In "Lurker," A Social Climber Infiltrates A Pop Star's Circle

Summary

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Podcast Summary: All Of It (WNYC)

Episode: “In ‘Lurker,’ A Social Climber Infiltrates A Pop Star’s Circle”

Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests:

• Alex Russell (Writer & Director, Lurker)
• Théodore Pellerin (Actor, plays Matthew)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the psychological thriller film Lurker, a story about an ordinary man, Matthew, who seeks belonging by infiltrating the circle of a rising pop star, Oliver. The conversation centers on the film's nuanced take on fame, group dynamics, belonging, and modern social hierarchies, as well as behind-the-scenes insights from the creator and star.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Film’s Core Themes: Not Just About Fame

• Alex Russell, on what inspired the story:
  • The focus wasn’t strictly on fame but on group dynamics and the “gravity of a person,” or how certain individuals command the center of social circles.
  • Quote:

    “Even on like, a smaller scale... one person in a group of friends can sort of be the famous one... It’s these unspoken, icky facets of human existence. I find them very funny and very... insightful about human nature.” (02:11)

  • Fame acts as “an extreme version where it’s all very clear who’s playing what game in the hierarchy.” (02:37)

2. Matthew’s Desire for Belonging

• Théodore Pellerin discusses Matthew as a character acting from a place of childlike yearning to fit in:
  • Quote:

    “At the beginning of the film, I really see him as a child trying to make friends in a very honest way... he’s manipulating circumstances, but he’s just trying to fit in.” (03:39)

  • The journey is about learning the “codes” of new groups and coping with fear of rejection.

3. Writing in Quarantine: Motivation & Themes

• Alex Russell started the script during COVID quarantine, not initially with a set theme but from a personal urge to examine loneliness, community, and the relentless pursuit of acceptance.
  • On LA as a setting:

    “LA is full of people who probably felt rejected by their hometown or never really had one... The world stage is their community and they try to fit in, but there is no way to do that. Fame is like this sort of infinite void... Wanting community but from the entire universe.” (05:45)

  • Russell notes that the thematic threads (loneliness, belonging, grasping for scraps of community) became clearer retroactively.

4. Developing the Character of Matthew

• Théodore Pellerin auditioned in 2021, with shooting in 2024:
  • Initially, he read the script as a toxic love story, but during production, it became more about “someone doing everything he can to live a life worth living.” (07:27)

5. Alex Russell: From Writing to Directing

• Directing was not Russell’s original plan; he would have preferred someone else take the helm but was persuaded by experienced producers.
  • On the film’s “hyper-specific” tone:

    “A lot of what makes the movie work comes down to very small choices... the cringe nature of what makes people uncomfortable in this movie—that is all hyper intentional.” (09:33)

6. The Nature of Celebrity and Disillusionment

• Théodore on the shifting perception of Oliver:
  • At first, Oliver “almost felt like a god... so unattainable,” but after seeing how he and his circle operate, Matthew realizes “he isn’t a god—he’s just a guy manipulating people. And that’s something [Matthew] can do as well.” (12:00, 12:46)

7. Economic Precarity and Class Underpinnings

• Russell addresses the subtlety of class issues in Lurker:
  • Quote:

    “Even Oliver and all his friends are in the same kind of precarious financial situation... Oliver’s not in a glass mansion in the hills; he’s in a rental... His friends are all not on the payroll, no one is making money really off Oliver... Matthew is grasping at something that is also grasping at something.” (13:50-14:58)

8. Performance: Dialogue and Silence

• Théodore Pellerin reflects on acting through silence:
  • “Dialogue is always just keys for what’s really happening... Silence is always stronger on film than dialogue; it’s where most of it happens.” (16:03-16:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alex Russell (On fame as emptiness):

  “Fame is like that, I think—the feeling of wanting community, but from the entire universe or something.” (06:36)

• Théodore Pellerin (On shifting power dynamics):

  “He isn’t a god; he’s just a guy manipulating people. And that’s something he can do as well.” (12:45)

• Alex Russell (On why he directed):

  “I would have never directed the movie if, like, someone else really wanted to do it... But looking back, I don’t think I would have done it another way.” (09:00)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–03:12 — Introduction to the film and discussion of group dynamics vs. traditional fame
• 03:12–04:28 — Pellerin on Matthew’s motives and the social codes of belonging
• 04:28–06:47 — Writing process, themes of loneliness, belonging, and LA as a microcosm
• 06:47–08:27 — Pellerin’s casting timeline and early interpretations of the script
• 08:27–10:36 — Russell on unwittingly becoming the director and the intentional tone
• 11:23–13:09 — Pellerin on Matthew’s evolving view of Oliver and the disillusionment cast by fame
• 13:09–15:01 — Class and financial instability among all characters
• 15:01–16:54 — The power of acting through silence vs. dialogue

