Journalist Barbara Demick Follows A Case Of Twin Separation in 'Daughters of the Bamboo Grove'

Summary

Podcast Summary: "All Of It" with Barbara Demick – "Daughters of the Bamboo Grove"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Episode: Journalist Barbara Demick Follows A Case Of Twin Separation in 'Daughters of the Bamboo Grove'
• Release Date: August 7, 2025
• Description: ALL OF IT is a show about culture and its consumers, aiming to engage thinkers, doers, makers, and creators in discussions about the cultural landscape, particularly within New York City.

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Introduction

[00:07] Alison Stewart:
Alison Stewart opens the episode by outlining the day's topics, including discussions with solo show performers and introducing the main story about international adoption from China. She introduces Barbara Demick, the author of "Daughters of the Bamboo Grove: From China to America, A True Story of Abduction, Adoption and Separated Twins," who joins the studio to delve into the complexities of Chinese international adoption under the one-child policy.

Background on International Adoption and the One-Child Policy

[02:32] Barbara Demick:
Barbara Demick provides context on the origins of China's one-child policy, tracing it back to concerns from the 1960s about overpopulation cited in works like "The Population Bomb." She explains that China became a perfect environment for enforcing this policy due to its totalitarian regime and lack of religious opposition to birth control.

[03:15] Barbara Demick:
She describes the stringent enforcement measures, including severe punishments for non-compliance, such as property confiscation and forcible removal of children. This led to the abduction of many girls, influenced by a cultural preference for sons.

The Zhang Family and the Impact of the One-Child Policy

[04:40] Barbara Demick:
Demick discusses the pervasive reach of the Chinese government, even in remote villages. She highlights how family planning officials infiltrated these areas to enforce the policy, often targeting already vulnerable and impoverished families.

[05:35] Barbara Demick:
The focus shifts to the Zhang family, characterized by their loyalty and patriotism towards the Chinese Communist Party. Despite their respect for the one-child policy, economic and cultural pressures, particularly from the paternal grandfather, compelled them to seek a son.

The Story of Esther and Twin Separation

[07:06] Alison Stewart:
Stewart introduces the emotional core of the episode—the story of Esther, originally named Fang Fang, and her twin sister who were separated due to the policy.

[07:08] Barbara Demick:
Demick narrates how Esther's mother, desperate for a son, hid in a bamboo grove to give birth secretly. Upon the birth of twins, family planning officials intervened, taking one of the daughters despite the parents' desire to keep both.

[09:02] Alison Stewart:
Stewart inquires about Demick's personal journey in uncovering the Zhang family's story, highlighting the challenges posed by censorship and the emotional toll of such revelations.

[09:03] Barbara Demick:
Demick shares her investigative process, including interviewing the mother and their surviving daughter in a remote village. She recounts the moment when the mother expressed a heartfelt desire for the return of her abducted daughter.

Navigating the Adoption Process and Its Lucrative Nature

[12:07] Barbara Demick:
Demick addresses the economic aspects of international adoption, explaining that adoptive parents often paid significant fees that were funneled through Beijing and US adoption agencies. While some funds supported orphanages, others were siphoned off due to the low government funding for these institutions.

[13:47] Barbara Demick:
She clarifies that once a child was taken, the biological parents had little to no ability to regain custody, as they were typically impoverished and lacked the resources to contest the abduction.

Cultural Preferences and Changing Dynamics in China

[15:09] Barbara Demick:
Demick delves into the deep-rooted cultural preference for male children in China, rooted in traditions where sons are expected to care for parents in old age. However, she notes a significant shift starting around the year 2000, as economic development and changing societal roles for women led to a reduced emphasis on male offspring.

[16:29] Barbara Demick:
She critiques the narratives presented to adoptive parents in the US, where children were often portrayed as abandoned to elicit empathy and facilitate adoption. Demick emphasizes the psychological impact this has had on adoptees, many of whom grapple with issues of abandonment and identity.

