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All Of It with Alison Stewart
Grandparents Are Taking on More Childcare Than Ever. How Do They Feel About That?
00:31:23
Recent studies have show that grandparents, especially grandmothers, are taking on more childcare of their grandchildren than ever before.
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- [00:08]
David Fuerst
This is all of it. I'm David Fuerst live from the WNYC studios in soho in for Alison Stewart. Today on today's show, a listening party with Matt Berninger, the frontman for the band the National. He's in the midst of his first solo tour with a show tonight at Webster hall and tomorrow at Rough Trade. Below, while also talk about how kids are experiencing puberty differently than they used to. Clinical psychologist Dr. Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler will be here to talk about her new book, the Crucial Years. And we'll also hear about her new podcast from CNN that looks into the psychology of conspiracy theories and why some people will believe the unbelievable. That's the plan. So let's get started with a conversation about raising your kids. Kids, grandparents across the country are finding themselves spending more time caring for grandchildren than they may have anticipated. Grandmothers especially. That's the topic covered in a recent piece by Faith Hill, staff writer at the Atlantic. It's called Grandparents Are Reaching Their Limit. As part of her reporting, Faith spoke with grandparents about their frustrations with the childcare they're taking on and how it has shaped or even stalled their plans for retirement. But some grandparents are not just part time babysitters. Many are taking on full custody of their grandkids. Frances Dodds belongs to one of those families. She's the author of a recent piece in the New York Times Magazine called My Parents Expected to Be Retired and Instead They're Raising My Sister's Kids. In it, she details how her sister's struggles with addiction have led her aging parents to take custody of all four grandkids. So today we want to talk about grandparents helping to raise grandkids in various capacities, why it's happening and what effect it's having on families. Faith Hill from the Atlantic joins us along with Frances Dodds to discuss the story from a personal perspective. Welcome to both of you.
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Faith Hill
Thanks so much for having me.
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Frances Dodds
Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [02:23]
David Fuerst
And listeners, we want you to be part of this conversation as well. Are you a grandparent who has taken on significant childcare responsibilities? Maybe you're a frequent babysitter for your grandkids. Maybe you have full custody. Any way you want to join this conversation, give us a call, 212-433-9692. That's 212-4433 WNYC. And I have to mention before we start, Frances, you recently had your first baby. So congratulations.
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, thank you so much. She is six days old. Today was actually.
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Matt Berninger
Whoa.
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Frances Dodds
Yeah. Today was actually her technical due date so she came a little early, but yeah.
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David Fuerst
Well, happy six day birthday to everyone. Faith, let's start talking about grandparents in a caretaking role. This is not a brand new phenomenon, but are they doing more caregiving these days?
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Faith Hill
Yes, overall, there has been, it seems, an increase in kind of the care that most grandparents are doing or many grandparents are doing. And there's a few reasons for that. And, you know, one reason is just that life expectancy has grown so much that there are more healthy years to grandparent. And then there's, you know, other sort of societal shifts that have been happening. There are more single parents, more working moms of young kids. Child care costs keep skyrocketing. But, you know, U.S. federal policy still doesn't guarantee paid parental leave or paid sick leave. And then also, you know, with intensive parenting kind of becoming the norm, there is just sort of more involved with childcare these days. You know, it's more time intensive and more expensive. So the need for help is just really increasing.
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David Fuerst
So recent studies have shown that nearly 60% of grandmothers had provided care for a grandchild. More than 40% of working parents used grandmothers for childcare help. When my young kids, I had my parents watching my kids when they were very young, one day a week. It was incredible for them to have that connection. They said they were fine with it. Maybe they weren't always. What do you hear from people about this kind of arrangement?
- [04:43]
Faith Hill
I think there are a lot of mixed feelings. You know, I talk to a ton of grandparents who absolutely adore spending time with their grandkids. They want to be involved, but the question is just sort of where the limit is. And they're finding their kids are so stretched, you know, that they are getting asked to do more than they ever really anticipated. Sometimes, like, the agreement isn't quite clear and they just find themselves, you know, not only helping with kind of the fun parts of grandparenting, that used to sort of be the standard, like taking the kid out for ice cream or to the park. But, you know, really like helping with homework and driving kids to extracurriculars and changing diapers, it's just getting really intense.
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David Fuerst
It's a lot.
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Faith Hill
It's a lot.
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David Fuerst
It's a lot. When I think back to those days with a newborn and young kids, I don't remember sleeping. It's very difficult.