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Episode Tone

The conversation is deeply thoughtful, laced with self-awareness and candidly–sometimes humorously–acknowledges the “icky,” uncomfortable truths about human nature, group hierarchies, and the modern pursuit of relevance.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an insightful dive into Lurker, examining both its surface thrills and deeper meditations on belonging, social status, and the elusive allure of fame. Both Russell and Pellerin offer intelligent, nuanced perspectives on character, creative process, and the film’s subtle class commentary—making this conversation essential listening for anyone interested in the psychology of group dynamics and the dark side of cultural aspiration.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign this is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. A gripping new psychological thriller shows what happens when a fan becomes too close to their idol. The film is called Lurker. In a New York Times review, it called it a tight and wicked little film. It follows a normie named Matthew and a singer named Oliver. Matthew is one of those people who has sort of a parasocial relationship with Oliver, who is on the edge of fame. Matthew meets Oliver when he comes into the store where Matthew is working. Through smarts and manipulation, Matthew makes it to the edge of the inner circle of a pop star about to make it big. But jealousy and ownership and belittling leads to a toxic mess. An NPR pop culture happy hour reviewed states. In his feedback debut, Lurker's writer and director Alex Russell gets this paradox just right on top of a lot of the other icky facets of human existence. Lurker is now playing in theaters. Joining us now to discuss the film is its writer and director, Alex Russell. Hi, Alex.

[B]

Hi. How's it going?

[A]

It's going okay. And also joining us, I'm going to try to get your name correctly. Theodore Pellegrin. Was I right?

[C]

It's great. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having us.

[A]

Stars is Matthew, by the way. Alex, what particular aspects of fame were you thinking about when you were thinking about Lurker?

[B]

I think, if I'm being honest, I wasn't thinking that much about fame. I was thinking more about sort of the gravity of a person and, you know, even on like, a smaller scale, one, you know, one person in a group of friends can sort of be the famous one. I don't know. I'm, I'm kind of thinking this just because of who your last guest was, which was really fun to realize over the past couple minutes, but thinking about girls and thinking about groups of friends and where sort of the gravity lies and who, you know, recently I was thinking about there's always one person in the friend group who everyone goes to, goes to their apartment or something like that. And it's like, why don't we ever go to my apartment? And it's sort of these, these unspoken, like you were quoting sort of icky facets of human existence. And I find them very funny and I find them very sort of. I think they can provide insights about human nature. And I think that's really what I was thinking about. And then fame was sort of almost like a setting, an extreme version of all this where it's all very clear who's playing what game? In the hierarchy. But, you know, there was a version of this movie that could have just taken place in. In like a fraternity or something like that.

[A]

That's interesting. Tidore, your character's life changes sort of in an instance at the opening of the film, you stumble on a song that you can put on that, you know, Oliver will respond to, and then you play it kind of cool. What did you want us to understand about Matthew in that moment?

[C]

Well, I think in that moment he's. I really, at the beginning of the film, I really see him as kind of a. Just a child trying to make friends in quite a very honest way. I mean, he is manipulating circumstances and trying to. But he's just trying to fit in at the beginning. So, yeah, I very much relate to what Alex is saying. To me, it never really felt like it was the center of. It was about fame. It was always about just really wanting to belong to something and just the fear of being rejected. And also the kind of quick education that someone goes through learning the codes of a new group, social group, and trying to emulate it to fit in.

[A]

Alex, in your director statement, you mentioned you originally set out to write this script during some free time during the quarantine. Did you have an idea about themes you wanted to write about?

[B]

Yes, I think, you know, retroactively it's easy to articulate the themes, you know, some of them you just mentioned and sort of the synopsis of the film. But I really think that when I set out to write it, I was not thinking sort of top down in that way thematically I'm. I more so just like had a feeling inside of me that I wanted to explore and sort of purge and extract and unravel. And I knew that themes would come out of that, you know, whether it be sort of, you know, sort of larger like loneliness or belonging or community or sort of desperate way in which people are sort of trying to grasp for, you know, scraps in la. I mean, something I was just thinking about was like, you know, I think people that grow up knowing sort of what their group is and what their community is and being anchored to that in a healthy way don't necessarily do what's going on in this movie. They don't move out of their hometown to la, but LA is full of people who. Who probably felt rejected by their hometown or never really had one to begin with. And they're all here to. It's now like the world stage is kind of like their community and where they're trying to Fit in, but there is no way to do that. That's why I kind of. I think about fame as sort of like this sort of infinite void of nothingness where like the people who are addicted to it, you know, there's no, there's no satisfaction in it whatsoever. It's like you're trying to. You're trying to be known and be seen by an infinite quantity. You know, fame is like that, I think the feeling of wanting community, but from the entire universe or something.

[A]

Preach. You were talking to the choir. Teodor. At what stage did you actually receive the script?

[C]

It was a while ago. I auditioned in 2021 and I think we shot in 2024. So, yeah, three years before shooting. Very much during COVID And how did.

[A]

You put together your character?

[C]

Well, honestly, it was so long ago that I don't really remember. I think that at first I. I viewed it a bit, maybe more in the lens of kind of a love story or a toxic love story that, you know, that gets. That gets very dirty but not dirty. Not that dirty in a sexy way, but dirty in an emotional way. And then I think that actually shooting the movie, it became a bit more about someone just doing everything he can in order to try to live a life that is for him, worth living. And. Yeah, so I had to kind of readjust a bit my reading of it before shooting.

