Jordan Carlos Says Better Partnerships Need 'Chore-play'

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Jordan Carlos Says Better Partnerships Need 'Chore-play'"

Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart, WNYC
Guest: Jordan Carlos
Airdate: July 20, 2026
Episode Focus: Rethinking household labor, masculinity, and partnership dynamics in marriage—blending comedy with serious reflection

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the often-invisible dynamics of household labor, gender roles, and partnership in marriage—especially in heterosexual relationships. Comedian Jordan Carlos joins Alison Stewart to discuss his new book, "Chore Play: The Marriage Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass." Drawing from his own marriage struggles, Carlos examines how cultural expectations, emotional labor, and “chore-play” (meaningful participation in domestic work) can make or break relationships. The conversation blends humor and honesty, providing practical advice, audience stories, and moments of self-deprecating insight.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin of "Chore-play" and Confessions of a Reformed Slob

• Chore-play Defined:
  • Carlos shares that the term comes from his mother, who would notice when his father made a display of doing chores, knowing he'd get "points" for being seen cleaning.
  • “Get caught working, right? ... If I sweep up the kitchen floor a little bit and she catches me doing it, you know, I’m gonna get points…” (Jordan Carlos, 02:45)
• Personal Wake-up Call:
  • Carlos admits he was looking for a "mother" in his wife, failing to mature into an equal partner.
  • “I didn’t ever really grow up when I should have grown up. And so… I was looking for someone to clean up after me… so I could just go be an artist. That was problem number one.” (Jordan Carlos, 04:08)

2. Invisible Labor & the Gendered Dynamics of Housework

• The Mental Load:
  • Carlos highlights how, traditionally, women carry the unseen burden of planning, anticipating needs, and managing family logistics.
  • “[Invisible labor is] all that extra work that she puts into that… planning what the next meal will be… figuring out when my kid needs new sneakers.” (Michael, caller, 10:34; Jordan Carlos response, 11:12)
• Cultural Conditioning:
  • Many men wait to be asked to do tasks, rather than proactively engaging.
  • “They’re happy to go take out the trash, they’re happy to walk the dog… if being told to do so, rather than having the executive function to just do it themselves.” (Jordan Carlos, 09:04)
• Modeling for the Next Generation:
  • Lax attitudes toward chores set problematic examples for children.
  • “My kids know full well that I’m the messy one... so they felt that they didn’t need to clean up... you’re modeling that for your kids and it's not good.” (Jordan Carlos, 13:38)

3. When Second Decade Struggles Hit

• Challenges of Long-Term Marriage:
  • Marriage’s "second decade" requires a new partnership model, as life's complexities increase.
  • “It’s like a rocket going into space… you have to find a new operating system because… you often slip into the sandwich period… you’ll be put to the test.” (Jordan Carlos, 09:43)

4. Weaponized Incompetence

• What It Is:
  • “Weaponized incompetence” refers to feigning inability to avoid responsibilities: “We use the stereotype of being useless around the house as a way of getting out of work.” (Jordan Carlos, 19:56)
• Cultural Roots:
  • Referencing Mark Twain’s Tom Sawyer and films like Mr. Mom, Carlos notes how media narratives reinforce this trope.

5. Audience Experiences: Partners in Practice

• Guilt & Gender Reversal:
  • One caller (Kristin) describes her husband as household manager—a reversal that still creates guilt.
  • Advice from Carlos: Take five minutes to check and replenish supplies like TP, milk, or olive oil—"He might keel over and think that the toilet paper fairy came for a visit." (Jordan Carlos, 16:19)
• Learning After Loss:
  • A widower (Nabu) admits to understanding the burden of domestic logistics only after the death of his wife.
    • “It’s only after she was gone that I realized… this is what she meant by it, and this is why.” (Nabu, 17:24)
• Emotional Labor:
  • Callers and Stewart discuss how women often end up as “emotional managers” for children and relationships.
  • “A lot of what the women end up doing is the emotional labor… Who’s crying? Who’s being bullied?... Did they get their period?... that supports kids.” (Deb, 18:07)