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Faith Hill
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's, of course it's difficult for parents, but also for grandparents, as they're getting older, it's more physically difficult. I talk to a lot of grandparents who are just really feeling it. They're exhausted and a lot of them are still working too. Older adults are retiring later than they were in the 1990s, for instance. So yeah, people are being stretched really thin.
- [06:00]
David Fuerst
Francis, I want to hear about the case with your family. Addiction is at the center of this story. Can you tell us more about your family situation?
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, so I'm the oldest of five kids and my parents are in their like right around 60, in their early 60s. And my young, one of my younger sisters has struggled with addiction pretty intensively for the past decade plus. And during that period she had, you know, four children. And, and you know, I'm sure lots of families who have had addiction, you know, as a struggle in their family, can understand that it's really up and down. It's like not a linear thing. But you know, it became clear over time that, you know, she just wasn't really able to take care of the kids who are now 10 and nine. And then the twins are eight. So there are four of them. And so my parents were, who had already been caring for them pretty much full time for a number of years. Nearly five were faced eventually with a difficult decision to sue for custody. So they did this for a number of reasons, but one being that, you know, they just felt like the sort of permanence, the emotional permanence that it led their situation made it a lot easier for them to give the support that they needed to the kids. So it was a really difficult decision though. And you know, you know, one that I think many grandparents in their situation avoid for many years is very common because you really feel the fear that if you do this, it will push your child who's struggling further away. And so yeah, it was really difficult. But yeah, I think they felt it was the right decision.
- [08:00]
David Fuerst
And we're going to take a call in just a moment. If you would like to join this conversation. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. And Faith, what do we know about how rates of addiction and opioid addiction in particular may be contributing to the rise of grandparents raising their grandkids?
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Faith Hill
I think it's definitely a factor. Yeah. And I mean as Frances is saying, it's I think, been a big factor in custodial grandparenting in particular. So yeah, I think one I kind of took away from my reporting is like a parent's struggle becomes a grandparents struggle. So you know, a lot of the things that older adults are dealing with are, you know, related to what their kids are dealing with. And they want to be there for those kids. But it definitely requires a lot of sacrifice.
- [08:55]
David Fuerst
And we are taking your calls. Are you a grandparent who has taken on significant childcare responsibilities? Do you perhaps have full custody? Are you a frequent babysitter? What are the challenges of the experience? What are the joys of the experience? Give us a call, 212-433-9692. And let's hear from Michelle right now in Monroe, New York. Michelle, welcome to all of it.
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Michelle
Hi, thank you for taking my call.
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David Fuerst
Did you have can you hear me? Oh, yeah. Absurd. Do you have a question or do you just want to tell talk about your experience.
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Michelle
More about my experience, because I know in the beginning of this you said, you know, it has been an issue of grandparents taking care of their grandchildren for years. And I just wanted to throw my information in. I'm 66 years old and my grandparents took me from the hospital six days old because my mother couldn't take care of me. She had, she was working, but she had a little bit of mental health issues. And also back in the 50s, there was no daycare. You know, there was nothing. And they raised me. You know, my grandmother was 48 at the time, but still, you know, young grandma, but my grandfather was 61. I had a really, really great upbringing. But the one thing I could always say is it seems different when you're kind of younger when you take them, but you're probably going to pass away before, you know, your grandkids are full on adults. You know, I was 13 when my grandfather passed, but I was 27 with my grandmom. But it's only if you could wish that you would have something more, you know, some longer time with them. But they did the best by me. I know my mother was in my life peripherally. She had, I was like number two of her four kids. And all of us have different dads. You know, there was other issues going on, but I was the only one raised by them, you know, and they decided that they were not letting her take me, you know, and move around like she did. She was moving around from place to place and, you know, doing things that weren't exactly great. But they gave me an excellent, excellent start in life. And grandparents, they never had full custody. They never had anything legal. So anytime it could have been taken away from them, but they did more over and above. And I really wish I had them longer.
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David Fuerst
Over and above, it sounds like for sure. Michelle, thank you so much for sharing those thoughts with us and Frances. Did any of that resonate for you? Just even hearing that from being six days old? You have a six day old right now?
