Podcast Summary: All Of It (WNYC)

Episode: “In ‘Lurker,’ A Social Climber Infiltrates A Pop Star’s Circle”

Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests:

• Alex Russell (Writer & Director, Lurker)
• Théodore Pellerin (Actor, plays Matthew)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the psychological thriller film Lurker, a story about an ordinary man, Matthew, who seeks belonging by infiltrating the circle of a rising pop star, Oliver. The conversation centers on the film's nuanced take on fame, group dynamics, belonging, and modern social hierarchies, as well as behind-the-scenes insights from the creator and star.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Film’s Core Themes: Not Just About Fame

• Alex Russell, on what inspired the story:
  • The focus wasn’t strictly on fame but on group dynamics and the “gravity of a person,” or how certain individuals command the center of social circles.
  • Quote:

    “Even on like, a smaller scale... one person in a group of friends can sort of be the famous one... It’s these unspoken, icky facets of human existence. I find them very funny and very... insightful about human nature.” (02:11)

  • Fame acts as “an extreme version where it’s all very clear who’s playing what game in the hierarchy.” (02:37)

2. Matthew’s Desire for Belonging

• Théodore Pellerin discusses Matthew as a character acting from a place of childlike yearning to fit in:
  • Quote:

    “At the beginning of the film, I really see him as a child trying to make friends in a very honest way... he’s manipulating circumstances, but he’s just trying to fit in.” (03:39)

  • The journey is about learning the “codes” of new groups and coping with fear of rejection.

3. Writing in Quarantine: Motivation & Themes

• Alex Russell started the script during COVID quarantine, not initially with a set theme but from a personal urge to examine loneliness, community, and the relentless pursuit of acceptance.
  • On LA as a setting:

    “LA is full of people who probably felt rejected by their hometown or never really had one... The world stage is their community and they try to fit in, but there is no way to do that. Fame is like this sort of infinite void... Wanting community but from the entire universe.” (05:45)

  • Russell notes that the thematic threads (loneliness, belonging, grasping for scraps of community) became clearer retroactively.

4. Developing the Character of Matthew

• Théodore Pellerin auditioned in 2021, with shooting in 2024:
  • Initially, he read the script as a toxic love story, but during production, it became more about “someone doing everything he can to live a life worth living.” (07:27)

5. Alex Russell: From Writing to Directing

• Directing was not Russell’s original plan; he would have preferred someone else take the helm but was persuaded by experienced producers.
  • On the film’s “hyper-specific” tone:

    “A lot of what makes the movie work comes down to very small choices... the cringe nature of what makes people uncomfortable in this movie—that is all hyper intentional.” (09:33)

6. The Nature of Celebrity and Disillusionment

• Théodore on the shifting perception of Oliver:
  • At first, Oliver “almost felt like a god... so unattainable,” but after seeing how he and his circle operate, Matthew realizes “he isn’t a god—he’s just a guy manipulating people. And that’s something [Matthew] can do as well.” (12:00, 12:46)

7. Economic Precarity and Class Underpinnings

• Russell addresses the subtlety of class issues in Lurker:
  • Quote:

    “Even Oliver and all his friends are in the same kind of precarious financial situation... Oliver’s not in a glass mansion in the hills; he’s in a rental... His friends are all not on the payroll, no one is making money really off Oliver... Matthew is grasping at something that is also grasping at something.” (13:50-14:58)

8. Performance: Dialogue and Silence

• Théodore Pellerin reflects on acting through silence:
  • “Dialogue is always just keys for what’s really happening... Silence is always stronger on film than dialogue; it’s where most of it happens.” (16:03-16:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alex Russell (On fame as emptiness):

  “Fame is like that, I think—the feeling of wanting community, but from the entire universe or something.” (06:36)

• Théodore Pellerin (On shifting power dynamics):

  “He isn’t a god; he’s just a guy manipulating people. And that’s something he can do as well.” (12:45)

• Alex Russell (On why he directed):

  “I would have never directed the movie if, like, someone else really wanted to do it... But looking back, I don’t think I would have done it another way.” (09:00)

Important Timestamps

• 00:00–03:12 — Introduction to the film and discussion of group dynamics vs. traditional fame
• 03:12–04:28 — Pellerin on Matthew’s motives and the social codes of belonging
• 04:28–06:47 — Writing process, themes of loneliness, belonging, and LA as a microcosm
• 06:47–08:27 — Pellerin’s casting timeline and early interpretations of the script
• 08:27–10:36 — Russell on unwittingly becoming the director and the intentional tone
• 11:23–13:09 — Pellerin on Matthew’s evolving view of Oliver and the disillusionment cast by fame
• 13:09–15:01 — Class and financial instability among all characters
• 15:01–16:54 — The power of acting through silence vs. dialogue

Episode Tone

The conversation is deeply thoughtful, laced with self-awareness and candidly–sometimes humorously–acknowledges the “icky,” uncomfortable truths about human nature, group hierarchies, and the modern pursuit of relevance.

Conclusion

This episode delivers an insightful dive into Lurker, examining both its surface thrills and deeper meditations on belonging, social status, and the elusive allure of fame. Both Russell and Pellerin offer intelligent, nuanced perspectives on character, creative process, and the film’s subtle class commentary—making this conversation essential listening for anyone interested in the psychology of group dynamics and the dark side of cultural aspiration.