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All Of It with Alison Stewart
Editing 250 Hours of 'Wicked' (The Big Picture)
00:28:17
Film editor Myron Kerstein had the monumental task of taking 250 hours of footage and turning it into the two part movie musical "Wicked."
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WNYC Studios Announcer
Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
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Alison Stewart
This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here. On today's show we'll speak with Robel Oweke, the author of A Short History of black craft in 10 objects. We'll also talk about the new PBS documentary about the new LaGuardia Airport titled Extreme Airport Engineering. That's the plan. So let's get this started with the Oscar nominated editor of Wicked. When Myron Kerstein was given the task of editing both parts one and two of Wicked, he was in for an immense challenge. First of all, there is about 250 hours of footage to sort through. The movie would be split into two parts. It was a musical and the singing was live. There were giant dance scenes. And of course there were expectations of devoted fans of the stage musical who wanted and waited for 20 years to see the story of Glyndon Elphaba come to the big screen. But Myron had musical experience editing films like Tick Tick Boom and In the Heights. He and director John Chu had a great working relationship from previous projects. He, he was up for the challenge. Now Myron is an Oscar nominated for his work editing Wicked, which is also nominated for Best Picture. We are speaking to him as part of our series the Big Picture featuring conversations with Oscar nominees who work behind the camera. Myron, welcome to all of it.
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Myron Kerstein
Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here again and I just want to say that you are a national and New York treasure and I'm so thankful for your rehabilitation and I'm just, I'm really honored to be here.
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Alison Stewart
Oh well, thanks. Step by step and hopefully I won't screw up in this interview. When was your first big break as a film editor?
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Myron Kerstein
My first big break was on a film called Black and White. I heard that James Toback needed basically a button pusher to basically do his whatever he asked me to do. And it turned out to be a really big credit because there was a lot of stars in there like Robert Downey Jr. Was in it, Brooke Shields, Elijah Wood, the list goes on and on so it's a really, it was a really big opportunity for me, but really it was these amazing editors who brought me on as an assistant editor from the editors on TV Nation, Michael Moore's old sort of news magazine show that predated Colbert Report and Daily show, and my mentor, James Lyons, who was the editor of Todd Haynes films like Velvet Goldmine and Safe. And the list goes on and on again.
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Alison Stewart
So when you said that was your.
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Sponsor Announcer
Your big break, what did it teach you about editing?
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Myron Kerstein
Well, it taught me that so much of storytelling goes into the editing craft. You can get, you know, hundreds of hours of footage, and if you have an idea, you can make something amazing out of it. And so of the rewrite they say goes in, happens in the editing room. And that's true because, you know, it's one thing to have the script that tells all the crafts, the production designer or the costume designer, the actors what to say and possibly look at, but then, you know, the storytelling, the rewriting happens again in the editing room. And so quickly I learned that I had a lot of power as an editor, and I was also the co parent of nurturing this baby into existence and, and then putting it out into the world. And so I, I take a lot of pride in the work that I do. And other, and other editors feel the same way. They, they, they put everything they have into, into the storytelling and, and making something for an audience.
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Sponsor Announcer
When you read Wicked, what did your editor brain say to you when you finished?
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Myron Kerstein
Well, when I finished the first part, I burst out into tears. I remember thinking, this is this script. And this, this IP really touched me emotionally. And my editor brain told me we have to capture that same feeling in the edit. And if we can do that, if we can make this work emotionally, then we have something here. If we don't feel the power of the words and the relationship and the music, if we don't feel this big cliffhanger, Empire Strikes Back cliffhanger with the end of Defying Gravity, then it's not going to work. So I just knew after reading the script that I had to find the same emotion with whatever we did in the edit, and then hopefully the audience would respond to it.
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Alison Stewart
You told Filmmaker magazine that, quote, musicals are the hardest thing I could ever cut. What makes musicals so difficult?
