"Dune 2" Review

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Dune 2" Review

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Kushan Avadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guests: Sean Fennessey & Amanda Dobbins (Co-hosts of The Big Picture podcast, The Ringer)
Date: March 14, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Denis Villeneuve’s "Dune: Part Two," discussing its box office success, critical acclaim, and deeper cultural questions. Host Kushan Avadar leads a dynamic conversation with film critics Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins, exploring the film’s artistic merits, themes of Orientalism and white saviorism, performances by new cast members, and its awards potential—while fielding listener reactions and advice for experiencing the epic on the big screen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anticipation and Expectations

• Sean’s Hopes:

  • “I was hoping for majesty and I received it. Honestly, I was quite thrilled by what I saw.” (04:00)
  • Expected a grand spectacle and felt Denis Villeneuve delivered everything he wanted.

• Theatrical Resonance of Part Two:

  • Amanda notes increased resonance due to moviegoers returning to theaters post-pandemic, “this movie is big in terms of stakes, scope… there is a propulsiveness to it that Part two really delivers on” (04:27).
  • Highlights the cultural moment of event movies—post-"Barbenheimer" enthusiasm and communal movie experiences.

2. Denis Villeneuve’s Directorial Evolution

• Sean on Direction:
  • Villeneuve’s prior films ("Sicario," "Arrival," "Blade Runner 2049") were stepping stones, culminating in "Dune: Part Two."
  • “This is the movie that he’s been working up to for the last 15 years” (05:38).
  • Praises his mastery of tension, emotional weight, and ability to marshal large-scale production.

3. The Stacked Cast & Performances

• New Additions:
  • Discussion of Austin Butler, Florence Pugh, and Christopher Walken as impactful newcomers.
  • Amanda: “I don’t know whether I’m allowed to talk about my enthusiasm for Austin Butler on public radio in this way, but I was glad to see him… Christopher Walken was the big hit in our theater.” (06:53)
  • Appreciates the delight in seeing new and established stars appear frequently.

4. Critical Themes: Orientalism & White Saviorism

• Host Prompt:

  • Raises audience critiques of Fremen representation and lack of Arab actors in central roles.

• Sean on Criticism (08:18):

  • Acknowledges the pointed nature of casting choices and their relation to themes of power and colonization.
  • “If you’re feeling charitable… on Arrakis, there’s not a Muslim culture... There are the cultures of this expanded world that Frank Herbert imagined in the 1960s.”
  • Sees the film as “suspicious of the concept of white saviors,” suggesting the narrative intentionally critiques this trope.

• Amanda on Online Discourse (10:01):

  • Warns against judging based on isolated images (“screenshots get divorced from their source material”), advocating for nuanced discussion contingent on context.

5. Character Arc – Lady Jessica

• Listener Critique:

  • Some viewers find Lady Jessica less engaging in Part Two compared to Part One.

• Sean:

  • Her character’s transformation is deliberate, reflecting “a kind of zealotry... a kind of a historical religion that drives some of the other characters’ choices and she loses some of that nuance.” (11:30)
  • Recognizes loss of fun, but sees it as story-necessitated.

• Amanda:

  • Notes how dense the plot is: “There is just also a lot of plot in this movie.” (12:31)
  • Wishes for more time with Ferguson’s nuanced performance but concedes adaptation realities.

6. Awards Potential & Oscars Conversation

• Sean:

  • Strike-impacted release calendars place "Dune: Part Two" at the front of 2024’s Oscar hopefuls (13:14).
  • Early release is not necessarily a hindrance, citing "Everything Everywhere All at Once" as precedence.

• Amanda:

  • Observes, “maybe it’s nice that we have our Oppenheimer this year and we get our Villeneuve next year,” hoping it will remain in the awards conversation. (13:50)

7. The Ideal Viewing Experience

• Kushan:

  • Seeks guest advice for undecided viewers.

• Sean:

  • “I strongly recommend an IMAX. Strongly.” (14:22)

• Amanda:

  • “Go see it in a theater if you can.” She shares that her husband also enjoyed it on a standard screen. (14:26)

• Sean:

  • Their own experience: “We went to our local AMC and we watched it on IMAX in Glendale, California and it was wonderful.” (14:37)

8. Franchise Future

• Kushan:

  • Asks if a third film is likely.

