Erik Larson's 'The Demon of Unrest'

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – Erik Larson’s ‘The Demon of Unrest’

Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Erik Larson, author
Date: May 21, 2024
Duration of Segment: 00:04–18:08

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Episode Overview

In this episode of All Of It on WNYC, guest host Kusha Navadar interviews renowned author Erik Larson about his new book, The Demon of Unrest: A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak and Heroism at the Dawn of the Civil War. Their discussion centers on the tumultuous months leading up to the U.S. Civil War, especially focusing on Charleston, South Carolina’s culture and the personalities—famous and little-known—who played pivotal roles as tensions escalated, drawing deliberate parallels to present-day divisions and anxieties in America.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Path to Civil War

[02:11–03:15]

• Larson draws back to the early 1800s to explain growing national division:
  • North: Increasingly repulsed by slavery and energized by abolitionists.
  • South: Particularly among South Carolina’s “planter class” or “slavocracy,” a self-justifying belief developed that slavery was positive even for the enslaved.
  • Two diverging moral and social worldviews created a political and cultural powder keg.

“Therein, with this widening rift, lay the seeds of what was to come.” – Erik Larson [02:26]

2. Southern Culture and the ‘Planter Class’

[03:15–06:37]

• The Southern elite, especially in Charleston, saw themselves as modern-day chivalric knights, heavily influenced by the romantic works of Sir Walter Scott and Tennyson.
• Social life among the planter aristocracy was insular and highly ritualized: dinner parties, promenades along the Battery, an air of obliviousness to impending catastrophe.
  • Navadar likens it to “high class living and tuning out everything else.”
• Technological disengagement was notable; South Carolina lagged far behind the North in railway development (“3,000 men in NY railroads, 90 in SC”—Larson [06:37]), partly by deliberate choice, further illustrating their isolationist ethos.

3. Charleston’s Strategic Importance

[07:35–09:27]

• Charleston’s location made it crucial both economically and militarily, prompting substantial fortification by the U.S. government: Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney, Fort Johnson, and the not-quite-complete Fort Sumter.
• These fortifications were originally built against colonial-era threats, not internal insurrection.
• Fort Sumter’s unfinished status when Major Robert Anderson occupied it, and the scramble to prepare its defenses, highlighted the unpreparedness for civil conflict.

4. Real People, Real Voices: Mary Chesnut’s Perspective

[09:27–12:10]

• Larson emphasizes the significance of Mary Chesnut, wife of Senator James Chesnut, as a primary source—a woman torn between her societal role and her misgivings about slavery.
  • Chesnut’s diary was “one of the most famous diaries of American history” and notable for its contemporary tone.

“Anybody who, in a diary back in that period, anybody who, who refers to a fellow society matron as a miscreant is my kind of woman.” – Erik Larson [11:20]

• Larson criticizes the tendency for Civil War histories to relegate female voices to supporting roles, seeking to give Chesnut her own agency in this narrative.

5. The Spark: Lincoln’s Election and Southern Panic

[12:10–13:52]

• Lincoln’s 1860 election incited near-hysteria throughout the South.
  • Despite his assurances not to abolish slavery where it already existed, Southern planters convinced themselves otherwise, viewing him as the “Antichrist.”
  • The Fugitive Slave Act promise: Lincoln pledged to uphold it, but Southern paranoia prevailed.

“You talk about living in a bubble today. That was a bubble that the South was living in at that time.” – Erik Larson [13:33]

6. Leadership Vacuum: President Buchanan and Transition Turmoil

[13:52–16:30]

• Outgoing President James Buchanan, once a successful politician, became ineffectual and passive in office—main goal: avoid conflict and retire peacefully.
  • His inaction created a power vacuum during a perilous moment.
• Lincoln, not yet president until March 4, 1861, deferred to constitutional process and did not act prematurely.
• The drama surrounding the counting of the electoral vote and Lincoln’s inauguration reflected national apprehension—Larson notes a parallel to January 6, 2021.
  • General Winfield Scott, loyal to the Union, deployed overwhelming military presence to prevent disruption during the transition.