Personal Stories and Emotional Repercussions

[17:34] Barbara Demick:
Demick recounts Esther's adoptive mother's altruistic motivations, driven by a desire to aid abandoned children. However, Esther faced challenges adjusting to her new environment, leading to feelings of having "another family."

[19:08] Barbara Demick:
She contrasts Esther's middle-class upbringing in America with her biological family's rural poverty, highlighting the divergent experiences and struggles faced by each side.

[21:00] Barbara Demick:
Demick reflects on her role as a journalist and the unintended consequences of her reporting, acknowledging the trauma it may have caused the families involved.

Reconnecting Separated Twins

[20:22] Alison Stewart:
The conversation shifts to the emotional dilemma faced by adoptees when considering reconnecting with their birth families. Demick discusses the mixed emotions and varied desires among adoptees regarding such reunions.

[23:15] Barbara Demick:
She references a New Yorker piece she wrote, noting that while some adoptees seek out their biological families through DNA testing, others choose not to, underscoring that the decision must ultimately rest with the individual.

Policy Changes and Future Implications

[23:39] Barbara Demick:
Demick explains the phasing out of the one-child policy in 2015, driven by demographic crises such as a shrinking workforce and an imbalance in the population of bachelors. The Chinese government now incentivizes larger families, a stark contrast to previous enforcement methods.

Conclusion

[24:45] Alison Stewart:
Alison Stewart wraps up the episode by reiterating the title and author of the book discussed, emphasizing the profound personal and cultural narratives surrounding international adoption from China.

[24:57] Barbara Demick:
Barbara Demick expresses gratitude for being part of the show.

[24:58] Alison Stewart:
Stewart concludes with a promotional segment about WNYC’s offerings, encouraging sponsorship and listener engagement.

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Key Takeaways:

• Cultural and Policy Forces: The one-child policy in China, enforced with severe measures, led to the abduction of many girls, driven by cultural preferences for male children and economic pressures.

• Emotional and Psychological Impact: Separation of twins and the subsequent adoption process have long-lasting psychological effects on both adoptees and their biological families.

• Economic Dimensions: The international adoption process was financially lucrative, with significant funds passing through agencies, though often insufficiently supporting orphanages.

• Changing Chinese Society: Shifts in economic conditions and societal roles have altered attitudes toward gender preference, contributing to changes in adoption practices and policies.

• Personal Narratives: Barbara Demick’s investigative journey illustrates the complex interplay between journalism, personal involvement, and the ethical considerations in telling such stories.

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Notable Quotes:

• Barbara Demick on the One-Child Policy Origins:
  "[...] China was the perfect laboratory because they were in a rush to get rich fast. And, you know, there was no religious precepts against abortion or birth control."
  [03:15]

• Barbara Demick on Familial Pressures:
  "[...] They had two daughters when they very early in their pregnancy, they had already been punished for having the second daughter."
  [06:15]

• Barbara Demick on Adoption Narratives:
  "It was a very destructive narrative for the adoptees, many of whom, you know, still have, you know, deep psychological issues about abandonment."
  [16:29]

• Barbara Demick on Adoptee Choices:
  "It's up to the child. Yeah, definitely up to the child. They have to decide. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer."
  [22:51]

• Barbara Demick on Policy Change:
  "[...] the Chinese government is just made this 180 degree turn where they're offering incentives for people to have more babies."
  [23:39]

