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- [00:08]
A
This is all of it. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for joining us. Coming up on today's show, we'll talk about why two of my colleagues decided to listen to decades worth of Grammy Award album of the year winners and hear what they learned. We'll also hear from the team behind a new documentary about ESPN's origin story and and the conclusion of Alison's conversation with Mark Oppenheimer, the author of the biography Judy A Life. That's the plan. So let's get this started with poet Ada Limon. Today is the first day of National Poetry Month. It's a time to celebrate an art form that has the power to inspire. Inspire to comfort and to challenge us. And to help us kick it off, we are joined by Ada Limon, who has served as the 24th Poet Laureate of the United States. In her new book, Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry, Limon makes the case that poetry is not just something we read, but something that can be a lifeline. And she draws on her time as poet laureate to reflect on how poetry can bring people together. Limone is known for bringing both a clarity and emotional depth to her writing, often turning to the natural world as a way to explore grief, joy and what it means to be alive. She's the author of seven acclaimed collections. Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry officially comes out on Tuesday. And Ada Limone joins us now to talk about it. Ada, welcome back to ALL of it. Good to see you again.
- [01:52]
B
Good to see you. Thanks for having me.
- [01:54]
A
And listeners, we hope to hear from you during this conversation about the poems that matter to you and why. What's your favorite poem? Who is a poet that you admire? What poems bring you comfort or joy or just a smile? Give us a call or send us a text at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also reach out to us on social media, all of it, wnyc. So, Ada, let's talk about the power of poetry. We lead busy lives. There's a lot going on in the world, as you well know. There's a lot to sort out every day. There are so many distractions. I'm pushing my cell phone across the desk right now, turning it upside down. Why does poetry matter and why does it matter right now?
- [02:49]
B
You know, I think that we are living at a moment where language feels as if it is being used as a tool for chaos, as a tool for violence and propaganda. And I think that poetry is the opposite of that. I think it's the antidote to that. I think that it is in many ways a sacred but secular language that is used to reimagine breath and stillness and reinvigorate words themselves with the power of music. So for me, you know, poetry has the ability to not just help us slow down and breathe and recognize that there's breath built into every line, but it also truly helps us to recognize that language can be useful again, can be joyful again, and can have a sort of power to bring us back to ourselves, as opposed to being used for again for that sort of negative purpose that sometimes feels as if it's used for harm.
- [04:08]
A
The main text in your new book was presented as your closing lecture as Poet Laureate in the Library of Congress on April 17, 2025, about one year ago. In your introduction, you say, when I walked on the stage in the Coolidge Auditorium in the Jefferson Building at the Library of Congress, our nation was changing in dangerous ways that we were just beginning to witness. We knew what was coming. Can you talk about that moment?
- [04:37]
B
Yeah. You know, when I was first inaugurated as the US poet laureate in October of 2022, we had this large celebration, and it felt like there was this moment of everyone gathering and coming together, and it was very joyful. And then that evening in April of 2025, which was my last talk, we gathered beforehand, many people who walked into the room had been let go, working for the Parks Department, working for the NEA People that day had had their offices raided by doge. It was a complete reversal of where we were three years before when we had this sort of feeling of momentum. And I think I took that stage recognizing that we were heading in a very dangerous direction. And I remember my friends at the National Parks Department saying, you should wear green in support of us. And so I wore my green suit, thinking all the little small ways that we can show up for each other. And yeah, it was a very strange and surreal moment, especially to have experienced the it's opposite in the fall three years earlier.
- [06:13]
A
Did you feel the weight of responsibility for being there to represent your colleagues? And what message did you want to deliver with this address?
- [06:23]
B
Yeah, you know, I felt the weight of responsibility, but also I felt as if all of us were going through it. I really, in the three years I served in that role, I worked a lot with federal agencies, with some of the best federal agencies, including the Library of Congress, including the National Parks Department. And, you know, I think for me, it felt as we were grieving Together. And what I wanted to do was recognize the moment, but also to offer even a small little moment of hope. But not hope as something you have or that someone can give you. But hope is something you do, something that you show up for every day. And like much of my writing, as much as it was for everyone in that room, it was also for myself, as I think many of us know that sometimes when you're having a hard time and you're recognizing the great grief of the moment, what you can do is try to show up for others. And in doing so, you buoy yourself.
- [07:37]
A
That's a beautiful speech and it's a beautiful book. Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry by Ada Limon. And I wanted to ask you how you arrived at that time title for this book, Against Breaking.