7. Lessons for Today

[17:22–17:57]

• Larson draws two sobering lessons from the era’s events, directly applicable to current American political and social divisions:

“When people talk crazy, take them seriously. And … the inconceivable is always conceivable by someone.” – Erik Larson [17:46]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Southern Aristocratic Culture:
  “It was sort of like this fan de siècle culture of dinner parties … almost fiddling while Rome was getting set to burn, but very compelling, very, very vivid social world in Charleston.”
  – Erik Larson [05:49]

• On the Planter Class and Technology:
  “There were actually planters who had at least one planter who had said, no, I don’t want any railroad coming through my land because I don’t want it to disturb the slaves.”
  – Erik Larson [06:37]

• On Lincoln’s Election Anxiety:
  “The South had convinced itself, absolutely convinced itself, that Lincoln was the Antichrist, and that the first thing he would do when he got into office was abolish slavery, which would overnight destroy this southern culture of indolence and charm and chivalry that they had built over the prior decades.”
  – Erik Larson [13:15]

• On Parallels to Modern Day:
  “One interesting parallel to the events of January 6, 2021, was that both of those events—the count of the electoral vote and the inauguration—were, prior to the Civil War, the two moments of gravest national concern. Would they come off okay or not?”
  – Erik Larson [15:15]

• On Lessons from History:
  “When people talk crazy, take them seriously. And the inconceivable is always conceivable by someone.”
  – Erik Larson [17:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:04–02:10: Introduction and summary of Larson’s book.
• 02:11–03:15: Antebellum divisions, North vs. South.
• 03:15–06:37: Southern “planter class” culture, isolationism, and technology.
• 07:35–09:27: Charleston’s strategic and symbolic significance; fortifications.
• 09:27–12:10: Mary Chesnut’s diary and its role in capturing conflicted attitudes.
• 12:10–13:52: Lincoln's election, Southern fears, and political hysteria.
• 13:52–16:30: James Buchanan’s failed leadership, electoral vote tension, and echoes of January 6.
• 17:22–17:57: Takeaways for contemporary America.

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Conclusion

This rich, wide-ranging conversation between Kusha Navadar and Erik Larson dives into the complex personalities, cultural mindsets, and political decisions that defined the nation on the brink of Civil War. By weaving together historical detail, human drama, and present-day resonance, Larson makes clear that the lessons—and warnings—of the past remain urgent today.

Transcript

[Kusha Navadar]

Listener support WNYC Studios this is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. Hey, thanks for spending part of your Tuesday with us. We're grateful you're here. Today we're talking to Jessica Lange, Celia Keenan Bolger and Jim Parsons about their Tony nominated play Mother Play. Then we're talking to poet Mahogany Brown and musician Sean Mason about a new album based on a collection of Mahogany's poems. And then artist Adrian Elise Tarver is going to come by to talk about a new exhibit at the Dinner Gallery. And that's all in the future. So let's get this started with a new book about the lead up to the Civil War. It was the day after Christmas of 1860 when US Army Major Robert Anderson set his plan to guard Fort Sumter in motion. The sprawling sea fort sat in Charleston harbor off the coast of South Carolina, and Anderson raised the American flag for all to see. Anderson's decision to secretly move his garrison from one nearby coastal fort to Fort Sumter stunned South Carolinians who had days before seceded from the Union. The move electrified a growing conflict that now seemed inevitable. Civil War author Eric Larson has written a new book that focuses on the months leading up to the Confederacy's decision to fire on Fort Sumter through the eyes of those who witness the conflict. And you don't have to think too hard to realize that Larson's telling warns of the consequences of deep division, not unlike what we've experienced over the last few years. The book is called the Demon of A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak and Heroism at the dawn of the Civil War. And author Eric Larson is with me now. Hi, Eric. Welcome to the show.

[Eric Larson]

Hi, how are you?