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Conclusion

This episode of "All Of It" provides an in-depth exploration of the complex and emotionally charged issue of international adoption from China during the one-child policy era. Through Barbara Demick's investigative work and personal narratives, listeners gain a multifaceted understanding of the cultural, economic, and psychological dimensions of adoption and family separation. The discussion highlights the enduring impact of governmental policies on individual lives and the evolving nature of societal values in modern China.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studio in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. What day is it? It's August 7th, not July 31st, which you heard our Billboard. So let's tell you what's going to be on the show today. We're going to talk to two solo show performers at the Soho Playhouse. They both have shows running. Now. Bill Posley discusses the Day I Accidentally Went to War. He'll reflect on his experience enlisting in the military, being deployed and coming home. And then Morgan Basquias. His play is called Can I Be Frank? It interprets the life and work of gay comedian Frank Maya. And then later this hour, we'll have some fall Travel tips from NerdWallet's podcast host Sally French, and she'll take your calls. That's the plan. By the way, I have an AC head cold, so I'll do my best. But let's get started with the story of international adoption. In 1992, China officially opened its doors to international adoptions. Many of those adopted children ended up right here in New York City. The New York Times Magazine even ran a cover story about it. In 1993, American parents were told that these babies were unwanted girls, a result of China's one child policy. Often Chinese families might abandon their daughters in favor of trying for a son. One of those adopted American parents was told that her daughter Esther, once called Fang Fang, was one of these discarded girls. Journalist Barbara Demick soon uncovered that Esther was abducted from her family. Esther was taken as a toddler by the Chinese State Family Planning Commission, brought to an orphanage and event adopted. Her parents, two older siblings and a twin sister remained in China. Barbara's reporting reveals that Esther is far from the only adopted child who was forcibly removed from her birth family. Barbara Demick tells the story of Esther, her birth family and the underside of adoption from China in her new book. It is titled Daughters of the Bamboo Grove From China to America, A True Story of Abduction, Adoption and Separated Twins. It is out now and Barbara Demick joins me in studio. It is really nice to meet meet you.

[Barbara Demick]

Thanks so much. I'm really happy to be here. One of my favorite shows.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you listeners. We want to hear from you. Have you adopted a child from China? What were you told about their background? Or maybe you were someone who was adopted from China? What do you want people to know about your birth family? If anything, what did you know about your birth family? We are discussing Chinese adoptions in America and the One child Policy. Our Phone number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. I want to back up and I want to explain this for everybody what the one child policy is. Why did the government in China decide that a one child policy would be a good strategy for the country?

[Barbara Demick]

Well, this was an idea that started in the 60s. You remember, there was a book, maybe you're too young, called the Population Bomb. And it was millions of people are going to starve to death. And as a friend of mine who's written about this has, this was like bell bottoms and sideburns. This was a craze. Too many, too many, too many people. And various governments, like in India, they had tried to do, you know, limit births and forcible vasectomies, but China was the perfect laboratory because they were in a rush to get rich fast. And, you know, there was no religious precepts against abortion or birth control. And it was a totalitarian regime. So they had this very, very strict policy. People who didn't follow the rules could have their houses torn down, their property taken away, their animals confiscated. And then they started confiscating babies. And this was, you know, because of international adoption, which was very lucrative.

[Alison Stewart]

The family that you follow is deep in the countryside where you might not think the government would be as strong or would reach as far. But that wasn't true when it came to the one child policy. Why not?

[Barbara Demick]

Well, you know, the government was everywhere. There were Chinese Communist Party monitors in every village. And the people in the countryside, they were the powerless, without voices, without any political clout, you know, not that you would have political clout in a country like this. And they were vulnerable. And these family planning officials would, you know, sneak into, you know, very, very remote villages and they would look for baby clothes on clotheslines or they would talk to nosy neighbors. And the villages where these children were taken were all very remote. You know, one of them, we had to hike up a goat path, the one where the twins came from. We had to, you know, walk along a little log bridge and there's a picture of it in the book, you know, but it was. They were very remote and very vulnerable.

[Alison Stewart]

What are the family, the Zhang family that you write about? What do they think of the one child policy?

