • “Everything for him was about, you know, being, celebrating the ancestors—whether that be in the south or in Africa...” — Raul Roach [06:35]

2. The Work Ethic and Creative Drive

• Unyielding dedication: Both guests emphasize that beyond Roach’s talent, it was relentless work that set him apart.
  • “What made him unique was not something that is unique. It’s like a consistent work ethic... dedicated to pushing the envelope and never resting on their laurels.” — Nasheet Waits [07:51]
  • “He had a work ethic and he believed in the work ethic. Even though he had genius and talent... it really was about putting in the work and expanding boundaries.” — Raul Roach [08:57]
• Democracy in music: Roach redefined jazz drumming, transforming the traditional role of the drummer and promoting equality among band members.
  • “His whole thing was not being locked in as a drummer, as a timekeeper... A very democratic art form, as he would say.” — Raul Roach [08:57]

3. Breaking Out of Boxes—Resisting Labels

• Dislike of “jazz” as a label: Roach saw musical labels as limiting, especially the term “jazz,” which he viewed as imposed and racially charged. A clip is played of Roach himself discussing this:
  • “Jazz is to me, a nickname... That’s not the proper name for African American instrumental music. It never was a name that we as musicians gave. It was a name that just was given to it.” — Max Roach (clip) [14:06]
  • “It’s tantamount to talking about not being labeled, not allowing other people to define you, but defining yourself... a core principle of freedom.” — Raul Roach [14:50]
• Economic and historical implications:
  • “Jazz is a four-letter word… every time I use that word when I’m negotiating a contract, the money goes down… there was a negative quality associated with the term that also had… the racism…” — Nasheet Waits [15:12]
  • “Jazz was a slang word… in New Orleans that meant sex… It was named by outsiders, not creators.” — Raul Roach [16:35]

4. Defining Moments & Musical Selections

• Max Roach’s Big Break at 18: Roach’s readiness and talent led to his landmark opportunity substituting for Duke Ellington’s drummer.

  • “He wouldn’t have got the opportunity if he wasn’t ready to shine. And from that, he just took off.” — Nasheet Waits [17:32]
  • Roach credited Duke Ellington with helping him through nerves: “Duke looked at him and saw his panic and said, ‘Don’t worry. Keep one eye on the act and one eye on me and you’ll do fine.’” — Raul Roach [18:10]

• Music as Personal Story:

  • Equipoise: Chosen for its personal resonance, as Raul spent more time with his father around the time of its recording.
    • “What was important to him was not being put in a box… It was about freedom for him.” — Raul Roach [10:30]
  • Raoul: A piece recorded 5 months after Raul was born—rediscovered years later by the family.
    • “When I think about it now… it was Christmas time and he loved me and he thought about me and he recorded a song after me. So I’m very happy about that.” — Raul Roach [19:20]

5. Legacy & Upcoming Centennial Celebration

• Reimagining “We Insist! Freedom Now Suite”:
  • The NJPAC concert continues Roach’s innovative spirit, incorporating spoken word and video for a contemporary update, featuring Cassandra Wilson, Ravi Coltrane, Sonia Sanchez, Saul Williams, and others.
  • “We’re able to make an offering that is well received… This is going to be the first time [Cassandra Wilson] performs live in some years... Sonia Sanchez and Saul Williams [will] deal with spoken word… reimagined in the sense that wasn’t a component to the recording in 1960.” — Nasheet Waits [21:19]
• Roach as a Man & Father:
  • Raul shares candid reflections on his father’s character—his brilliance, ferocity, and love, especially for his family despite the challenges of being a traveling musician.
    • “He was brilliant, he was smart, he was ferocious and fierce in his determination… As a father... I got to really see that part of him as a father every day. And it was wonderful.” — Raul Roach [22:42]

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Notable Quotes

• On community and roots:

  • “He felt was not his birthplace but definitely his home was Bed Stuy Brooklyn.” — Raul Roach [04:12]

• On work ethic:

