How a New Deal Era Music Unit Inspired a Generation of Folk Musicians

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Kusha Navadar (WNYC)
Episode: How a New Deal Era Music Unit Inspired a Generation of Folk Musicians
Date: June 21, 2024
Guest: Cheryl Kaskowitz, musicologist and author of A Chance to Harmonize: How FDR’s Hidden Music Unit Sought to Save America from the Great Depression, One Song at a Time

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a little-known chapter from the New Deal era: a government-sponsored “Music Unit" that used folk music as a tool for social recovery after the Great Depression. Musicologist Cheryl Kaskowitz joins to discuss her deep-dive research into the program's origins, operations, political climate, and cultural legacy—especially its influence on the mid-20th century folk revival. The conversation blends historical narrative, archival audio examples, and personal insights into how music binds communities and shapes national identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Music Unit & Its Key Figures

• The Music Unit began in New York City, forming out of jam sessions on West 8th Street hosted by artist Thomas Benton.
• Charles Seeger (musicologist and avant-garde composer), Ruth Crawford Seeger, and Margaret Valiant (Southern musician and activist) were core to its genesis.
• Quote:

  “Charles Seeger. It was where he discovered American folk music. He really hadn’t known about it before... And he and his wife Ruth Crawford Seeger... discovered these recordings and the music that the Harmonica Rascals played.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 04:02)

2. The Resettlement Administration & Unique Approach

• The Music Unit was housed under the Resettlement Administration (RA), not the better-known WPA.
• The RA's scope: Experimentation with communal “homesteads” for families affected by the Great Depression, focusing on cooperative living and rebuilding morale.
• Music was used not merely to employ musicians, but as a social glue to help homestead communities bond.
• Quote:

  "It was really using music... as a social use of music to form community."
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 07:17)

3. Political Context and Secrecy

• The unit operated under the radar due to political sensitivity—cooperative initiatives were seen by critics as borderline socialism.
• Much correspondence was marked "confidential" to avoid controversy.
• Quote:

  “A lot of the correspondence... was marked confidential, sometimes very confidential.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 08:42)

4. Why Folk Music?

• Folk was chosen for its “expression of the people” quality, resonating with both FDR and Eleanor Roosevelt.
• Charles Seeger’s vision: collect and play the music already embedded within these communities rather than import outside genres.

5. Fieldwork & Recordings (with Audio Clips)

• The Music Unit collected over 800 songs (e.g., “Old Blue,” “Goin’ Down the Road Feeling Bad,” and “Rockabye Baby”).
• The technical side: field workers lugged 150-pound disc-cutting machines and heavy aluminum discs into rural areas.
• Margaret Valiant and Sidney Robertson were notable field collectors, with Robertson especially focused on music as it was used in everyday life and labor activism.
• Quote:

  “Sidney Robertson... was really interested in not necessarily finding, you know, the performers in a group, but how was music being used? What everyday songs... These were protest songs, which she actually had to be even quieter about.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 16:26)

6. Race, Segregation, and Integration through Music

• The program existed within the Jim Crow South, so most homesteads engaged by the Music Unit were segregated.
• The official line was inclusivity, but in practice, implementation deferred to local "social customs."
• A listener’s text prompted discussion about the subtle integration of Black music into white traditions:

  “They had a kind of romanticized... idea about white folk music from Appalachia, which was not true. That music came just as much from Black traditions as white traditions... You can’t actually segregate music in the way that they hoped to.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 19:10)

7. Demise of the Music Unit & Political Shifts

• The Resettlement Administration was absorbed into the Department of Agriculture, becoming the Farm Security Administration, and non-agricultural programs like the Music Unit were dissolved.
• Political controversy and backlash against "radical" programs, coupled with shifting coalitions in Congress, sealed its fate.
• Quote:

  "There was a growing coalition of Southern Democrats and conservative Republicans who were pushing back against a lot of the most... radical ideas from the New Deal."
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 20:57)

8. Influence on the Folk Revival

• The recordings and ethos of the Music Unit directly influenced the folk music revival of the 1950s and 1960s.
• Charles Seeger was Pete Seeger’s father; Alan Lomax, whose work was pivotal in the folk revival, was involved in this scene and helped train field collectors like Sidney Robertson.
• Pete Seeger grew up listening to these recordings, and the song sheets made by his father matched his later repertoire.
• Quote:

  “What I say is the fingerprints are all over the folk revival, if you know where to look.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 22:59)

