Chris (4:18)

Part of the argument for legalizing sports betting was to prevent this sort of the black market betting. As you'd mentioned, how effective has legalization been in shrinking that black market on that measure?

Danny Font (4:31)

I think it's safe to say it's been a total failure. You're exactly right. Even in the oral arguments before the Supreme Court and briefs submitted to the court, that was a major selling point that, hey, billions of dollars are going to criminal operations overseas or illegal bookies in the US who obviously don't pay taxes, don't abide by regulations. If we bring this above board, we can snuff out the black market. It's possible. We don't know exactly how much money is bet illegally, of course, but by all indications, tens of billions of dollars still go to those black market operators. And it's a, it's a reasonable question whether on the one hand we've put a dent in the black market because it's now so easy to bet legally in 38 states. But it's also inspired a lot of people to take up betting who never would have hunted down a bookie or bet through some sketchy website in the illegal era. So have we pulled people from the black market to the legal market or have we simply grown the pool of people betting in general? And some of those people, either in states that haven't legalized, will say, hey, I'm hearing about betting constantly when I turn on a sports game. Let me check this out. They might bet through someone illegally, or people start betting legally where it's regulated. And then they say there are a variety of perks to betting through illegal bookies. So I'm going to take my business to the black market. So again, on this key reason or justification for legalization, it just hasn't panned out that way. The black market is thriving to this day.

Alison Stewart (6:14)

This text says, my husband loves watching various sports and gambling small amounts has made it much more fun for me to join him because I have something to root for and am more engaged. For the people who like sports betting, what's their argument?

Danny Font (6:30)

There's no question it's an exhilarating experience. Let's get that straight. It can really turn any, any game, even any bad in a baseball game, any possession in a football game into the most high stakes, adrenaline inducing viewing experience you could imagine, just as long as you put enough money on it. That was the big selling point for the professional sports leagues when behind the scenes, before that Supreme Court decision, gaming companies were appealing to them to change their mind. They had opposed legalization for basically a century, saying it was an existential threat to their sport. And then they saw some studies that showed that gamblers are obsessive consumers of sports. They watch much more than even passionate traditional fans. They watch until the ends of blowouts where the, the winner or loser might have been decided. But there could be plenty of bets that are still in active and you know, you're sweating those bets even toward the end of a otherwise meaningless game. So yes, it's a huge draw. These leagues make most of their money through TV rights deals. So when they saw that data, they said, geez, this could be a multibillion dollar windfall on a yearly basis for us if you add up not just the money we make directly from partnerships with sportsbooks and with licensing certain things to them, but but indirectly through this just this rabid fan base we're gonna create of gamblers. So on that measure, there's no doubt about it, gamblers, you know, are watching all sorts of sports day and night.

Chris (8:10)

We're talking about how sports betting has changed professional sports for both fans and players. My guest is Danny Funt, journalist and author of the forthcoming book Everybody Loses the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. Listeners, we wanna hear from you. How has legalized sports gambling changed your experience of being a sports. Do you play sports bets? What do you think about all the advertising? Do you know someone who has struggled with sports gambling addiction? Give us a call at 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. You can also text us anonymously at that number. This text says, I fondly remember during my high school days in the 70s writing checks payable to cash when I lost to a friend who would then deliver them to an unnamed bookie who I never met. What are the demographics of sports betting? What kind of person is most likely to gamble on a sporting event?

Danny Font (9:06)

It's overwhelmingly young men. Partly due to some neuroscience and psychological explanations. There's a sort of thrill seeking that men in that kind of 20 to 45 age range are drawn to. There's also a lot of marketing that very explicitly targets that age group. So the gender divide in all, in all different forms of gambling is not so skewed. Plenty of plenty of types of gambling, like slots, the lottery, bingo, draws a healthy chunk of women. Sports, on the other hand, at least traditionally, has been overwhelmingly male driven, perhaps even like a 80, 20 split.

Chris (9:46)

One of the kind of bets that seems to be advertised regularly is same gay parlay. Would you explain to us how that works?

Danny Font (9:54)

Yeah. It's become the biggest money maker for these online sports books. And it's an important reminder that although as your listener mentioned, people have always been betting on sports, the ways that they can do it when they're betting online from their phones with just a few clicks of a button is truly a whole new ball game. So a parlay traditionally stacks a number of bets, two or more. All of them have to be successful for you to be paid, but you get paid a much bigger multiplier than if you're just betting on one thing. So traditionally you might go into a sports book on an NFL Sunday and say, here are five winners. That's a five leg parlay. The same game parlay does the same thing, but for only one game where you're saying, I think the Yankees are going to win, I think Aaron Judge is going to hit a home run. I think the opposing team is going to score fewer than three runs. It gives you all these new things to worry about over the course of the game and this opportunity to really grow your money dramatically. You know, some people might say, hey, doubling my money is cool, but multiplying it 10x that, that's what I'm really after. Of course, the flip side of that is that parlays and especially same game parlays are much more profitable for the house, which is why in ads and promotions they're really pushing same game parlays. And if you talk to young people, especially young men, as we were just talking about the, the Core consumer of gambling. A lot of them only bet parlays and same game parlays nowadays because they're chasing that big win.

Alison Stewart (11:37)

Let's talk about advertising. If you're watching sports, you're going to see ads for DraftKings or, or FanDuel. I was interested is there any kind of oversight in terms of advertising, especially with so many kids watching?