• Sean:

  • “I would be stunned if it didn’t happen.” (14:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sean Fennessey (Spectacle):

  • “I was hoping for majesty and I received it. Honestly, I was quite thrilled by what I saw.” (04:00)

• Amanda Dobbins (Theater Experience):

  • “This movie just rocks.” (04:27)

• Sean Fennessey (Villeneuve’s Career):

  • “This is the movie that he’s been working up to for the last 15 years...” (05:38)

• Amanda Dobbins (Austin Butler):

  • “I don’t know whether I’m allowed to talk about my enthusiasm for Austin Butler on public radio in this way, but I was glad to see him.” (06:53)

• Sean Fennessey (White Saviorism):

  • “I do think, though, that the film is ultimately very suspicious of the concept of white saviors.” (08:18)

• Amanda Dobbins (Online Reactions):

  • “Screenshots get divorced from their source material and start conversations online.” (10:01)

• Sean Fennessey (IMAX Experience):

  • “I strongly recommend an IMAX. Strongly.” (14:22)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:00] – What Sean expected from "Dune: Part Two"
• [04:27] – Amanda on theatrical release impact and excitement
• [05:38] – Sean on Denis Villeneuve’s directorial journey
• [06:53] – Amanda’s enthusiasm for new cast members
• [08:18] – Discussion on Orientalism and white saviorism
• [10:01] – Amanda on online discourse and context
• [11:30] – Analysis of Lady Jessica’s character arc
• [13:14] – Oscars and awards speculation
• [14:22] – Recommendations for the best way to watch
• [14:51] – Prospects for a third film

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Conclusion & Takeaways

The episode provides an engaging, multi-layered discussion about "Dune: Part Two’s" artistic achievements, its place in the current cinematic landscape, and its cultural implications. Both critics agree Denis Villeneuve’s vision is grandly realized and recommend seeing the film in the best possible theater setting. While they acknowledge and unpack criticisms of representation and character development, they maintain that the film delivers on both spectacle and narrative intrigue. Fans and newcomers alike are encouraged to experience it in theaters and look forward to further installments in the saga.

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Transcript

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[Sean Fennessey]

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[Kushan Avadar]

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[Sean Fennessey]

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[Kushan Avadar]

All right, this next segment's about a movie, so please indulge me as I open the segment as if you're watching a movie trailer in a winter that has been full of film flops. Madame Web, anyone? One movie has taken audiences by storm. Dune Part two. Thank you. The follow up to Denis Villeneuve's first adaptation of the beloved Frank Herbert Novel Dune Part 2 sees Paul Atreides and his mother, Lady Jessica, learning how to adapt to life amongst the Fremen, the local people who inhabit the deserts of Arrakis. Paul learns how to become a Fremen warrior, ride a sandworm, and falls in love with a Fremen woman named Johnny. Some of the Fremen believe that Paul is a kind of messiah, a leader who has come to fulfill a centuries old prophecy. At first, Paul's hesitation to lean into this religious fervor is huge. But as forces from other worlds come to threaten the Fremen, Paul has to decide whether he should embrace the prophecy to help fight his enemies. The film stars Timothee Chalamet and Zendaya alongside Rebecca Ferguson, Javier Bardin, Austin Butler, Florence Pugh, Josh Brolin and more. The film is getting rave reviews and cleaning up at the box office. It raked in 82.5 million at the box office on opening day domestically. But does it really live up to the hype? I'm Kushan Avadar. Forgot to ID myself at the top. I'm in for Alison Stewart. Way too focused on the movie voice. But we're here to discuss. And I'm here with Sean Fennesee and Amanda Dobbins, co hosts of the Big Picture podcast for the Ringer, Shawn. Amanda, welcome to the show.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hi Kushna. Thank you.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thanks so much for having us.

[Kushan Avadar]

Absolutely. Listeners, we want to hear from you too. What did you think of Dune Part 2? What was your theater experience like? Are you excited for a potential third movie? We want to hear what you liked or didn't like about Dune Part 2. So give us a call or text us. The number is 212-433-9692. And by the way, we're going to do our best to keep spoilers out of this conversation. So if you're calling, please keep that in mind. So let's dive into it. Sean, we're going to. When you went to go see this movie, what, what were you hoping for? What were your expectations?

[Sean Fennessey]

I was hoping for majesty and I received it. Honestly, I was. I was quite thrilled by what I saw. I was expecting a big tent, big spectacle, sci fi epic. And Denis Villeneuve truly delivered on it. He gave us everything, I think, that we wanted from it.

[Kushan Avadar]

And Amanda, what was more successful or exciting about this second part compared to the first? Because to me, it seems like the sequel is resonating more with audiences than the first one did.

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[Amanda Dobbins]

I think some of that is that it's being released now in 2024 when everyone can go back to the theaters. If you recall, Part one was a day and date during COVID online and in theaters at the same time. And we do also have this sense of event movies. Right after Barbenheimer, people are getting amped to go and buy their obscene popcorn bucket and be a part of the movie experience. But I think also this movie is big in terms of stakes, scope. You end Part one being like, well, what's gonna happen? And there is a propulsiveness to it that Part two really delivers on. Also has many new movie stars of the new generation, so there's a lot to See? And again, it's really fun. This movie just rocks.