9. Archival Experience & Preservation

• Cheryl Kaskowitz describes the profound feeling of sitting in the Library of Congress, listening to scratchy reel-to-reel transfers of these historic discs.
• She encourages listeners with family connections or stories about the recordings to reach out via her website.
• Quote:

  “It felt like such a gift to be able to do that.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 25:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music as Social Glue:

  “It was really using music... as a social use of music to form community.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 07:17)

• On the Political Risks:

  “A lot of the correspondence... was marked confidential, sometimes very confidential.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 08:42)

• On Race and Segregation:

  “You can’t actually segregate music in the way that they hoped to.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 19:10)

• On the Unit’s Influence:

  “The fingerprints are all over the folk revival, if you know where to look.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 22:59)

• Personal Connection:

  “It felt like such a gift to be able to do that.”
  (Cheryl Kaskowitz, 25:41)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:02 — Introduction of the episode’s topic
• 03:38 — Background of the Music Unit’s founders
• 05:27 — Explanation of the Resettlement Administration’s scope
• 07:17 — Music as a social function for community building
• 08:42 — The secrecy and political sensitivities
• 10:49 — Focus on geographic areas (Appalachia and the South)
• 13:56 — Sample song: “Goin’ Down the Road Feeling Bad”
• 15:40 — Sample song: “Rockabye Baby”
• 17:47 — Segregation in the program
• 19:10 — Subtle integration of Black musical influences
• 20:12 — Ending of the program and politics
• 22:01 — Direct lines to the folk revival (Pete Seeger, Lomax)
• 25:41 — Kaskowitz’s personal reflections on archival listening
• 25:51 — How listeners can connect with Kaskowitz

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Conclusion

This episode shines a light on a nearly forgotten social experiment—a government-backed folk music initiative that both reflected and shaped American attitudes about art, identity, and community during the Great Depression. Cheryl Kaskowitz’s research both recovers long-lost songs and traces their influence on pivotal figures of the folk revival, demonstrating how music’s power reaches far beyond entertainment, fostering solidarity and cultural legacy across troubled times.

For more on the subject, visit Cheryl Kaskowitz’s website for recordings and contact, or see her at the Roosevelt Reading Festival at the FDR Library.

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Transcript

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[Kusha Navadar]

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[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

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[Kusha Navadar]

Listener support at.

[Uncle]

WNYC Studios.

[Kusha Navadar]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar and I'm glad that you're spending part of your Friday with us. We're going to talk now about some forgotten history. Years before the folk revival movement of the 1960s, a lesser known New Deal era program recorded some music which in a way inspired the next generation of folk musicians. The US Music Unit was formed in the aftermath of the Great Depression with a goal of using music as a social function to help uplift hurting Americans. The staff of the Music Unit traveled around the country recording songs and putting on shows. Overall, the Unit recorded over 800 songs like this one. That was the song Old Blue. It was recorded by the Music unit sometime between 1938 and 39. Musicologist Cheryl Kaskowitz has written a book Uncovering the history of this music unit. It's called A chance to how FDR's hidden music unit Sought To Save America from the Great Depression, One Song at a Time. Kaskowitz will be at the Roosevelt Reading Festival tomorrow at the FDR Library in Hyde Park. But now we're lucky that she's with me in studio. Hey, Cheryl, welcome to wnyc.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

[Kusha Navadar]

It's a pleasure to have you here. I'm so excited to talk about this music, this, this, this archive that you've unearthed. And I want to talk about the beginning, the origins of it. So the story of the music unit begins with the stories of three important people. There's Charles Seeger, or Charlie as he was known. There's Ruth Crawford and Margaret Valiant. Can you just tell us about them, how they that led to the genesis of the music unit?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. And it starts here in New York, not far from Your Studios, West 8th Street. The artist Thomas Benton had these jam sessions. He had a band called the Harmonica Rascals, and he recruited some of his art students, including the Pollock brothers. Charles Pollock, who becomes a character in my book. His, his little brother is a little better known. Jackson Pollock and Charles Seeger. It was where he discovered American folk music. He really hadn't known about it before. He was a musicologist and a composer, an avant garde composer. And he and his wife, Ruth Crawford Seeger, went to these and discovered his recordings and the music that the Harmonica Rascals played. And another friend of theirs named Margaret Valiant, who was from the south, so it wasn't new for her, but she also came to these sessions. And so in my book, I talk about how that was sort of the birthplace of the music unit.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. And you know, it's founded as part of the New Deal. But before we get there, I want to learn more about the department in which the music unit was held. It was the Resettlement administration or the RA. Right. What was the RA's deal within the New Deal?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yeah, exactly. I think a lot of people assume that arts in the New Deal is coming from the wpa. That's what most people are familiar with. But this was something completely different. The Resettlement Administration was this huge agency that was responsible for all of the things dealing with the rural poor, but it did so much more than that. And one of the things was it created government built homesteads where they invited people from what they called stranded populations to come and just start over on these new homesteads in these rural areas outside of cities. And the idea Was let's create something new. And it really. They even talked about it as experimental and radical at the time, because the idea behind it was from probably the more progressive thread of thinking during the New Deal, which was let's form cooperatives.