  • “He had a work ethic and believed in the work ethic, even though he had genius… it was about putting in the work and about expanding the boundaries.” — Raul Roach [08:57]

• On freedom and resisting labels:

  • “It’s tantamount to talking about not being labeled, not allowing other people to define you, but defining yourself... that statement embodies [freedom].” — Raul Roach [14:50]

• On the meaning of “jazz”:

  • “Jazz is a four-letter word... every time I use that word when I’m negotiating a contract, the money goes down.” — Nasheet Waits [15:12]
  • “Jazz was a slang word... that meant sex... named by outsiders, not creators.” — Raul Roach [16:35]

• On how drumming changed:

  • “His whole thing was not being locked in as a drummer, as a timekeeper, not having a front line and a back line, but making... what they call bebop music... about working together with equals.” — Raul Roach [08:57]

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [03:53] — Interview begins with Raul Roach and Nasheet Waits
• [04:12] — Raul on Max Roach’s Bed-Stuy Brooklyn upbringing
• [05:19] — Family’s Southern and ancestral connections
• [07:11] — Nasheet on Max as lifelong mentor
• [08:57] — On Max Roach’s work ethic and musical philosophy
• [10:30] — The importance of not being put in a box (“Equipoise”)
• [14:06] — Roach’s feelings about the “jazz” label (audio clip)
• [15:12] — Economic/racial aspects of the label “jazz”
• [17:32] — The story of Roach’s break with Duke Ellington Orchestra
• [19:20] — Significance behind the song “Raoul”
• [21:19] — Nasheet’s vision for the NJPAC concert reimagining “We Insist! Freedom Now Suite”
• [22:42] — Raul on Max Roach as a man and father

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Conclusion

This episode of All Of It offers a heartfelt, insightful tribute to Max Roach at his centennial, revealing both the legacy of a musical revolutionary and the deeply personal impact he had on his family and protégés. Listeners are left with a sense of Roach’s artistry, his devotion to both tradition and progress, his resistance to limitation, and the ongoing relevance of his vision for music and freedom.

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Transcript

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[Raul Roach]

All right, unc.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[Alison Stewart]

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[Alison Stewart]

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[Nasheet Waitz]

My pleasure.

[Alison Stewart]

And Raul Roach, Max Roach's son. So nice to meet you.

[Raul Roach]

Nice to meet you as well. Thank you so much.

[Alison Stewart]

So, Max, your dad was born in coastal North Carolina, as we mentioned, 1924. Obviously it's a centennial. How did your father talk about Brooklyn, though? I think most people think about him and Bed Stuy?

[Raul Roach]

Well, he loved it. And he continued to be connected to the community which was most important to him and the Bed Stuy community throughout his life. Working with young people, working with new musicians. I think he cherished and spoke often about. And I know a ton of stories, but stories from that era. But it's really what educated him. You know, he. He started playing at Concord Baptist Church in Bed Stuy, our family church for a few, many generations, and was a part of the Drum and bugle corps. That's how he picked up his instrument. And then he went on to just go to all the clubs as a young person, like 13, 14, sneaking in the clubs. And the club owners in Brooklyn would let him in so he could listen to all these great musicians. And so very fondly he thought of his. What he felt was not his birthplace, but definitely his home was bed stock Brooklyn.

[Alison Stewart]

Was there any conversation in the family about or any attachment to the south at all?

[Raul Roach]

Oh, yeah. We went there every two years for. You know, the great story about the south is my father's grandfather, my great, great, great grandfather, one of the greats, right? Founded, Founded a town, Newland Township, in 1840, before the Civil War. Black man who bought his freedom and his wife's freedom and his brother's freedom in Barbados and emigrated to North Carolina. It's a very Strange story, but true. And that town still exists. There's only two roads. It's a farm community. All of my grandmother's, my father's mother's parent family lives on one line, the Saunders. And the other road is Roaches. And so we have a lot of double cousins. But yeah, they're doing a Max Roach Day down there. They're really bringing out the bells. They put up a mural and doing concerts and a series of lectures down there. Max Roach Day. And they're doing a Max Roach Festival in April, which there'll be details available on MaxRoach.com There you go.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you, as an adult, do you have a sense of why your folks or your dad took you down there every couple years?

