Ian Karmel On His Memoir, 'T-Shirt Swim Club'

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ian Karmel On His Memoir, 'T-Shirt Swim Club'

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Guest Host Kusha Navadar
Guest: Ian Carmel
Episode Date: August 13, 2024

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Overview

This episode of "All Of It" features Emmy-nominated comedian, writer, and actor Ian Carmel in a heartfelt and humorous discussion about his new memoir, T-Shirt Swim Club: Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People. Carmel shares candid reflections on growing up fat, the societal stigma surrounding weight, masculinity, media representation, and his journey toward self-acceptance. The conversation is enriched by deeply personal audience calls, highlighting the universality and potency of these experiences. The memoir, co-written with his sister (a psychologist and nutrition expert), aims to foster empathy, honesty, and laughter around the topic of body size.

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Main Themes and Key Insights

1. The Origin and Significance of "T-Shirt Swim Club"

• Wearing T-shirts in Pools:
  Carmel explains the book's title is a direct reference to the familiar experience of fat kids wearing T-shirts in pools, hoping it would make their bodies less conspicuous. He describes it as both "absurd and sad," as the wet T-shirt only accentuated what he wanted to hide (02:37).

  "It would suck to your torso. Right. It would accentuate, if anything, your curves. Like, I spent my entire childhood in pools as a kid with. With still my fat body, but just through a wet, big dog T shirt."
  — Ian Carmel (02:53)

2. Motivation to Write the Memoir

• Conversation with Sister:
  Ian was inspired after realizing he’d never truly discussed the emotional realities of being a fat kid with his sister, who had chosen psychology and nutrition as a career to understand her own experience. The lack of male-centered accounts on this subject motivated the project (03:51).
• Difference in Gendered Experiences:
  Carmel points out most memoirs on fatness are by women, noting men are socialized to repress rather than share such vulnerabilities (04:40).

  "We thought, you know, in a way that is funny and empathetic, you know, hopefully coming from me... we thought it would be a really good way to talk about this stuff and hopefully help some people and at the very least, make them laugh."
  — Ian Carmel (05:37)

3. The "Male Gap" in Fat Narratives

• Masculinity and Isolation:
  Carmel discusses how being fat as a boy meant seeking value by performing physical roles (like football), being self-deprecating, and how his popularity always felt conditional (06:19).

  "The first time I felt any sort of approval for my big, fat body...I played football...that was the first role I played...and it was good that my body was big as long as I used it to hurt other kids."
  — Ian Carmel (06:43)

• Comedy as Defense:
  After high school, losing the “football role,” he found a place in standup by “mining his pain” in self-deprecating humor, yet this reinforced the emotional isolation around his body image (07:58).

4. Internal vs. External Bullying

• Social Exclusion & Everyday Bullying:
  Stories of being turned away from amusement rides or clothing stores reveal both overt and “passive” forms of social exclusion, often compounded by cruel comments from others (09:54).

  "That’s the passive bullying of the world...then somebody in line yelled out, get in my belly from, you know, Austin Powers."
  — Ian Carmel (10:51)

• Self-Bullying:
  Carmel admits, on reflection, much of the harshest bullying came from himself, influenced by a society “built for thin people.” (09:58)

5. Language, Stigma, and Change

• Reclaiming "Fat":
  Carmel is intentional in using the word “fat,” seeking to reclaim it and shift societal perceptions.

  "I say fat, by the way. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the word fat. I think if we want to change the way the word fat feels, we should change the way we treat fat people."
  — Ian Carmel (11:21)

6. Audience Stories and Resonance

The episode’s callers share moving, relatable stories:

• Cheryl (Lindenhurst, Long Island):
  Recalls family and partner’s shaming, her mental health struggles, journey through Weight Watchers, and how old wounds resurface with weight fluctuation (11:45).
• Katherine (North Bergen, NJ):
  Was told by her mother she’d “never have beautiful clothes or a man,” but defied all odds: became a singer in 28 countries, a seamstress, and married an Arabian prince. “Wrong again, Ma.” (13:43)
• Bill (Brooklyn):
  A father worried about his elementary-aged son and the relentless societal prejudice he will face (17:45).
• Charlotte (Carmel, NY):
  Shares grievances about the segregated, demeaning treatment in clothing stores and expresses gratitude for Ian’s book (25:09).

