Editing the Election of a Pope in 'Conclave' (The Big Picture)

Summary

All Of It Podcast Summary
Episode: Editing the Election of a Pope in 'Conclave' (The Big Picture)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Nick Emerson, Editor of Conclave
Release Date: February 7, 2025
Duration: Approximately 22 minutes
Knowledge Cutoff: October 2023

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It by WNYC, host Alison Stewart delves into the intricacies of film editing with Nick Emerson, the Oscar-nominated editor of the thriller Conclave. The discussion offers listeners an in-depth look at the challenges and creative processes involved in bringing the election of a pope to the silver screen, transforming a sacred ritual into a gripping narrative.

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Nick Emerson’s Journey from TV News to Filmmaking

Transition into Filmmaking ([02:16] – [03:16])

Nick Emerson shares his career trajectory, highlighting his transition from television news to documentary filmmaking and eventually into feature films. He describes the move as a "long process" with numerous stepping stones, including editing short films that gained attention and led to opportunities in feature film editing.

Nick Emerson ([02:29]): "I spent a long time doing documentary film, which is an amazing place and field to learn how to tell a story and draw a story out of some material."

Similarities and Differences in Editing ([03:22] – [04:11])

Emerson discusses the parallels between editing news footage and narrative film, emphasizing the importance of narrative structure in both. He notes that while the pacing and rhythm differ, the fundamental need for a beginning, middle, and end remains consistent.

Nick Emerson ([03:22]): "From a narrative point of view, it's similar. It's still got to have dramatic peaks and troughs and so forth."

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Editing Conclave: Challenges and Creativity

Initial Impressions of the Script ([05:08] – [05:20])

Upon reading the Conclave script, Emerson was immediately drawn to its thrilling nature and complexity, likening it to classic conspiracy thrillers.

Nick Emerson ([05:20]): "It was so thrilling. It reminded me of films like All the President's Men and The Parallax View."

Collaboration with Director Edward Berger ([06:31] – [07:34])

Emerson highlights the collaborative relationship with director Edward Berger, emphasizing the importance of understanding Berger's vision and maintaining open communication throughout the editing process.

Nick Emerson ([06:31]): "It was a lot about being able to develop that relationship and start to understand what his desires for the film were."

Meticulous Editing and Director’s Openness ([07:49] – [09:43])

Emerson provides an example of Berger’s adaptability by describing how they approached editing a sequence of cardinals arriving for the conclave. Berger encouraged exploring different editing styles to enhance the narrative.

Nick Emerson ([07:49]): "He just loves editing and believes that part of editing is to explore every opportunity available."

Editing Rituals and Ballot Sequences ([09:55] – [11:10])

The editor discusses the complexities of editing the film’s ritualistic elements, particularly the ballot sequences. The goal was to portray each ritual uniquely while maintaining narrative tension.

Nick Emerson ([09:55]): "We wanted to make these rituals different every time we visited them, so they were so much fun to edit."

Handling Necessary but Less Engaging Sequences ([11:17] – [12:25])

Emerson explains how he and Berger ensured that every scene served a purpose, even if it wasn't inherently exciting, by meticulously crafting the film’s structure to maintain viewer engagement.

Nick Emerson ([11:17]): "We just don't waste a frame; every frame has to be there for a reason."

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Pacing and Tension in Conclave

Creating a Thriller Pace ([12:25] – [14:56])

Emerson elaborates on the strategies used to maintain a thriller-like pace despite the film’s dialog-heavy scenes. This involved tight editing to sustain tension and swift transitions to keep audiences engaged.

Nick Emerson ([12:47]): "We wanted to keep the pace up and... keep people on the edge of their seats."

Influences and Inspirations ([15:00] – [15:38])

Drawing inspiration from political thrillers and directors like David Fincher, Emerson aimed to emulate effective pacing and suspense techniques in Conclave.

Nick Emerson ([15:00]): "I am a great admirer of David Fincher's films. He creates tension and suspense in a really interesting way."