[Kushan Avadar]

And I think so much of that, I felt like I saw echoes of everything that Denis Vinouve was doing in previous movies. I mean, he's directed Sicario, he's directed Arrival, which is one of my favorites. Blade Runner 2049. Sean, what do you think makes Denis the good director for this sequel, for this series?

[Sean Fennessey]

I've said that this is the movie that he's been working up to for the last 15 years, especially since he first started making films in the United States. He's Canadian, and he's obviously a massive science fiction fan, but also a master of tension. Those are the two things that I think signal his best work. Prisoners, Sicario, Arrival. These are films where you're desperate to find out what's going to happen next. They also have a deep emotionality to them, but you can feel someone looking for a bigger canvas, hoping to widen the aperture of the kind of story he can tell. And Dune Part two is huge. It's just a massive story. And he's well suited to be the conductor of a film that probably required hundreds upon hundreds of crew people working on the film, of a massive cast, and of a story that has scope across many, many years, many planets. And he knows exactly how to play the orchestra of a movie like this. And it's exciting to see a filmmaker fully achieve, Fully realize the thing that you sense that they have been driving towards their entire career.

[Kushan Avadar]

Yeah. You mentioned cast. Amanda, you mentioned cast, too. There's a lot of new additions to this movie. We've got Christopher Walken, Florence Pugh, Austin Butler. Amanda, was there any that really stood out to you as a fantastic addition?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, wow. I don't know whether I'm allowed to talk about my enthusiasm for Austin Butler on public radio in this way, but I was glad to see him. I thought that he did very well, and he was certainly compelling. I'm a huge Florence Pugh fan. Christopher Walken was the big hit in our theater, Sean. And I got a chance to see it with everyone at our local mall like you do.

[Kushan Avadar]

I don't.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I'm so nervous about spoilers that I don't want to go any further into, you know, even what Florence Pugh is up to, but it's really just a stacked cast. Javier Bardem, Rebecca Ferguson, everyone you've mentioned there are. Someone new and exciting is popping up every five minutes on the screen, and it's a delight.

[Kushan Avadar]

Yeah, you know, I'm happy you brought up the spoilers, but we just Got a pleading text that says, please don't spoil anything about future Dune installments or the books. I'm blissfully unaware of what comes next next. We hear you. We're gonna stick to that. And I want to pivot to talk a little bit about a theme that doesn't spoil anything. But I think is. Was super interesting to me while I was watching it, the idea of Orientalism and white saviorism. So there's been a lot of discussion in the first movie and in this one about the way the Fremen are clearly based on Arab and Muslim cultures without many Arab actors in the main leading roles. Sean, what do you think of that criticism?

[Sean Fennessey]

It feels like a pointed choice by the filmmakers in some ways, that there is a. The way that people portray characters in these worlds when they're attempting to seize power, I feel like, is a dramatic theme of the story. And, you know, the idea of Timothee Chalamet entering a world in which he is largely unfamiliar and attempting to take a kind of control, or is resisting the idea of control and attempting to take control later in the film. And I think that it's a long debate in the history of Hollywood about whether or not people from certain cultures should always portray the characters that are being portrayed in those films. This film, because it is science fiction, it attempts to have its cake and eat it, too. And in some ways, if you're feeling charitable towards the interpretation of the filmmakers, you can say, well, on Arrakis, there's not a Muslim culture, there's not a Christian culture, there's not a Jewish culture. There are the cultures of this expanded world that Frank Herbert imagined in the 1960s. But it's also reasonable to say it's clear that Frank Herbert was basing a lot of these concepts and ideas not just on religions across our world, but on the practical nature of ecology in our world, on the way that political and power structures work in our world. So I think it's completely up for debate whether or not it's a reasonable choice. I do think, though, that the film is ultimately very suspicious of the concept of white saviors, and that the way that the Chalamet character pursues power and the way that those who support him thrust him into roles of power is really more of a comment on the way that this has happened. You know, colonization has worked over centuries around the world. So if this is a misstep, somehow in the filmmaking choice, there's still rationale in the creative and in the narrative of the story that I think makes it coherent.

[Kushan Avadar]

Amanda, what do you think about that?

[Amanda Dobbins]

I completely agree. And I think, you know, there's been a discussion a lot online and I'm sorry to bring up the Internet about because it's always based on, you know, photos or things, not the full context of the movie. And I do think it is hard to have this nuanced discussion without spoiling, which again, we're not going to do. But for example, the way that Rebecca Ferguson is clothed in the movie, if you're just seeing a picture of it, it certainly looks like she is, you know, wearing Islamic wear on a white woman in a way that feels disrespectful. If you see the movie, there is some context around it and there's a reason. And I think you're supposed to take away a different impression from it than you would say just looking at a screenshot. But also we live in a world where screenshots get divorced from their source material and start conversations online. So it's. I mean, it's all part of the experience. And I think at some point having the conversation is the point.