[Raul Roach]

Wow, that's such a great question. You know, I think for him it was about connecting to community, about connecting to roots. You know, everything for him was about, you know, being, celebrating the ancestors and whether that be in the south or in Africa, he developed that connection, studied that connection and engaged with that connection throughout his life.

[Alison Stewart]

Nasheed, let's bring in the conversation. So your father was a percussionist who played with Max Roach?

[Nasheet Waitz]

He certainly was, yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

He was one of your mentors.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Oh, definitely the first mentor.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you remember about the first time you met Max Roach?

[Nasheet Waitz]

You know, I don't remember the first time because it was like he was a member of the family.

[Alison Stewart]

He was just always there.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Yeah, it was like he was a member of the family from the beginning, to be quite honest. So I took a lot of those relationships and opportunities for granted as a younger person. As I get older, as I am now, I realized how precious that opportunity was.

[Alison Stewart]

As you think about it as a professional musician, when you think about what his contribution has been and what made him unique, those are two different things. What made him unique. And then when you think about what his contribution was to drumming, well, I.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Think they actually come hand in hand because what made him unique was also what he contributed. And what made him unique was not something that is unique. It's like a consistent work ethic. And also somebody who is dedicated to pushing the envelope and never resting on their laurels. And there were a lot of musicians who were like that. But in the world of quote unquote drumming, he's like tad about to other drummers. They look to him as like the top of the mountain because of the type of time that he put in to his work and the fact that he was dedicated to an original connection to the creative source. He preached that nonstop.

[Alison Stewart]

Something so interesting you said. And it just sort of. It blew my mind for a minute because when I think about someone like Matrix, when I think about Matrix, I think talent and I think about the creative spirit. But you talked about the hard work he put in the time. Raoul, could you speak to that a little bit about the idea of you can have all the talent, you can have all the passion, but man, it comes down to work.

[Raul Roach]

Absolutely. And he believed in it, trust me. All of my. Me and my siblings, all of us started working as soon as we could. He put us to work. But yeah, absolutely. He had a work ethic and he believed in the work ethic. And even though he had genius and talent and imagination for days eons, it really was about putting in the work and about expanding the boundaries. You know, his whole thing was not being locked in as a drummer, as a timekeeper, not having a front line and a back line, but making bebop, what they call bebop music, about a working together with equals and everyone had something to say. A very democratic art form, as he would say. So the work to him was, you know, it was the most important thing, I think, in his life, following his. And then everybody else came next, including his family. But he loved everybody. People and his family. Absolutely.

[Alison Stewart]

We are discussing the centennial of Max Roach. He would have turned 100 today. There are all these Max Roach centennial concerts. There's one happening at NJPAC on January 26th at 8pm My guests are Nasheet Waitz and Raul Roach. So, Nasheet, you chose a song for us to hear. You wanted us to play equipoise from 1960.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Oh, that was a Raoul's choice.

[Alison Stewart]

That was Raul's choice.

[Nasheet Waitz]

But that's a beautiful song, Stanley Calicomposition. Wonderful.

[Alison Stewart]

Raul, why did you choose this one?

[Raul Roach]

You know, during that period is when I began to come and spend more time with my dad, you know, with a musician who's on the road all the time. And one nighters. And I experienced that young. After I came out of college, I was Wynton Marsalis road manager for a brief period. And after six months, I was ready to stop. It's a hard life. Yeah, I'm going to be an executive, sit in a room and use my pen. That's it. But, you know, I think that, you know, what was important to him was making sure that he wasn't put in a box. The box of jazz, the box of drumming, the box of being a black man, a box of anything. He wanted to expand the boundaries. It was about freedom for him.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's hear Equipoise.

[Raul Roach]

Sa.

[Alison Stewart]

What is something that you hear as a journey drummer about this technique and this song that you want people who aren't drummers to understand?