7. Parent-Child Communication and Support

• How to Help Fat Kids:
  Carmel emphasizes the importance of body-neutral or positive conversations at home, and advocates for supporting kids in developing active, health-focused relationships with their bodies — "not leading with your fat as a problem" at the doctor (18:44).

  "You can be fat and you can be healthy...there are a lot of people who we would consider fat...who have very active relationships with their health."
  — Ian Carmel (19:13)

8. Societal Attitudes, Media, and the Fat Joke

• Public Discourse:
  Conversation touches on the prevailing thin-centric culture, as evidenced by offhand comments from politicians about “summer bodies” (19:48).
• Fat Jokes in Media:
  Carmel examines the ethics of fat jokes in late night TV:
  • He and James Corden initially used self-deprecation to ingratiate themselves with audiences, but after a public rant by Bill Maher advocating "fat shaming," they realized the harm and stopped those jokes (21:13, 21:44).

  "We stopped making fat jokes...we can’t be saying this out of one side of our mouth and then out of the other, participating in the system that has devalued us."
  — Ian Carmel (23:32)

  • Carmel reflects he wishes they’d reached that understanding sooner, “We didn’t need to throw ourselves overboard for the sake of a laugh.” (24:01)

9. Closing Reflections & Hope for Readers

• Main Message:
  Carmel wants readers to find joy, empathy, information, and a sense of solidarity in the book. Each chapter is paired with his sister’s expert perspective to guide conversations between parents and children.

  "It’s the hope that people know that they’re not alone...there are other people going through this and you don’t have to go through it without help."
  — Ian Carmel (26:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Absurdity of T-Shirts in Pools:
  "It would suck to your torso. Right. It would accentuate, if anything, your curves." — Ian Carmel (02:53)

• On the Urgency for Male Fat Narratives:
  "Men are not—I think we’re told not to indulge those feelings. I think we’re told to toughen up." — Ian Carmel (04:52)

• On Internalized Bullying:
  "There’s this insidious thing about bullying, which is...once you get bullied, once you assume the same thing, even if it’s not [true]. There’s a whisper filter through which you see everything." — Ian Carmel (08:52)

• On Reframing the Word "Fat":
  "If we want to change the way the word fat feels, we should change the way we treat fat people." — Ian Carmel (11:21)

• On Supporting Fat Kids:
  "If you go to the doctor with them, make sure that that doctor isn't leading with 'your fat and that's a problem.' Make sure they're leading with, 'let's talk about your health.'" — Ian Carmel (19:32)

• On Comedy as Defense:
  "The first thing you do as a stand-up comedian...my first joke, I would go up on stage and say, you know, my name is Ian Carmel, which is ridiculous because I'm a 6 foot 3, 350 pound Jew and my name sounds like a whimsical British candy store." — Ian Carmel (07:40)

• On Personal Hope for "T-Shirt Swim Club":
  "I hope they take a conversation about fat that is not necessarily negative, one that is full of joy and empathy and also...information." — Ian Carmel (26:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:37] – On the origins of T-Shirt Swim Club and the symbolism of T-shirts in pools
• [03:51] – Carmel discusses inspiration for the memoir and the unique collaboration with his sister
• [06:19] – The gender gap in fat experience narratives, football, and conditional male approval
• [09:54] – Bullying: internal vs external, and stories of public humiliation
• [11:45] – Audience call: Cheryl’s emotional journey with weight and self-acceptance
• [13:43] – Audience call: Katherine’s story of overcoming family judgment and societal expectations
• [17:45] – Audience call: Bill, a father’s perspective on supporting his son in a fatphobic world
• [19:48] – Social commentary: The dominance of “thin culture” and everyday body scrutiny
• [21:13] – Fat jokes in media: working with James Corden, responding to Bill Maher, and shifting writerly ethics
• [25:09] – Audience call: Charlotte speaks about clothing store segregation and appreciation for the memoir
• [26:11] – Carmel’s hopes for the impact of the memoir on readers