- [07:49]
B
You know, I feel like, and I'm sure you are well aware of this, that we keep using the phrase a breaking point. And everyone, oh, it feels like we're at a breaking point. And I kept thinking, what does that look like? And I thought, no, we can't break. We have to move and shift and. And grow and change and meet the moment as new people for sure. But we can't be destroyed by this moment. We can't break. And so I thought, what are the tools that we have? And there are so many. There are so many, even though sometimes it feels like there aren't. And poetry is one of those tools that can help us remember our courage, remember our humanity. And I feel that way about all the arts, that they're a way of showing up and celebrating what's good in us. And it's hard. It's hard to see that. I think, as you know, I mean, in your work, there's so much of what we do that is recognizing the very difficult moment that we're in. And I think we also need to recognize that there is so much good and so many people creating things, making things, whether it's music or paintings or poems. And so that's where the. Where the title came from, was that I felt like poetry could allow us not to break and instead bend and shift and kind of move with the moment and meet it with grace and power.
- [09:32]
A
We're speaking with poet Ada Limon, and we'd love to have you join this conversation as well. Let us know about perhaps a favorite poem, maybe a poet that you especially like to lean on during uncertain times. Give us a call, 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. And let's welcome Charlotte to the conversation in Rye, New York. This is all of it. Thanks for joining us.
- [10:02]
C
Hi. Thank you guys so much for having me on. It's so funny that your conversation just went to. Because the poem I wanted to share is from Andrea Gibson, who recently passed and just had, you know, a whole documentary come out about their life and dealing with grief and celebrating grief. So first I recommend to everyone to see that documentary Come See Me in the Good Light and, you know, short, super short poem of hers called Good Grief. From her book? You bet. From their book youk Better Be Lightning that just reads let your heart break so your spirit doesn't. And just those four simple lines hold so much power. And that is what I find is so amazing and freeing about poetry, is that, you know, three, four, five words can say more than a whole, you know, 500 page book. And they can hold so much meaning and power. And, you know, especially when you know the story that surrounds an author as well, it brings even more, more profundity to it. But yeah, their words stand alone. I just wanted to share that.
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A
Sharla, thank you so much.
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B
I love Andrea and their work has been just so beautiful to experience and that documentary is incredible. So I so appreciate you bringing their poem into the space today. That was really good for me to hear.
- [11:35]
A
And we'll take some more of your calls and read some of your texts. 212-433-9692. This text from Matt in White Plains sang just about every poem in the book. Consolations 2 the Solace, Nourishment and Underlying Meaning of Everyday Words by David White takes readers closer to what it means to be human, whether we experience anguish, care, love, and more. So that's a great recommendation. And let's hear another call. Colleen calling from Putnam County. Welcome.
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D
Hi.
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E
Thank you.
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D
Yes, I'm a school librarian in Westchester County.
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A
All right.
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B
Yay, librarians.
- [12:21]
D
Thank you. Yes, I love my job every day. I'm very lucky to be a school librarian and work with kids and books and literature. And my favorite thing every day. Nikki Giovanni has a wonderful poem. One of my colleagues introduced me to her as a poet. And it's called My First Memory of Librarians. And at the end of the poem, she says, the welcoming smile of my librarian, the anticipation in my heart, all those books, another world just waiting at my fingertips. And that's the kind of librarian I try to be. I have a warm and welcoming vibe in my library. They're high schoolers, so I want them to come in and enjoy the space and be able to decompress and relax and find their love of literature. In my space, I spend my days surrounded by words and books and the wonderful feeling that that can create when you find something you connect with. So that's what I want to share with them.
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A
Colleen, thank you so much for sharing today.
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B
I love that so much, Colleen, because you are changing lives, and I don't know how much you get to see it and experience on a daily basis, but. But you are changing lives, and I hope you know that. And they are so lucky to have you keep doing that work. It's just so needed right now. We need those spaces where we feel welcome and where someone might give us a book or a poem that reminds us not only that literature is vast and opening, but that we aren't alone. So thank you. Thank you so much for that, for the work you're doing.
- [14:08]
A
We're speaking with poet Ada Limon. The new book, it's coming out on Tuesday, so it's almost out. It's called Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry. And I wanted to read just the very opening line here and have you respond. It begins, truth be told, anytime I begin to write anything these days, my whole life flashes before my eyes. I ask myself, do I want to break something or do I want to mend something or simply try to carve out a small place to breathe? Those are some strong opening words to begin with, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. Do you feel like the creation of art right now, even the decision of what type of art to create, comes with some extra weight?