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Myron Kerstein
Because as soon as someone starts singing, the storytelling can maybe stop because you start to just see the song and it could turn into a music video. And I think that it's really, really important for us as storytellers to always keep the audience really tight in your hands and just to make the journey feel like it just never stops. So when you start a song, there is you. You can really lose your audience. And so I think that John's take on making Wicked was like, the story never stops just because the singing starts. And so that is the first thing. The second thing is it's really hard technically to go between dialogue and live singing and keep things in rhythm. And it's also hard to start and stop songs and go into score and dialog and action scenes. Like, it's really, technically, it's really difficult to do, to have all those balls in the air. It's hard enough to cut anything for any editor. You know, it's. It just doesn't, it doesn't just. There's no, there's no roadmap, but there's thousands of choices. As you said, I had 250 hours between the two movies, so I have just so many choices. But then you have to manage all the music and, you know, somehow in my case, have somebody like Cynthia Erivo singing while she's flying around and in wires and rig and make it feel seamless. And so it's just a lot to juggle.
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Sponsor Announcer
Goofy question. Did you get all 250 hours at the end or did you see it throughout the filming?
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Myron Kerstein
No, it was an eight month shoot. And we had. They did this thing kind of like in television. They did this thing called block shooting, which is basically like. Like if you're doing a number of episodes, you may get the dailies or the footage of an episode that's the second or third episode of the series. I would get the same thing. I would get two hours one day of part one, two hours the next day of Part two. And so I was always sort of like juggling between the two movies. So it was a lot coming at me all the time. But I did have an eight month shoot, so it's quite long. And I was in the UK while they were doing it. And so, you know, you sort of. You have to just bite off things in little morsels. You know, you just can't take it all on at the same time. You have to make sure that you don't get overwhelmed by all the footage. But I was, you know, and then of course, you don't really know what you have until the. Till they, you know, you get back to Los Angeles, you're like, okay, now I have a movie here. But yeah, thank goodness I don't get it all at the end.
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Alison Stewart
My guest is Myron Kerstein. He's the Oscar nominated for his work editing the film Wicked. We're speaking to him as part of our annual series the Big Picture. You described yourself as a co parent of the film. I'm assuming John Qiu should be the other co parent. What makes him a good collaborator?
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Myron Kerstein
First and foremost, it's trust. He trusts me a lot. In the edit, he likes to say that he captures butterflies or you know, his, his father is, is a chef, a famous chef in Palo Alto. Chef choose and he collects spices and he gives me the spices and ingredients and, and then I get to make this beautiful meal or I get to, you know, not kill the butterflies but you know, make them part of this big beautiful canvas. And so he gives me a lot of, a lot of room to just explore the footage. And it's that trust, that trust. And of course, you know, we like each other. You know, there's a shorthand with us now. This is our fifth project, starting with crazy rich Asians. And I think that just having that trust to be able to explore ideas together and then of course we try to raise each other's bar. You know, since I have met John, he's changed my life. He's really inspired me to be a better storyteller and filmmaker and a better co parent to these babies that we make together. And so I'm really thankful we here.
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Alison Stewart
In New York, we know that Wicked is its own thing, it's got its own universe around it. The stage play, how were you thinking about people who would see this film who were hardcore fans of Wicked?
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Sponsor Announcer
The musical? The stage musical.
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Myron Kerstein
I mean, I was terrified. I mean, it's terrifying. I mean my, my son, who's now 18, saw we. I saw Wicked with him in New York City and on Broadway when he was 6. And, and I remember feeling the impact of that production on myself and my son and in the audience. And I remember seeing Wicked just after, after I'd been hired the first week when Broadway reopene. And I remember that feeling like Beatlemania rock show. I was like, this musical is different than most. It is arguably one of the most famous in Broadway history. And so it is terrifying to be the guardian of this thing that's really important to people. That said, I was really excited too. I was really excited to meet the challenge to bring something that I have as an artist to, to this thing that people love so much. And also, of course I was. I loved the wizard of Oz and I love the Frank L. Bomb books, you know, and so I, you know, all this was part of my own DNA and so I was very excited to hopefully deliver for an audience, you know, but of course at first you're just like, oh my goodness, this is. You can't hide under the sheets on this one. You can't hide in the corner and say, hey, we've got this little indie movie which I've made plenty of wonderful indie movies that you know, 10 people see. And this was going to be different. So it's just me in that challenge, you know, and getting excited and not being, you know, I think so much of what we do as artists is to meet those challenges and to fear is a good thing for us, you know, to conquer fear and to meet that challenge. And I think that's what is exciting about being an artist. And so. But this was a biggie for sure.