6. Change, New Habits, and Technology

• Small Steps:
  • Jordan’s transformation started with little acts of care—e.g. making his wife coffee at exactly 7:15am.
  • "I knew that I could do one little thing that would put a smile on her face..." (Jordan Carlos, 24:19)
• Incremental, Not Radical:
  • “I cannot do radical change, but I can do incremental change until it’s like, wow, what a tectonic shift.” (Jordan Carlos, 25:24)
• Role of Technology:
  • Apps and delivery services (e.g., Instacart) can “help the slob” and were embraced as tools, not excuses.
  • “It actually worked out really great because of Instacart—this is not a plug for Instacart—but again, technology has helped the slob...” (Jordan Carlos, 27:59)
• Being Recognized:
  • Change is evident when other family members notice and appreciate new roles.
  • “Daddy got the paper towels. Daddy always gets all the stuff, right? So that really—that was like. It made me know that I had a role." (Jordan Carlos, 27:15)

7. Advice for Listeners

• Raising Self-Sufficient Sons:
  • Boys need to break from parental dependency—do their own laundry, become self-reliant (07:05).
• Non-Nagging Recommendations:
  • To get partners to read “Chore Play,” use audiobooks or peer recommendations.
  • “A lot of guys… like to do is like, listen to audiobooks and then tell you that we read a book.” (Jordan Carlos, 20:50)
• Reframing "Provider":
  • The “provider” role is more than financial—shared chores are critical.
  • “I take great comfort in that. And I see myself as a provider and so does she. Like, she’s the financial side, but I still provide for our home.” (Jacob, 22:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chore accountability:
  “What’s cute in your 20s is not cute in your 40s. And after a while, like a very educated, independent woman, like my wife, was like, I need to talk to the manager.” (Jordan Carlos, 05:56)
• On Invisible Labor:
  “You have to give a crap. You have to give a G wiz. And the Internet is so great. It’s never been a better time to be a slob, Allison.” (Jordan Carlos, 11:24)
• On Weaponized Incompetence:
  "We use the stereotype of being useless around the house as a way of getting out of work. ...I've been guilty of it." (Jordan Carlos, 19:56)
• On Intergenerational Patterns:
  “That’s what was modeled for me as well.” (Jordan Carlos, 13:38)
• On Redefining Roles:
  “I could be a little colonel at my house, you know, and like, that’s what this brittle man needed.” (Jordan Carlos, 21:39)
• On Technology as a Helper:
  “Technology has helped the slob and I found a little way to function in a Rube Goldberg machine kind of way in my home.” (Jordan Carlos, 27:59)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:39 – Episode intro: framing the topic, intro to guest, book context
• 02:45 – Origin of "Chore-play" term
• 04:08 – Jordan's insight: wanting a partner to "mother" him
• 05:48 – Examples of unhelpful or dismissive attitudes toward chores
• 07:05 – Parenting boys toward self-reliance
• 09:04 – Men waiting to be told; executive function
• 09:43 – Second decade of marriage struggles
• 10:34 – Caller Michael: the challenge of anticipating invisible needs
• 11:12 – Discussion of invisible labor
• 13:38 – Impact of parental modeling on kids
• 14:57–16:37 – Gender-reversed dynamic: household manager husband
• 17:24 – Widower Nabu's perspective: realizing labor after loss
• 18:07–19:41 – Deb on emotional labor; family story
• 19:56 – Weaponized incompetence explained
• 20:50 – How to get your partner to read the book
• 22:10 – Redefining what it means to be a provider
• 24:19–25:24 – Jordan’s step-by-step approach to change
• 27:15 – Recognition by children confirming new household roles

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Tone & Language

• Tone: Conversational, humorous, and candid, punctuated by poignant moments.
• Language: Playful, self-effacing, practical, and accessible—balancing jokes with honest, useful insights. Carlos does not shy away from calling out himself and other men while still keeping things light-hearted.