[Nasheet Waitz]

There's always a commentary on texture, the juxtaposition of, you know, smooth and rough to just give. Use layman's terms so you can kind of. Everybody can understand it. Also like a, you know, a sense of time and how you can feel different parts of the beat before the, after the middle, and also dynamics in terms of how you accompany a melody, how you accompany that, how you accentuate certain passages in that melody. All of that is present and. And what Papa Max was doing right there.

[Alison Stewart]

We're discussing the centennial of Max Roach. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We are celebrating Max Roach. He would have turned 100 today. It's his birthday. Joining us in the studio is his son, Raul Roach, as well as Nashee Waits, another very good drummer who was also. Maxwell was his mentor and friend of his family. I want to play a clip, Raoul, of your dad, because your dad was not fond of labels. You sort of alluded to that about boxes. He didn't really like the term jazz or bebop. This is a clip of him speaking about this, which was featured in a recent PBS documentary about him.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Well, Janice is to me, a nickname. To me, it's synonymous to and things like that.

[McDonald's Customer]

That's not the proper name for African American instrumental music.

[Nasheet Waitz]

It never was.

[McDonald's Customer]

A name that we as musicians gave.

[Alison Stewart]

To.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Was a name that just was given to it. So you're not a jazz musician? No, I'm an African American musician and.

[Raul Roach]

That'S the kind of music that I play.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you make of your dad's thoughts about that now that you're a person who's been in the music industry? Same for you, Nishit. You're a musician yourself. How do you relate to that thought process?

[Raul Roach]

Well, I think, you know, it's tantamount to talking about not being labeled, not allowing other people to define you, but defining yourself. You know, essentially that's a. A core principle of freedom, is the ability to do that. And I think that statement embodies that.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. How about for you, Nasheed, when you think about the labels we put around music?

[Nasheet Waitz]

Well, I remember Max specifically commenting on that very word. And his, his sentiment was jazz is a four letter word. And he said, every time you use. I use that word when I'M negotiating a contract, the money goes down. Could be the same project, could be the same music. So there was a negative quality that was associated with the term that also had, you know, that also encapsulated in that is also the racist, the racism, you know, and any other isms that you would negatively categorize a people or a source of a culture, which is what that is. So he was definitely against that word and that label and what it represented, because like Raul was saying, it had a way of limiting the opportunity.

[Alison Stewart]

I've heard it from modern jazz musicians as well, that they're not. The label's not something that they want to be associated with, that they want to be musicians.

[Nasheet Waitz]

It wasn't originated by the creators as well. So that's another position that he was firm about because it didn't have a representation of the people who were creating the culture, who were from the culture. It was created by people who were on the outside looking in and finding a way to monetize it, commodify it. Yeah, exactly.

[Raul Roach]

He talked about the etymology of the word. Jazz was a slang word in New Orleans that meant sex. And at that time, our music aside, us playing it for ourselves was only played, you get paid for the black musicians who played in the houses of ill repute in New Orleans. And so they would call it jazz music because these were jazz houses of sex. And so once he found that out, he, you know, understood that this was really something that was named by outsiders, their experience with it, and not by the creators of it.

[Alison Stewart]

So the story goes, the big break came at 18 and he filled in as a drummer one night for the Duke Ellington Orchestra at the Paramount Theater. So to put this in context for people, nasheed, as an 18 year old kid, a drummer, what would that mean to a young drummer?

[Nasheet Waitz]

Everything. Because Duke Ellington was, I mean, he's like the ambassador at that time. He's a star, you know, like one of the, one of the preeminent faces on the planet, you know, much less in the music. So for him to get that opportunity is comment on his, on his preparedness, because he wouldn't have got the opportunity if he wasn't ready to shine. And from that he just took off. From before that he was already ascending. But then that was, you know, when you, when you give, when you get those opportunities, he took full advantage.

[Alison Stewart]

Did he ever talk about that night with you, Raoul?