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, empathetic, and deeply funny dialogue around fatness, identity, and culture, challenging stigma while honoring joy and resilience. Ian Carmel's "T-Shirt Swim Club" stands as both a personal narrative and a communal invitation—to rethink shame, celebrate survival, and advocate for a less judgmental world. The memoir and this conversation provide new language and understanding for anyone who has ever felt out of place in a “world built for thin people.”

Transcript

[Host/Producer]

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[Ian Carmel]

I' ma put you on nephew. All right, unc, welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss? I've been hitting up McDonald's for years now. It's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back. Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Host/Producer]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. As summer comes to a close and a few members of our team are enjoying the last few sunny days by taking time off, we are presenting a few encore conversations called Producers Picks. Today, producer Elle Malik Anderson introduces us to one of their favorite conversations of the summer. It's a candid, funny and heartfelt collection of stories that comedian Ian Carmel wrote about being fat while growing up. Here's Malik.

[Ian Carmel]

Emmy nominated comedian, writer and actor Ian Carmel's new memoir is titled T Shirt Swim Club Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People. And in the introduction he makes it clear that this is not a weight loss book. Instead, he provides a candid reflection of his childhood. Swimming with and without a shirt, doctor's visits as a kid, high school popularity and shopping for clothes. Ian joined guest host Kusha Navadar on all of it to discuss the memoir on publication day about two months ago. And I remember vividly how open, honest and excited he was to talk about his experiences. I was surprised he had the energy considering the fact he and his publicist had just run down the street from another interview. Then we had to rush him into the studio to get him seated. A minute to spare before going live. I was pretty anxious, but luckily the adrenaline kicked in and it turned out to be a hilarious interview. We also took your calls and questions, but since this is an encore presentation, sadly we cannot take your calls live. Let's listen to part of the interview.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

First thing that I thought of when I looked at it was T Shirts Pools. That is a very interesting title. Can you tell us about that title a little bit?

[Ian Carmel]

Yeah, I think now I think people wear T shirts in the pool to protect themselves from the constant assassination Attempts of the sun. Right. So that's become a more universal thing. But for a very long time, a T shirt in a pool was a feeling known almost exclusively by fat kids. It was a thing we did when we were little and we found out we were fat, and we wanted to somehow obscure or cover up that fact that we were fat and that we were supposed to be ashamed of our bodies by putting on a T shirt and then getting it wet, which is absurd as much as it is sad, I think, because it would suck to your torso. Right. It would accentuate, if anything, your curves. Like, I spent my entire childhood in pools as a kid with. With still my fat body, but just through a wet, big dog T shirt. So I thought that anyone who had also been a fat kid would immediately know the. The sensation of. Of wearing a T shirt in a pool.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

And, you know, it's. It's interesting to see your career as both a standup comedian and a writer for Late Night now doing a memoir, which is a different form of writing. So first, what inspired you to write the book? And then second, what was the process like for you to try this new medium?

[Ian Carmel]