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Conclusion

Jordan Carlos’s appearance on "All Of It" delivers a refreshingly honest and funny critique of outdated gender roles and household labor in American marriages. By sharing his personal growth and inviting candid listener stories, Carlos makes a compelling case for men—especially in heterosexual partnerships—to stop “tripping over the very low bar,” embrace “chore-play,” and step up as true partners. The episode is ultimately about growing up, modeling better behavior for the next generation, and making small changes that add up to big marital rewards.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Host Intro]

All of it is supported by Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. In a small groundbreaking clinical trial, 100% of participants with a specific type of rectal cancer saw their tumors disappear using immunotherapy alone. Researchers at MSK are now studying this approach in cancers of the stomach, liver and more. And a majority of tumors are disappearing. For MSK Giving day, all gifts will be tripled. Learn [e-mail] all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

This is ALL OF it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. For the next hour, we're going to talk about men and tackling the subject of masculinity with both humor and serious reflection. Later, we'll hear from journalist Jordan Ritter Kahn, who spent four years chronicling the lives of four different men struggling with various aspects of their identity. Identity. His book is titled American Men. But first, we'll get things started with comedian Jordan Carlos and a call to action to his fellow straight guys. After more than a decade together, comedian Jordan Carlos realized his marriage might be in jeopardy. Part of the problem, Jordan learned he wasn't pulling his weight around the house as a partner or as a dad. Jordan was faced to recognize the invisible labor his wife was doing and take on some of those responsibilities. And he brings his lessons learned to his autobiographical book, Chore Play, the marriage saving magic of getting your head out of your ass. The book is equal parts heartfelt, honest and hilarious. In it, Jordan writes, arguably speaking, there's a 75% chance that what ends a marriage may well be that pile of clothes that we leave at the foot of our bed despite our person's repeated please put them away or the door. We never get around to fixing the trash. We never take out the leaves. We never rake such little things. But on a long enough timeline, they will push marriages. Read my marriage to the brink. Chore Play contains real tips, advice and wisdom and, of course, lots of jokes. During my conversation with Jordan Carlos, we took calls from listeners, but we will not be taking your calls today during this encore presentation. Here's my conversation with Jordan Carlos. So first of all, tell us where the title came from.

[Jordan Carlos]

The title just came from something my mom would say that my dad was doing. So my dad, like Ben Franklin said, get caught working, right? And so my dad would do that. Like, if it was like my mom was coming home from work, he was like, okay, if I sweep up the kitchen floor a little bit and she catches me doing it, you know, I'm gonna get points or washing the dishes and you'd be like, oh, he'd be like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my God, look at me, look at me washing these windows. My mom would be like that. It's obviously chore play. So that's where the term comes from. Always steal from the best from mama. Thank you, Mom.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you keep in the back of your head?

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, I can't always in the forefront in the back. I have to fully. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, how did your wife. First of all, before we get into the meat of the book, how did your wife feel about you writing this book?

[Jordan Carlos]

She was. She was good with it. She definitely got to hear it when we had the big launch party this Tuesday. And I finally. I mean, I think I finally got her respect. It's now an okay thing. So once that happened, she was like, thumbs up.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, you know, you're really honest in the book about the fact that you and your wife were having really difficult marital issues. You were like, sort of headed towards the D word a little bit. Looking back on it now, what do you think was the root of that hardship?

[Jordan Carlos]

The root of the hardship is I only have a few minutes here. So the root of the hardship. I'm just kidding. The root of the hardship was that I was looking for someone to mother me. Right? And so that is the problem. I didn't ever really grow up when I should have grown up. And so as a result, I was looking for someone to clean up after me, someone to cook for me a little bit, all these things, take out the trash and remember the big things so I could just go be an artist. And I think that that was. That was problem number one. That was problem number one.

[Alison Stewart]

It's sort of interesting, that whole idea of, like, I'm an artiste, I am making money, I shouldn't have to do these things. There's a little bit of that in there.