[Kusha Navadar]

Wonderful. Thanks for joining. Before you get into the months that led up to the beginning of the Civil War, you really set the stage. You go as far back as 1807. How would you describe the the national mood in the decades leading up to the Civil War?

[Eric Larson]

Well, you know, the nation was, of course, deeply divided, but by then in that, in that immediate antebellum period, two very important trends had coalesced, if you will, to provide the fuel for what ultimately became the Civil War. On the one hand, you had the north becoming ever more repulsed by slavery and the rise of the abolitionists. On the other hand, you had in the south, especially in South Carolina, among the planting aristocracy, the so called Slavocracy. In the south, you had a countervailing trend where they had managed to convince themselves through the so called pro slavery movement, that slavery was actually a very positive thing for all concerned, including the slaves. And therein, with this widening rift, lay the seeds of what was to come.

[Kusha Navadar]

And you talk about that Southern culture in the book, you make the case that to understand the reasoning for South Carolina secession, you do need to understand the southern culture at the time you use the term planter class and this culture of chivalry. Is that kind of what you're describing with, with thinking about convincing oneself that slavery was okay?

[Eric Larson]

Yeah. In South Carolina in particular, in, and especially in, in Charleston, among the, the planters, the most powerful of the planters of the state of South Carolina, those who held, held the most enslaved people and also held the most political power, there was this exaggerated sense of honor. They, they literally referred to themselves as the chivalry. And, and, and in fact very much adored the works of Sir Walter Scott and Tennyson and so forth. You know, the book Ivanhoe was probably on every bookshelf in, in Charleston. So in this culture of honor and chivalry, they saw themselves as good guys and had convinced themselves again that slavery was actually a good thing. And so whenever the north attacked slavery, as the north began, had by then consistently done, it was hurtful to these guys, it hurt their sense of honor and it really, it really made them, made them angry and made them come to hate. Eventually.

[Kusha Navadar]

The north, you know, the first battle of the Civil War began at Fort Sumter, which is just off the coast of Charleston. But even before the fighting, in the years leading up, it seems like Charleston was very important to the southern cause. What reputation did Charleston hold in the South?

[Eric Larson]

Yeah, what did you learn?

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Eric Larson]

Yeah. Charleston prior, prior to the start of the Civil War had always had a reputation as a persnickety state. You know, some three decades earlier, Charleston and South Carolina had been at the center of the so called nullification movement. This effort by the state to essentially try to get out of having to enforce any federal laws. So it had always been this renegade state, in fact, kind of an embarrassment to some of the other Southern states. Along comes the period, the decade before the start of the Civil War. And things intensified to a point where there was almost no possibility of a peaceful escape from this conflict.

[Kusha Navadar]

Did you learn anything about Charleston's day to day culture while you were researching this book?

[Eric Larson]

Oh yeah, that was a fascinating thing to me. Was that Charleston among the planter aristocracy, it was, it was sort of like this fan de siecle culture of dinner parties and visits to each other's Houses, rides on the esplanade, the battery at the lower ward of the city. You know, it's very much this sort of almost fiddling while Rome was getting set to burn, but very compelling, very, very vivid social world in Charleston.

[Kusha Navadar]

So almost, it sounds almost isolated, a little bit like the high class living and tuning out to everything else. Is that fair or is it just they were so absorbed. Everything.

[Eric Larson]

Very fair, Very fair. It was very isolating and you know, and the planters really didn't, didn't mind that this, this was the case. For example, railroads were the big technology. Telegraph, the telegraph also. But railroads were the big technology in this, in this era. And to give you an idea of the disparity between South Carolina and states in the north with regard to this new technology, the 1860 census shows that in a year in New York State, 3,000 people identified themselves, 3,000 men identify themselves as working for the railroad, and South Carolina was 90. There were actually planters who had at least one planter who had, who had said, no, I don't want any railroad coming through my land because I don't want it to disturb the slaves. You know, this kind of thing. So there really wasn't an isolation.

