← All Of It with Alison Stewart
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Dr. Valerie Paley
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Listener supported on WNYC Studios.
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Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. There are thousands of books set in New York, but when you want to read the definitive book about New York, one that lays out how the modern city was shaped and misshaped the there's only one book. It's the Power Robert Moses and the Fall of New York by Robert Caro. Published 50 years ago, the Power Broker describes how Robert Moses, an unelected public servant, secured more power and influence over the city's development projects than any other official, including the various governors and mayors that came and went during his 44 years in power. The book took Robert Kara seven years to research and write. And it's that process that's on display right now at the New York Historical Society in a new exhibit titled Robert Caro's the Power Broker at 50. In it, the museum mines Caro's archives to demonstrate how he turned handwritten notes, tally marks of cars entering Jones beach, and transcripts of interviews into chapters in the book. Joining me now to discuss the exhibit is Dr. Valerie Paley. She's the senior vice president and director of the New York Historical Society. Nice to meet you, Valerie.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Nice to meet you too.
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Alison Stewart
Listeners. We want to hear from you. Have you read the Power Broker? What was your experience like? Give us a call or text to us 2124-3396-9221-2433, WNYC. You can also reach out to us on social media. Lovenyc. Did reading it change your understanding of New York? What was the most revelatory part to you? Call or text us 212-433-969-2212 4338 wnyc. The exhibit begins with Robert Caro, pre biographer, working as a young beat reporter for Newsday. How did he get interested in Robert Moses?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
I think, well, what's wonderful about the exhibit, and by the way, I'm the director of the library at the New York Historical Society, not the director of the Historical Society. What's interesting is to see how Caro's process evolves. He was looking at different things having to do with the city, the bridge and bridges, and why exactly were certain agreed upon initiatives switched over? And it seems as though all roads pointed back to Robert Moses. And with this sort of like, hunch, Robert Caro starts looking at the, this form of power that discarded a kind of formal elected recognition in favor of a different kind of access through the public authority, which is how Moses got his power.
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Host/Interviewer
After Caro gets a publishing deal to write the Power Broker, he sends Robert Moses a letter requesting his assistance in writing the biography. Moses did not respond. Well, tell us a little bit about that interaction and what you took away from that interaction.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Well, I think with the enthusiasm and naivete of a young beat reporter, Carol reaches out to Moses and says, hey, I have a contract to write your biography. And it's a very pleasant and friendly letter that he writes to Moses. And immediately he gets a very terse response back, which just has nothing to do with, wants nothing to do with the project or with this young unknown writer reporter. But unbeknownst to Caro, Moses is already doing a little bit of research of his own into who this Robert Caro guy is and then decides to double down and not in fact participate. Which poses some complications for sure for a researcher trying to do this work without the cooperation of the subject.
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Host/Interviewer
Now wait, did Moses respond directly to Caro or did he have his people?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
No, exactly. He had one of his people do it. But in fact, he was aware of what was going on. And ultimately, I think Robert Caro was able to see him and speak with him until things sort of spiraled in a different direction and he stopped speaking to Caro. But what's interesting is how in his process, Robert Caro decides, well, let me make a kind of family tree of people who have access to Moses and None of the people in the inner circle would speak to Caro, but some in concentric outer circles would. And ultimately he worked his way into the center. And in the exhibit, you see this sort of very interesting in Caro's handwriting, a family tree that he's marked up and slowly but surely finds his way into the inner circle and to Carol, to Moses himself.
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Alison Stewart
And why would. Why do you think that family tree is a good thing for people to contemplate when they see it? Why do you think it's part of the exhibit?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Well, it's part of the exhibit partly because it shows a very initial part of the process that the beginning of this colossal, monumental book and the research that went into it, partly because Robert Caro is quite fond of looking at that and how it sparks stories of his own. There's nothing more fascinating than watching him stand before all of these documents in the exhibit that we've selected, which each document tells a story of its own in a way. And he is such a wonderful storyteller. So one can stand for hours in front of all of these documents and learn more about his process. But I think that it shows that the mind and the work of an extraordinary researcher at play and also gives researchers, as well as those who've read the book, a sense of what Robert Caro had to do to learn more about and create this multivalence portrait of this man, Robert Moses.
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Alison Stewart
Let's take some calls. Let's talk to David. Hi, David, thank you so much for calling in.
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Caller David
Hi.
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Caller Chris
Hi.
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Caller David
So I read the power broker about 15 years ago, and I enjoyed it so much, though, because it gave a better understanding for me about New York City and how, you know, it developed. Why there are such problems on the west side highway are. There were years ago when I was driving more and.