[Kusha Navadar]

And so these created the communities in which they would go visit the music. Or how did the homesteads help form the music unit?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Right. So what happened was they, they started building these music units. I mean, sorry, they started building these homesteads and people would apply to go and live there, start over. They were coming from cities, they were coming from, you know, mining towns, farms where their, their farms had failed and morale was incredibly low because, you know, it was just starting out. Their houses weren't built, and it's hard to start a, a community from scratch. And so literally the people running these homesteads said, we need music.

[Kusha Navadar]

Wow.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

And so that's where it came from. So it wasn't about hiring musicians, you know, to, to give them work. It was really using music. It was this idea of a social use of music to form community.

[Kusha Navadar]

Is that why it was founded within the Resettlement administration? Because that's where the demand was?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Exactly, yeah. And so they're job was to go out to these homesteads and help lead music activities. And there was painting. There were other arts as well.

[Kusha Navadar]

Was it hard to bring like the music unit from idea into reality? Was there a lot of, like, political backlash to it, or was it kind of, oh, this seems like a great thing, and let's just all put the money into it to make it happen.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

The music unit stayed very much under the radar on purpose because the resettlement administration in general was, you know, you can imagine that conservatives in Congress and elsewhere were not big fans of this idea. Even just, you know, they would call it government overreach. You know, this cooperative idea was definitely too close to socialism. And so the music unit just sort of stayed quiet. They a lot of their.

[Kusha Navadar]

Ironically. Sorry, I just got to point that out. Sorry to step on.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Absolutely. Of course. Right. A lot of the correspondence that I found at the Library of Congress was marked confidential, sometimes very confidential. And so they were sending these representatives out to these homesteads. And the connection to here in New York and Thomas Benton was to Charles Seeger had met Charles Pollock, who was one of the painters who had been hired by the Resettlement Administration. And that's how Charles Seeger ended up in charge of the music unit and how he discovered folk music and decided that that was the music that they needed to have.

[Kusha Navadar]

How did that choice happen? Because I'm not even sure what was the reputation of folk music back then? Was it taken seriously? Was it respected? And why was Charles like, oh, yeah, folk is the one that should go with.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

It was on the rise, I would say, during the 1930s, there was an increased interest in the folk, in the New Deal, in terms of government. It went all the way up. FDR and Eleanor Roosevelt loved folk music. And it was sort of seen as this expression of the people, if that.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. And is it that it was the expression of the people that Charles thought it should be folk music that folks are hearing versus, like, a classical quintet or something?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yeah. Yes. And also, I think his idea was it needed to be the music of the people from those communities. And that's where the recording came into play. Because. And again, you know, not to say that all of these ideas were necessarily, you know, rock solid in terms of thinking and the way that folk music actually works, but his thinking was, we need to go out and find out what music is being sung and performed in these communities, record it, and then bring those recordings back for the field representatives to play on the homesteads.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. And geographically, where do they focus?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

So it was Appalachians and the South.

[Kusha Navadar]

Got it. And it's just as much as a social function. I mean, you include a quote in your book attributed to Charlie Seeger about the vision for the unit, which in part it reads, to regard music as a social function. Why was this an important discussion distinction for the music group? What did it represent about the mission of the group?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Well, I think that it is what connects the music unit's work directly to the ideological focus of the resettlement administration, which was towards cooperatives. But the. The head of resettlement administration was named. There are some great names in my book. And this is.

[Kusha Navadar]

There are.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yes, yes, there are some great names. Rexford G. Tugwell, who was. He started as a Columbia economics professor, and he was one of the most progressive members of the administration. He was slammed as Rex the Red because he really believed that the way out not only was through cooperatives, in terms of cooperative farming and cooperative factories, but also changing. It was like an ideological shift away from rugged individualism and towards more of a community focus that he felt was needed in order to get out of the Great Depression. And so the music was specifically focused on helping people feel like a part of a community. So for Charles Seeger, some of it came very literally. He made song sheets of. With lyrics about cooperating. And I think the idea was get people to play music together, sing together.