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Sponsor Announcer
Let's talk about one of those challenges. Was there a particular scene in the film that went through different drafts, different versions in your mind before landing on the one we see today?
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Myron Kerstein
Well, I think the Ozdesk Ballroom, which is the centerpiece of the film. It's basically where Elphaba and Glinda become friends. And it's a really powerful moment that, you know, on the stage show we go through it pretty quickly. And then on the screenplay, you know, it was, you would say the. These two people bond. But it was really in the rehearsal process where John and Ari and Cynthia Erivo found, found the scene and that was to stretch out these beats and make it feel very awkward and, and, and feel the bullying and filling her ostracization and making the audience work for it. And so in the edit, you know, I really tried to not worried that this was a musical, a fast paced musical, but to really earn the emotion. And so I really worked tirelessly trying to milk the footage of Cynthia feeling Elphabeth feeling alone and abandoned and her trying to find some power in this weird deconstructed dance. And then Glinda making this gesture, this kindness and then that earning some form of bonding and acceptance by everyone in the room. And so I'm really proud of so much of the movie. I'm proud of the action that I that I cut in the transformation scene with Chistry the flying monkeys defying gravity. Popular. What is this feeling? You know, the wizard and I, all those are just incredible musical numbers that I got to be a part of. But the Ozda's Ballroom, this one centerpiece scene, if that didn't work, the rest of the film wouldn't match matter.
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Sponsor Announcer
What was something you Wanted to make sure you captured about Cynthia Erivo in this film.
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Myron Kerstein
I just wanted to make sure I captured what she was bringing in the dailies, which was a grounded performance that didn't, like in the stage show Elphaba kind of seems like a joke in some ways, and she's even in on the joke. And that was not Cynthia's portrayal. She wanted to make sure that she felt like a real person. And that's hard to do in a film that is. Is a fantasy film. And you have, you know, Ariana Grande, who's. Who's playing wonderfully. She's playing, you know, Glinda, who's the mean girl. And of course, you want to lean in towards the mean girl. But Cynthia was like, no, no, I can still exist in this world. Grounded and feel real and. And be a counterpart part to the other characters and just. Just being confident in her performance and not. Sometimes you see someone's performance and you're like, oh, I'm not sure about this. Maybe I should try and manipulate it in a different way. But to. To really embrace what her and John was bringing to me in the dailies and to milk it and to believe in the looks and the silence. So much of the film is about the silences and the looks. Like if I could just make a, you know, a string out of just the quiet looks in this film, it would probably be, you know, half the movie. And so just embracing that. Her being so grounded and so real was something I loved doing.
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Alison Stewart
It was interesting. Ariana Grande showed that she has amazing comedic chops in this film. What is key to editing a good comedic performance?