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, for sure. I think that, I think my parents really, like, relate to the feeling of like, getting older. And they definitely are aware that, you know, as the kids get older, they will also get older. I think, you know, in these situations, you just do what is, what feels right in the moment. I think that also it's very difficult. I think one thing that happens and I, you know, when I was writing the story, I actually talked to a number of kinship counselors who specialize in families, grand families like this. They said it's very common for families and grandparents to feel that this is going to be an impermanent solution. Like it's gonna, it's, this is not the way that it's gonna be forever. When they first take the kids. Like, it's, it's something that feels like it's something you need to do right now in the moment. And then over time you realize, oh, actually I really need to take this full responsibility. And that's a hard transition. So, yeah, I, I would imagine that maybe the, the caller's grandparents felt that at some point, or maybe not, maybe they knew that it would be a permanent solution all the time. But I think there's just, there's a lot of emotional transitions in that decision.
- [13:10]
David Fuerst
Faith. I saw you nodding there. Is that something you hear from some people, that when they enter some of these relationships, they think that this is just a temporary thing?
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Faith Hill
Yeah, absolutely. I think some people think that. And then, you know, as years are passing, they're kind of realizing that they're not going to get that time back. One grandmother said to me, you know, someone had told her, in retirement, you have your grandmother go go phase and then your no go phase, you know, so the go go phase is when you're, you know, getting to do what you want and, you know, travel and do all these things that you'd always wanted to do after, you know, you retire. And then no go phase is when you kind of can't do that anymore. You're getting older, it's getting harder. And she was saying she, you know, she thought she'd get some go go phase after her intensive grandparenting. And she was realizing, like that was already kind of slipping through her fingers.
- [14:06]
David Fuerst
Let's talk about multi generational family homes in America as well. There was a time where this was a more common living arrangement. When did we see a decline in households with grandparents and grandkids living in the same house. And I guess the follow to that is, is it making a comeback?
- [14:23]
Faith Hill
Yeah. Well, so it's interesting, you know, in early American history, multi generational living was actually not quite as common as people sometimes think. You know, older adults were people sort of had more kids on average than they tend to today. So a lot of people were still parenting young kids by the time they became grandparents. So the older kids would move out with their kids and, you know, that was kind of a common situation. And grandparents would sort of act as authority figures. And they might be nearby, but they weren't necessarily running around changing diapers. They weren't commonly, you know, all sharing a home. And then when that really changed was the Great Depression, sort of by necessity, there were more three generational homes because people couldn't afford to live on their own and many older adults couldn't. But then even in those cases, often older adults were kind of seen as like a burden and sometimes kind of relegated to like one room of the house. And they might have been helping with childcare, but the historical evidence sort of suggests that it was often not a very happy situation, autonomy and often couldn't get it. They were kind of, you know, grandparents and parents were stepping on each other's toes. So then by the time, you know, around the 1940s, multi generational living was kind of on the decline again. There was the advent of pension and Social Security and a lot of grandparents moved out. And that's when we saw the kind of, you know, what sociologists call the Disneyfication of grandparents where, you know, it's one sociologist said to me, you'll get it if you ever go to Disneyland and you see how many older adults are pushing strollers. Like it became common for the grandparent to kind of get the good parts of parenting and do the fun stuff but not have to be the bad cop or not have to do the discipline or the sort of nitty gritty.
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David Fuerst
Work and maybe doing more nitty gritty work again.
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Faith Hill
Yes, exactly.
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David Fuerst
These days. Let's hear from another caller. If you want to join the conversation, 212-433-9692 here on all of Kathy from Larchmont, welcome.
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Kathy
Thank you. Longtime listener, first time caller, extremely timely topic. Retired in 2016, lost my husband in 2016 and became a full time grandparent for a child born with substance abuse withdrawal. I'm still raising her. She's nine years old. My go go phase has gone. I'm in my late 70s and had to return to work. Thank goodness I'm in a profession where you could return to work without strenuous activity. I don't really mind working, but it's very difficult because your cohorts or my peer group doesn't understand their, you know, their grandchildren go home. Mine doesn't. Mine is here with me 24 7, although she's in school. It's just, it's not how I envision.
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David Fuerst
Not, not how you pictured, like the Disney vacation of grandparenting. Right. Where it's all supposed to be the fun and games. Right, right.
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Kathy
And growing up, what you just mentioned, what your speaker just mentioned before, my grandparents, each grandparent had at different times, a room in our house. And my mother was the caregiver of my grandparents. I don't remember them babysitting me at all. I don't remember an interact. Well, I mean, they were, you know, I interacted with them, but I do not remember their role. And again, I'm 76. I don't remember them being active as I am now, you know, after school activities, play dates with friends, you know, and what do I have in common with the, with the mothers or the other parents in these groups, which is kind of hard on the child. And again, you know, mommy, you know, grandma can't go rock climbing with you and things like that.