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Caller Nancy
Just how.
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Caller David
How powerful he was. It was. It was fascinating. I really, I couldn't believe, you know, how much of an influence he had on everything. So, David, Yeah.
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Alison Stewart
Thanks so much for your call. Let's talk to Chris. Oh, yes, please.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Well, Robert Caro does say that you can't know the story of New York City without knowing the story of Robert Moses. And very much in keeping with what this comment just said.
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Alison Stewart
We had to explain, though, if you go to the exhibit, it took Caro seven years to write the Power Broker. How long did he actually think it would take him when he began?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
A year or so, really. And there is, you know, it was a great adversity, too. He decided he really needed to devote much more time to this project and through great hardship had to sell his house so that he could have the funds to do this non stop. And upon getting a contract, it took that much longer. But one can see not only the evidence of the book itself, the published book, but the evidence of the archive, how much and how painstakingly how much time he spent on making sure he got the story right and from many different points of view through the people he interviewed.
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Host/Interviewer
Let's talk to Chris, who's calling from Westchester. Hi Chris, thanks so much for calling all of it.
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Caller Chris
Thanks so much.
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Caller Nancy
How are you?
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Caller Chris
Power Broker? Amazing book, certainly, apart from just this plot and subplot of Power. Just for anybody who lives, walks, drives in New York area. It's amazing just to see how so much of what was around you developed through Robert Moses. I will say, however, it is a very long book, as anybody who's read it knows. So for me it's kind of been a work in progress. I've started it Stops and Fits. I have it both as actually on my bedside table and I also have it as an audiobook. I will say the audiobook is interesting because the narrator is not quite as compelling as one might hope for, but it is an amazing book, an amazing story, and certainly anybody who lives in New York and wants to see what's around them and how it came about, it's a must read.
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Host/Interviewer
Thank you so much for calling in. We got a text that says the Power Broker is like a thousand pages long. It sits on my coffee table where it has been for almost 10 years. I've read the first four pages a handful of times. We should actually say it was actually supposed to be longer. Valerie.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Yes, one third of the manuscript was cut. And for those of you who have seen Lizzie Gottlieb's wonderful documentary, turned Every Page, the Adventures of Robert Carroll and Robert Gottlieb, her dad. It's a lovely documentary and we see the editorial process between Bob Carroll and Bob Gottlieb and how they argue over every word, every sentence. And a lot of the book, a third of it wound up on the so called cutting room floor. So imagine that even longer book. But certainly reading the Power Broker or even trying to read it or having it on your bedside table is a point of intellectual pride, I think, for many people. And if you get through it, we do have a mug at the New York Historical Society that says, I finished the Power Broker, but I suppose you could cheat and buy the mug anyway.
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Host/Interviewer
And by the way, we actually had Lizzie Gottlieb on the show. So if you wanna check that out, they can go to our website. Let's talk to Fred, calling in from Plainview. Hi, Fred.
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Caller David
Hi. How you doing?
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Host/Interviewer
Great.
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Caller David
I guess. You know, during the pandemic, every political reporter seemed to have it on their shelf behind them. And I don't know whether they read it or not, so it kind of compelled me to read it. I had seen numerous. I've seen through the years numerous interviews with Robert Caro, whether in New York, a documentary. I saw him at the New York Historical Society once, and I said, I got to go to the original source. And the thing that struck me was how much power without being elected that Moses had. And for that length of time, it just amazed me. And, you know, and the good he did and also a lot of the negative. So that's just what struck me.
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Alison Stewart
Thank you so much for calling in. Valerie, did you want to respond?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Yes, as a matter of fact, again, referring back to the Lizzie Gottlieb documentary, there are images of people speaking in their libraries or dining rooms or wherever during zoom presentations during the pandemic with the book behind them. So, yes, that attests very visually to exactly what the caller just said. But indeed, I think that it is perhaps the first investigation of this kind of power of public authority without ever having been elected to office that Robert Carroll was able to uncover. And that's fascinating. And in fact, President Obama himself had commented on that when he was honoring Robert Caro said this. I read it as a 22 year old and it changed the way I looked at power. And in fact, that's what Robert Caro has done throughout his career, just like investigated power not only through Robert Moses, but also through Lyndon Johnson and how those power structures shape the lives of individuals and societies.