Yeah, the inspiration for the book, I was talking to my little sister who has a doctorate in psychology and works in nutrition and who was also a fat kid. And I had gotten myself to a weight where I was healthier. She had done the same thing. We were kind of looking back on that process, and we realized we'd never spoken to each other about our experiences being fat kids. I think when you're a kid, it's kind of hard to talk about. It's hard to put those feelings into words. And then as you get older, it's kind of like you're in a hurricane. Right? And it's hard to talk about. You're like, boy, the wind is really strong. No, you're like nailing boards to windows. Right. Running into the basement to get away from it. So we finally got a little bit of distance from it. We were looking back, and she dealt with being a fat kid by getting a doctorate in psychology. I dealt with it by doing the opposite, getting into comedy. And we thought. I think we have two really good perspectives here. I think there's a lot of things we're talking about right now that we haven't seen written down before. And especially, there's been some amazing books by women about the experience of being fat. Roxanne Gay, Lindy West. So many people from the male perspective, there hadn't been as many. And I think it's because men are not. I think we're told not to indulge those feelings. I think we're told to toughen up. And I know that I dealt with being fat by either joking about it or being sad alone and not telling anyone else because it was bad enough feeling different because of my body. I didn't then want to start complaining about it around other people and give them another reason in my head not to like me. And that's isolating. It makes you feel alone. It makes me feel lonely, even more depressed. And when you already deal with those feelings by eating, which is what I did, and eventually drinking and doing drugs and all sorts of other things where I could continue to seek comfort, you know, I think those feelings can be really dangerous. And we thought, you know, in a way that is funny and empathetic, you know, hopefully coming from me, and in a way that is very knowledgeable and empathetic, coming from my sister who, like, literally deals with patients about this kind of thing, we thought it would be a really good way to talk about this stuff and tell that story and hopefully help some people and the very least, make them laugh.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

That gender piece that you're talking about is so interesting. Can you go into that a little bit? What was it like for you? Thinking about here is what missing in this gap among people, maybe specifically people who identify as male as being overweight. What's the role that I can fill in there?

[Ian Carmel]

Yeah, I mean, I definitely did. I think it's. I think the world is even more cruel to fat women, by the way, I think. But I also think there's maybe a bit more of a support system there, or at least permission to talk about it amongst themselves in a way that there hadn't been for men. The first time I felt any sort of approval for my big, fat body. I played football all through grade school, middle school, high school, and that was the first time I ever got any information that was positive about my body. So that was the first role I played. I played defensive tackle on the football team, and it was good that my body was big as long as I used it to hurt other kids. And I'm not trying to paint some sob story. I loved it. I loved the sound of the drums. I loved wearing the jacket. I loved getting to be part of this team. The togetherness, the camaraderie. It was fantastic.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

And you yourself have described yourself in the book as being popular, too, in high school, right?

[Ian Carmel]

I was a popular kid. Yeah, absolutely. I got to go to parties. I had lots of friends that popularity had definitely had a ceiling, you know, that I saw other popular kids not hit. Part of that was self imposed by myself. The way I saw fat people's romantic lives portrayed in popular media, which was non existent or as a laughing stock, right? If a fat guy tried to kiss a girl, the girl, you know, people laughed, like that's what I saw. And so, and then also so that was the ceiling that was imposed on my popularity in high school and I loved it. But at the same time there was this awareness that I was only popular as long as I decided to use my body to like hurt other kids. Right. Once I got out of high school, once that football thing got taken away, I quickly found comedy and, you know, I made fun of myself. That's the first thing you do is like a stand up comedian, right? You walk up on stage and you're like, I know what you're thinking, da da, da, da, da, da da. And my first joke, I would go up on stage and say, you know, my name is Ian Carmel, which is ridiculous because I'm a 6 foot 3, 350 pound Jew and my name sounds like a whimsical British candy store, right? My name should be I can you. I don't know if I can. My name should be Shlomo Pudding. Boobs, basically. Yeah, yeah, boobs is okay. That wasn't the word I replaced. The more, I think acceptable word. And my, and my catchphrase should be better put some butter on it. Right? And in my head I'm like, okay, I'm skewering the image of the fat comedian a little bit, but really I was, you know, making fun of myself and I was, I found a new role that I could play and as long as I sort of mind my own pain for it. And again, I'm making this sound like it was some miserable experience. I loved high school, which I think is pretty rare, especially for someone on public radio.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

I also loved high school.

