Helen Shaw Takes Over as Chief Theater Critic at 'The New York Times'

Summary

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All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: Helen Shaw Takes Over as Chief Theater Critic at 'The New York Times'

Date: February 20, 2026
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Helen Shaw

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Alison Stewart sits down with Helen Shaw, the newly appointed chief theater critic at The New York Times. The conversation explores Shaw’s vision for criticism in the digital age, her academic background, the evolving role of critics, challenges facing Broadway, and an enthusiastic preview of upcoming theater highlights for the spring season.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Helen Shaw’s New Role at The New York Times

• Responsibility as Chief Theater Critic (02:12–03:32)
  • Shaw views her role as communicating the deep enthusiasm that seasoned theatergoers have for the art form—leveraging the Times’s reach as both “the big sorting hat” for theater audiences, and as a crucial historian for the theater community.

    "The Times has an incredible reach...to kind of communicate that enthusiasm I think is concomitantly enormous. Another part...is obviously the big sorting hat...you're also trying to...choreograph the way audiences move through the New York theater system."
    (Helen Shaw, 02:17)

  • She underlines the importance of recording theater history for posterity, describing the work as “the first draft of history.”

Criticism in the Digital & Social Media Age

• Impact of Social Media (03:49–05:00)
  • Shaw acknowledges that quick, crowd-sourced opinions on platforms like Reddit, TikTok, Instagram, and BroadwayWorld bring earlier reactions into public view—even as shows are still evolving.

    "People can now go online and quickly get early responses from early viewers...That worries me a little bit...But...it also communicates to all of us that there's a huge audience for that type of responsiveness."
    (Helen Shaw, 03:49)

  • She’s conscious that the Times is shifting towards more forward-facing, video-driven content, and expresses interest in contributing to these formats.

Bringing Academic Rigor to Theater Criticism

• Academic Background (05:00–06:17)
  • Shaw’s education in set design and dramaturgy at Harvard instilled a sense of participating in a “long conversation” about the art. She finds this mindset useful for remembering criticism’s role in a centuries-old tradition:

    "Criticism...remembers that you are having conversations with people who might be reading this a hundred years from now and that you are also writing about a form which has taken several thousand years to get where it is."
    (Helen Shaw, 05:15)

The Power and Limits of the Critic’s Influence

• Responsibility of ‘Critics’ Pick’ (06:50–07:55)
  • Shaw notes the anxiety surrounding the influence of a Times review but cautions against overestimating the power critics have to make or break shows:

    “Sometimes we over index this idea that critics can make or break shows. We have a lot of examples...of a New York Times review being either positive and a show collapsing or negative and a show going on to stupendous financial success.”
    (Helen Shaw, 06:50)

  • She expresses a “terrifying responsibility” about being the historical record, particularly as opportunities for theater criticism dwindle nationwide.

Approaching Theater: Process, Curiosity, and the “Weird” Factor

• Daily Theatergoing & Openness (08:02–10:13)
  • Shaw often sees a show every night, sometimes on a whim, leading to discoveries like a standout King Lear at La Mama.
  • She defends experimental and "weird" theater, arguing that it can more truthfully reflect life’s realities than more conventional work:

    "That sort of work is actually more reflective of what it is like to live in the world...watching that body be dunked into a giant tank of water...gave us all in the audience a sense of what it was like to be her that some normal sort of conventional theater structure never could have."
    (Helen Shaw, 09:20)

  • She describes note-taking as a Zen practice to stay present during performances:

    “Theater is evocative...it is incredibly easy to sit in a show and...begin thinking about your own father...you can't move away from the art if your job is to cover it. And so why I’m taking notes constantly is to remind myself...you are here, you are watching this.”
    (Helen Shaw, 10:34)

State of Broadway: Pipeline, Development, and Regional Influence

• Broadway’s Current Challenges (11:33–13:34)
  • Shaw is concerned about the loss of development opportunities for writers, like the closure of the Sundance theater lab. The current scarcity of new musicals is a delayed effect of the pandemic and lost “soil” for cultivating new work.
  • She praises regional theaters and the rising sophistication in recognizing out-of-town development and the relationship between New York, the West End, and American regional theaters.