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David Fuerst
Kathy, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Frances, was any of that ringing TR to some of the experiences, frustrations with. That your parents are experiencing?
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, for sure. I think that, you know, it's, it's definitely not the way that they imagined this time in their lives going. My parents are both artists. They've always really. And, you know, they, they raised five kids. I think they, they've been raising kids since 1989 when I was born. So it's, it's been a, it's a long time. They have, you know, more time to go. And I think they were, you know, excited to spend the time, like, you know, working on, on their, their personal passions. But, you know, and I, and I also think they really relate to it being kind of, yeah, you're not doing the same thing that all your peers are doing. And I think there's also some, you know, nobody really likes the feeling that you're being, like, pitied or that somebody feel, you know, they've had people have been extremely helpful for them in, you know, friends have been really, have really rallied to support them. And actually I still have two grandparents who are alive myself who now live close to them, and they've helped. But, you know, it's been, I think, hard to to let go of their idea of what this would be like. And, yeah, they can't they can't keep up with them quite the way that younger parents can. But I think that there are some things that I sort of came across when I was talking to different grandparents who are in this position and also to different therapists. And one is just that, you know, they're doing it the second time and they've learned a lot from doing it their first time.
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David Fuerst
Certainly a lot of experience coming to the table.
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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David Fuerst
We're going to have more on this conversation in just a moment. We're speaking with New York magazine writer Francis Dobbs and also Atlantic reporter Faith Hill, talking about grandparents taking on childcare responsibilities here on all of it. Join the conversation, 212-433-9692. Back in a moment. This is ALL of IT on wnyc. We're talking about grandparents taking on child care responsibilities and ask you to join this conversation. We are speaking with Francis Dodds, who I incorrectly said New York Magazine, New York Times Magazine is the piece that you've written. And we're also taking your calls and speaking with Atlantic reporter Faith Hill. And let's hear right now from Roseanne in Montclair, New Jersey. Thank you for joining us on all of it.
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Matt Berninger
Well, thank you for having me. I have a good story. It wasn't easy. I was widowed in my late 50s. I'm 82 now. And I took my I had one daughter well on her way successfully, and then problems with the second daughter. And I took my granddaughter when she was 5. And it wasn't easy. She had a lot of problems around her mother, et cetera, et cetera. However, that being said, he's 37 years old now. We got through it. It wasn't easy. Kind of in my phase of life of go to but I did, I did. I, you know, I liked being with the parents. She's 37 years old. She has she's very successful. And it's a turnaround, and it makes me very happy. I'm glad that I did it.
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David Fuerst
That's awesome. Thank you for sharing, Roseanne, and great to hear about some of the very positive feelings and experiences as well.
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Faith Hill
Yeah, I love to hear that. And I think it's so true. And I heard this from a lot of grandparents I talked to that your life being easy and fun isn't necessarily the greatest goal. And I think a lot of people ended up feeling like as they carried a lot. For their grandparents it was. Or for their grandkids, they kind of, they were no longer the center of their own lives, but in a way that actually felt very meaningful and rewarding. So there was kind of a shift towards, you know, instead of valuing sort of what they thought they would get in the last period of their life, they did have something that almost felt richer.
- [23:33]
David Fuerst
Interesting. Yeah. I mean, we all have an idea of what it's going to be and then life presents a different vista for us. Let's also hear from Susan. Welcome to all of it. Calling in from Great Neck. Hello.
- [23:47]
Matt Berninger
Hi there. Thank you for taking my call. My husband and I are helping to raise our almost 12 year old twin grandchildren. Our grandson has some special needs issues. Our daughter is a single parent. Her ex husband lives out of state, so he's not really involved in so many activities or in their lives. And I work teaching part time. My husband works full time, 79. And I'm with the children almost every day after school, doing homework, driving them to after school activities, doctor's appointments, giving them dinner and so on. And it's with great joy I do it. However, it's exhausting emotionally and physically. We have a very, very close bond with our grandchildren. So that also makes it worth it. And I know I'm doing this for my own daughter.
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David Fuerst
A lot of things make it worth it. Right, but that's a big however.
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Faith Hill
Yes, the however is, I think, a kind of common arc of the story. You know, it can be both at once, like a blessing can also be a burden. But I think that that will resonate with a lot of grandparents.
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David Fuerst
And Faith, how much of this shift with grandparents taking on responsibilities now is due to a lack of resources for new parents?