[Barbara Demick]

Well, this is a funny thing. They're very loyal, patriotic Chinese. You know, they really love the Chinese Communist Party. They feel like it lifted them out of poverty. And so they respected the one child policy. They believed in the policy. They Just that didn't mean that they were actually going to follow the policy. And I think, you know, it's like us, you know, I believe in taxes. I'm not really happy about paying them. I do. And they had had, you know, the typical young rural couple, they had had two daughters when they very early in their pregnancy, they had already been punished for having the second daughter. And the paternal grandfather was really pushing them to try for a son. This is the son, carries on the family name and conducts rituals at the cemetery, blah, blah, blah. So they pushed them and pushed them and pushed them. And the mom, young mom at the time, hid out actually in a bamboo grove. That's where this comes from. To give birth secretly so nobody would see she was pregnant. People could be, you know, pregnant women were often picked up and forcibly aborted, you know, up to eight, nine months. You know, very brutal, unsanitary conditions. So she went to have her long awaited son and boom, two more daughters.

[Alison Stewart]

Twins.

[Barbara Demick]

Twins, yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

They said she wasn't looking like she felt so well, they were like, something's wrong with this pregnancy and it turns out to be twins.

[Barbara Demick]

Yeah, yeah. She gave birth to one and then she's like something is still moving inside. So they were, and you would have thought they'd be horrified. But the father, who's really kind of an unusual rural Chinese man, loved girls.

[Alison Stewart]

He could have been a stay at home dad.

[Barbara Demick]

That's right. If he lived in Scandinavia, he probably would have been, I'll stay at home and take care of just. He loved girls. He was, is very gentle, soft spoken, doesn't smoke. And they really wanted to keep the girls. And he was actually kind of pleased. It was a little bit of a comeuppance to his patriarchal father. And they tried to hide the girls in this kind of awkward ruse. They left one with an aunt and uncle. And that's when these family planning officials actually came in, immobilized the aunt. There were like 10 people who broke into the house and they took the baby.

[Alison Stewart]

How did you first get involved with the Zeng family?

[Barbara Demick]

I was a reporter in China from 2007 to 2014, which was actually a relatively open period for journalists. And I was like traipsing through rural China writing this story. And I'm not an adoptive parent myself, but I had a lot of friends who adopted. Usually women like myself who were professionals didn't get pregnant when they were early in life. They were building their careers. So I was very interested in this. And I had heard these rumors that babies were Being snatched. And you know, I went and I interviewed. I had heard from various Chinese journalists about this village. Chinese journalists were way ahead of me, but they weren't able to report.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, interesting.

[Barbara Demick]

Because of censorship. And then I found, you know, I heard about this family. I crossed the Little River Bridge and I interviewed the mom and the remaining nine year old girl and they told me the whole story about how they had twins and one was taken and the little nine year old girl who was adorable, said, I miss my twin sister, I want to play with her, blah, blah, blah, blah. I made a video and you know, when I was leaving, the mom said, thanks for visiting, come back and bring our daughter.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, anyway, what did that do to you emotionally when she said that to you? I mean, I know you're there as a journalist, but when someone says that.

[Barbara Demick]

To you, I was like, you know, I didn't think that was possible. I was like, okay, yeah, thanks, I'll try, you know. But anyway, I got back to my office in Beijing and I mean, I have to like admit something here. I was like kind of procrastinating, like just messing around on the computer. And things were much more open on social media at that time. This was 2009. And I found these different forums on Yahoo actually for parents who had adopted and they always posted pictures of their kids, you know, dancing the nutcracker, riding ponies, building, you know, enjoying American life. They were very proud of these ridiculously adorable kids. And one family I found had, you know, seemed to have adopted around the same time, the same area. This girl was taken when she was almost 2, so she was older than other adoptees and I knew what she looked like because I had met her identical twin sister. And it's complicated what happened next, but I started trying to find the family and they completely freaked out. They cut me off through an intermediary, said, you know, we can't deal with this. They were evangelical Christians in Texas. They had in fact started a little NGO because, you know, there was a big movement among evangelicals. Adopt the world, you know, save the babies. And you know, that was, that was it. I really couldn't write anything. I couldn't out a nine year old as being a stolen child. And I, you know, I sent what I had to the family in Texas. I contacted the family in and said, look, your daughter is safe, she's been adopted. And I just don't think you can contact her now. And they were actually understanding, they were happy she was alive. And then that was it till 2017. Should I just keep going.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, you know, let's stop there because I do have a couple of questions for you. This actually came through via text. Can you explain why these adoption schemes were so lucrative? Who pocketed the money?