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, is it. I mean, that just felt like so odious to me. It felt like I was being punished if I had to make up the bed or like, clean up my side of the room or something like that. So that just got worse and worse because kids came into the picture, pets came into the picture, and she was really carrying the mental load. And then Covid happened, right? So if I was busy on set doing gigs, out in the world doing stand up comedy, then I had an excuse for not helping out around the house. But then when Covid happened and everything shut down, then I was just like another child, really. I was. I was kind of redundant in a way, and I was not helping. I didn't know where anything was in the house. I was just like, useless. There's so many guys like me. And that's what this book is really for, is guys that are well meaning but tripping over the very low bar that's been set somehow some way.

[Caller/Interviewer]

When you think back to those times and you think about something you said to your wife, can you share one of those moments?

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, something I said? Well, I said with my clothes, the piles, I was like, well, I mean, things all end up on the floor. Systems always fall apart, so what's the big deal, you know, oh, isn't that good? Isn't that sweet? Or just like, I'd be like, it's my. I was like, it's my mess. And I understand it has an internal logic that maybe you don't get. And so that. And then I'd be like, well, you have a standard of cleanliness that no one can meet. How about that? And so, yeah, that's. Those are fighting words. The gaslight trio right there. Oh, it works so well. I mean, listen, what's cute in your 20s is not cute in your 40s. And after a while, like a very educated, independent woman, like my wife was like, I need to talk to the manager, you know, so like there was like a kind of inventory that needed to take place there, you know, you're

[Caller/Interviewer]

making me think of how I should teach my son.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes, yes, you should teach your.

[Caller/Interviewer]

So I was reading the book last night and I was like, oh, maybe I shouldn't do the laundry twice a week.

[Alison Stewart]

Maybe he should do it one day

[Caller/Interviewer]

a week now that he's 17. That's a different way of thinking of raising a boy.

[Jordan Carlos]

Absolutely. We have to kind of like have a break with our mother and grow up a bit. Paging Dr. Freud. And I feel like little things like that wherein he's, you know, self contained and able to take his clothes downstairs and self reliant. It's really important because if he doesn't, then he's just going to like. What I did was I found somebody just to replace my mom and thank you, therapist. You know, so that we want to avoid that. We really want to avoid that. And Alison Stewart, so wise. Yes. Get your son to separate those colors and whites and just, you know, or just throw it all in, wash it cold.

[Kristin (Caller)]

It'll be fine.

[Jordan Carlos]

It'll be fine. Yeah.

[Caller/Interviewer]

My guest is comedian Jordan Carlos. We're talking about his book Chore play, the marriage saving magic of getting your head out of your ass. It's out now. So Jordan, you wrote this book it's really geared towards men in heterosexual relationships. Why did you want to target that particular audience?

[Jordan Carlos]

We've lost so many good men, Allison. So many good men. I just think that because, you know, you speak from your experience, there were a number of men in like the mom and dad's group in our neighborhood that were splitting up. And they weren't splitting up over anything like dramatic. It was almost like a kind of a what I would call a meh m e h situation. And as such, I think the partnership had kind of broken down. Right. I remember there was this one dad who will remain nameless, who needed the babysitter there even when he was there with the kids. So it's like, what's happening here? You know, come on, bud, you gotta chip in. And that's what I've written it for, is like, there's a lot of well meaning guys who may be open minded in the streets, but not in the sheets, so to speak, and need to pick up the slack. And they really, they're well meaning.

[Nabu (Caller)]

They.

[Jordan Carlos]

There's these guys that I'm describing are often waiting to be told to some to do something. They're happy to go take out the trash, they're happy to walk the dog, they're happy to wash the dishes if being told to do so, rather than having the executive function to just do it themselves. So it's like putting yourself on that footing of more of an active or proactive footing, I think can really help. And to me it doesn't have to be a balance. I don't think it has to be a radical rearrangement. I'm trying to reach those people too, to tell them that if they did something that would be a huge. Some one little thing.

[Alison Stewart]

You note that the second decade of marriage tends to be harder on people.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Why do you think that is?