[Ian Carmel]

So between the two of us, maybe we can be the outliers on the right hand side. I think we represent 100%. I don't know how Ira Glass's experience was, but I bet it wasn't great. Well, Ira Glass, if you want to call in 212-433-WNYC, but go ahead, hit us up, let us know if you had fun in high school. We'll be listening. And then, you know, I really enjoyed my experience in stand up comedy, but the entire time it was me taking these feelings and these in the, in this pain and these and these fears, definitely a lot of fear and anxiety about being fat and my experiences and stuffing them away and. And never wanting to subject anyone else to them. Right. And that was as much, I think, imposed by society a little bit. But there's this insidious thing about bullying, which is. I think it's like the opposite of termites. Right. You know, they say once you see one termite, it's too late to earn the foundation. So once you get bullied, once you assume the same thing, even if it's not. Even if, like. But you assume there's whisker whisper filter.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Through which you see everything in the world.

[Ian Carmel]

Everyone's talking about how fat I am.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Do you feel like most of your bullying came from yourself, or did it come from others?

[Ian Carmel]

Definitely for myself, looking back on it, and there was a fair amount coming from other people. And even just sort of like, the passive bullying of just being fat in a world that is. Sorry not to take the thing from my book, but, like, being fat in a world that is built for thin people. Right. I went to Six Flags with my family when I was probably 12, 13 years old and waited in line for a roller coaster for two hours in the hot sun. And it got up to the front of it, and they pulled the bar down, and the bar didn't fit over my belly. And that sucked because you just waited, like, two hours, and it's humiliating. And then you get up and, like. So that's the passive bullying of the world. And then somebody in line yelled out, get in my belly from, you know, Austin Powers. And so that's more of the act of bullying. So you're getting all those at the same time. You go into clothing stores, and, you know, the person working there is like, I could check the back, you know, where it's like, well, if you have the size, put it out with everybody else. You know, like, I shouldn't have to, like, cross me like these, you know, go through this perilous journey just to see if you have enough fabric to cover my disgusting torso. Put it out with everybody else. Even now that I'm, you know, I've lost quite a bit of weight, but I still wear, like, XL or 2. XL sometimes. And even still, I get that we can look in the back, and it's.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

It's feeling like you are relegated to the back.

[Ian Carmel]

Absolutely. Like, there's something right, especially right now where, you know, Americans, we're fat. A lot of us are fat. I say fat, by the way. I don't think there's Anything wrong with the word fat? I think if we want to change the way the word fat feels, we should change the way we treat fat people. And that'd be a great way to fix it.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Ian, we got a couple calls. I want to take them before we go to break. Here is Cheryl in Lindenhurst, Long Island. Hey, Cheryl, welcome to the show.

[Host/Producer]

Yes, thank you for putting me on. I want to thank you so much for writing this book because so much of it is resonating with me and it's actually bringing tears to my eyes. I grew up in a family where my weight was always an issue. I was always fat, I was chubby. And I just grew up thinking, well, you know, that's my lot in life. And I was felt really. I realized now that I was really beaten down about it. Then I went into a relationship with a boyfriend who would tell me, well, if you lose £50, I'll marry you. And I found that acceptable because of the way I grew up. My weight went up and down. It fluctuated. And then about five years ago, six years ago, my weight reached almost 300 pounds. And I'd go to bed at night and I'd pray to God, please don't let me wake up. And that's when I knew I had to do something. So I took myself off to Weight watchers. I lost 108 pounds. I felt great about myself. The pandemic hit. I put on probably about 30 and I started. All those old feelings of being fat, of being called a fat pig and being bullied about my weight started to come back. And I've worked really hard to say these feelings are not acceptable. And so I'm back on my Weight Watcher journey again and slowly taking off those £30.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Cheryl, I want to thank you so much for calling and for sharing that. And we're thinking of you and we so appreciate you sharing that. That, that difficult, but it sounds like empowering journey that you're going on right now. And we are sending you the best. And thank you so much again, folks. We're here with Ian Carmel, who is the author and comedian. The book, his memoir, T Shirt Swim Club Stories from Being Fat in a World of Thin People. We've got Katherine in North Bergen, New Jersey. Hey, Catherine, welcome. Welcome to the show.