[Barbara Demick]

Okay, this is actually a very important question. Thank you, listener. Most of the adoption fees went through Beijing and adoption agencies in the US And I have not found any corruption there. But there was a rule that adoptive parents had to donate to the orphanage that fostered the child. $3,000 cash, hundred dollar bills, clean $100 bills, and they had to carry it with them to China. Parents picked up their kids in China and this was a fortune in rural China. And these orphanages were government run. They were part of larger social welfare institutes. And I've got to say something that maybe exonerates some of the Chinese here. But these orphanages were not very well funded by the government. And this $3,000 was, you know, sometimes it went to people's pockets, but sometimes it was just running the orphanage.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. My guest is author and journalist Barbara Demick. We're discussing her new book, Daughters of the Bamboo Grove from China to A True Story of Abduction, Adoption and Separated Twins. Listeners, we'd like to hear your story. Have you adopted a child from China? What were you told about their background? Or maybe you or someone you know was adopted from China? We'd like to hear your story as well. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Once a child is abducted, do the parents have any recourse on getting the child back?

[Barbara Demick]

No, no. I mean, these people are, you know, not connected. They have no money. They're usually are often illiterate or semi literate. You know, often family planning officials, family planning as a euphemism for the enforcement agency would, you know, ask for money. But they were ridiculous sums that the family couldn't afford. These were very poor people.

[Alison Stewart]

So family planning, I mean, they couldn't take the child, but they could take the child.

[Barbara Demick]

This was, it was like it wasn't legal. It wasn't legal, but it was like a don't ask, don't tell. They needed the money. And you know, how it was split between the family planning in the orphanage, I don't know. They had to place ads in newspapers saying we found a baby so and so. But most of that information was, you know, fabricated. And you know, these people were, you know, rural villagers. They didn't read these newspapers. Some of them were like legal newspapers and they generally moved them on about six months later.

[Alison Stewart]

Later I want to ask about the preference for boys. What are some of the cultural and economic explanations for why Chinese family might place such emphasis on having a boy?

[Barbara Demick]

I think the main one has to do with retirement. The tradition is that the boys take care of the parents in their old age and that the girls marry out. It's a common, it had been a very common cultural thing. So the girl goes to another village, marries and takes care of her in laws. So they were like spilled water. But something that's really very important to say here, this was changing. And since there's adoptive parents, no doubt listening and adoptees. During the 80s and 90s there really were a lot of abandoned babies. But by about 2000, there's not an exact cutoff. Chinese were getting a lot richer and the attitudes towards girls were changing. The girls were starting to work in the factories in southern China. They were making money, they were sending the money back to their parents and people didn't want to give up their daughters. And there was just such a change in China over that decade and that's when these babies got abducted. You know, the earlier adoptions I think really were abandoned.

[Alison Stewart]

What messages were American adoptive parents given about the children?

[Barbara Demick]

Well, it was a very, you know, convenient lie is, you know, you're rescuing a baby from the trash keep of China. And it was very comforting to the adoptive parents. I think it was a very destructive narrative for the adoptees, many of whom, you know, still have, you know, deep psychological issues about abandonment and something else. Sorry, I'm talking like a broken record here. I'm saying abandonment, but it's really relinquishment because you know, some kids were taken violently like this twin, but some were given up under great duress and there was just a continuum of duress. And I think very few of those girls would have been relinquished if not for the one child policy.

[Alison Stewart]

Esther's adopted mom is from Texas. What did she tell you about why she decided to adopt and why she decided to adopt from China?

[Barbara Demick]

She was Esther's mother, who was a wonderful person as I've come to know, wanted to be a missionary as a child. She was very motivated by humanitarian concerns. And she was older, she already had an adult son. Her husband had adult children from a previous marriage. And you know, she heard a program about babies being thrown out. One in particular about a girl who was thrown down a well because her family wanted a boy. And she's soft hearted and so she decided, you know, to save the babies was altruistic. It was altruistic, and she. It was an extension of her desire to be a missionary. And so she adopted two girls from China, one a little bit older, and then Fang Fang, who became Esther, and.