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Character Development Through Editing

Highlighting Cardinal Lawrence’s Internal Struggles ([15:59] – [17:56])

Emerson discusses the challenge of showcasing Ralph Fiennes’s character, Cardinal Lawrence, whose internal conflicts drive the narrative. By maintaining a close perspective and leveraging Fiennes’s powerful performance, Emerson ensured that Lawrence’s internal struggles were palpable to the audience.

Nick Emerson ([15:59]): "We wanted to keep it in his point of view so much that we see everything through him."

Balancing Supporting Characters ([20:56] – [23:04])

The editor emphasizes the importance of integrating supporting characters, such as the nuns, to enrich the film’s narrative tapestry without overshadowing the main storyline. Careful pacing and strategic placements ensured these characters remained integral to the story.

Nick Emerson ([21:15]): "We were careful that she had to be placed and... she wasn't just somebody in charge of the nuns."

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Recognition and Future Projects

Oscar Nomination Experience ([23:04] – [23:09])

Emerson recounts the moment he learned about his Oscar nomination while in the editing room, highlighting the excitement and validation it brought to his work.

Nick Emerson ([23:09]): "It was about lunchtime and I was there with my assistant editor, and we watched the live stream. What an incredible moment."

Upcoming Projects ([23:30] – [23:46])

He briefly mentions his next project, The Ballad of a Small Player, expressing enthusiasm about collaborating with a talented cast including Colin Farrell, Fala Chen, and Tilda Swinton.

Nick Emerson ([23:33]): "The next film is called The Ballad of a Small Player and it stars Colin Farrell, Fala Chen, and Tilda Swinton."

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Notable Quotes

• Nick Emerson ([03:22]): "From a narrative point of view, it's similar. It's still got to have dramatic peaks and troughs and so forth."

• Nick Emerson ([05:20]): "It was so thrilling. It reminded me of films like All the President's Men and The Parallax View."

• Nick Emerson ([07:49]): "He just loves editing and believes that part of editing is to explore every opportunity available."

• Nick Emerson ([12:47]): "We wanted to keep the pace up and... keep people on the edge of their seats."

• Nick Emerson ([15:59]): "We wanted to keep it in his point of view so much that we see everything through him."

• Nick Emerson ([23:09]): "It was about lunchtime and I was there with my assistant editor, and we watched the live stream. What an incredible moment."

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Conclusion and Insights

This episode of All Of It offers a comprehensive exploration of the art of film editing through Nick Emerson’s experiences on Conclave. Emerson’s insights reveal the delicate balance between maintaining narrative tension and honoring traditional rituals within a film’s structure. His collaboration with director Edward Berger underscores the importance of creative flexibility and mutual respect in the editing process. The discussion also highlights the significance of character-driven storytelling and the role of supporting characters in enriching the main narrative. Emerson’s Oscar nomination serves as a testament to his meticulous craftsmanship and dedication to the art of filmmaking.

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Note: This summary excludes sponsor announcements, advertisements, and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussion between Alison Stewart and Nick Emerson.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here on today's show. Folk legend Joni Mitchell is still going strong, recently performing in LA for Fireade. And she performed her hit song Both Sides now from the album the Same Name. That concept album came out 25 years ago. We're going to talk to NPR music critic Ann Powers, author of Traveling on the Path of Joni Mitchell, for our latest installment of Silver Liner Notes. And we'll get into the science of fermentation with the co founder of noma's Fermentation Lab. That's the plan. So let's get this started with the Oscar nominated film Conclave. It is time for the next installment of our series, the Big Picture. That's when we speak to Oscar nominated people who worked behind the camera to make excellent movies in 2024. And today we're talking about Conclave. The Sistine Chapel might not seem like a unlikely place for a thriller, but the film makes the election of the next pope as exciting as any spy narrative. Conclave is nominated for the best Picture at this year's Academy Awards and stars Ralph Fiennes and Isabella Rossellini who are both up for OSC in acting categories. Also nominated is the film's editor, Nick Emerson, who helped keep the audiences on their toes. You can stream Conclave now on Peacock, and I'm joined now by Nick Emerson. Hey Nick.

[Nick Emerson]

Hey, how are you? Good to be here.

[Alison Stewart]

Glad to have you. From your background, you worked in TV news for many years before transitioning into filmmaking. How did that transition come about?