Musings on IP, Celebrity Casting, and the Nature of Theater

• Adaptations and the Realness of Theater (13:34–15:21)

  • Shaw sees the popularity of IP-based shows and celebrity casting as part of a larger yearning for “the real”—something increasingly rare in a digital, virtual world:

    “We go to the theater because it is real...those are the negatives. But on the bright side, you know that what you're looking at is real...When it comes to IP, I actually think maybe that's all part of that same network of human need that our screens...have become our lives.”
    (Helen Shaw, 13:56)

• Film and TV Actors on Stage (15:21–16:40)

  • Physical presence and “knowing what to do with your hands” is a key differentiator for screen actors transitioning to stage.

    “IO is going to be great...because IO has clown training...knows how to perform with an entire body. Other people...great faces...But...they look like they’re screaming at us: Bring down the curtain. I feel so awkward.”
    (Helen Shaw, 15:44)

• Are Broadway Stars Bankable? (16:40–17:55)

  • Shaw argues that stars like Audra McDonald have a transformative, almost physical impact on audiences that transcends “bankability”:

    “When you are in the presence of Audra McDonald, that's one of those where you actually feel the molecules in your body realign.”
    (Helen Shaw, 16:52)

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Preview: Notable Spring Shows

Rocky Horror Show at Studio 54 (17:55–20:01)

• Directed by Sam Pinkleton, features a deep and diverse cast.
• Pinkleton’s strength in choreographing “many bodies on stage” promises vibrancy.
• The production focuses on live “theater experience,” not recreating the film.

  “They are so excited about the juicy experience of being in a theater...this is the deepest bench on Broadway that I can imagine.”
  (Helen Shaw, 18:26)

Dog Day Afternoon (20:01–21:14)

• Stars Jon Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach—longtime collaborators.
• The season has a “bring your flares, get sweaty, seventies vibe.”

  “They have been devotees of each other’s stage work and having deep, passionate conversations about stage...We’re about to see how explosive that is when they take it to a really big venue.”
  (Helen Shaw, 20:26)

Joe Turner’s Come and Gone (21:14–22:44)

• Starring Taraji P. Henson and Cedric the Entertainer, directed by Debbie Allen.
• Shaw highlights August Wilson’s ensemble style and Allen’s choreographic vision.

  “It is a great homage to...Freddie King Jr. Who, you know, discovered Debbie Allen...You are now talking about a conversation which is going on more than a century.”
  (Helen Shaw, 21:28)

Documentary and Archive-Based Theater

• Hate Radio at St. Anne’s Warehouse (22:44–24:45)
  • A European-style piece using archival Rwandan genocide radio broadcasts; intensely affecting, with contemporary echoes.

  “They’ve taken...a super episode of...Hate Radio...And so you’re listening to it through these very heavy headphones...it feels like a hand is kind of clamped on your head, and it is saying, remember this? And also, doesn’t it sound familiar?”
  (Helen Shaw, 22:59)

• Kramer/Fauci at Skirball Center
  • Reenacts public conversations between Larry Kramer and Anthony Fauci; described as “absolutely dissolved in tears—very beautiful show.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On historical records:

  “The terror is this might be the one chance we get to write down what happened, and we have to get it right.”
  (Helen Shaw, 07:55)

• On the impact of seeing stage stars:

  “When you are in the presence of Audra McDonald...you actually feel the molecules in your body realign.”
  (Helen Shaw, 16:52)

• On the “realness” of live theater in a digital world:

  “We go to the theater because it is real...Those are the negatives. But on the bright side, you know that what you're looking at is real.”
  (Helen Shaw, 13:56)

• On how she stays present during performances:

  “Why I’m taking notes constantly is to remind myself all the time, you are here, you are watching this, you are thinking about this. You are not thinking about something else.”
  (Helen Shaw, 10:34)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:12] Role and responsibilities as chief critic
• [03:49] Social media’s influence on criticism
• [05:15] Academic background shaping critical voice
• [06:50] Power and limitations of critics’ influence; Critics’ pick
• [08:02] Encountering transformative theater experiences
• [10:34] Note-taking and staying present during shows
• [11:54] Concerns about the Broadway pipeline and development
• [13:56] Risk and value of using existing IP and celebrity casting
• [15:44] Stage presence: what makes a good screen actor on stage
• [16:52] The experience of live performance with major Broadway stars
• [17:55] Preview: Rocky Horror Show
• [20:26] Preview: Dog Day Afternoon and season’s vibe
• [21:28] Preview: Joe Turner’s Come and Gone, ensemble ethic, Debbie Allen
• [22:59] Documentary theater: Hate Radio and Kramer/Fauci

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Conclusion

Helen Shaw’s conversation offers thoughtful, sometimes witty, and deeply impassioned reflections on the art and duty of theater criticism. She is attentive to the challenges facing New York’s theater ecosystem and is committed to maintaining a vibrant critical “long conversation.” Her enthusiasm for new and unconventional work, blended with intellectual rigor, promises to invigorate The New York Times’ theater coverage in the seasons to come.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm grateful that you're here on today's show. Singer, songwriter Jason Isbell is at Radio City tonight and tomorrow, but first he joins me in studio to talk about his latest album, foxes in the Snow. The cast of The Musical, the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, will perform live in WNYC Studio 5. They're down the hall warming up right now and calling all Jersey listeners. We will be taking calls about 50 plus things every jersey kid should do, from diners to amusement parks. That's the plan. So let's get this started with the new New York Times chief theater critic, Helen Shaw. Helen Shaw has begun her tenure as the new chief theater critic for the New York Times. She replaces Jesse Green, who held the position from 2020 to 2025. Helen Tiring follows an already celebrated career in theater criticism from New York Magazine and is a staff writer at the New Yorker. Helen's new gig at the Times begins at a pivotal moment for Broadway. As of 2022, only one new musical has turned a profit, the Outsiders. This season. So far, only two original musicals have opened, even though a few more are on the way. But it doesn't feel like a sure bet. Maybe some shows that began off Broadway like Cats, the Jellicle Ball, and Titanique will have more. As Helen recently wrote for the New York Times, this spring, Broadway theater might have a downtown feel. She joins me now to discuss her new role as the chief theater critic for the Times and to give a preview of some of the spring shows she is most excited to see. First of all, congratulations, Helen.

[Helen Shaw]

Thank you so much.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you see as the role of a chief critic?

[Helen Shaw]

So I come to this place position, having been a critic, as you said, at a couple of other places, and there as here, it's very similar. I think a big part of it is communicating the enthusiasm that those of us who watch a lot of theater have for it. So the Times has an incredible reach and the ability of us to kind of communicate that enthusiasm, I think is concomitantly enormous. Another part of it is obviously the big sorting hat, you know, saying if you're this kind of theater goer, maybe this is the show for you, but maybe not for another person. So you're also trying to kind of, you know, choreograph the way that audiences move through the New York theater system. And then also the other thing that the Times has Always been is kind of first draft of history stuff. As a teacher and sometimes researcher, I've, I've leaned so heavily on the Times for sort of records of the, of the theater going back generations. And so it feels that I think is probably the big and most exciting burden is the feeling that you are not just writing the report, but you're also writing the record.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

You are joining the Times in an age of social media. Broadway, Reddit, Instagram, what have you.

[Alison Stewart]

TikTok. How do you see the role of

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

a critic changing, given in all of the social media?