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Myron Kerstein
It's really difficult because I think comedy is one of the hardest things to cut as well. So some of my editors that. That. That's all they do is cut comedy. And I've had a little experience with that in some of the projects I've worked on. But oftentimes any great actor, and Ari is definitely one of those, and they bring you a lot. They bring you so much material to work with. Like, I would sit there in the edit room just laughing all day of so many different takes. And so I think it's just trying to find it's not being lost in the scene. Remember, there's still a scene even though you're cutting the comedy. And so you got to make sure that you're still telling the story within the scene. And then the comedy should come out of that organically, and that it shouldn't, like, run. Run away with it, the comedy. And so. And Then also, you know, listen to your gut. If something makes you laugh, then maybe there's something there. And then, of course, you know, it's good to test these things on your, you know, different audience members, whether it's like your assistant editors, who's your first audience members, or your. Your friends. And then. Then, you know, test audiences with. With previews, what have you. You know, just sort of getting a sense of like, is there something in your gut that says that. That is make. That is funny and that makes you laugh? And then putting it to work. But it's really challenging. And something with Ari was just a revelation. When I saw her dailies, I was like, oh, my goodness, she's just. She's a movie star. She is a star is born in front of me. And so to see her performance and see how much her comic timing was work, but at the same time, staying in the scene, not breaking character was, yeah, like I said, a real revelation.
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Sponsor Announcer
Her hair throw, all those hair throws, you just kind of had to make sure that you saw it and you realize she's doing this repeatedly.
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Myron Kerstein
And I had, like two hours of hair throws. I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. I just. It was amazing. You know, it's just like, she. Anyways, she's incredible.
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Sponsor Announcer
My guest is Myron Kerstein.
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Alison Stewart
He is Oscar nominated for his work.
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Sponsor Announcer
Editing the film Wicked.
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Alison Stewart
We were speaking to him as part.
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Sponsor Announcer
Of our annual the Big Picture series.
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Alison Stewart
All right, let's go to the opening of the movie.
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Sponsor Announcer
It's no One Mourns for the Wicked.
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Alison Stewart
Which begins with Munchkin celebrating the death of the Wicked Witch of the West.
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Sponsor Announcer
Let's listen.
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Cynthia Erivo
Isn't it nice to know that God will conquer evil the truth we all believe for you.
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Myron Kerstein
No one mourns the.
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Cynthia Erivo
Wicked no one cries they won't return no one lays a lily on their.
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Alison Stewart
Grave the good man scorns the Wicked.
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Cynthia Erivo
Through their lives our children learn what we miss when we misbehave and goodness know.
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Sponsor Announcer
Myron, what did you want to communicate with that very first scene, that very first musical number?
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Myron Kerstein
Well, it's two things. One is how much the Wicked Witch of the west is hated. You know, we want. No One Wants a Wiccan is very challenging because it's not a banger number. What is this feeling or, you know, or something like popular or, you know, or how we finish was Defying Gravity. It's really sort of. There's. There's a lot of anger and hate, you know, and built into that number. And so to communicate that this is a mob, this is a group of people that feel terrorized by the Wicked Witch of the west and that she is singing to comfort them. But also, there's some cracks in there with Glinda that you start to notice that she is. This is actually her friend that she's talking about. And so no one mourns was probably one of the last scenes that we got right because it just was so challenging. People were just like, they're burning this effigy. And that seems so harsh. And we're like, well, that's the point, is that we have to show how much this community is fearful of this and how terrorized they feel. And we have to convince the audience of the symbol of the Wicked Witch of the west and what it means. And then we have to communicate through Glinda that there might be something else to this story. And anyways, it took maybe, like, six months to figure out the totality of that number.
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Sponsor Announcer
Of course, Defying Gravity is the way the film ends, Part one. We're going to play a little bit of it. What do you want people to think about as they're listening to Defying Gravity?
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Myron Kerstein
Think about the words. Think about what Cynthia is saying. She's trying to take back this power, and she's trying to. It's this moment where Elphaba. She's not going to take it anymore. She's going to fight for what she believes in, and she knows that she doesn't have to rely on anybody else but herself to get where. Where she's going. And, you know, of course, I have a lot of pride in that sequence because it's the end of the movie. It's arguably one of the most famous songs in Broadway history. But we start and stop it. You won't hear that so much in this clip, but, you know, we start and stop that number again and again, and we have to hold the audience tight, dramatically as we do that. And there's a lot of emotion that's built in, you know, and they're saying goodbye to each other. Her finishing the. Putting all the puzzle pieces together to finish what is arguably the origin story of the Wicked Witch of the West. You know, she has a hat and the cape and the broom and. And so I'm really proud about how, of course, it turned out, but also that at the end of the day, it's about the words about Stephen Schwartz, you know, vocals, lyrics that he wrote and what it means to this character.