[Raul Roach]

Yeah, he talked about it a lot. Of course, he had a story. He said that his drummer, St. Catlett, I think, was drafted. So he was in New York, and he called the club owner in Brooklyn, a friend of his, and asked, do you know any drummers who can read music? He said, well, I know a kid. He sounds great. And then recommended dad. And he said he showed up and when he got to the bandstand. And he sat up high behind above the band and he got to the drums and there was no music in sight. So he was, like, freaked out. And then Duke was, of course. These guys are so sensitive and smart and prescient. He looked at him and saw his panic and said, don't worry. Keep one eye on the act and one eye on me and you'll do fine. And he said he made it through.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Incredible. That's right.

[Alison Stewart]

We are discussing Max Roach. Today would have been his hundredth birthday. My guests are Nasheet Wait and Raoul Roach. We're playing the song. Raul, what do you want people to know about this song?

[Raul Roach]

My dad recorded this in a session with Clifford Brown five months after I was born. And it didn't come out on the original release. It came out as a alternate take in a later reissue of the record in the early 60s. So I never knew about it until I got older. And it was just. When I think about it now, you know, I just think about the fact that it was Christmas time and he loved me and he thought about me and he recorded a song after me. So I'm very happy about that.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's hear it. Sam, that is Raul, of course, we mentioned in the intro, we insist. Max Roach's Freedom Suite, now released in 1960s and you're 60s. Excuse me. And y' all are reimagining it for this concert at njpac. Cassandra Wilson's gonna be there. Robbie Coltrane.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Tell us a little bit more about this evening. What were your hopes for it? What are your dreams for it?

[Nasheet Waitz]

My hopes and dreams are that we're able to. We're able to make an offering that is well received by the people. And I know there's some incredible musicians like Cassandra. And I believe this is gonna be the first time she's gonna have performed live in some years. So it's really special for us. We're very grateful that she agreed to be a part. Robbie Coltrane is going to be a part of it as well. Duduzu mcatini playing piano. Eric Revis, bass. I could talk about everybody, but it's a long list of folks and whatnot. And then there's also going to be the addition of Sonia Sanchez and Saul Williams.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, wow.

[Nasheet Waitz]

As dealing with the spoken word and Allison Schatz offering the video so reimagined in a sense that that wasn't a component to the recording that was offered in 1960. But Max reimagined this piece quite a few times after that. And there was some transcript involved and there was some choirs and dancers involved. So it's been expanded several times. And this is just another rendition.

[Alison Stewart]

When you think about this being your father's hundredth birthday, his centennial, what is something you'd want people to know about him as a man and as a father? We can watch documentaries about him. As a musician, we can hear his musicianship. But as a person, something you'd like people to know about Max Roach.

[Raul Roach]

Well, I gotta tell you, I think, you know, he was such an incredible person. I mean, he was brilliant, he was smart, he was ferocious and fierce in his determination and his drive to stick with his muse and make things happen in the world. You know, my brother often quotes him as saying, it's hard out here and he worked hard to make things happen. As a father, I think it's a traveling musician, it can be difficult, you know, for my older siblings. You know, he was out all the time. I mean, you know, Monk's son, the lonely monk's son, told me that dad told him he was another student of dad, that before Clifford Brown died, they had 400 dates booked over the next two years. So he was always away when I came to live with him full time because I lived with my mother at time the as my older siblings did. And he married my twin sisters, Ioanne, Dara's mother. He took the professorship at the university. And I got to really see that part of him as a father every day. And so did my younger sisters and it was wonderful.

[Alison Stewart]

The concert is this. It's on January 26th at 8pm it is the Max Rhodes Centennial Concert happening at NJPAC. My guests have been Nasheed Wait and Raul Roach. Thank you so much for for coming to the studio. We really appreciate it and sharing your stories.

[Raul Roach]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, let's go out next time.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Yes. 100.

[Alison Stewart]

Happy birthday, dad.

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[McDonald's Customer]

I'm gonna put you on, nephew.

[Raul Roach]

All right, unc.

[Nasheet Waitz]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[Alison Stewart]

Can I take your order, miss?

[McDonald's Customer]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.