[Kushan Avadar]

Yeah. And actually it's interesting that you brought up Rebecca Ferguson because we just got a text that I want to bring up and get both of your reactions to it. It says Part two was incredible. I saw it on imax. The seats shook. It was an amazing immersive experience. If I had to give a criticism, I found Lady Jessica's character much less interesting in this installment. It makes me wonder how the character is in the book. Rebecca Ferguson brought something so interesting to the character in Part one, but I wasn't fond of what they did to her character in Part two. The score was excellent. So Rebecca Ferguson, what are your reactions to that? How. How did you take it when you watched the movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, again, I think it's a very purposeful character choice. You know, her character goes through a significant transformation, which is what Amanda is alluding to in terms of how that character is framed in their costuming and in the way that they speak. And that transformation effectively reduces down what made her such a compelling figure playing both sides in the film. A really ambiguous character who is critical to Paul Timothee Chalamet's character's evolution in this film. She becomes more entrenched in a kind of zealotry, you know, in a kind of a historical religion that drives some of the other characters choices and she loses some of that nuance, which is, I think, ultimately a comment on the way that sometimes religion or structure can drive people to have a single mindedness so do I wish Rebecca Ferguson was as fun as she is in the first film or in the Mission Impossible films, for that matter? Of course I do. She's an incredibly charismatic and fun actor. But that wouldn't have been right for Lady Jessica in this story.

[Amanda Dobbins]

There is just also a lot of plot in this movie, you know, and so I did feel that as well as the listener, just at some point, they got to get a lot of places very quickly, and you're like, wait, but what about this and what about that? And obviously, in any adaptation, choices have to be made, but I, too, would have enjoyed rocking out with her a bit more.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Kushan Avadar]

When we're looking at the clock, we have about two minutes left. And I'd love to think about the timing of this film, especially as we look at, you know, the Oscars are this weekend, but at the next Oscars, what role this film might play. If this film hadn't been delayed, do you think it could have been in serious contention for Best Oscar, or do you think it still might be? It seems like timing is a little bit less important than it used to be. Sean, what do you think?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, the industry is really impacted by the strikes of 2023, and so because of that, the release calendar is a little bit lighter in 2024 than we might have expected. That obviously was a part of the factor for why this film got moved to 2024. As far as the most anticipated movies of this year, this was very near the top of the list for Amanda and I. And the fact that it delivered, I think, means that it has a strong chance to compete for best Picture later next year. I mean, also, you may remember, everything Everywhere all at Once was also a March release. So just because the film was released earlier in the year does not necessarily mean it won't compete. So I feel like there's a good chance we're talking about this movie at this time next year.

[Kushan Avadar]

Amanda, what do you think?

[Amanda Dobbins]

Oh, I agree. I think if it had been released in November, as it was supposed to be, it would make this year's Oscars even more confusing. And there would be. I think The Denis Villeneuve vs Christopher Nolan Oppenheimer standoff would have been a bit tricky. So in some ways, maybe it's nice that we have our Oppenheimer this year and we get our Villeneuve next year, but I do think it'll hang around.

[Kushan Avadar]

Yeah, that makes sense. And as I'm thinking about listeners that haven't seen the movie yet, do you have any advice for them? Maybe. Is this worth going to see an iMax? Can you have the same experience on a regular screen? What do you both think?

[Sean Fennessey]

I strongly recommend an imax. Strongly.

[Amanda Dobbins]

I agree as well. Though I will say anecdotally, my husband couldn't get into an IMAX last night. Went to Standard and he had a great time too. So go see it in a theater if you can.

[Kushan Avadar]

What theater did you both get to go see it in?

[Sean Fennessey]

We went to our local AMC and we watched it on IMAX in Glendale, California and it was wonderful.

[Kushan Avadar]

And so, not to spoil anything, but do you both think a third film might be getting made?

[Sean Fennessey]

I would be stunned if it didn't happen. Yeah.

[Kushan Avadar]

Well, we'll have to see. Sean Fennesee and Amanda Dobbins are co hosts of the Big Picture podcast. We were talking About Dune Part 2. Listeners, here's my question for you. Did you see it? What did you think about it? What worked for you? What didn't hit us up? Text us 212-433-9692. We'd love to share some of those on social media. Or you can hit us up on social media. We're all of it. Wnyc. Sean, Amanda, thank you so much.

[Amanda Dobbins]

Thank you.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks for having us.

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[Sean Fennessey]

All right.

[Kushan Avadar]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I take your order, miss?

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