[Host/Producer]

Thank you so much. What a fun topic. And yes, I've been a big person my whole life. I knew it when I was three years old. Hugely athletic family, seven brothers and sisters. And all I ever really wanted to be was an actor. So just very quickly As I went to first grade, my mother looked at me in the box pleated Catholic school skirt, and she said, oh, boy, that makes you look twice the size. Too bad you have to wear it for eight years. So that was first grade. So now let's fast forward, because I know you want to talk about high school. So it's about to go to high school on the first day, and she looks at me, she says, katherine, you're never gonna have beautiful clothes. You're never gonna have a man, and no one's ever gonna give you a good part. And okay, that was how we started high school. Now let's fast forward the videotape. I became an opera singer. I sang in 28 countries. When I first went to New York as an actor at 17, was $60. I became. Became a couturier seamstress. I had all the beautiful clothes I want. I married an Arabian prince. And often in my life, I've looked back at those things and I thought, wrong again, Ma.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Kathryn, I'm going to pause you there. Thank you so much for going through that, Ian. I am sure you can relate to a lot of that questioning about the direction you wanted to go and what was possible. I mean, there's a text here that says, as a fat person, I always say, every fat person wakes up and says, today is the day I won't overeat. And I'm just wondering, listening to Kathryn, hearing texts like that, does that resonate with you, with your own journey?

[Ian Carmel]

Everyone we've spoken, spoken to so far has resonated with me in big, meaningful ways. From the. You know, from the humiliation as coming. You know, from the calls coming from inside the house, as it were, as a kid, you know, to that defiance, to feeling that, like existing in defiance of everything that you were told you couldn't be. And I think that's wonderful. I think it's. You know, I think adults don't really know how to talk to their kids about being fat unless it's. Cause it's. You see how much pain the world inflicts on fat people. As a parent, I'm sure I don't have a kid myself, but my sister, who I wrote the book with, does. I've talked to my parents about it, and you want to do anything to get in the way of that pain. And sometimes the only thing you can think of is saying, unless you get smaller, the world is going to hurt you. And the only way I know of trying to motivate you to get smaller is to tell you that or to shame you or to scare you. Unfortunately, that causes stress. And if we're fat in the first place, we usually don't respond to stress with it's fight or flight. Oftentimes we go flight and we fly into our comforts, which is food, which is eating, which is hiding from things. People are so condescending to fat people. Every morning we do wake up and say, today is the day. I'm not going to overeat. Right. Nobody knows how to lose weight better than a fat person. And people, you know, it'll come from doctors, it'll come from people in your life, it'll come from Bill Maher, you know, who is saying, hey, fatty, just put down the cookie and pick up a kale chip. We know that. We understand that better than anyone. We know that intimately. Every fat person has been on a million diets and we've all had them fail because most diets aren't compatible with living a real life. Right. And it's all these efforts to shame us and scare us. When I think the best thing you can do, especially if you're a parent, is have a conversation with your kid. If you have a fat kid that is either positive or neutral about their body, you don't have to be positive about fat in its relation to your health or anything like that. I mean, you can have honest conversations about that. But I think oftentimes people are afraid to talk about it at home because they want the house to be a safe haven. That's what my house was like growing up. I felt fat everywhere but at home. But that meant I wasn't having any conversations about my body that were either positive or neutral. I was only having the negative ones outside of my house.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Well, you know, we have a caller who is a parent that would like to chime in. Here's Bill from Brooklyn. Hey, Bill, welcome to the show.

[Host/Producer]

Thank you. Yeah, I have a child in elementary school and he's always been on the upper end of the percentiles for his weight and body mass. And watching the way the world is starting to react to him is, is just heartbreaking. And I, I keep thinking that this is just such a relentless form of prejudice. If you substituted any other kind of identifying term or identity for fat, you'd never be able to say those things out loud.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Bill, what are some ways that you're trying to support your child? Hey, Bill, are you with us?