[Nick Emerson]

It was a long process actually, but I actually started in television news and then ultimately moved from television news into documentary film. And so there was little stepping stones that finally sort of got me to feature films. So yes, documentary film. And I spend a long time doing documentary film, which is an amazing place and field to learn how to tell a story and draw a story out of some material. So I did that for a long time. But I was always interested in trying to get into films and I was doing lots of shows, short films and one of them did quite well. And I was very fortunate that the directors who made that short film ended up being offered a feature film. And they somehow managed to persuade the producers to let me edit it. And that was the start of it.

[Alison Stewart]

Is there anything the same about editing news footage versus editing film?

[Nick Emerson]

Oh, yeah. I mean, the rhythms are different and the way you might cut the picture is different, but from a narrative point of view, it's. It's similar. It's obviously, you know, in news or documentary, you know, there's maybe a shorter arc in terms of the story, but they still have a beginning, middle and an end, which is, you know, true of true feature films. So, you know, it's similar, but, you know, I guess the. Yeah, the form is. Is different, but, you know, the narrative side of things is, you know, I learned so much from making documentary films in terms of, you know, narrative storytelling and drama, actually, because you still apply, you know, when you're making a documentary film. It' you know, it's still got to have dramatic peaks and troughs and so forth. So that's something that I took with me into feature film editing.

[Alison Stewart]

Nick, what was the first film you remember really noticing the editing?

[Nick Emerson]

I remember when I was 14 years old, I remember seeing Taxi Driver for the first time. And goodness knows why my parents were letting me see taxi driver at 14. But I remember watching it and being aware that somebody was in control of the picture and whether that was a director or an editor. But it was the first time that I sort of understood there was a job behind it. And I can actually pinpoint the specific shot. You know, it was a slow motion shot of Robert De Niro's hand moving across a desk sort of, you know, when he was explaining something to Cybil shepherd in office. And I just remember it was like a lightning bolt, you know, it was so unexpected. And, you know, therefore I noticed it and was like, wow, that was. I thought it was so beautiful. And then, you know, from then I just started to watch films from. From that point of view.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking with Nick Emerson, the editor of the film Conclave. He is nominated for an Oscar for Best editing. What was your first thought when you first read the script for Conclave?

[Nick Emerson]

The first. My first thought was, I really want to do this. I remember thinking, oh, my goodness, it was just such a page turner. It was so thrilling. And there was two aspects to it. I remember thinking, oh, I just love getting to see behind the curtain of this process of seeing this very old and very sacred ritual, getting A peek behind the door, I suppose, and seeing it. And then also it reminded me, when I read it of films that I greatly admire, such as all the President's Men and, you know, the Alan Pakula films like the Parallax View. It sort of had that sort of flavor of, you know, conspiracy thriller. And I was very excited by that about the challenges of that and from an editorial point of view. And, you know, when I spoke to Edward, when we had a meeting about the film, we shared those that love those films. So it was a great starting point for our collaboration.

[Alison Stewart]

Should let people know Edward Berger is the director. Now. You edited in London, but you did visit the set. What did you get from visiting the set?

[Nick Emerson]

It's really about just being able to spend time with the director when you visit set. You know, I mean, they're very busy on the shooting days, but I was able to, you know, spend time together on the weekends, you know, looking at the film together. And, you know, I'd never worked with him before. So it's always, you know, you know, editing and directing, the relationship between two people. You know, it's a, you know, it's a long relationship. You spend a lot of time together. So it was a lot about being able to develop that relationship and start to, you know, understand what his desires for the film were. And, yeah, it was great. We, yeah, just were in Rome for some weekends just to, you know, just so I could show him some. Some. Some pieces that we were working on. Although, you know, I did. Although I was in London editing while he was shooting, I would send him scenes that I. As soon as I would have them ready, I would send them over, you know, a secure video sharing platform that he was able to see, you know, how the scenes were coming together at that early stage.

[Alison Stewart]

You said that editing conclave was very meticulous from the beginning, but also that director Edward Berger was open and adaptable. What's an example of him being open to your suggestions?