[Jordan Carlos]

Because I think the first decade, it's like a rocket going into space. You have that wonderful thrust, but those cool 2 boosters fall off and I think. And you have to find a new operating system because you're dealt. You often slip into the sandwich, period, right? Which is you're taking care of your parents at some point or kids come into the picture, maybe they're, you know, you have a miscarriage, but things will, will happen where you'll be put to the, to the test, you know, for better or for worse. And because of that, I think the partnership needs to be looked at, reevalued and rearranged to kind of like meet those, those new conditions.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk To Michael, who's calling in from Westchester. Hey, Michael, thanks for taking the time to call.

[Caller]

All of it.

Yes, thank you so much for having me on. I'm a big fan of the show, so I just wanted to mention something that, you know, frankly, it came to me the other day. One of the things that I haven't been, in the past, particularly good at is anticipating the needs of the household. So it's, yes, picking up the socks off the floor and, you know, wiping the counter, but it's even more than that. It's knowing that my wife's two steps ahead of me. She's planning what the next meal will be. She's figuring out when my kid needs new sneakers. It's all that extra work that she puts into that that I realized I have to up my game a bit.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you for calling in. Thank you for recognizing that. You call that the invisible labor.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes, that's invisible labor, And I'm so happy to mansplain invisible labor here on all of it, but this book is geared towards guys who might not have heard of that before.

[Alison Stewart]

Some people haven't heard of it before.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, don't get ma. It's invisible. Okay? So, yes, that is. Thank you, Michael, for being vulnerable like that and saying that. But, yes, there are so many things that are put on traditionally onto a woman's shoulders. I saw it with my own mother, who was a professor and also ran the household. So I feel like it's just about giving a crap about these things. You have to give a crap. You have to give a G wiz. And the Internet is so great. It's never been a better time to be a slobber. Allison. Like, all this information's online. What your teacher's names are just. Or you can go down the hall. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. To your kids closet, Check the size of their shoes. You know, I mean, the UK One is always bigger or smaller. I don't know. You know, US versus UK sizes on the shoes. But catch up, you know, look around, scout around. It could take, like, 10 minutes to know these things and to find out the names of, like, their doctors. That happened to me with my kid's dentist.

[Alison Stewart]

Like, what happened?

[Jordan Carlos]

Well, I. I called the dentist. Just. I was like, all right, this is. This is my inflection point. So I call up the dentist, and I'm like, I just want to check on when my kids are supposed to get their teeth cleaned again. And. And then the receptionist. This is South Brooklyn. She was like, the mother already knows. And I was like, okay, well, well, I'm the father. And then she's like, clearly you're divorced. I was like, we're not, we're not, we're not divorced. And she's like, only divorced fathers do that. She was also a sock puppet, but she was cool. Anyway, anyway, that, that's, that's what happened, you know, like it's, and you have to realize it's not the shark sometimes it's the water that you're in and that you have to, you have to accommodate for that. You have to know that things are set up for a life of ease, you know, to be, to be a man, a straight man. Things are kind of, they accommodate you. Again, more truth bombs being dropped by this man about, about the misogynist construct in society. But, but I think it takes an awakening and it takes a conversation between men.

[Caller/Interviewer]

On the topic, you know, this is an interesting text. It says you are describing my son in law. As a result, my daughter's home is ultra messy and dirty.

[Alison Stewart]

She doesn't seem to care.

[Caller/Interviewer]

But it sets a very bad example for my two granddaughters.

[Jordan Carlos]

Absolutely. Because my kids know full well that I'm the messy one. They would call me messy all the time. Like daddy's rumple. Daddy's messy. Look at daddy. What a slob, you know, so they felt that they didn't need to clean up after that. Someone would come along, mommy, like a Roomba and like clean it all up. But that's, you can't, you can't be out here doing that because you're, you're, you're setting that, you're modeling that for your kids and it's not good. That's what was modeled for me as well.

[Caller/Interviewer]

We are talking to Jordan Carlos about

[Alison Stewart]

his book Chore Play.

[Caller/Interviewer]

After the break, we'll talk about weaponized incompetence.