[Host/Producer]

By telling. Yeah, yeah. Telling him that he is perfect just as he is and making sure that he eats healthily and stays active.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Bill, thank you so much for calling and for sharing that. Ian, as you're listening, that resonates a lot with some of the things that you were saying before, right?

[Ian Carmel]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that sort of positive feedback is good. I think having frank conversations with your kid about how they're feeling and. And any bullying they might experience is a positive thing you can do. And I think just encouraging your kid to have an active relationship with their health, I think is a very important thing to do, because just speaking personally, I didn't. And you can be fat and you can be healthy, and there are a lot of people who we would consider fat or who would be considered obese on the BMI scale who have very active relationships with their health. And I think it's important to let fat kids know that and to remind them that. And if you go to their doc, go to the doctor with them, make sure that that doctor isn't leading with your fat, and that's a problem. You know, go into the doctor and make sure that they're leading with. Let's talk about your health. Let's look at other metrics that aren't the number on the scale, that aren't bmi. You know, let's talk about. Is your blood sugar high? Okay. You can address that, you know, in a way that isn't necessarily fat shaving, you know, your blood pressure, those kind of things. Yeah.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Your point about it being the filter through which you see the world and it being a world that's kind of dictated by thin people, I think is also quite interesting. I mean, my producer just sent me a tweet that Emma Fitzsimmons from the New York Times, who's the New York Times bureau chief in City hall, just put out that said Mayor Eric Adams just told a reporter at his weekly news conference that it looks like he's been working out and working on his summer but body. And that's just kind of like everything that we see is through. Yeah, go ahead.

[Ian Carmel]

It is. It's. And you don't want to be a bummer, right? You don't want to be the person who say, like, hey, if you. If you've been working on your arms, if you've been hitting curls at the gym and you want to come in your biceps popping out of a tight T shirt. We. You know, I get. I mean, I mean, maybe you should. The mayor shouldn't be commenting on anyone's body. It's probably the right answer, but you don't want to not have. Be able to do that at A barbecue or. Right. Or anything like that. And I personally don't think we should chuck the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not one of those people. I just happen to believe that we don't need everything to be quite so buttoned down. But I think let's, you know, that's okay. A fat person works out too, Right.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Well, for more than eight years, you were a writer on the Late Late show with James Corden. And some of the jokes that you wrote were self deprecating jokes about fat people which you knew would work. Do you feel like fat jokes are looked at as critically as other kinds of jokes in terms of crossing a line or what was your experience looking back on those jokes?

[Ian Carmel]

No, certainly not. I mean, and certainly not when it's a fat person delivering them, which is what we were doing. You know, I was, James is fat. I'm fat. I was fatter then. And I would write these jokes that I knew would work for him because I knew they worked for me when I did stand up. They operate on the same principle. No, that line is barely there for other comedians.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

We just got a text that says, what, if any, discussions did Ian have with James Corden about struggling with weight? Like, how did that all play in with the way you decided to tackle it?

[Ian Carmel]