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Alison Stewart
We got a good text. I read the power broker over six months in the 1980s. It was a library book that I renewed, reserved, and had a friend reserve over and over again. It's the best nonfiction book I've ever read. Part biography, part history of New York, and a textbook on how politics actually work. The change of Moses from poet and idealist was sad. And every time now I see a major road without a train line on it. I got a little mad. I once saw Robert Carroll on the street. I yelled out great books. And I talked his ear off for five minutes. If he hears this now, I apologize. That's Joe calling in from Westerfield Westfield.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
So do you know to that point, I mean, it's Robert Caro is kind of mythic. Not only on the Upper west side, but just among researchers, among historians, just there is something about his work that is so inspiring. I joked with him that when he comes to the New York Historical Society to speak or to sign his books, there are lines around the block. I said, you're like our resident Mick Jagger. He said, yeah, Mick Jagger is about my age too, and look at him. But truly, he's like our rock star. And yeah, I'm sure he would be delighted to hear a great book and to hear people's reactions to them, his books, not just this one.
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Alison Stewart
I'm speaking with Dr. Valerie Perley, a vice president at the New York Historical Society and director of the library at the New York Historical Society. We're talking about Robert Caro's the power broker at 50. It's open now through February 2nd of 2025. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Dr. Valerie Paley, Director of the library at the New York Historical Society. And we are talking about Robert Caro as the power broker at 50. It is now open the exhibit. It's open now through February 2, 2025. In the new York Times obituary for Robert Moses, valerie they wrote, Mr. Moses was deeply hurt by the great attention given the book, the only full length investigative biography of him ever written. He was understandably much happier with the version of things he presented in his autobiography published in 1969, which he called public works a dangerous trade. What was Moses reaction, initial reaction to the power broker?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Well, he was annoyed. It's public radio. I can't say what he really was, but he was proper word. But he did respond to the Power broker in a 23 page statement. It was 3, 500 words. The power Broker was was serialized in the New Yorker before the actual publication of the book on September 16, 1974. And in late August of 74, Moses made this public declaration of his displeasure with Caro's work. And at that point, the two men were no longer on speaking terms. So what we have in the exhibit is a copy of the statement that Caro clearly had printed out, and it bears Caro's handwritten reactions, which perhaps we say is the closest thing to a conversation between them. For example, what we're showing in the exhibit is the part where, where Moses is saying, I don't understand what he means by power broker. And Carol responds in, in a marginalia, in his own, handwritten, in his own handwriting. If Mr. M tells me which of the two words power broker he doesn't understand. I will be glad to enlighten him. So it's sort of like them fighting words and this is their, their argument and the discussion. But it sort of had to end with this, with this document. And it is in. Two pages of the document are in the exhibition.
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Alison Stewart
My favorite part of that document, he calls Robert Caro a snooper.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
That's right.
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Alison Stewart
It's my favorite line of all.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Snooper.
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Alison Stewart
So good.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Yes, indeed.
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Alison Stewart
Let's talk to Joe in Staten Island. Hi Joe, thanks for calling.
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Caller Joe
Hi, thanks for having me. My J School Professor, NY 1 Legend, Errol Lewis told me to read the Power Broker and I read it and it gave me such an understanding of the politics in the city here. And you know, the way that Robert Moses was able to get power was he would bring projects to, you know, election winning projects to politicians and say, this isn't going to cost the taxpayer anything because we're going to sell bonds on the nickels and dimes that the Triborough Bridge Authority brings in. And with those bonds he made many people rich, you know, and so you're spreading that around. So always looking for a Moses project. But of course we know that, you know, we don't know. But I mean, many studies have shown that when this is the way that we do public works, the taxpayer eventually pays more for it than they should have. And this is exactly the legacy of Robert Moses. And you can see it right now in congestion pricing. We're selling bonds on the congestion pricing. Eventually congestion pricing is supposed to reduce congestion, so that will reduce the income coming in. How are we going to pay back the bond sellers? You know, it's kind of his legacy is wider than you even think and you know, it needs to be examined a little bit more. But it's such an amazing book and I love all the personal touches like the speedboat rides in Jones beach, his waving to people and yeah, a wonderful book. And his legacy is still with us.
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Host/Interviewer
Appreciate your call. Yeah, you know, Valerie, we're talking about the objects that we see in the display. When you think about the objects in the display, how do they have relations to what we're talking about now? He just talked about congestion pricing.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Well, I mean, I think that you see a progression of not only, you know, facts, the narrative of the life and times of Robert Moses, but you see the ways that Robert Caro was able to uncover those different aspects of the story. As I said, like every single object tells its own story. But we decided of this 1200 page book to focus in on the story of East Tremont, the One Mile chapter, which in many ways is the big set piece of the, of. Of the book, which, which tells the story of how, you know, 60,000 families were. Were displaced by the building of the Cross Bronx Expressway. And this is, you know, it's important, it's stand. It's a standout chapter. And, and we, we show the nuance, but also the humanity. I think that we see that the, the contrast between what Robert Carroll was looking at, which were the people, the people and their loneliness versus Robert Moses, who just saw highways and I guess a path to even greater power. So I think that in aggregate, a viewer of the exhibition as well as a researcher in the archive, can see, you know, a mind, the mind of a consummate researcher at work and putting, putting together this, this, this work of art that almost reads like fiction. You know, Robert Caro's style is so evocative. It's not dry at all. And it can be, you know, certainly a very dry story, but he makes it so alive with, with anecdote as well as humanity.