[Nick Emerson]

Um, just let me think. Oh, yeah, there was. There was one example where, you know, in the beginning we were. There's a whole sequence where the cardinals arrive and, you know, for the conclave and, you know, scripted and the way it was shot, they were separate sequences. And, you know, there was a dialogue scene and, you know, there was scenes of the nuns preparing the rooms. And then there was, you know, scenes of the cardinals, you know, smoking on their iPads and so on and going through security. And, you know, it was like that. And we. There was a dialogue scene that we sort of we thought, well, maybe we could take that out. And then I suggested, well, let's just try and mold all this together and not really worrying about the time and, you know, the chronological chronology of these things. And we just, you know, make it into a montage of all these things sort of coalescing together. But, I mean, that's one example. But he's just, you know, he's very. He's so prepared and so, you know, interested in the detail. But, you know, he. He just loves. He loves editing, you know, and so he. And he believes that, you know, part of editing is to explore every opportunity available because he thinks, you know, we spent all this time and money and all these, you know, amazing crafts people and actors spent all day on set, you know, and it's, you know, we have to do it for them. If nothing else, is just to make sure that we've. We have been so, you know, just examined everything as thoroughly as we can. So he's up for everything, you know, and films, not just in this film and any film films. If you don't go down these alleys of trying things out, you know, you have to do it. Because even if you try one way and it's not right, it might lead you another way, which is right. So it's. You have to explore.

[Alison Stewart]

In electing a new pope, there are so many rituals in this movie. Traditions, steps that must be followed. What ritual proved to be the most interesting to edit?

[Nick Emerson]

I mean, I think the ballot sequences themselves. You know, when. When the men are gathered. And I particularly like the first one, the first ballot sequence that we put together. Edward had storyboarded these, so we had a good idea of the structure. But the first voting scene, we. We played out very sort of deliberately, quite slowly that you see every step that that takes place. And what that did was it gave us the permission and, you know, the ability when we revisit the voting sequences later on in the film that we can be more fluid with them and change them around and change the order of shots and, you know, make them faster or even slower. And that was. We were super aware that we wanted to make these rituals different every time. Although it's the same thing taking place. We wanted to see them in an interesting way each time we visited them. So they were so much fun to edit. And just with those wonderful shots that he shot of all the characters and they're putting needles through paper and all that stuff is such a gift to an editor because it's all very dynamic and you can create wonderful montages with those.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, what was the least interesting but necessary sequence and how did you handle it?

[Nick Emerson]

Oh goodness. The least interesting. I don't know. You know, I think everything, everything that needs needed to be there is there. And if it's not there, you know, if it wasn't interesting, you know, we did try to, to take it out. You know, we always, Edward and I used to always say to one another, we, when we were making this was that we just, we don't waste a frame, you know, for every frame has to, has to be there for, for a reason. So I mean, and they're obviously, you know, in the editor editorial, you know, process, there are obviously always, you know, challenges. And you know, we, I think we spent a lot of time on the, you know, the first 20 minutes of the film, you know, experimenting with structure and making it longer, making it shorter. Because there's a lot of elements that you've got to get going. You've got to set up a world, you've got to set up a main character, you've got to set inciting incident, you've got to set up all these other characters and get all these little plot lines developing and starting. So that was, that was very satisfying to do. But yeah, we spent a lot of time playing with that to get the right combination of those scenes and sequences.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking with Nick Emerson, the editor of the Film Conclave. He is nominated for an Oscar for best editing. Okay, this is really a thriller. This, this film, it reminded me, like you said, it reminded me of all the president's men, the machinations, the behind the scenes action. How did you want to pace the story? So it does feel like a thriller?

[Nick Emerson]