[Caller]

Foreign.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Jordan Carlos is a comedian, reformed husband and father and author of Chore Play the marriage saving magic of getting your head out of your ass. Another quick reminder because this is an encore presentation, we won't be taking your calls today. Here's more of my conversation with Jordan. Let's talk to Kristen from Pleasantville. Hi, Kristen, thanks for taking the time to call.

[Caller]

All of it.

[Kristin (Caller)]

Oh, thank you so much for putting me on. So I'm in like an opposite situation. My husband Ashley does everything for the house. He does the laundry. He does, cooks dinner and does the dishes.

[Jordan Carlos]

Keep that man.

[Kristin (Caller)]

Yeah. 25 years celebrating Valentine's day tomorrow. So he's a keeper. But I feel guilty a lot about it. You know, I'm also an artist, and I think maybe my brain just. I can't, like, wrap my head around doing things around the house.

[Jordan Carlos]

Okay.

[Kristin (Caller)]

But he really keeps everything in line. Fridays he does a vacuum and cleanup, surface cleanup.

[Jordan Carlos]

So well trained.

[Kristin (Caller)]

Every Friday. Yeah, he's got it down. And he is like my housewife.

[Alison Stewart]

Is there anything that Kristin can do that would surprise her husband? He does all the work.

[Jordan Carlos]

I think there's plenty you can do, Kristen. So I always say that the devil's in the levels, so you just have to go around. It'll take you five minutes to get around your house. I mean, listen, maybe you have a huge house. I have no idea. East wing in a west wing. But check the TP levels.

[Caller]

Right?

[Jordan Carlos]

Check your toilet paper, paper towel levels, juice levels, milk levels, olive oil and butter. You can just change those rolls in the TP rolls. And he will be. He might faint. You know what I'm saying?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Jordan Carlos]

He might keel over and think that the toilet paper fairy came for a visit, you know, so. So do that, Kristin. I know it sounds so lame, but it's true.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Let's talk to Nabu in the bot in the Bronx. Hey, thanks for calling, all of it.

[Nabu (Caller)]

How are you? Thanks for having me.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Sure.

[Jordan Carlos]

Thank you.

[Nabu (Caller)]

So. So a lot of the icks that you're talking about, my wife used to talk to me about, and I didn't really appreciate it until she passed away in 21. So now in going through the house, having to learn my kids shoe sizes when. When we're running low on milk, when the bathroom has to be cleaned as opposed to wiping down would suffice. All of these little things. Now I don't have anyone who would do it in my absence.

[Caller]

Right.

[Nabu (Caller)]

So now it's like. It's really, really. It boils onto consideration for me. What bothers me may not bother her, but what bothered her didn't bother me. But again, it's only after she was gone that I realized, oh, okay. This is what she meant by it, and this is why. So I think if we, as men, you know, considered. How would you feel if someone ignored you saying the same thing 20 times?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Nabu (Caller)]

Maybe to make you move a little faster.

[Jordan Carlos]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Deb from Park Ridge. Hey, Deb. Thanks for calling, all of it.

[Caller]

Hey, you bet. And I would like the previous woman caller's husband's phone number.

[Jordan Carlos]

Drop it in the chat, Alison.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes, please.

[Caller]

I'll call him up. Anyway, I was calling to just mention two things. Firstly, my husband's a hoarder, but never mind about that. That's on a whole other level. But the truth of the matter is the emotional labor, that's really something. That phrase didn't come to my attention, and I'm ancient, but that phrase came to my attention relatively recently. A lot of what the women end up doing is the emotional labor. Who's crying? Who's being bullied? What are they afraid of? Did they get their period? Like what? You know, all that kind of stuff that supports and develops kids. A lot of times the men step back from that, and I'm not quite sure why that is. If they feel they're not emotionally capable, if they feel like that's just women's work, which it is not. The other thing I wanted to bring up was the way in which, when the man models. Oh, that's Mommy's problem. It does, as you all were saying, reflect. We had a kid who just lived at my house because his parents didn't notice him. So he just never went home. He came home one night, you know, can he sleep over? Sure. Then the next night he came back, and the next day he practically lived here. He did live here. So one day my son, 8 years old, comes downstairs with this kid's laundry, pushes them in my direction and says, have these ready by 11. Okay. Well, now we laugh so hard. To this day, my children are pretty grown up. To this day, when somebody doesn't know his place in the world, that is what we say.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, have this done by 11.