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Host/Interviewer
Texan I'm an architect. Reading the Power Broker, it was incredible insight into New York City and New York State we have today. However, midway through, I had to stop because Mogus. Because Moses became too Machiavellian for me.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
That's interesting.
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Host/Interviewer
Let's take a call from Nancy. Hi, Nancy.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Hi.
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Caller Nancy
Thanks so much for taking your call. I have a recollection of reading. I think it's at the start of the book where Robert Caro is up in Albany and there's a big project, maybe a bridge, and everybody is against it, and everybody is against it, and it's absolutely going to fail. And he's just circulating the floor and Robert Moses comes in and he sees like a ripple effect, how suddenly the buzz changes and suddenly maybe it's not going to pass. And suddenly by the end of Robert Moses walking through the crowd, that bridge is nowhere. And it was for Robert Moses, I think, for rather Robert Caro wanting to understand about power. And for me, I think about the autocracy in America. There's even a podcast called that Now. And how for an autocrat, what's essential is loyalty. What's essential, however, it is gained, no matter how right or wrong, it has nothing to do with anything. To be loyal to the autocrat is what's important. And that was what was. And that was kind of how he showed it in certain ways. With Robert Caro, I feel like, we're lucky. He had a vision. It might not have served everybody, but it was, you know, his vision for the people.
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Alison Stewart
I'm going to. You know what, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you to stop there just because we're trying to get one more call in. Thank you so much for calling. Lynn, Real quick.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Hi.
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Caller Lynn
I consider myself an amateur historian and particularly as a native New Yorker or New York. And over the pandemic, I had the book on my shelf. I pulled it out because I saw it on all the reporters bookshelf and I also got the audible. So both of them kept me company. And I'm one who fascinated by the book, the audio. I went to the museum, I saw the exhibit almost in its first couple of weeks. I've seen the documentary and I even saw Ralph Fiennes in his performance at the Shed.
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Alison Stewart
You are fully dope. You are fully Robert Moses. Completely. Before we go, I thought this was interesting that you had a TikTok that related to Robert Moses that really, really showed how it could affect people today. Would you describe that for us real quick?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Yes. It's a TikTok that in which someone who read the book and, and learned that Moses certainly Caro does level the criticism of Moses that he was a racist in the Harlem playground. Put little sculptures of monkeys in this playground in a sort of racist way. And she is Shiloh Frederick is able to, through her tiktoks get these monkeys this decorative image on the gate removed. And you know, whether you agree with this or not, the point is this. The Power Broker and Robert Caro's narrative still inspires this kind of passion about the city and inspires new generations to think about the legacy of Robert Moses and, and how the story of the city is very much the story of his own quest for power.
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Alison Stewart
Final question. There were apparently Jane Jacob chapters that were in this book originally. Do we know what happened to them? Are they anywhere to be found?
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Everyone asks that. Everybody asks about that. And right now the archive is just about ready for researchers to start plumbing. We're. We have the complete Caro archive, which includes his work on Lyndon Johnson as well. It will be open to researchers starting with the 16th. On the 16th, which is the actual 50th anniversary of the publication of the Power Broker. But so far we have not found those Jane Jacobs chapters. We have processed. We have about 150 boxes of books, books of boxes of documents and other materials that came to us as part of this archive and nope, haven't found them yet, but still looking. But one thing we do have is a wonderful letter, congratulatory letter from Jane Jacobs to Carol. They were very much kindred spirits in which she congratulates him for the compassion he has and his curiosity and his hard work and his good sense. So we do have some evidence of Jane Jacobs reaction, but no, not yet. We still have yet to find those Jane Jacobs chapters which hopefully are not lost. But maybe they were lost on that cutting room floor.
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Host/Interviewer
Robert Caro is the power broker at 50 is now at the New York Historical Society. I have been speaking with Dr. Valerie Paley. Thank you so much for your time today.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Thank you. Ellison.
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Alison Stewart
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Dr. Valerie Paley
These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.
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Alison Stewart
Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.
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Dr. Valerie Paley
Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.
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Host/Interviewer
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