[Helen Shaw]

Well, the fact that people can now go online and quickly get early responses from early viewers, I have sort of complicated feelings about that because it does mean that people are reading responses when shows are still pretty plastic, still kind of finding their feet. That worries me a little bit. But it also again communicates to all of us that there's a huge audience for that type of responsiveness people. The most common type of search is, is it good? We have so little time, we have so little money to spend on these shows. And so I think that, that, you know, if that helps people find their people, I can only be all for it. It is true that when I came onto the Times, they said, you know, look, there's this, the world is changing. This is a much more, for instance, video driven, digitally driven form than it was even five years ago. And I'm very much, I started January 12, I'm very much starting that process. I have heard the phrase forward facing video. Super interested to involve myself in, but we haven't done it yet.

[Alison Stewart]

You have a background in dramatic academia. You studied set design, you studied dramaturgy while at Harvard. How has your academic experience helped you in your real life as a critic?

[Helen Shaw]

So the thing about academia is that you have this kind of approach to whatever you're studying as an incredibly long conversation. So for instance, when you write a thesis, you're asked, how are you going to add a sort of stone to the pile of human knowledge? You know, how can you kind of move that conversation forward? And criticism. We can sometimes get a little bit locked up in the now sort of, oh, there's a show happening right in front of me. The lead was pitchy, I should tell people. But the academic approach to this remembers that you are having conversations with people who might be reading this a hundred years from now and that you are also writing about a form which has taken several thousand years to get where it is and yet looks incredibly similar to the way it was on the first day in whatever. 446 BC. So it's a. I think that's. That's. To me, that's actually what makes me an academic writer, is that I have a. I'm dedicated to a long conversation, not a short one.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is the new chief theater critic for the New York Times, Helen Shaw. We're discussing her approach to her new role, the importance of criticism in 2026. And we'll talk about a few spring shows Helen is looking forward attending. Of course, there's the New York Times, the critics pick designation. You see it on Broadway posters, you see it in marquees. It's a big deal. And sometimes a review can make or break a show. Do you see that as a responsibility?

[Helen Shaw]

I see it as a pretty terrifying responsibility, honestly. I think sometimes we over index this idea that critics can make or break shows. We have a lot of examples in the very recent past of a New York Times review being either positive in a show collapsing or being negative in a show going on to stupendous financial success. So I think, at least on Broadway, I'm not sure that that is actually. That is as true as it was maybe the Frank Rich era, for instance. At the same time, that idea that you're writing the first draft of history, you are. We are also all very, very aware that there's less and less theater criticism. We obviously know what happened at the Washington Post so recently, but that is just part of a long, long litany of people losing theater criticism jobs. And so I think really, for me, the terror is not so much the critics pick. The terror is this might be the one chance we get to write down what happened, and we have to get it right.

[Alison Stewart]

One of your first critics picks was for King Lear running at La Mama. Tell us about that production.

[Helen Shaw]

So that was a show that I went to on a whim. So I have a sort of obsessive, compulsive need to see a show every night. And I had a free Saturday night, and I thought, that cannot be. I can't develop a social life on this short notice. And so I bought a ticket to this King Lear and it was. It just blew me away. I have loved King Lear. I've taught King Lear, and I've never seen a King Lear that was so totally. That managed to do the things for me that Lear had done for me on the page, basically. And so one of the incredible opportunities that the Times affords that other places I've written maybe haven't been able to respond as quickly is I emailed my Editor. And I said, I've seen something astonishing. Can we crash it in? And immediately, she and the entire time sort of system made that possible, for which I'm incredibly grateful.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

I have seen you at odd shows downtown, and I've been like, hey, that's Helen Shaw.

[Helen Shaw]

Which I thought was great.

[Alison Stewart]

And I thought you might not write

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

about them, but I thought it was interesting that you were seeing that strange show where the woman dunked herself in a tank.

[Helen Shaw]

Mm. Okay. First of all, that show, the woman in the tank, was pretty good.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

That was great.

[Alison Stewart]

She was on our show.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

It was good.