[Jordan Carlos]

Have this done by 11. Do you run a small BNB?

[Jacob (Caller)]

Possibly.

[Jordan Carlos]

That's amazing.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Something else I wanted to ask you about before we go to more calls is this idea of weaponized incompetence.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Explain this to people because it's really important.

[Jordan Carlos]

Weaponized incompetence. I just go back to, like, Mark Twain, wherein in Tom Sawyer, Tom Sawyer gets the kids to whitewash a fence for him by saying they're better at it than he is. So with weaponized incompetence for guys, usually we use the stereotype of being useless around the house as a way of getting out of work. Right. Like, if you've ever seen movies like Mr. Mom. Right. Like, this guy just doesn't understand how to use, like, a popcorn maker, and it just gets out of control, even though he is an engineer by trade. But, like, those kind of myths, we kind of, like, take in wholesale and that way it absolves us of doing any work. And I'm sorry to say the quiet part out loud, but that is what it is and I've been guilty of it.

[Caller/Interviewer]

This is a good question. How can I convince my fiance to read this book without being accused of nagging?

[Jordan Carlos]

Without being accused of nagging. How can I get him to read this book? Just say, you know, first get it on audiobook. Because a lot of guys, what we like to do is like, listen to audiobooks and then tell you that we read a book. We didn't do that. A book, you know, like a story was told to us like we were four years old. So I would get the audiobook available now, where books are sold, and then I would just gift it to him and leave it there. And you can also say a friend of yours, their partner, read it. Cause we get jealous.

[Alison Stewart]

Heard about it on all of it on wnyc.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yeah, that's a way in Charlamagne, The God Charlemagne. The God did the foreword. So if he likes Char, then there you go. I mean, like, sometimes men need, like, it has to be like, man approved.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Jordan Carlos]

Like, for me, I changed my ways a lot because I learned about what a quartermaster was in the army. Because I live. I lived down the road from this guy who was like a colonel one summer and he. And he just told me all about being a quartermaster. And I was like, that's so cool. You're the coolest. You're a colonel. I could do that. I could be a little colonel at my house, you know, and like, that's what this brittle man needed. But, you know, to make it okay.

[Alison Stewart]

It's what you needed. Let's talk to Jacob. Hey, Jacob, thanks for calling, all of it.

[Jacob (Caller)]

Hi there. So both my wife and I work, but she makes pretty much twice what I make. So she's kind of the financial provider. But I do all the other things. I shop for food, food shopping, preparing food, laundry, cleaning, and all of that. Like, it may not be the traditional, like, view of a provider, but I take great comfort in that. And I see myself as a provider and so does she. Like, she's the financial side, but I still provide for our home and it gives me a lot of comfort. And we have a one year old at home, so there's a lot of work to do.

[Caller/Interviewer]

You do have a lot of work

[Jacob (Caller)]

and we need a lot of money.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, thanks for calling, Jacob. Let's go to Joanna in Brooklyn. Hi, Joanna, thanks for taking the time

[Caller/Interviewer]

to call, all of it.

[Caller]

Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm really enjoying this conversation. This is probably adding to what a previous caller called in about on the topic of women's emotional labor. And I think something that probably falls under that umbrella is I think there's a tendency for women to kind of take on the brunt of, like, forming and sustaining social relationships. And I think particularly once kids come into the picture, that can continue. You know, when it comes to maintaining, like, relationships, forming play dates, participating in classroom activities, or, you know, parent group chats, I'm fortunate that my partner is a very equal partner in that respect. But we did at one point have a conversation about the parent group chat, and I was like, I think you think that this is, like, more superficial than it is. It's, like, very important, and it's, like, a lot of time and effort, and he was receptive to that. But again, I really appreciate the conversation and introducing terminology that some people might not be familiar with, because it's very important.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Thank you so much for calling. I want to hear how you stepped up to the plate, how you shook off the old Jordan and introduced the new Jordan into your relationship.