Yeah, I mean, we were super aware of that from the beginning, you know, that we wanted it to be, have a certain pace to it because we were aware it's, you know, it's a lot of, you know, men talking for a couple of hours, you know, so we really wanted to keep the pace up and we knew that would, would just help with the tension and keep people on the edge of their seats. And there was sort of two ways we approached it. One was Edward's approach to shooting it, which was very much in the vein of the, you know, those political thrillers from the 70s you mentioned, which is being extremely rigorous with the shot composition and, you know, holding shots longer and also not revisiting the same shot more than once and creating this very sort of strong architecture. So that the way that his grammar approach to these helped create these really strong scenes that are so. They're so tense because they're not cutting in a way. And then also there's just the overall pace that we spent a lot of time adjusting and looking at. And often the way you do that is. It's often about. It's taking out little bits of connective tissue, as I would call them, between scenes that you just arrive from one scene straight into the next. So you're carrying the tension from the previous scene straight into the next scene without letting the air out by seeing somebody get up, leave a room and. And, you know, go into the next scene. And I've sort of, you know, tricked my brain over the years in terms of watching films is how to sort of assess the pace is. Because you have to watch these films so many times when you're editing them. But I tend to try to look. I call it. You look beyond the cuts. Try to watch it without looking at the cuts, because you've spent so many time. So. So much time perfecting these cuts. But if you try to look beyond that and just look and be aware of the flow of information, the flow of emotion and the flow of story, if you can watch it from that point of view, you can see where the slack is and. Or where there's points that you can really exploit tension. So it's a whole. It's a whole range of processes that we go through to arrive where we did, you know.

[Alison Stewart]

What films did you watch?

[Nick Emerson]

I watched, actually, I rewatched. I mean, all the President's Men, the Parallax View, Clute. I think. What else did I watch? I watched. I'm a great admirer of David Fincher's films. I think he creates tension and creates, you know, suspense in a really interesting way. So I watched. I think Zodiac was one. I watched, and I think, yeah, the Social Network, you know, he's. He's got a real ability with pace and especially, you know, there's quite often a lot of dialogue in his films as well. So I was keen to see he approached those as well.

[Alison Stewart]

So much of the movie is about what's going on with Cardinal Lawrence internally. Ralph Fiennes, he says he doesn't want to be Pope, but, you know, kind of keep that going. How did you help make his sort of. His interior performance rise to the surface for viewers?

[Nick Emerson]

Yeah, I mean, we. We always knew that when we wanted to tell a story, he was the anchor point, you know, he was. We wanted to keep it. Yeah, we wanted to keep it in his point of view so much, you know, that so that we see everything through him. And it's, you know, so. So much of it is about the way that Edward shoots Rafe as well. You know, he. He has, you know, a really. He's got such a strong instinct in terms of where to place the camera, you know, so he, you know, he would place the camera above the back of Rafe's head and not necessarily looking, you know, at his face, you know. And quite often in films, you know, you get access to a character through their eyes. But this was different, you know, but it creates this sort of interesting tension between the camera and the actor. And you can sort of see audience sort of try to peek around the corner to look into the actor's eyes, you know, because they can't see it. So it's things like that and just giving access. And then also, you've just got one of the great actors in the world, you know, that he is just. Rafe is just, you know, so truthful and so in the moment at any given time that it's just the crisis and the situation that he's in. It's coming out of every pore. You know, you just have to point the camera at him, you know, and look at him. And it's being transmitted. So, yeah, we did. You know, I always think when I'm putting a scene together is, you know, I always think about these anchor points in the scene in terms of, you know, definitely somewhere where we need to be. And I just sort of focused in on those. And it was always generally related to, you know, to Ralph and how he was. And Cardinal Lawrence, how he was receiving information, you know, in terms of, you know, because he doesn't have huge amounts of dialogue, you know, it's often just about watching him, you know, receive the information and, you know, the situation that's going on around him. But what. I mean, I just feel so lucky to, you know, to be able to work with that, you know, that performance. It's. You know, I've admired his work for years, so it was a great thrill.

[Alison Stewart]

Stanley Tucci plays Cardinal Bellini, an American who says that he doesn't want the papacy. But later, it seems he does want the papacy. Let's listen to this scene and we can talk about it on the other side. This is between Bellini and Lawrence. As Bellini is arriving for the conclave.

[Nick Emerson]

Father Bellini. Aldo. Am I the last one? Not quite. How are you? Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers? Apparently it's already decided it's to be me. And I happen to Agree with them. What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the papacy. Some of our colleagues seem to want it. What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy? You are more worthy than any of us. I'm not. Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you. Pass the chalice and let it go to him. And I could never live with myself.

[Alison Stewart]

Tell me about Bellini's arc through this film.