- [14:55]
B
I do. I do. And, you know, artists have experienced moments like this throughout history, throughout time. And it feels as if there are times where your art really is supposed to be something that brings us together and something that might offer someone a thread of survival, a little rope out of the well. And then there are times where you. Your art really needs to disrupt the system and, you know, be full of rage and power and try to shift something. And that's really useful, too. And so I think there are times when you sit down to try to make something and you're really discussing with yourself, with your inner self, where, where do you want to take this? Where do you want to go? What is needed and what do you need? And I think. I think that conversation is something that a lot of artists are having right now.
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A
And let's take another call. This from Terry in Manhattan. Welcome to all of it.
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F
Hi, how are you?
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A
Great. Do you have a poet you want to Mention.
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F
I do. It's Andrew Marvell, the English Renaissance poet. I think all the cool kids are
- [16:11]
G
reading Andrew Marvell these days.
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F
But I like, you know, Andrew Marvell. You know, that was such a great. Such a rich time of poetry, the 17th century in England. But, you know, he was a poet. I think of, you know, first of all, he could be very witty. It was a time of wit, and he was very witty and. But he could be. He could be, you know, funny. I think the poem everybody knows is to his coy Mistress, which starts with that line, if there were a world enough in time, this coy and this lady were no crime. But he also wrote these beautiful pastoral poems, and he just has really arresting lines. And I think, you know, in these turbulent times of pastoral is a nice thing to read. It's almost like being out in nature in a book.
- [17:04]
B
I love that you bring. You brought in Andrew Marvell, and I feel as if there's something very true right now for me that nature poetry, which can get a bad rap as, you know, can it? But I find it. I find it so healing right now. And, you know, when I put together the anthology, you are Here, which is all new nature poems, I was thinking about some of the great poets that I admired who wrote some of those early nature poems. And yeah, I love that you brought that in because, you know, I think about. I think about Whitman. I think about Leaves of Grass, I think about Emily Dickinson. I think about, you know, every time I go to the page, there are moments where I think of Robert Haas's line, maybe it's time to write a poem about grace. And I think, yeah, maybe it's time to write a poem about grace. And I feel as if nature poems are really needed right now, not just for our hearts and not just to feel calm, but also to respond to the new planetary moment that we're in. Whether that's with grief or with wonder, I think that that's really important. So I'm really glad you brought that in.
- [18:30]
A
Ada, I have so many questions for you, but I really wanted to bring this up because a lot of people are intimidated by poetry, right? They can be. Sometimes people feel like they're not understanding what's going on in a poem. And in an interview on Latino USA last year, you told Maria Hinojos that more people should give themselves permission to not understand a poem. I love that. Why is this helpful in our practice of reading poetry?
- [19:00]
B
Well, I think that we've been taught poetry in ways, sometimes by really wonderful teachers, but sometimes by people who. Or even by books or textbooks that make it seem as if a poem has an answer, that it's a problem to be solved. And it's much more like music. It's much more, you know, if you're listening to the radio in the car or if you're listening to, you know, whatever streaming service you use, oftentimes you get to a song you don't really like, you skip it, and then you just listen to another song. But it doesn't mean you don't like music if you skip one song. And sometimes people will read one poem and think, oh, I don't like poetry, and as if one poem represents all of poetry. But the other thing we do with music is we don't say you have to understand it in order to like it. So sometimes what happens is you just need the poem to. To wash over you, to hear its music, to even be distracted by an image. I once had this woman who said, I'm so sorry. I didn't really pay attention to the rest of the poem you read because I started thinking about my own mother. And then I got distracted and I had this whole memory of my mom and when she drove me to an appointment and I said, no, that's wonderful. My poem just made you time travel. Like, that's incredible. That is the right experience with a poem. Whatever experience you're having is the right experience with a poem. And I just want people to have that permission to. To, you know, sometimes get distracted by their own emotional interiority. And that's a beautiful thing, too.
- [20:48]
A
We're speaking with poet Ada Limone here on all of it on wnyc. The new book is Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry. And we're also taking your calls. Join this conversation. Let us know about some of your favorite poets and poems. And let's hear from, oh, let's see. James in North Carolina. Do I have that right?
- [21:10]
G
Yes, sir. Can you hear me all right?
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A
Yes. Welcome.