[Kusha Navadar]

Right. Yeah. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Cheryl Kaskowitz, who's an author and musicologist. She has a new book out. It's called A chance to how FDR's hidden music unit Sought To Save America from the Great Depression. One Song at a Time. Tomorrow, if you're interested in hearing more, Kaskowitz will be participating in the Roosevelt Reading Festival at the FDR Library in Hyde Park. And Cheryl, you had mentioned a couple minutes ago about the recordings and the choice to go out and hear what the communities, what these homesteads, what kind of music they were actually making. And they collected 800 songs in total. That's such a big number. I imagine that there were so many songs that you listened to. We heard a clip in the beginning. I'd love to play another clip as an example right now. And listeners, just heads up. These are old recordings, so you might hear some fuzz in the backgr. Here's the clip. This is going down the road feeling bad.

[McDonald's Employee]

I'm kicking, trotting on my knees and ain't gonna be treated this way we at.

[Kusha Navadar]

What kind of music were they recording on? Sorry? What kind of recording equipment were they recording the music on? I flipped the words in my head.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yes, the. The equipment is maybe hard for us to imagine now what it meant to record then. This was. It was about 150 pounds. It was this big brown case with a handle on the side of it so they could call it portable. And it flipped open and it was a disc cutting machine. So these were aluminum discs. So they were also hauling around the aluminum discs, which weighed another 100 plus pounds, finding a place where the electricity was running on the right current and was strong enough in these areas. It was. Yeah. And so this was something. This is where Sidney Robertson came in to the story. She was the one who recorded a lot of this music, though. That recording you just played was actually recorded by Margaret Valiant. She was the one who went out to the FSA migrant camps in California. And so that was recorded at Shafter Camp.

[Kusha Navadar]

And yeah, you brought up Sidney Robertson. We have an example of a recording that she made as well. So let's listen to that. This is Rockabye Baby. It was recorded in St. Louis in 1936. Let's listen to it.

[McDonald's Employee]

Rockabye Baby Rockaby baby on the treetop when you grow up, you work in the shop when you get married, your wife will work so that the rich will have nothing to do Rock A by Baby on the treetop when you grow old Your wages will stop when you have Spence a little. You say, first to the poor house, then to the grave.

[Kusha Navadar]

As soon as that started, both of us just smiled really wide, which I love. That's such a beautiful recording. What was it about Sydney Robertson that made her unique?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yes, that's one of my favorite recordings that I found. And those recordings in particular. Sidney Robertson actually came to the Music Unit. She had been at the Henry Street Settlement House here in New York, and one of her interests was in labor union music and how they used. How labor organizers used music. And so she took a special side trip away from the homesteads to St. Louis and found this group of activists who were using music at their protests. So they had held a sit in in St. Louis. And she was just fearless, and she was really interested in not necessarily finding, you know, the performers in a group, but how was music being used? What everyday songs she was looking for, you know, play songs. You know, these were protest songs, which she actually had to be even quieter about.

[Kusha Navadar]

Right. And it's interesting because for all the good the music did, I mean, you bring up protest songs, you point out that racism and segregation existed within the program, like a lot of the New Deal overall. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Oh, yeah. Well, that was something that I definitely needed to grapple with to tell this story. And I think that's true of, you know, the New Deal and this era and American history in general. Because even though at the top they had said that all of their programs, they didn't want. They wanted them to be available to all. They allowed each local community to make decisions for itself about, you know, based on their own social customs, I think is the words that they used. And so in the Jim Crow south, the homesteads were all white, at least the ones that the Music unit worked in. There were a couple that were. There were like a handful in other parts of the country that were not segregated, and there were a few that were set aside for black families to go to. But for the Music Unit, it was definitely within the confines of that segregation.

[Kusha Navadar]

We got a text from a listener just now that I want to get your reaction to. It's on this topic. It says it was also deliberately, slyly integrating black music into white. What do you think about that?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Oh, that is really interesting and I think true in a lot of ways about, you know, the history of music in the US what's interesting about the Music Unit and their focus on. They really were trying. They had a kind of romanticized is the wrong word. But that's coming to mind about sort of, you know, white folk music from Appalachia, which was not true, that music came just as much from black traditions as white traditions. But I think they had this idea that their focus was, was on white music. And, and now we can look and see all of the ways that, you know, you can't actually segregate music in the way that they hope to.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. Now eventually the music unit gets shut down. Right. Can you give a quick synopsis of what happened there?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yeah. So what happened was Rexford G. Tugwell decided to resign. He felt like because he had become, they called him the whipping boy for, for the New Deal. And the Resettlement Administration became part of the Department of Agriculture, and all of these sort of arts related programs were shut down. It became the Farm Security Administration, which a lot of people know from the photographs.