[Jordan Carlos]

Well, it started very simply, really. Like, it started with making coffee in the morning for my wife. Right. So I knew that I could do one little thing that would put a smile on her face or just, like, one thing that. Where I could take a task off her plate, and that was it. She has her morning coffee at 7:15, sits it to the edge of the couch, reads, you know, reads the headlines. That's what she needs to do to start her day. And it's. I was like, okay, if I can do that one small thing, then great. But I'm also a comedian, and in comedy, we have two strategies. Yes. And. And if this, then what else? So I looked around, and that's when I was like, okay. She's always telling me to get milk. She's always telling me to get, you know, juice, whatever it is that we need. What if I just, like, you know, short circuit that and start looking for those things or the bulbs are out? Like, start looking around. So just small things that weren't heavy lifts. Because I cannot do radical change, but I can do incremental change until it's like, wow, what a tectonic shift. Right? Like, that was huge. So that's what I did. And then I started, and then someone handed me a book. My friend Phoebe Robinson handed me a book. We love Phoebe. It's called the 5am Club. And it was about waking up early. So before that prior to that, I'd wake up at whenever mom told me to. And so then I was like, let me set my own stance. So then I started waking up at 5, and I had so much more time to come online and to tackle the day, really. To tackle the day. And that that made for a major, major shift. But I had to show myself that I could do these small things before I could even start waking up earlier, you know.

[Caller/Interviewer]

Let's take one more call. Jennifer from Fairfield, Connecticut. Hi, Jennifer. You're our last call.

[Jennifer (Caller)]

Oh, hi. Thanks for taking my call.

[Caller]

Well, this has been a great show.

[Jennifer (Caller)]

I gotta get my husband to give a listen. He's an artist, and I'm an artist's wife, which is a job in itself.

[Jordan Carlos]

Thank you for your service.

[Jennifer (Caller)]

Yeah, I know they do. Their brains are wired completely different. And so we were together for 13 years, and I became pregnant, and I had done all the cooking in the household and everything up to that point. And I finally just said when I got pregnant, was like, you know what? I'm not hungry. I don't care about food. Food makes me sick. I'm out. I'm not doing it anymore. And so he said, oh, okay, fine. You know, before that, he hadn't really shown any interest in making food, but he started doing the food shopping and doing the cooking, and he turned out to be an amazing cook.

[Jordan Carlos]

Yes.

[Jennifer (Caller)]

So that really worked out beautifully because from that time on, we share that sort of duties. But it took me a while to just ask, you know, to let him know, I'm not doing it.

[Jordan Carlos]

There you go, girl. I'm not doing it. I'm out. I love it.

[Alison Stewart]

When did your wife realize that you

[Caller/Interviewer]

had made a change?

[Jordan Carlos]

I think she realized that I'd made this significant change when my son. We were at the dinner table and I think he'd spilled some juice. And then we needed a paper towel. Paper towels were out. And my wife was like, we're all out of paper towels. And my son said, no, we have plenty. They're all downstairs. Daddy got the paper towels. Daddy always gets all the stuff, right? So that really. That was like. It made me know that I had a role. Right. If my son is saying, and he's like 5 years old, that's when. I mean, it clicked. It clicked for her, clicked for everybody. Like, that's what this guy's gonna do. He's gonna overstuff this house with Costco products, and that's gonna be his role. And it's actually worked out really great because of instacart this is not a plug for Instacart. But again, technology has helped the slob and I found a little way to function in a Rube Goldberg machine kind of way in my home.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, that was comedian Jordan Carlos, author of the book the Marriage saving Magic of getting your head out of your ass.

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[Jordan Carlos]

I remember telling my boss it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it it wasn't.

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[Jacob (Caller)]

Oh no.

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