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Alison Stewart
Let's hear Defying Gravity.
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Cynthia Erivo
No, leave her alone. She hasn't done anything wrong I'm the one you want I'm the one you want it's me it's me so if you care to find me to the western sky has someone told me lately Everyone deserves a chance to fly and if I'm flying so low at least I'm flying free to those who drown me Take a message back from me Tell them how I am defying gravity I'm applying high Defying gravity and soon I'm not so mean really now.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, so good.
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Sponsor Announcer
Cynthia Rivo, she sang live for those tracks. Yes. Was that a challenge for you?
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Myron Kerstein
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
Yes.
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Myron Kerstein
Yeah, I mean, it's really, you know, to. To find the right takes as she's being flung around on wires. You know, these big shots of her being flung around. And Simon Hayes, our incredible re recording. Sorry, production mixer, you know, we had to capture this with, like, muted wind machines and, you know, get mics somehow on her. And then you have, you know, I have an incredible music editorial team of Jack Dohlman and Kathryn Wilson, and a rerecording mixer, Andy Nelson. We have to work seamlessly between these different departments. Nancy Nugentitle, John Marquis, just to make this feel like a cohesive unit. And I have to pick with John what is ultimately the right performance to feed all these. These departments. But, yes, it's really challenging to, like, to make sure that you don't get lost in it when you. Again, you have a lot of footage, and then you want to do right by somebody, a powerhouse like Cynthia who's bringing it. You know, you don't want to miss a kernel, you know, and so you have to be really thorough in the process and not be afraid that it's not going to all come together in the end.
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Sponsor Announcer
Two more questions for you. You said that you edited parts one and parts two at the same time.
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Myron Kerstein
Yes. Yes.
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Sponsor Announcer
Is it a continuation of part one or is its own separate movie?
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Myron Kerstein
It's its own separate movie. It's basically the. You know, it's basically the second half of the show with some surprises in there. And so, yeah, it's a continuation of the story. The first film is a lot of setup. It's the origin story of the Wicked Witch of the West. It's also about setting up these problems and choices. And the second movie is about consequences and. And what do we do with them? And. And I think that's really exciting for a. A. For an audience to experience so close to each other a year. A year later. And it was a challenge. I had an incredible second editor on the assembling the second movie. Her name is Tatiana Riegel. To help me out with that assembly challenge because I had so much footage. But within a couple weeks, about a month after we finished shooting, we were able to watch the both parts together in the edit room in Los Angeles. So we've seen it, we've lived it, we've felt the emotion and yeah, just can't wait.
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Alison Stewart
I do want to point out that you have a home in Altadena. Everything okay?
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Myron Kerstein
Okay. Well, we're one of three houses standing amongst thousands of houses that have been flattened. You know, it's. No, it's, it's not great. We don't know if we'll be back if ever. Um, my, my 11 year old attends a school down the block and that's been closed and it's standing but sister school has been burned down. So he just started school Odyssey Charter School north and South. And the incredible teachers and administration there did find some just this week, some new locations. But we're all sort of displaced. You know, my, my neighbors, my family. And yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be years. So please, a lot of love towards Altadena. Don't forget about us. Don't turn the soon.
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Alison Stewart
My guest has been Myron Kerstein. He's Oscar nominated for his work editing the film Wicked. Thank you so much for taking the time and sending all our best wishes to you, your family and your neighbors.
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Myron Kerstein
Thank you so much. This really is an honor. Do you have a car, truck, boat, motorcycle or RV that is no longer of use to you, no matter what shape it's in? You can donate it to WNYC. Even if it's 100 years old, donating is easy. The pickup is free and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn more@wnyc.org car.
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WNYC Studios Announcer
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