← All Of It with Alison Stewart
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Foreign.
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This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The score of the super bowl last night was the Seattle Seahawks winning over the New England Patriots, 29 to 13. But there's another number from the game that's worth knowing. It's estimated that more than $1.7 billion. That's with a B were wagered on this year's super bowl as SP gambling continues to surge in influence, particularly with young men. And a new twist to the world of gambling, prediction markets, where you can now place a bet on anything right on your phone. From politics to wars to pop culture. The super bowl ends just as the Winter Olympics begin. And some are wondering and worrying how much the prevalence of live betting will impact the games, which historically have been a less popular attraction for gamblers. Journalist Danny Funt's new book is called Everybody Loses the Tumultuous Ride of American Sports Gambling. Danny, welcome back to the show, and congratulations on your book.
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Hi. Thanks very much.
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So I wanted to ask you, the super bowl is obviously, it's huge in sports, but to put it in perspective for us, what does a Super bowl mean for the gambling industry?
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It's interesting because it is the biggest day on the betting calendar, but it only accounts for about 1% of the money wagered over the course of a year. And in many ways, the biggest story is that the super bowl is kind of unremarkable now from a betting standpoint. Even the idea that you could bet on thousands of things within the game, you know, the statistics of every player, all sorts of propositions or props as they're called, that used to be a novelty for the Super Bowl. Now you can do that basically every game, every day of the year. So the idea that you're betting that much could be, you know, a road to excess. A lot of people seem to be.
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Thinking that DraftKings and FanDuels and other live betting platforms have been around for years now. But now you can bet on a coin toss or the color of the Gatorade that's poured on the winning coach's head. How did the super bowl become this.
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Kind of event where so many different kind of bets are placed?
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The idea originated in the 1980s, where a sportsbook manager named Art Manteris at Caesar's palace was anticipating a pretty lopsided matchup. The Chicago Bears that year were heavy favorites. This was 1986. And he thought, why don't we let people place a side bet on whether a defensive lineman on the Bears, William the Refrigerator Perry, as he was called would score a touchdown, and people were interested in that. He did score late in the game, and people made money off that. But that really remained a sideshow for most of Nevada's betting history. You know, people were mostly betting on who would win and lose. And these prop bets, yeah, they proliferated, especially for the super bowl, but they were not how most people bet. And as online betting has taken off, where now 95% of bets across the country are placed online, it makes it so easy to bet on all sorts of side bets like that. Um, and these sports books like FanDuel and DraftKings have mastered not just offering all those bets, but allowing you to combine them for the chance at a bigger payout. That's called parlays. That's a huge piece of the business. It's their biggest money maker. It's also a quick way to find that you're in over your heads, because the house edge on those bets is vastly greater than for traditional betting against the spread. Uh, so the average DraftKings customer, for example, now bets more than a thousand dollars every month.
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Wow.
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And when they're betting all that money on parlays and props, they're also losing a lot more money than they ever have before.
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Listeners, did you throw any money down on the Super Bowl? How'd you bet? Do you plan on betting on the Olympics? How has live betting affected the way you watch sports now? Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433, NYC. Or maybe you know someone who live bets on a lot of sports. How do you think it's changed how they watch? Or maybe your relationship? Have you gotten into betting on prediction markets outside of sports, like politics or culture? 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. We do want to say this is a judgment free zone. My guest is Danny Funt, the author of the new book Everybody Loses the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. I want to go back to the beginning. Well, sort of the beginning. Let's go back to the SCOTUS decision that was very important for all of this. It involved New Jersey and its former Governor Murphy. It was a 63 decision. What did the decision made in the case of Mercy Murphy vs National College Athletic association have to do with sports gambling?