[Kusha Navadar]

Wow. And one very interesting part of this book was that you include a map of Charleston, including the many forts in its harbor that would, you know, eventually all be crucial in the first Civil War battle. What made Charleston a strategically significant city? You know, its geography and its harbor. Harbor that made it also such a headache for both the Union and the south when South Carolina finally seceded.

[Eric Larson]

Yeah, Charleston was. Well, as you point out, Charleston was a very important port city and always had been. And the United States had established various fortifications in Charleston harbor because of that strategic significance. Wasn't just Fort Sumter. There was before Sumter there was Fort Moultrie, which was another, another fortress designed to repel foreign attack from the sea by France, Britain, Spain. These were still the, the triumvirate of likely significant opponents. Nobody expected to have to deal with an attack from behind by fellow Americans. So there was Fort Moultrie. There was another fortress just off, a small one just off off Charleston Castle. Pinckney, an old revolutionary fort that was. Had fallen into disrepair but would soon be brought back to life. Fort Johnson. And then the showpiece of the harbor, Fort Sumter, or let's put it more accurately, the would be showpiece of the harbor if it, if it ever got finished. Construction of that fortress, a classic sea fortress, 50 foot tall, looming, gloomy, the whole deal. Construction of that one began in 1828 and still had not been completed by 1860 when Anderson made his move, although he and his men worked very, very hard very quickly to make sure that as many of the armaments that were situated in the fort were in place and ready for whatever came.

[Kusha Navadar]

Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Eric Larson, whose new book called the Demon of A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak and Heroism at the dawn of the Civil War is out now. It goes through the preceding months leading up to the Civil War right at the time of Lincoln's election and leading up to there. Another important element, I think, are the characters that you've chosen, Eric. There's one in particular, Mary Chestnut, that I want to point out. You know, the wife of US Senator James Chestnut, who resigned to align himself with the South Carolina secession cause. What's super interesting here is Mary decided to keep a secret diary as the conflict heated up. And you describe it as one of the most famous diaries of American history. Can you go into that a little bit?

[Eric Larson]

Yeah, yeah. And in fact, she is the preeminent female diarist of the Civil Civil War era. Mary Chestnut came from a prosperous planting family. She and her husband lived on a plantation and, you know, benefited directly from the enslaved of blacks in that particular area in South Carolina. But she was a very, very compelling character because she was conflicted about slavery. On the one hand, she understood that she had benefited from it, but on the other hand, she also, there were moments when she was really repulsed by it as well. Like one day in her diary, she, and this is in the book as well. One day in her diary, she describes attending a slave auction and how it really sort of sucked the life out of her day. What I loved about Mary Chestnut is that she's a very contemporary character with a very contemporary voice. That is to say, you read her her diary, and it's not like it screams 19th century. It could have been written yesterday by a somewhat formal peer of ours. Today, Anybody, anybody who, in a, in a diary back in that period, anybody who, who refers to a fellow society matron as a miscreant is my kind of woman. I mean, you know, she's, she's, she's in this diary because she has a very pointed, very acidic point of view about the world. Also, because typically, typically scholars who write, write Civil War history have, have, they've often quoted Mary Chestnut starry and as, you know, an observer of events and so forth. I really felt it was important for Mary Chestnut to be allowed to step forward and be her own person in a book about the Civil War instead of being standard sort of white guy history, you know, white male history. So I loved her. I thought she was a great counterpoint to some of what was going on.

[Kusha Navadar]

And bringing up Lincoln's election is another element that I thought was particularly notable in this book that you wrote. Because the event that perhaps most inflamed the southern cause was the election of Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln. In November of 1860. The hysteria and anxiety was a fever pitch. I mean, some people basically were fearing the apocalypse. Why were southerners and pro slavery Americans so, so distraught about that?