[Helen Shaw]

It was pretty good. Well, I think I would. You know, I sometimes call that theater strange or weird, you know, when I'm trying to describe, for instance, to my spouse why I'm gone. But I am also. I also sort of want to push back a little bit on that. I think that that sort of work is actually more reflective of what it is like to live in the world. That piece that you're talking about was about the feeling of both the middle passage and the experience. It was Issa Davis. It was Issa Davis kind of let me bring you into what it feels like to live in. And so watching that body be dunked into a giant tank of water and then try to keep afloat gave us all in the audience a sense of what it was like to be her that some normal sort of conventional theater structure never could have. So is it weird? No, I think it's actually just accurate in a different way.

[Alison Stewart]

I thought it was a little weird,

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

but I liked it.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Helen Shaw. She's the chief theater critic for the New York Times. We're discussing her approach to her new

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

role and the importance of criticism in 2020. What are you doing during a show? Do you have a notepad out? Are you taking notes? Do you wait till intermission? Do you wait till after the show? How do you do it?

[Helen Shaw]

So I believe in taking notes at everything partially. It's a kind of Zen practice because it keeps you in the moment. So every now and then I've lost a notebook, and, you know, the people won't give it back to me, and they'll be like, oh, you know, your secret thoughts are in here. And I think, well, first of all, good luck. If you open up one of my show notebooks, it just looks like a chicken. An angry chicken covered in. In has been at play inside it. It's just crazy shapes. It's very, very bad transcription. Also, what I'm doing is I'm basically writing down Everything that's happening. And the thing is, theater is evocative. It is incredibly easy to sit in a show and a father comes on stage, and suddenly you begin thinking about your own father, at which point you move away from the art. And you can't move away from the art if your job is to cover it. And so why I'm taking notes constantly is to sort of remind myself all the time, you are here, you are watching this, you are thinking about this. You are not thinking about something else.

[Alison Stewart]

A lot has been said about the Broadway musical being in trouble. So far this season, only two original new musicals have come to Broadway. One closed quickly, the Queen of Versailles. The other is still running. Two Strangers Carry a Creek Across New York. What are you concerned about when it comes to Broadway musicals?

[Helen Shaw]

Well, I mean, maybe it's boring to say the pipeline. We've lost a lot over the last five years. We've lost a lot of developmental opportunities for people who write plays and musicals. So, for instance, Sundance used to have a theater lab. It no longer does. So theater takes a long time to build, so it takes about five years to make a show. So when we wind up in a moment, like right now, we look around, we say, where is everything? Where did everything go? It isn't something that happened yesterday. It's not an election. It's not an economic situation. It's something that happened five years ago. Five years ago. What happened is we lost a lot of development, and I think that when that comes back, we will start to kind of make the soil rich again.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

Do you think that these musicals need more time in Boston, on the road, in New Haven?

[Helen Shaw]

Well, I mean, you know, since we're having this private conversation and no one can hear us, I'm hearing amazing things about Shay Joey, which is down in D.C. so great things are happening places that are not New York. And I do think that that's something we have to get more sophisticated about. We have gotten a little bit more sophisticated thinking about the relationship between the West End and Broadway. But Broadway and the rest of the country, that relationship is going back to something that I think we would recognize from, like, the 1930s, that developmental process. And because those programs have gone away now, we are leaning more and more on the ability of these beautiful regional houses to develop work that the rest of the country wants to see.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

I want to get your opinion about using existing IP for Broadway shows. What are the ingredients you think can take that make a revival successful, and what are the biggest risks in bringing television shows, movies to the theater? Ooh.

[Helen Shaw]

So one of the things I think about a lot, this is going to sound like. I'm not answering your question, and I think I am answering your question. Something I think a lot about and everyone has always thought a lot about, is celebrity casting. What's the deal? And I think that it's. It's the same but different. That we are in a world in which what is real feels less and less like it's under our hand. We look at our phones and what's inside it is sort of real and sort of not. Things that are very terrifying come very close to us, but at the same time, there's this part of our mind that said, did AI build it? So we go to the theater because it is real. It can be embarrassing, it can be awkward. It can make you feel like you're trapped in your seat. Those are the negatives. But on the bright side, you know that what you're looking at is real. And I think that when we ask for there to be, for instance, a celebrity in a show or we're excited to see someone from Mormon Housewives in Chicago, which, by the way, that casting is doing great numbers for them, it's because we are all desperate to be reminded that the real is the real. And when it comes to ip, I actually think maybe that's all part of that same network of human need that our screens, our screens have become our lives. And now we want to go back to having. Having that life be in our life in a three dimensional way.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