[A]

Alex, you have a lot of experience on sets on Beef Dave the Bear, but Lurker is your first feature length debut as a director. When did you realize that you would step into the role of the director because you wrote it? Were you always going to direct it?

[B]

No, that was absolutely not the ambition at the time. I, I really. It was very low stakes. I just wanted to finish something that was longer. And I also, I also want to say I really didn't spend time on any of those sets. I was going like, I was just in the writers room. So I got, I get left out of the fun part and. Or really it's often the part that's like the most like war is being on set. So I wasn't super prepared for that real life, sort of hyper social, hyper physical event of shooting. And I think I would have never directed the movie if like someone else really wanted to do it. You know what I mean? Like people weren't exactly dying to. Dying to take this on. And it, it took sort of, you know, producers who had, who knew how to surround a first time director with people who knew what they were doing to convince me that, that it was possible. And then looking back, I don't think I would have done it another way because it's so. It's so specific. And a lot of what makes the movie work comes down to very small choices. Whether it's even just down to the authenticity of these, you know, wardrobe or something like that. Just knowing. Knowing what's going to work for. For this world and knowing kind of. The movie has a very specific tone and it has a lot to do with like what I find funny and sort of the minutia of human to human interactions. Whether it's just a look or like a little, you know, a joke, just like going a little bit too far, you know, that sort of the sort of like cringe nature of like a lot of what makes people uncomfortable in this movie that is all hyper intentional. And I don't know if another director would have been so sort of honed in on that.

[A]

We're discussing the film Lurker. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of It. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are writer, director Alex Russell and actor Theodore Pelerin. We're talking about the film Lurker, which is playing theaters now. It's about a retail employee who develops a relationship with an emerging pop star. Theodore Matthew, who you play, he gets kind of close to Oliver. How does Matthew feel about Oliver as a human being?

[C]

I think it's very different how he feels about him at the beginning of the film and towards the end. I think probably in the beginning, you know, Matthew's in la and maybe celebrity is kind of like the highest ideal there is for him. So. So to me, Oliver must have felt like a. Almost like a God at the beginning of the film. Something that is so unattainable and just kind of miraculous to be in contact with. And so to have an access to him is just a chance that he can't let go. He has to. He has to get in. And then I think that he sees the mechanisms that are in place around him and around Oliver and by Oliver and sort of how inspiration comes and music comes and ideas and. And also the social dynamics that are around him where everyone is fighting for their place. And also Oliver is kind of orchestrating the fight. So I think that he goes through. He still wants to be there, but he goes through a disillusionment where after the first half of the film he's like, well, I think they don't have much more than me. They're Just at a different place. So I think I kind of see them on the same spectrum, just at different ends of it. And then that's how he's able to shift the dynamic and take power, because he isn't a God. He's just a guy manipulating people. And that's something he can do as well.

[A]

Alex, Some critics have brought up how this film looks at class because Matthew's in retail at the beginning of the film. He can't afford some of the travel in the film. At one point, he's like, I don't have the money to give you. How present was this in. In your mind when you wrote the film?

[B]

Honestly, not that present. And in fact, I wanted to. I wanted to make it seem like even Oliver and all of his friends are on the same kind of precarious financial situation.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Like, if you look closely, like, you know, Oliver's not in, like a. Like a glass mansion in the hills. He's in, like, a rental place that, like, the label put together for him and that could go away next year. His friends are all not on the payroll. No one is making money, really, off of Oliver. And it's. It's really about, you know, what happens after this movie that decides if they ever find some stability. So I kind of wanted. I wanted that to be observable. But obviously it's still, like, it's still within grasp. Right. Oliver could eventually get somewhere that he could put all of these people in position to make money or have a real job, but everyone is sort of in a different precarious position right now. Everything is seeming very temporary, and there's a little bit that sort of indicates that, but I think Matthew is grasping at something that is also grasping at something, and it's all very slippery.

[A]

Todora, I have to ask. There's so much of the film which is just your reaction. What do you like about playing a part that doesn't have dialogue in certain parts, where it's just you and your face?

[C]

Well, I mean, I never think of it that. That way. I think, you know, dialogue is in every art. I think for every role. It's very often dialogue is.

[B]

Is.

[C]

I mean, quite obviously is. You're saying something, but it's not really what you're meaning or the truth is something that you're not saying or that you're communicating in another way or. And so dialogue is never. Is always just keys for what's really happening. And it's always just like trying to understand where the truth is and what the character of the character is, I think not all the time, of course, but I think most characters, like most of us, have costumes that we put on in social life or in different forms. So I think with great writing, it's always kind of. Which was the case for Lurker. It's always great to then have those truths and those kind of epiphanies of what is really happening come to you. But yeah, I think silence is always stronger on film than dialogue. It's where most of it happens, I feel a lot of the time.

[A]

The name of the film is Lurker. It is playing in theaters now. Thanks to writer and director Alex Russell and Theodore Pellerin. Thank you for your time.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[D]

This is Ira Flaydo, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.