[Eric Larson]

Well, so this, this was a mystery actually to Abraham Lincoln who actually he had, he had a rather limited understanding at first about. Of, of the south. Yeah. On November 6, 1860, when Lincoln was elected, you know, he had made it clear prior to that that he had no interest that he would have no interest as president in disturbing slavery in states where it already existed. And he would also go so far as to honor and have it enforced the 1850 Fugitive Slave act, which allowed planters to go north with impunity to retrieve escaped slaves, which was an act that in particular the abolitionists and the anti slavery people in the north loathed. But the south didn't listen. The south. The south had convinced itself, absolutely convinced itself, that Lincoln was the Antichrist and that the first thing he would do when he got into office was abolish slavery, which would overnight destroy this southern culture of indolence and charm and chivalry that they had built over the prior decades when of course, Lincoln had no such intention. But you talk about living in a bubble today. That was a bubble that the south was living in at time. The.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, you're saying it's definitely a bubble that south was living in at the time. And you know, Abraham Lincoln gets all the attention as president during the Civil War, but he wasn't even in office before South Carolina has seceded from the Union. The man who came before him played a huge role. Buchanan.

[Eric Larson]

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, one thing, one thing is very important to recognize also about Abraham. Well, yeah. First, let's talk about Buchanan. Buchanan. Buchanan is a very interesting character because, because you know, he, prior to his election as president, everything he touched turned to gold. I mean, this, this, this man was a successful politician from the get go. Every race he ran, he, he, he, he was, he was elected to that office and he performed very well. He becomes president and that is no longer the case. He is, he is, he is Inept, he is passive. His one goal as, as the nation. As the conflict between north and south intensifies, his one goal is to get out before some sort of violent conflict arises from the situation. All he wants to do is get to his country estate outside Lancaster, Pennsylvania and call it a day. That's really all he wants to do. And thus there is this vacuum, a vacuum in Washington D.C. in the White House. But there's also a vacuum on the other side of things because Abraham Lincoln, when he's elected November 6, 1860, he is enough of a lawyer, enough of a respecter of the Constitution to recognize that even though he won the election, he was not president yet. First had to come the electoral out of the kind of the electoral votes and then had become the inauguration on March 4, 1860. One interesting parallel to the events of January 6, 2021 was that both of those events, the count of the electoral vote and the inauguration were prior to the Civil War. The two moments of greatest gravest national concern. Would they come off okay or not now, different at that time than on January, January 6, 2021, was that America's commanding general, Winfield Scott. You know, he was a difficult guy at that point. Six foot four, ailing. One guy described visiting him in his office as equ. Into visiting a sick bear. But one thing about this guy was he was absolutely loyal to the United States and he was going to make sure that this count, inauguration came off no matter what. So he filled Washington with troops, cannon, cavalry, and made sure that nothing, nothing would go wrong with the count or the inauguration.

[Kusha Navadar]

You know, it's so fascinating to hear you. Sorry, keep going. Sorry. Keep going.

[Eric Larson]

Happily, both. Both came. Well, happily or unhappily, it depends on your point of view. But happily both came off. And another, another parallel, startling parallel. It's one of the reasons I got into this book. Another, another startling parallel was that the guy who was to do the counting of the electoral votes was Buchana's Vice president Breckenridge, who had had been Lincoln's closest competitor in the presidential election, which had for various reasons devolved into a four way race. So here's Breckenridge who would have every incentive to. To. To screw. Screw it to count. But he didn't do it. He didn't do it. He honored the Constitution and Winfield Scott's troops had provided further backup even though there was in fact a mob who were trying to get in to disrupt the count. But Scott was not going to let that happen.

[Kusha Navadar]

It's really fascinating to hear all of those connections that you're talking about with what happened back then and what we see with January 6th and even just the state of the world today with our country's politics. We've got about 30 seconds left here. As you finished your research and wrote the book, is there any, like, one lesson that you think we could take from the moments of the past as we think about our future as a country?

[Eric Larson]

Yeah. I'll give you two lessons. One is, one is that when people talk crazy, take them seriously. And the second is the, the, the, the inconceivable is always conceivable by someone Good lessons.

[Kusha Navadar]

Eric Larson is the author of the Demon of Unrest, a saga of hubris, heartbreak and heroism at the dawn of the Civil War. It is out now. Eric, thank you so much for joining us.

[Eric Larson]

Thank you for having me. Thanks.

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