We're going to see a lot of people that we recognize from screens. We're going to see Adrien Brody. We're going to see Iowa debery, John Barenthal, Taraji P. Henson on Broadway. These are excellent TV and screen actors. You've seen a lot of screen actors on stage as well. What makes a screen actor good at transitioning to live theater?

[Helen Shaw]

I mean, the easy answer is, do they know what to do with their hands? And the answer is so often, no. Yeah. It really matters if you're a physical performer. So, for instance, IO is going to be great. Sorry, I know that's crazy to make a prediction, but the reason why is because IO has clown training. Right. Comes out of snl, knows what to do with their body, knows how to perform with an entire body. Other people who are stunning faces who are great faces. Let's think about George Clooney, a good example. George Clooney. George Clooney. Every time that camera in Good Night and Good Luck came close to him, you were like, oh, there you are, you beauty. And then you would go back to looking at his whole physical body. And it looked like it was screaming at us. Bring down the curtain. I feel so awkward. So the. And that's not necessarily a fault in that person, but it is. I think the kind of the dividing line is. Do you know that you're also acting with your shoulders down?

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. Do you think that Broadway stars are bankable? Your Audra McDonalds, your Norbo, Leo Butts? Or are they there just because they are talented?

[Helen Shaw]

Oh, well, just because they're talented. I mean, like, you know, what a thing to conceive. I had a student once, so I taught at NYU undergrad kind of a long time. And I always ask my students what they're seeing and what they like and partially as a kind of vampire to find out what's actually going on in their beautiful, juicy minds. But one of them said, oh, that she had seen, you know, redacted show. And she said, I mean, okay, so the singing was great, but anyone can do that. And I thought as a person who sees 250 shows a year, when you are in the presence of Audra McDonald, that's one of those where you actually feel the molecules in your body realign. And when you're saying sort of, what is the job of the critic? I really think there's a way that we can write about that sensation. That we can develop the phenomenological experience of that for the reader. That more people will say, yes, I have to go and see her in person. I have to let my body get changed in that way, too.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking to Helen Shaw. She's a new chief theater critic for the New York Times. Let's talk about what's coming our way. The Rocky Horror Picture Show. It'll run at Studio 54. It stars Rachel Dratch, Amber Gray, Stephanie Suhue, MJ Rodriguez, Luke Evans. So many more. It's directed by Sam Pinkleton, who directed O Mary. Its preview starts March 26th. What elements do you hope that Sam Pinkleton brings to the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

[Helen Shaw]

So Sam is a great example of that thing that I'm talking about, about the whole body. So Sam comes from choreography, Right. Started as a choreographer, I think may maybe. I saw Sam's work first in Dancing Versus the Rat Experiment, which was really weird, if you want to capital W weird. But is a person who knows how not only to deal with one body on a stage, but many bodies. And boy, you can go to high culture places, you know, cough, cough, the Met cough, cough. And you can see how rare it is that people know what to do with a lot of bodies on stage. And there Sam is. He knows how to do it. The other thing is that, you know, it isn't the Rocky Horror Picture Show. That's the movie. It's the Rocky Horror Show. This is back to basics. And I didn't see the revival in is it 2000, I think, with Raoul Esparza, which, God, I wish I had. But when I was going back and reading reviews of it, the criticisms were things like this feels like it's trying to recreate the movie experience. And I will tell you, I have been on their Instagram, I have been somewhat stalking the show, and they are not. That is not what they're interested in. They are so excited about the juicy experience of being in a theater. And you named all these amazing people who are in it. I also want to say, for me, Ananya is going to be the swing who I'm obsessed with. And so it's like, this is the deepest bench on Broadway that I can imagine.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

Dog Day Afternoon, Based on the 1975

[Alison Stewart]

play with Al Pacino and John Cazale as bank robbers in Brooklyn.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

It's gonna have Jon Berenthal, and I hope I pronounced his name right, Ibn

[Alison Stewart]

Mas Bacharach, who's on the bear. I can see his face.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

Previews begin March 10th.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you make of that pairing

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

of two sort of electric actors?

