All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode Summary: "Drummer Max Roach Turns 100"

Date: January 9, 2024
Guests: Nasheet Waits (drummer and NJPAC concert musical director), Raul Roach (Max Roach’s son)

Overview

In this episode, host Alison Stewart celebrates the centennial birthday of legendary drummer Max Roach, reflecting on his life, legacy, and monumental impact on music and culture. The episode features an intimate discussion with Max Roach’s son, Raul Roach, and acclaimed drummer Nasheet Waits—who not only knew Roach as a mentor but whose father also played with Roach. Together, they explore Roach’s deep ties to Brooklyn and the American South, his work ethos, quest for artistic freedom, resistance to musical labels, and the influence he had personally and professionally on those around him. The conversation is interspersed with stories, music, and memorable moments, culminating in a look ahead at the NJPAC centennial concert celebration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Max Roach’s Roots and Community Connections

• Home is Brooklyn: Although born in North Carolina, Roach’s heart was in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. He remained rooted in the community, mentoring young musicians and cherishing his local legacy.
  • “He started playing at Concord Baptist Church in Bed Stuy, our family church for many generations... It’s really what educated him.” — Raul Roach [04:12]
• Family ties to the South: Roach’s family made regular visits back to North Carolina, grounding themselves in the legacy of their ancestors, including Roach’s great-great-great-grandfather who founded a town as a freed Black man before the Civil War.
  • “Everything for him was about, you know, being, celebrating the ancestors—whether that be in the south or in Africa...” — Raul Roach [06:35]

2. The Work Ethic and Creative Drive

• Unyielding dedication: Both guests emphasize that beyond Roach’s talent, it was relentless work that set him apart.
  • “What made him unique was not something that is unique. It’s like a consistent work ethic... dedicated to pushing the envelope and never resting on their laurels.” — Nasheet Waits [07:51]
  • “He had a work ethic and he believed in the work ethic. Even though he had genius and talent... it really was about putting in the work and expanding boundaries.” — Raul Roach [08:57]
• Democracy in music: Roach redefined jazz drumming, transforming the traditional role of the drummer and promoting equality among band members.
  • “His whole thing was not being locked in as a drummer, as a timekeeper... A very democratic art form, as he would say.” — Raul Roach [08:57]

3. Breaking Out of Boxes—Resisting Labels

• Dislike of “jazz” as a label: Roach saw musical labels as limiting, especially the term “jazz,” which he viewed as imposed and racially charged. A clip is played of Roach himself discussing this:
  • “Jazz is to me, a nickname... That’s not the proper name for African American instrumental music. It never was a name that we as musicians gave. It was a name that just was given to it.” — Max Roach (clip) [14:06]
  • “It’s tantamount to talking about not being labeled, not allowing other people to define you, but defining yourself... a core principle of freedom.” — Raul Roach [14:50]
• Economic and historical implications:
  • “Jazz is a four-letter word… every time I use that word when I’m negotiating a contract, the money goes down… there was a negative quality associated with the term that also had… the racism…” — Nasheet Waits [15:12]
  • “Jazz was a slang word… in New Orleans that meant sex… It was named by outsiders, not creators.” — Raul Roach [16:35]

4. Defining Moments & Musical Selections

• Max Roach’s Big Break at 18: Roach’s readiness and talent led to his landmark opportunity substituting for Duke Ellington’s drummer.

  • “He wouldn’t have got the opportunity if he wasn’t ready to shine. And from that, he just took off.” — Nasheet Waits [17:32]
  • Roach credited Duke Ellington with helping him through nerves: “Duke looked at him and saw his panic and said, ‘Don’t worry. Keep one eye on the act and one eye on me and you’ll do fine.’” — Raul Roach [18:10]

• Music as Personal Story:

  • Equipoise: Chosen for its personal resonance, as Raul spent more time with his father around the time of its recording.
    • “What was important to him was not being put in a box… It was about freedom for him.” — Raul Roach [10:30]
  • Raoul: A piece recorded 5 months after Raul was born—rediscovered years later by the family.
    • “When I think about it now… it was Christmas time and he loved me and he thought about me and he recorded a song after me. So I’m very happy about that.” — Raul Roach [19:20]

5. Legacy & Upcoming Centennial Celebration

• Reimagining “We Insist! Freedom Now Suite”:
  • The NJPAC concert continues Roach’s innovative spirit, incorporating spoken word and video for a contemporary update, featuring Cassandra Wilson, Ravi Coltrane, Sonia Sanchez, Saul Williams, and others.
  • “We’re able to make an offering that is well received… This is going to be the first time [Cassandra Wilson] performs live in some years... Sonia Sanchez and Saul Williams [will] deal with spoken word… reimagined in the sense that wasn’t a component to the recording in 1960.” — Nasheet Waits [21:19]
• Roach as a Man & Father:
  • Raul shares candid reflections on his father’s character—his brilliance, ferocity, and love, especially for his family despite the challenges of being a traveling musician.
    • “He was brilliant, he was smart, he was ferocious and fierce in his determination… As a father... I got to really see that part of him as a father every day. And it was wonderful.” — Raul Roach [22:42]

Notable Quotes

• On community and roots:

  • “He felt was not his birthplace but definitely his home was Bed Stuy Brooklyn.” — Raul Roach [04:12]

• On work ethic:

  • “He had a work ethic and believed in the work ethic, even though he had genius… it was about putting in the work and about expanding the boundaries.” — Raul Roach [08:57]

• On freedom and resisting labels:

  • “It’s tantamount to talking about not being labeled, not allowing other people to define you, but defining yourself... that statement embodies [freedom].” — Raul Roach [14:50]

• On the meaning of “jazz”:

  • “Jazz is a four-letter word... every time I use that word when I’m negotiating a contract, the money goes down.” — Nasheet Waits [15:12]
  • “Jazz was a slang word... that meant sex... named by outsiders, not creators.” — Raul Roach [16:35]

• On how drumming changed:

  • “His whole thing was not being locked in as a drummer, as a timekeeper, not having a front line and a back line, but making... what they call bebop music... about working together with equals.” — Raul Roach [08:57]

Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [03:53] — Interview begins with Raul Roach and Nasheet Waits
• [04:12] — Raul on Max Roach’s Bed-Stuy Brooklyn upbringing
• [05:19] — Family’s Southern and ancestral connections
• [07:11] — Nasheet on Max as lifelong mentor
• [08:57] — On Max Roach’s work ethic and musical philosophy
• [10:30] — The importance of not being put in a box (“Equipoise”)
• [14:06] — Roach’s feelings about the “jazz” label (audio clip)
• [15:12] — Economic/racial aspects of the label “jazz”
• [17:32] — The story of Roach’s break with Duke Ellington Orchestra
• [19:20] — Significance behind the song “Raoul”
• [21:19] — Nasheet’s vision for the NJPAC concert reimagining “We Insist! Freedom Now Suite”
• [22:42] — Raul on Max Roach as a man and father

Conclusion

This episode of All Of It offers a heartfelt, insightful tribute to Max Roach at his centennial, revealing both the legacy of a musical revolutionary and the deeply personal impact he had on his family and protégés. Listeners are left with a sense of Roach’s artistry, his devotion to both tradition and progress, his resistance to limitation, and the ongoing relevance of his vision for music and freedom.