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In some ways a lot, and in other ways very little, because it did invalidate this federal ban on bookmaking outside of Nevada that had been on the books since 1992. But the issue was a pretty obscure 10th Amendment question about state sovereignty and how the federal government could impose on that. It was not a question of whether sports betting would be good for the country. In fact, the justices went out of their way to clarify that Congress did have the authority to restrict sports gambling. That bill had just gone about it in a defective way. And yet it was an opening for so many states to rush to legalize and for the leagues, most importantly, to flip flop in the most dramatic way possible. As I report in my book, as they were fighting in federal court and eventually before the supreme Court to defend that federal law, they were meeting behind the scenes with representatives of the gambling industry that were presenting just how much money they said to make from legalization, particularly for their TV rights, which is the biggest moneymaker in sports, the right to show pro and college games. And although these meetings were held in secret, sometimes at cafes, not even at the league offices, because they were that reluctant to be seen with representatives of the gambling business business, it was hugely persuasive. In the NFL's case, they were told they stood to make more than $2 billion every year if legalization were to take hold across the country. So once the court made that ruling in 2018, that was the COVID for the leagues to say we're now going to go from calling this an evil and an existential threat to sports to being its biggest champions and to being very hands on in lobbying states to legalizing betting as quickly as possible.
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It's interesting. You said they were reluctant to be seen having these conversations. Why were they reluctant?
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For a century, they had been saying that gambling was a disastrous proposition if it were to spread outside Nevada. The leagues were the ones that had lobbied Congress in the early 90s to pass that federal ban. For all the years since, they had been saying that there's so much evidence that gambling corrupts sports that it cheapens fans relationship with the games. If they're worried about a bet and not a favorite team or favorite player, that it can pose a public health threat because we know that gambling can be brutally addictive. All of those things inspired the commissioners to treat this with such seriousness. And so I really wanted to get to the bottom of that in my book, had their rationale changed, had. Had those concerns been alleviated or had they just changed their priorities and realized they stood to make a ton of money and could offer some justifications for that profound 180. And it seems like that was more the case.
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We're discussing sports gambling. My guest is journalist Danny Funt. Author of the new book Everybody the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. After the break, we'll talk prediction markets. You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We're discussing sports gambling. And I do want to mention the national gambling hotline is 1-800-Myret. That's 1-800-697-3738. My guest is journalist Danny Fund. He's author of the new book Everybody Loses, the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. We want to hear from you. Do you bet on sports? Has it changed the way that you look at the game? Do you know someone who bets on sports? You change? Has it changed them? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. So, Danny, before the break, I said I want to talk about prediction mar markets on a basic level. First of all, what is a prediction market?
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It's a place where you can bet on the outcomes of basically everything under the sun. Traditionally, that was mostly politics, mainly elections. Now, not only does it include sports, but just about everything we can think of, whether it'll rain tomorrow in New York City, whether a certain bill will be passed, whether someone will say a specific word when they go on a talk show. You name it, you can find it on a prediction market.
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So companies like Is it Polymarket and Kalshir are growing really, really fast. Why was 2025 such a big year for prediction markets?
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For one, the posture of federal regulators has changed to be more permissive of that sort of stuff. For a long time, those sort of markets were tightly controlled. They were really kind of academic experiments to see what is what happens when people are betting on elections or things like that. But because the Trump administration has been more lenient with prediction markets, it's noteworthy that the president's son, Donald Trump Jr. Is an advisor to both Kalshee and Polymarket. They've exploded in the past year. A big reason why is because although they allow you to bet on all of those things I was just mentioning, they also allow you to bet on sports in ways that are almost indistinguishable from traditional sports gambling, which is why they're fighting in federal court in a number of places with states and some other interest tribes, for one, saying this is a way to circumvent gambling laws. You should be taxed like any other gambling operator. You should have to be licensed just like any gambling operator. And this is a workaround to offer sports gambling by a Different name in all 50 states.
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And it's not considered gambling because it's on a trading platform. Is that the case?
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Right. It's considered trading event contracts. So it's more akin to other types of investing and futures. And you know, you can make the case for that when it's dealing with certain economic products, like whether the federal interest rate will go up. You can understand why as a hedging tool that might have some appeal to people in finance. But when it comes to why is it any different if you're trading an event contract on who's going to win the super bowl or any other sporting event that is kind of laughable to some people and outrageous to some people because as I said, the user experience is very similar to if you were betting on a traditional sports book.