Danny Font (11:55)

The industry would tell you there's very aggressive oversight and health experts would say there's pathetically little. So this is an issue that's regulated at the state level. So all 38 states in D.C. have their own rules for everything related to sports betting, including advertising. Some, of course, mandate that you have to advertise the problem gambling hotline in any commercials or online ads or wherever else you're advertising. Some limit the types of promotions that you can offer, some that are especially misleading. The industry has been forced to rein those in. Just recently, DraftKings, one of the top operators was ordered to pay a $3 million refund to Connecticut sports bettors because of a misleading ad. So there are some rules around this, but compared to other countries, even Canada, the rules are extremely loose. Almost anything goes. And as a result, the industry spent billions of dollars on advertising. To this day, marketing is a huge expenditure to try to bring in new customers and keep them hooked. I saw just Today, I think BetMGM, one of the top operators in the country, announced that Derek Jeter is its new pitch man. So you can imagine Jeter doesn't come cheap. And you can imagine a lot of baseball f what he has to say. Seriously. So that's a big win for BetMGM. But is it a good idea to have beloved sports figures and celebrities hawking these products? That's much more debatable.

Chris (13:29)

Let's talk to Bill who's calling in from Jersey City.

Alison Stewart (13:32)

Hey, Bill, thanks for taking the time to call.

Chris (13:34)

All of it.

Bill (13:36)

Great. Thanks for this great program. Both the sports fan and I'm engaged in drug and alcohol prevention, so. But my reason for the call is family and friends no longer enjoy the great play, the throw from third base, the great catch in football, a wonderful golf shot because they need their player or team to win and they're no longer enjoying the love of the game, the great things that happen that sports can be so joyful, exhilarating. And that's what I would argue that's what the we're losing because people are dominated by the need to to get a winning ticket or a winning bet.

Chris (14:18)

Bill, thank you so much for calling in. He Dovetails nicely. I want to talk a little bit about gambling addiction. By the way, the number for gambling addiction is 1-877-846-7369. If you have an issue, what do we know about gambling addiction and betting on sports? What would you say the headline is?

Danny Font (14:43)

I would say what we know is alarming and what we don't know might be even more worrisome because this is a profoundly under researched area. And critics of the industry would say that's by design that by limiting federal research or just independent research of all sorts, we don't know the full extent of the damage that's being done. We do know that in a place like New Jersey, which again was one of the first states to legalize sports betting and has had a large legal gambling industry for decades, the rate of problem gambling is around 8%, which is triple what was expected across the country. So by making gambling so accessible, clearly we've raised the rate of people with serious problems. And the problem gambling definition is a sort of a clinical definition. But there are plenty of people who have a problematic relationship with gambling that doesn't necessarily meet those clinical criteria. It's also a progressive disorder. So unlike some drugs, you might use once and immediately have a problem with gambling, that can happen, but it can also take years to develop a really alarming relationship with whatever you're betting on. So when we see young people, especially nowadays, who can't stop talking about betting, can't stop finding ways to bet, one wonders what it'll look like in five or 10 years when that progressive disorder has blossomed, if you will, and we're finally being forced to take stock with what it means to make this so accessible.

Chris (16:17)

Danny, how has this affected professional athletes at the top?

Danny Font (16:22)

You cited that athletic survey of athletes. I think it was three quarters of them said they've been harassed about something to do with gambling. You know, they cost someone a bet with how they played. I was surprised. It's not higher than that. It's all you hear about is we used to hear about gambling sort of on the periphery. Occasionally it would crop up. It was not on our radar nearly to the extent it is now in stadiums, people heckling constantly online, some truly vile and scary harassment and threats that people get when they cost someone a bet. I mean, I could just list just a laundry list of horrific examples of that sort of harassment people in the pros and in college face. There's also. It's not just threats. There have been people who've been stalked at their team hotel or at their homes. Gamblers who have tracked down people's phone numbers and sent them threats about their kids because of how they played or how they coached a game. And then on the other side of that coin is, you know, one of the biggest arguments for not making this so accessible is basically every decade since the 1919 Black Sox World Series, there have been gambling scandals where players were bribed into doing something to influence bets. And by making it so accessible, by making so many more things to bet on than ever existed, it's just so much ground to cover and police for these leagues. Really an impossible assignment to prevent every athlete and coach and referee from betting now that you can bet on literally every play of the game. So there were two scandals or potential scandals, I should say, just in the last couple of weeks. And everyone who's really on top of that issue says it's only a matter of time before something really disastrous happens that makes fans question the integrity of what they're watching.

Chris (18:19)

You talked to former governor of Massachusetts, Republican Charlie Baker, who signed the bill legalizing sports betting in that state in 2022, and he seemed to have regrets. What did he tell you?

Danny Font (18:30)

So that was one of his last acts as governor of Massachusetts. He left that job to lead the NCAA as its president. And once he'd gone around enough schools and talked to athletes and students, he said this fundamental concept of it's one thing to have to fly to Las Vegas or meet up with an illegal bookie or bet with crypto or some other sketchy method of payment with an offshore sportsbook. It's just an entirely new scenario that you can bet so easily now and that advertising is so relentless. And he said somehow, as basic as it is, he didn't grasp that and his fellow lawmakers didn't grasp that. And he literally said, I wish this had stayed in Las Vegas. I regret joining this bandwagon. So quite brave of him, I'd say, to come out and say that. There are other lawmakers across the country who I've spoken with who indicate they feel the same. And I think it's pretty likely that we'll see a phase of re regulation where states say, we let this get out of hand, we need to tighten the guardrails, because just the looseness of the regulations that we've been talking about today are just too dangerous for players, fans, really, everyone connected with sports.

Alison Stewart (19:51)

We look forward to your forthcoming book, Everybody Loses the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. My guest has been Danny Fun. Danny, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us.

Danny Font (20:02)

My pleasure. Thank you.

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