So at first it didn't. At first. The first, like three, four years of the show, you are figuring out as you go, you're building the boat after you've launched it out to the sea. Right. So we were doing anything. We were telling fat jokes, making his weight the butt of jokes and sketches. I remember an early sketch where we had him, him and David Beckham both shirtless, you know, during this perfume commercial. And it was the same thing that the Patrick Swayze, Chris Farley Chippendale sketch worked on, where it's like one classically handsome dude and then one guy who, of course, it's ridiculous that anyone would find him, you know, alluring in any way because he's fat and shirtless. And we would do that. And it kind of hit an inflection point for us when Bill Maher, who we shared a studio with, a studio building, we were in TV City in West Hollywood, did this rant at the end of one of his shows talking about how we should bring back fat shaming as though it had ever gone anywhere in the first place, and that we needed to fat shame fat people for their own good. And we needed to do it because they were harming themselves and they were harming the economy and the Healthcare industry by taxing it too much. And we were sitting in a meeting and that clip had gone viral, and we were just like, you know, you're the perfect person to say something about this. You have a show, you have a platform. You're a fat person. You've been fat your whole life. And you know better than anyone that fat shaming hasn't gone anywhere because he experiences it and, you know, works in defiance of it throughout his entire career. Sometimes in defiance, sometimes in compliance with it, to be frank. And we sat down and the two of us wrote something together. And I think the thing that we did on the Late Late show that I'm the most proud of that and the Paul McCartney carpool, I think I wanted to where he said, you know what? You don't need to fat shame us. We live in constant shame. That doesn't work. We need to be supported. We need to be helped. We need to be shown humanity. And after that, we stopped making fat jokes. In the monologue, we were like, we can't be saying this out of one side of our mouth and then out of the other, participating in the system that has devalued us for our entire lives.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

So if you could go back, would you have done anything differently back when you were making those fat jokes?

[Ian Carmel]

I think for the first few years, yeah. I would have loved if we could have gotten there sooner. Cause he's a funny guy. We didn't need to do that. We didn't need to throw ourselves overboard for the sake of a laugh. And every now and then it's fine. You can do that again. I don't want to live in a world where there's no fat jokes. I want to live in a world where life is better for fat people in general. And then we can keep some of the jokes. That's fine. Just let me buy a shirt. Let me go to the doctor and actually discuss my broken ankle instead of him bringing up my blood pressure first.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

It sounds like you're almost relying on it, which is interesting because it reflects something you said before the break, which was you just keep going back to what you felt safe in, like, where the comedy felt safe. And that seems like an interesting reflection there.

[Ian Carmel]

Well, absolutely. Fat joke do feel safe, because you've been making them since the first moment you found out you were fat at recess. You know when some kid tells you you're fat, and so you find out that fat's a thing, that you are it, and that it is bad all at the same time? A real triple crown Baby.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

I think we got time for just one more. Quick caller. Let's take Charlotte in Carmel, New York, no relation with our guest, Charlotte. Hey, welcome to the show.

[Host/Producer]

I'm delighted. Thank you for writing this book. And I'm going to go out and buy it. And I stopped listening to Bill Maher after that rant. That was the end of it for me. One of my pet peeves. I've been everything from a medium to a 3x L where they put the clothes for when I'm at the larger end. They either stick us at the front so everybody knows where the fat girls are, or they put us in the farthest corner with no room between the racks. Why we can't shop with everybody else, why we can't get clothes that look like everybody else's, not just great big squares with four holes in them, I don't know. But I'll take the comments off air. I love this segment. Thank you.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

Charlotte. Thank you so much for calling and for that shout out. We really appreciate you sharing. Got about 30 seconds left. So in that time, people that take this book, that they read it, what do you hope that they take from it?

[Ian Carmel]

I hope they take a conversation about fat that is not necessarily negative, one that is full of joy and empathy and also for my little sister, someone who has a doctorate in psychology and works in nutrition, also information. In each one of these chapters, I sort of plumb my soul and try to bear everything that I was going through. And then she comes through and takes that information and tries to be like, and here's what you can talk to your kids about or here's what adults are going through when that happens. And I just, you know, it's the hope that people know that they're not alone. And I know maybe that sounds trite, but it really is. Like, you're not alone. There are other people going through this and you don't have to go through it without help.

[Host/Producer]

That was Kushinavadar's conversation with Emmy nominated comedian, writer and actor Ian Carmel. His memoir is titled T Shirt Swim Club Stories from Being Fat in a World Full of Thin People.

[Guest Host Kusha Navadar]

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[Ian Carmel]

I'm gonna put you on, nephew.

[Host/Producer]

All right, unc.

[Ian Carmel]

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss? I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.