- [21:13]
G
Thank you. Yeah, I'm James. I live in Brevard, North Carolina, an hour west of Asheville in the scenic Blue Ridge Mountains where my family's been for 300 years. But I lived in New Jersey and commuted and worked in Manhattan for the 10 years before COVID and realized that there was a lack of nature. So going back to the nature poetry, I've always been a fan of minimalist nature poetry, especially. My favorite poem is by 8th century Chinese classical poet Li Bai. It's called Green Mountain. And if I may, can I read it for you?
- [21:42]
A
Yes, please.
- [21:43]
F
Yeah, sure.
- [21:44]
G
It's. You ask me why I dwell in the green mountain I smile and make no reply for my heart is free of care as the peach blossom flows downstream and has gone into the unknown. I have a world apart that is not among men. And there is a silence in those words that reminds me of when I sit by a river and ponder our place in this large universe that there's quiet in between the words that ground me.
- [22:13]
B
I love that I'm thinking of Wendell Berry's the Piece of. The Piece of Wild Things. And that's just so incredible because, you know, when I was doing my project, you are here. We ended up putting a poem by Lucille Clifton in the Smoky Mountains. And being in that place is just so incredible. So I'm really glad that you brought that in because it feels to me like you just brought a little bit of the Smoky Mountains here.
- [22:46]
A
And thank you for that as well. Yes. Let's take another call. Susan in Queens. Welcome to all of it.
- [22:53]
E
Hi, I'd like to read A Coat by William Butler Yeats, which has been my favorite for more than half a century.
- [23:02]
C
Wow.
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A
Okay. Please.
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E
I made my song a coat covered with embroideries out of old mythologies from heel to throat but the fools caught it, Wore it in the world's eyes as if they wrought it Song let them take it for there's more enterprise in walking naked. I just always found when I would think of this, when I was feeling a little show offy and stuff, and it would always bring me back to being a little more humble and a little more introspective as to why. Okay, thank you.
- [23:35]
A
Thank you so much for sharing.
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B
I love that Yeats is one of my favorites.
- [23:40]
A
Are there certain poets, Ada, that you've been thinking about, especially over the past year or two?
- [23:45]
B
You know, the last year I spent a lot of time with Emily Dickinson. And that's a funny thing to say, but I did. It just felt like every time I was looking for a certain kind of feeling or an experience, I just went to her collected and perused and would feel always. I would always find something that moved me. And one of her favorite or one of my favorite quotes from her is that, is that quote, not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door. And I think about that because it feels to me like poetry is opening every door. And it goes back to the idea of all the tools that we need right now and poetry being one of those important tools.
- [24:37]
A
Well, there are so many beautiful moments in your new book, Against Breaking on the power of poetry. I'll just read this one here. You're telling a story about a man who confessed to you that he had been writing poetry privately, Right. Pieces that he never intended to share and you write. It gives me great joy to know people are writing secret poems. And if you are one of those people, I want you to keep going, even if you never hand it to another person. There is power in making private poems. Aren't we all walking around with some unsaid pain or some uncelebrated wonderful.
- [25:20]
B
You know, one of the best things about serving in the role as poet laureate is that I had this sort of misconception that it was my job to go out in the world and talk about poetry. But really my biggest job was to listen and receive other people's stories about their poems or the poems that they love and. Or admit to me that they were secret private poets. And, you know, every time there's a new study out that says no one's reading or no one reads poetry or whatever it is, I don't believe it, because my experience on the road was entirely different. And I just don't think it's measurable. I think it's very difficult to know if someone reads one poem on the subway or reads one poem on Facebook or some sort of social media platform or picks up a book and reads a line or two. And so I wonder if really there's more poetry circulating out there in the world than we know.
- [26:24]
A
Well, Ada, just as we're wrapping up, do you do anything special to celebrate National Poetry Month? Will there be cupcakes?
- [26:34]
B
I just celebrated my 50th birthday.
- [26:37]
A
Happy birthday.
- [26:38]
B
So thank you. So I might pause on the cupcakes, to be honest, but what I do try to do, and I recommend it, but it is very daunting, is I try to write a new draft of a poem every single day for the month of April.
- [26:57]
A
Okay, well, I'm keeping you from it. Get to work. Ada Limone is the former Poet Laureate of the United States. Her forthcoming book is titled Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry. It is out on Tuesday. Thank you for joining us today and happy National Poetry Month.
- [27:13]
B
Thank you so much for having me. WNYC's journalism and storytelling is heard by millions of passionate listeners. Sponsors of our programming gain our listeners attention and their respect. Learn about how your organization can support WNYC and wnyc studios@sporship.wnyc.org.