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Let's take a call. This is Mark who's calling in for Neurochel. Hi, Mark. Thanks for taking the time to call, all of it. Let's hear your story.
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My story is pretty sad. Thank you for taking my call. My son is 27 and has been addicted to sports gambling for about 10 years. He's gone through his inheritance, which is about $200,000. He will not admit that he has a problem. He will. He's refused to get any. Go to any, you know, gamblers, Anonymous, aa, anything else. It's completely ruined our life. We don't have any contact with him. He's been. And we've been sort of propping him up, but we stopped propping him up, you know, with basic expenses. He does work, but I wouldn't be surprised if he spends all his money gambling. I would also mention that I don't know if it's called co addiction, but he also previously had drug dependency issues. And I'm so my. I guess I'm not doing this to, you know, to cry on the air. I'm. Although it's very sad, but I'm wondering, you know, every. All these fanduel kinds of advertisements always mention that if you have a gambling problem called 1-800-it's like at the end of the commercial, I'm wondering why I don't think I'm alone. We're alone with our song. I think there's many other people who are in this situation. I'm wondering why that's not promoted. These companies aren't forced to promote or advertise the extent of this problem more because I'm sure it's basically an epidemic. That's what I'd have to say.
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Mark, thank you so much for Calling in and for your candor, we wish your family our very best. That's a lot to take in. Danny, first of all, do the companies like FanDuel, is there any sort of guiding principle where they, they have to promote that gambling is addictive?
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No. And believe it or not, the industry doesn't even acknowledge that sports betting is addictive despite decades of medical consensus and so many stories. Like your listeners, if you ask doctors or experts, it's undeniable that this is not just addictive but a potentially brutal addiction and one with a frightening suicidal ideation rate. So when you hear the industry refuse to concede that, it casts doubt on how much they're doing to actually protect customers. And that's what I heard again and again reporting my book was people inside this industry say they're alarmed that the industry isn't upholding their end of the bargain. When I hear a responsible gaming official at one of the top sportsbooks say that when it comes to consumer protections, anything beyond the lowest common denominator is viewed in their words, as a competitive disadvantage, that's alarming. And it casts doubt on the industry's contention that they can be trusted to self police and that they're looking out for the interests of their customers. So many things I heard sadly suggest otherwise.
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Who's fighting this, if at all?
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There are some lawmakers in New York State. Congressman Paul Tonko has been very outspoken and active in Congress of trying to regulate this at the federal level. Some of that, by the way, is pretty modest. One of his bills a few years ago would simply divert some of the tax revenue that a federal tax on betting that's been collected for decades. It would allocate some of that to research and treatment and prevention for gambling problems. But just the matter of researching things as basic as how many people are betting and how many of them are developing problems, it turns out that's hugely contentious and that the industry fights it aggressively. They desperately do not want federal research of questions that fundamental. And what I heard from lawmakers and from people in the industry is that they recognize if we had a clearer sense of the scope of gambling and the scope of gambling problems, the industry would face a lot more scrutiny.
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New York Governor Hochul announced that she wants stronger measures to stop underage people betting 21 or under. It's an open secret that kids under 21s are betting on their phones. How easy is it to gamble on a cell phone to underage gamble?
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I should say so easy. And I took note that your callers, his child started gambling, it sounds like, when he was a teenager. So that's underage. But just being underage doesn't mean it's not so difficult to get an older friend, a relative, someone at your school, you name it. Kids are finding a way to bet. Where I live in North Carolina, half of the calls to the problem gambling hotline in our state come from parents who are so concerned to see their kids suddenly consumed with gambling. It's a major problem, and it's alarming because this is what's referred to as a progressive disorder. So it can take years for a gambling problem to take shape. And as a result, when we see so many teenagers suddenly betting at unprecedented rates, one wonders what that will mean in just a few years if they end up becoming problem gamblers. That's honestly terrifying to think about.