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Faith Hill
I think a lot of it is, yes. I think, you know, a lot of parents are not asking for something that they don't need to ask for. They're asking because they really need help. And childcare has gotten so expensive. I think also another problem is just childcare being accessible. Like I talked to a lot of people, you know, who were on wait lists for daycares and they just couldn't get off of them. They didn't quite know what else to do. So I think there are a ton of barriers.
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David Fuerst
And Frances, what services have your parents or your family been able to access to help them, if any?
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, so. Well, there's a really great organization called Generations United that provides access to actually to different local communities and organizations that, you know, whatever kinds of issues the grandparents are Having, be they financial or emotional, my parents have been able to, you know, use some state resources to get some funding for the kids, different types of therapy and things like that that have been really helpful. You know, sometimes that is a little bit of a trade off with the decision to get custody or not and things like that. You know, how much you're getting foster, whether the children are actually in foster care and financially. But yeah, they've used some resources like that that have been helpful. But it definitely is a, it is a financial difficulty. It's, it's tough to get what you need all the time. And so, you know, you're sort of figuring out how to make, make it work.
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David Fuerst
And we have time for Certainly another call. 212-433-9692. This is all of it on WNYC Dandy in Brooklyn. Welcome.
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Dandy
Hi. Yeah, I was partly raised by my grandmother. My mom had multiple sclerosis from one basically from when I was born and my father was the picture and I had a stepmom at some point in my childhood. And then also my mom's home healthcare aide did a lot of the kind of everyday raising of me. But my grandma was, I would say kind of my mom in that scenario. And we were incredibly close and I took care of her until she died a couple years ago. And I think for her it was, I mean she really, I think maybe she didn't tell me if she, she didn't enjoy aspect of, ended up ending up being something of a par in her 70s, 80s. But I think it did keep her young and also maybe offered her an opportunity to do motherhood differently and a little bit better because I think like my uncles and mom did not have the easiest relationship with their parents, but the relationship with grandparents can be so different and it was a totally different era. And I think she just was actually able to like kind of hit like redo, you know, and I think that meant a lot to her to do it differently and better.
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David Fuerst
That's really interesting. Thank you for that comment. And Francis, what about that? Do you see your parents parenting the grandkids differently than they parented you?
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, a little bit. And you know, that's something that I've sort of talked with them about. You know, they were really great parents when we were growing up and I think it's just, just maybe some of the things that make them so great now are different than when, you know, like we were saying earlier, you know, part of being a young parent is having lots of energy to throw your throw into Yourself. You know, I think now the thing that they really have is just perspective. Like they, like, you know, like the caller was saying, you know, they can do some things differently. I think a big thing is just patience. And like, my mom talks a lot about, like, you know, like, emotionally modulating, which is like moderating, which is like really important with the grandkids, like just, you know, taking it easy, like learning that everything is not a big deal. Not to take it so personally.
- [29:30]
David Fuerst
I'm still learning that, by the way.
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Frances Dodds
Yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, I, so, so they, they've gotten, they've just, you know, they've come a really long way in terms of just like taking it easy with the kids. And I think that that, and really created a really safe, calming space for them and faith.
- [29:53]
David Fuerst
Just to wrap up, we had a caller who couldn't stick around but had a quick question. What is support for American grandparents like versus grandparents in other countries? Do they get more support than we do here? Is that a national issue that needs to be addressed?
- [30:10]
Faith Hill
Yeah, I think it absolutely is. I think, you know, support for grandparents directly would be great, but another thing that would help grandparents is just support for parents. So, you know, like, I talked to one sociologist who's done a lot of work in Sweden, and he was saying, you know, they subsidize childcare in a way that we don't. And he first thought that when he was doing work there, he would see that, you know, the importance of family was sort of a little bit weaker. And instead he found kind of the opposite, that he found the bonds between family members to be really warm and sweet because there was sort of this weight lifted and people could kind of interact, you know, without quite the same edge of labor and sacrifice. But we're still close and really connecting.
- [31:00]
David Fuerst
Staff writer at the Atlantic, Faith Hill. Her piece is called Grandparents Are Reaching Their Limit. And Frances Dodds, the author of the New York Times Magazine piece, My Parents Expected to Be Retired. Instead, they're raising my sister's kids. Thank you both for joining us today. And again, Frances, congratulations on the newborn.
- [31:20]
Faith Hill
Congrats.
- [31:23]
David Fuerst
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