Podcast Summary: Grounded in Clay: Community-Curated Pueblo Pottery At The Met

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Patricia Marroquin Norby (First full-time curator of Native American Art at the Met), Michael Namingha (Member, Pueblo Pottery Collective)
Date: November 24, 2023
Episode Runtime (content section): ~11 minutes ([01:02]–[12:27])

Overview

This episode centers on the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s groundbreaking exhibition, Grounded in Clay: The Spirit of Pueblo Pottery, the Met’s first community-curated Native American show. Through over 100 pieces—ranging from historical to contemporary—the exhibit showcases the artistry, heritage, and lived experience of Pueblo people. The discussion explores Pueblo sovereignty, the curatorial process driven by Pueblo curators themselves, intergenerational connections, function and innovation in pottery, design elements, and the essential spiritual dimension of the work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Pueblo Communities ([02:39])

• Patricia Marroquin Norby contextualizes Pueblos as 21 sovereign communities, including 19 from New Mexico, the Isleta del Sur in Texas, and the Hopi tribe of Arizona:
  • “To understand all of this and this wonderful, rich history, you have to first embrace the idea that all of these communities are sovereign nations... Their histories reach back well over a millennium.”

2. Community-Curated Exhibition Model ([03:44])

• Michael Namingha highlights the unique, personal approach:
  • Pueblo curators were invited to choose and write about a piece from collections in Santa Fe and New York.
  • Many curators have family members represented among the works.
  • “For my essay personally, I chose a piece by my grandmother... My essay was about my connection to her making pottery as a child with her. And then I’m an artist and so trying to find design language that links us together intergenerationally.” ([03:51])

3. The Power of Ancestral Memory ([05:10])

• Michael shares a vivid sensory memory of learning from his grandmother, including the tactile and olfactory experience of working with clay:
  • “Her hands always had that dried clay on it. And there was also that smell of wet earth in her studio space... Every time I smell [petrichor], I think about my grandmother.” ([05:18])

4. Exhibition Origins & Goals ([06:34])

• Patricia explains the collaborative genesis:
  • Initiated by the Vilcek Foundation and the School for Advanced Research before involving the Met.
  • The primary goal: to “foreground Indigenous voices at the Met” and work collaboratively with over 60 Pueblo community curators.
    • “As a curator and as an Indigenous woman... I saw this as a perfect opportunity to do this and to work collaboratively with... over 60 community curators.” ([06:34])

5. Functionality of Pueblo Pottery ([07:27])

• Michael describes the pragmatic aspects:
  • Seed jars, water vessels, cooking pots, and containers for grain and corn—all with specific uses tied to daily life and communal events like feast days.
  • “They make seed jars, jars for carrying water... vessels for placing on top of the stove for making pozole during feast days, and some for holding corn and grain.”

6. Design, Iconography, and Innovation ([08:05])

• Patricia acknowledges both traditional and innovative elements:
  • Aesthetic designs are transmitted across generations and communities, creating recognizable visual language.
  • There is also an “excitement of innovation”—new forms, motifs, and meanings surface, especially visible in the materiality and iconography of the works.
  • Iconography: Motifs include clouds, rain, lightning, insects, butterflies, birds—reflecting the inseparability of culture and place.
    • “All of these things that are so important to the natural environment... tie them to a particular place. So the works themselves embody a very strong connection to place...” ([08:48])

7. Community Voices at the Forefront ([10:09])

• Patricia points out that all exhibition labels and texts are written by the Pueblo community curators themselves, grounding the show in personal voice and experience:
  • “...all of the labels and all of the exhibition texts were written by the Pueblo community curators... So it’s their voices that are foregrounded throughout the exhibition.”

8. Spiritual Significance ([11:19])

• Michael addresses the spiritual and ceremonial dimensions:
  • Many pots have spiritual roles in seasonal ceremonies and rites of passage; makers imbue a piece of themselves into each pot.
  • “A piece of them goes into each one of those works. And I think when you handle the pieces of pottery, you can feel that.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Patricia Marroquin Norby (on sovereignty and history):
  “You have to first embrace the idea that all of the communities are sovereign nations. That means they have their own governments, religions, languages, and a nation to nation relationship with the US Federal government.” ([02:39])

• Michael Namingha (on intergenerational connection):
  “Trying to find design language that links us together intergenerationally... these pottery pieces speak to us as a people.” ([03:51])

• Michael Namingha (on memory of his grandmother):
  “Her hands always had that dried clay on it... and the smell of wet earth in her studio space. That's a very vivid memory... every time I smell that, I think about my grandmother.” ([05:18])

• Patricia Marroquin Norby (on foregrounding community):
  “As a curator and as an Indigenous woman, it's my job to foreground Indigenous voices at the Met... I jumped at the chance to do this project.” ([06:34])

• Michael Namingha (on spiritual connection):
  “A piece of them goes into each one of those works. And I think when you handle the pieces of pottery, you can feel that.” ([11:19])

Important Timestamps

• [01:02] Start of substantive content; episode intro by Alison Stewart
• [02:39] Patricia defines Pueblo communities and sovereignty
• [03:44] Michael discusses curatorial process and family connection
• [05:18] Michael’s sensory memories with his grandmother
• [06:34] Patricia discusses exhibition goals and collaboration
• [07:27] Michael on the functionality of Pueblo pots
• [08:05] Patricia on design elements and innovation
• [08:48] Patricia explains iconography
• [10:09] Patricia highlights community voices in exhibition labels
• [11:19] Michael on spirituality in pottery

Tone and Style Notes

The conversation is warm, respectful, and imbued with personal anecdotes. The hosts and guests emphasize collaboration, authenticity, and the importance of representing community voices directly, balancing deep reverence for tradition with celebration of innovation and individual creativity.

Summary Conclusion

This episode offers an engaging, multi-layered look at Grounded in Clay, moving beyond art historical context toward a living, breathing portrait of Pueblo culture. The exhibition, and the conversation surrounding it, are marked by collaboration, intergenerational continuity, and the strength of Indigenous self-representation. Listeners come away with a deeper appreciation of not just the ceramics themselves, but the histories, families, innovations, and spirits embodied within each piece.