[Kusha Navadar]

And to what extent did, did the labor unrest at the time have to do something with the shutdown?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Well, it's a complicated question because the New Deal supported labor unions. But I think that there was a growing coalition, Even though in 1936 the Democrats had a huge majority, there was a growing coalition of Southern Democrats and conservative Republicans who were pushing back against a lot of the most say, radical ideas from the New Deal.

[Kusha Navadar]

Got it. And so, you know, the music unit shuts down, but folk music doesn't go away, it rises. And the American folk revival scene towards the middle of the 20th century is so famous in music history. I mean, you know, Bob Dylan, Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Woody Guthrie, these are names that we know so well. I'm wondering to what extent did the legacy of the U.S. music unit influence this, this revival? Did these musicians know that these recordings existed?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yes, because as people have probably figured out, and if you didn't know already, Charles Seeger was Pete Seeger's father. He was a teenager at this time. Alan Lomax is well known as someone who helped to, you know, collect these songs that became part of the folk revival. He was part of this scene. John Lomax actually helped train Sidney Robertson to use to go out and record music. So John Lomax being Alan Lomax's father. And so I see it as sort of a prehistory. And they did have these recordings at the Seeger household. And so Pete Seeger talks about listening to them. Yeah. And Mike Seager has also recorded some of these songs. And you know, what I say is the fingerprints are all over the folk revival, if you know where to look.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. So you think Pete Seeger became what he became because he was able to listen to his dad's work in part.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, part of the lore of the folk revival is that Pete Seeger got his first five string banjo at the Mountain Festival in Asheville, North Carolina. The reason he was there is because Charles Seeger took him there on a work trip. They actually, it was like they had an all Music unit meeting there. And so. Yeah, so even if these recordings weren't widely known, all of this was known to both Pete Seeger and Alan Lomax. They knew about these early recordings. And the song sheets that Pete Seeger. Sorry. That Charles Seeger made, they matched exactly some of the recordings that Pete Seeger later did.

[Kusha Navadar]

You know, I'm wondering for you, since we're talking about Pete Seeger listening to these albums growing up for you, you take on this huge undertaking to unearth all of these archival recordings. How did it feel for you when you were listening to. I don't know if you listened to, but I'm sure you listened to a lot of them. How did it feel for you?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

It was pretty amazing. I sat at the American Folklife center in the Library of Congress next to a reel to reel machine where all of these recordings had been transferred. And I had already read a lot about them. And what's amazing is Sidney, especially Sidney Robertson, wrote these epic reports explaining all of the backstory of the people she was recording. And so I had a sense of what I was going to be hearing. But it's such an amazing record of a time. I mean, even the sound, you know, the scratchy sound. If you imagine that that's an aluminum disc that they recorded in 1936. Yeah. And it's just, it isn't a wide range. She was able to break free a little bit of the segregation of the time. Later on she went and recorded, you know, ethnic immigrants in the upper Midwest. So it was. Okay. Did I listen to all 13 verses of Barbara Allen? No, I didn't. Well, I might have just spaced out, you know, they were playing, but. But I. Yeah, I mean, it felt like such a gift to be able to do that.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah. I understand that you're looking for any descendants that might have access to these recordings. If there's someone out there listening who might have a story for you, how can they get in touch with you Very quickly?

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Yeah, if they go on my website, cherylcaskowicz.com, there's contact there. And also if people are interested in the digital. Some of the digital recordings are available on my website, too.

[Kusha Navadar]

All right. I'VE been speaking with Cheryl Kaskowitz, author and musicologist. Her book is called A Chance to harmonize how FDR's hidden music unit Sought to Save America from the Great Depression. One Song at a time. Tomorrow, if you're interested in hearing more, Kaskowitz will be participating in the Roosevelt Reading Festival at the FDR Library in Hyde Park, New York. Go check it out. This is all of it. We are going to be right back. But Cheryl, first I just want to say thank you so much for joining us.

[Cheryl Kaskowitz]

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[Kusha Navadar]

Absolutely. Folks, we're going to be back in a second. We're going to talk about a lot more, so stay with us. When we come back, we're going to talk about sandwiches in New York. That's right after the news. See you then.

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[Kusha Navadar]

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