[Helen Shaw]

And not just two electric actors. Two electric actors who have written together, who have acted together both on screen and on stage. They were in a great show called, oh, my God, Small Engine Repair back in the day. And so they have been devotees of each other's stage work and having deep, passionate conversations about stage for as long as they've known each other. And we're about to see how explosive that is when they take it to a really big venue. The other thing is, isn't that wonderful that it's all very 70s, you know, the Rocky Horror is 1973. I think this is 75. There is very much a kind of like, bring your flares, you know, turn off your ac get sweaty kind of vibe. To the season that I celebrate.

[Unidentified Host or Interviewer]

Taraji P. Henson and Cedric the Entertainer are gonna be in Joe Turner's Come and Gone. It's an August Wilson play. Gosh, you have an August Wilson play. What else do you need to make an August Wilson play sing?

[Helen Shaw]

So a deep dedication to an ensemble ethic. So if you look at the cast for the show, beyond those top two Names, I think they're all Broadway debuts. And Debbie Allen, I mean, here we are, we are in an incredible moment for people who are choreographers turned directors. That's interesting. Debbie Allen is another person who really understands what a symphony of bodies looks and sounds like. And Jo Turner's Come and Gone, which is one of my deep, deep favorites. I read it every year with a class that I teach. And that show does not have a star. Instead, it is. You're in a kitchen and people are coming in and out, and you hear them, as I say, kind of symphonically. And so the fact that this is going to be a cast of sort of equals, I think is really thrilling. And I also think it's. I don't know, it's also a great homage to someone who just died, Freddie King Jr. Who, you know, discovered Debbie Allen. And so you see the. You know, I was talking about that long conversation. You are now talking about a conversation which is going on more than a century of people talking and thinking about this play.

[Alison Stewart]

I heard someone talking about this on the subway. Hate radio at St. Anne's Warehouse. It's on through next week. It's a show that uses archival radio material to examine the roots of the Rwandan genocid. What's effective about this show?

[Helen Shaw]

What is not effective about this show? It is. It is a really. It's beautiful, and I would send anybody to it, but it is really difficult. Yeah. And what is happening here is, in the us, this has not been so much a trend. This is more of a European trend, which is using documents and using archive, using real text in order to build a theatrical text. And so they're doing that. They've taken. They've kind of. They've sort of made a super episode of Hate of this thing. Hate Radio, which was. Which was an actual radio station that broadcast, like, go kill your neighbors in the middle of the Rwandan genocide. And they're performing an episode for you. And so you're listening to it through these very heavy headphones, and it feels like a hand is kind of clamped on your head, and it is saying, remember this? And also, doesn't it sound familiar? It's very frightening how this. This 1990. What is it, 94 broadcast sounds so similar to things we might hear today. I also. If I could, I also want to shout out a show that is closing today. It's called Kramer Fauci. It's at the Skirball center, directed by Daniel Fish, who did the sexy Oklahoma. You might remember from a few years ago, this is not sexy, nor is it about Oklahoma. But it is that same kind of document based theater. It's the recreation of a conversation between Larry Kramer and Anthony Fauci. And Anthony Fauci who was at the. I did not see him, but he was really there and at the same time. So what you're listening to is you are listening to a record again of the 90s, interestingly, of what public conversation used to sound like. And I will tell you, I ended that evening just absolutely dissolved in tears. It's very beautiful show and I recommend it.

[Alison Stewart]

Helen Shaw, she's the brand new chief theater critic for the New York Times. We look forward to reading your opinions, your expertise, and I hope you'll come back.

[Helen Shaw]

Thank you. Absolutely.

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