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My guest is journalist Danny Fund, author of the new book Everybody the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. We're also hearing for you. Are you someone who gambles on sports? Why do you do it? Our numbers, 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Danny, I want to read this text to you and get your response. It says NBA player Giannis joined Kalshee as a shareholder this weekend. My boyfriend works for the NBA and we had a long talk about how this can change the sports world forever. Players can hold the power if prediction markets are open to anyone, like players, coaches, referees, et cetera.
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Yeah, it seemed incredibly provocative that One of the NBA's biggest stars, Giannis Antentokounmpo of the Milwaukee Bucks, announced that he's an investor in Kalshi, one of these, one of the most prominent prediction markets for a lot of reasons. For one, it's still provocative that athletes are promoting gambling products, you know, in such a prominent way. LeBron James is a big spokesman for DraftKings. Derek Jeter does a lot of ads for BetMGM. So that's not new. But a lot of. A lot of people elsewhere in the world are kind of dumbfounded that America allows that, by and large. The other reason why it's potentially problematic is because you could bet on Kalshi, on whether Giannis would be traded over the past few weeks, that was something that was getting a lot of attention. He was in a lot of trade rumors. He wasn't traded. But, you know, inside information is such a big threat with all forms of gambling, but especially something like trades, where agents and front office executives and people inside teams have access to knowledge of what's going to happen and how those bets are going to play out. So to know that a player has a financial stake in those platforms and, you know, is being bet on that directly, it seems like a whole can of worms and like enormous responsibility for a platform like Kalshi to regulate. And many people told me from my book they're quite skeptical that the leagues are up for the task and that their partners are up for the task of policing all these opportunities for corruption.
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Let's talk to Susan from Jersey City. Hi, Susan, thanks for calling. You're on the air.
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Hi.
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Thanks so much for taking my call. On that note, too, it's very upsetting to me to see celebrities like Jamie Foxx and other actors and actresses promoting gambling and getting young people to spend their money while they're promoting it and making money. And I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on celebrities outside of the sports industry and how they're profiting from this as well.
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Dani, what do you think?
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It has such a profound effect of normalizing gambling. You know, it's easy to be numb to this now, but it used to be something you did subtly or you didn't necessarily want to draw a lot of attention to it if you were a kid. It probably wasn't top of mind. To see these beloved celebrities starring in gambling ads really makes a difference. I remember I spoke with the mother of a young man who became addicted to sports betting and then other forms of gambling while he was in college a few years it completely ruined his college experience. And she told me that her sister used to be addicted to smoking and the smell of a cigarette would repulse her because of that. And that the mother of this man who was addicted to gambling feels that way when she sees Kevin Hart now, who stars in so many DraftKings commercials, just because it, it touches a nerve to see the way that they make gambling seem harmless and innocent and like the thing that everyone's doing when she knows firsthand how dangerous it can be.
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Eric, we have time for your call real quickly.
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Eric, hi. Yes? Am I on the air?
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Yeah, you're on the air.
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Yeah, I just wanted to mention, you know, I've been, I'm not, I don't have any direct relations to gambling, either me or loved ones. But I'm just seeing this as like the opioid epidemic all over. Lack of government regulation is going to create this thing that will destroy millions of people's lives. And we're not going to realize it until it's too late and will just further erode our trust in institutions. That's all I wanted to say.
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Thanks, Eric, for your comment. Using your brain, thinking about, like, what could we have done about the epioid epidemic 20 years ago? Danny, with all the knowledge you have, all the reporting you've done, what is one thing that could be done to make sure that this doesn't get out of hand?
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There are a lot of ways the industry could be reined in. And again, I think that one of the most striking things I found in my book is speaking with people who work in the betting industry, including some pretty high ranking people who say, why is it that we're allowed to offer deceptive promotions to seduce new customers? Why is it that we're allowed to offer a relentless form of betting where you're betting on a minute by minute basis now as opposed to, you know, waiting several hours between bets? When they see these ways in which the industry has gotten out of hand and they wonder how is this allowed? Because this is clearly endangering Americans, I think that's pretty powerful and I think lawmakers are hearing that and I wouldn't say it's a long shot that they'll take action in due time.
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The name of the book is Everybody the Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling. It's by my guest, Danny Fund. Thank you for sharing your reporting, Danny.
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