[Nick Emerson]

Yeah, well, I mean, that scene in particular really highlights Stanley's actual genius, you know, because that is a scene where you're setting up an awful lot of ideas with a lot of, you know, dialogue explaining things. And he just is so natural, and it's. So you just understand everything that he's. He's. He's feeling, you know. So, yeah, I mean, he starts as somebody who's, you know. You know, I think is, you know, has a strong sense of what he thinks is right and what is wrong in the world and, you know, really wants to do something about it, but is, you know, is worried that he, you know, he doesn't have, you know. You know, he doesn't really want, you know, the, you know, the top job or the pressure of it. And then slowly, you know, through the film, he, you know, he basically realizes that he has to do it, you know, and he has to do it to, you know, keep the liberal. His liberal agenda at the forefront, but then gets sort of sucked into the. The politics of it, you know, in the politicking and. But eventually, you know, through the course of the film, realizes that, you know, you know, he. It's, you know, the ambition of it has. Has got to him, you know, and it's a lovely scene at the end, actually, towards the end, where he goes to Lawrence and apologizes to him for doubting him so much. And it's a really poignant sort of scene between these two brothers. And it actually has one of my favorite cuts in the film, which is just at the end of that scene when they've comforted one another and sort of bonded. And Stanley's character is asked, you know, Lawrence, what his papal name would be. And just at the end of the scene, we cut to this top shot in the Sistine Chapel of Lawrence with the empty. The blank ballot. And here it is. Here's the choice, you know, is he going to vote for himself or not? You know, and it's just. It's a wonderful moment. There seems to be so much about the film that's contained in that one.

[Alison Stewart]

Moment, you know, in the background of all of this is the labor of the nuns who are caring for these cardinals. How did you want to make sure that these women didn't fade into the background? In fact, that they were actually. They were definitely going to be present as the movie went on?

[Nick Emerson]

Absolutely. And, you know, it was something we, Edward and I spoke about when we were editing the film was just about that presence and how we place it throughout the film and that, you know, it's there. And, you know, it's also in terms of Isabella's character, you know, we were, you know, Edward was sure to. When, you know, there's scenes that, you know, she is there in the script that he always made sure to shoot, you know, a big close up of her so that, you know, she wasn't just, you know, somebody, you know, in charge of the nuns, you know, who are preparing all the food and making the beds, that she's, you know, she's there, she's got real strong presence and, you know, and I think sort of in the film, you know, a little bit of mystery as well. You're not quite sure what. How she feels about things. You get a little hint of it when she smiles in the canteen when Cardinal Benitez thanks the women for their, you know, for all the work that they're doing. So, yeah, no, we were just careful that it just had to be placed. And actually, what I always think about these things is, you know, I look at the scene where she does speak and you sort of. At the end where she, you know, reveals to the gathered cardinals about Cardinal Tremblay is, I sort of work back from that. You know, that's the point where, you know, she speaks and, you know, sort of is prepared to speak. So you just work back from that, really. When you're looking at the overall structure and thinking. And quite often when, you know, you go through films, you do track these things, you know, when you. Well, let's just. Let's do a pass thinking about Sister Agnes and where she appears. And we'd look at the timeline of the film and see where she appears. And so it's. It's a calibration, really. But what a wonderful performance. She's amazing.

[Alison Stewart]

Nick, where were you when you heard you had been nominated for an Oscar?

[Nick Emerson]

I was in the editing. Editing room. I'm editing with. I was in London in the cutting room. I'm editing Edward's next film at the minute. So I was there, and it was about lunchtime and I was there with my assistant editor and we watched the live stream. And yeah, I mean, what an incredible.

[Alison Stewart]

And what's the next film?

[Nick Emerson]

The next film is called the Ballad of a Small Player and it stars Colin Farrell, Fala Chen and Tilda Swinton.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh my gosh. Not too shabby a group, I'd say.

[Nick Emerson]

Yes, wonderful, Wonderful. Yes. Very excited.

[Alison Stewart]

I've been speaking with Nick Emerson, the editor of the Film Conclave. He is nominated for an Oscar for Best Editing. Thank you so much, Nick. We appreciate your time.

[Nick Emerson]

A real pleasure. Thanks for having me.

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