[Alison Stewart]

Esther had a little bit of a harder time sort of melding into the family a little bit.

[Barbara Demick]

That's right. Because she was almost two when she was taken. She was two and a half when she was adopted, and she could already, you know, speak very coherently and walk, and, you know, she was a very precocious kid. And Marcia's husband, who has unfortunately since passed away, said, you know, it almost seems like she had another family.

[Alison Stewart]

It's interesting because Esther's Chinese family, as you described, they grew up in rural poverty. They're doing better now. But she grew up middle class in America.

[Barbara Demick]

Struggling middle class.

[Alison Stewart]

Struggling middle class.

[Barbara Demick]

They were. I think this is a very typical American story of people who were falling out of the middle class. Her husband got cancer. He had to leave his job. She was taking care of young kids. She retired early. It was just typical. Not quite enough health insurance, not quite enough pension.

[Alison Stewart]

Interesting. Gosh, that's interesting. I think about that for a minute. But as you said, when she turned 17, things changed. They were able to. You were able. Not. You were able to. She was able to meet with her twin.

[Barbara Demick]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

That must have been incredibly hard decision for her to make.

[Barbara Demick]

It was. And, you know, at first, she found out about this whole thing when she was nine years old, and she was horrified. Like, you know, I have to go back to China. But as she became a teenager, teenager, you know, she saw that she looked different from other people. She grew up in a very, very white community in rural Texas, and she started following Chinese fashion bloggers. And at that point, that's when somebody in her family contacted me and said, can you help?

[Alison Stewart]

How did you feel about being contacted? Can you help?

[Barbara Demick]

It was really out of the blue. This was 2017. It was right after Trump's inauguration. We were, you know, it was full of PR protests in New York and at the airports. It was kind of a crazy time, but I was like, wow, I never forgot this story. I didn't think I'd write about it, but, you know, of course I couldn't not help. And as I got sucked into it, I shouldn't say sucked into it, because I put myself into it. You know, I realized how much trauma I had caused the family, in a way, and I felt obliged to help.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you feel like you caused the trauma?

[Barbara Demick]

I did.

[Alison Stewart]

Why?

[Barbara Demick]

I felt like I was writing these stories as a journalist and that I had not thought enough about the psychological implications. I mean, I was trying to help the Chinese family, but I was also trying to see if I could. I wasn't even trying to write a story at that point. I was just trying to see if I could find her. I like to fool around on the Internet, and, I don't know, I just got more and more involved. I found she. I started sending letters between them. Then it was like text messages. I set up a video chat and, you know, finally we all went to China together.

[Alison Stewart]

How are you feeling about it now in 2025?

[Barbara Demick]

I mean, I feel very good about it. It's not a fairy tale. I think people want to look at this as, oh, separated, transunited. It's a fairy tale. There's tensions there and issues. We had really hoped that Shuang Jia could come to the US the following year. And then that was Covid 2020, and we've talked about it, but it's very difficult for a Chinese person that age to get a visa to the US because of the political situation. She doesn't have a passport. And, I mean, the twins have found it hard to keep up the intimacy because they don't speak the same language. You know, they're texting. And for all the wonders of technology and the AI interpreters, it's difficult.

[Alison Stewart]

That's interesting. What would you say to someone who has the ability to introduce an adopted child to their original family, to original family members, knowing what you know now?

[Barbara Demick]

I've been asked this a lot. I mean, the main thing I would say is it's up to the child. Yeah, definitely up to the child. They have to decide. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer, but I just wrote a piece about this for the New Yorker that ran a few months ago. There's a lot of adoptees, and a lot of Chinese families are finding each other through DNA testing.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, gosh, yes.

[Barbara Demick]

And, you know, some adoptees are looking and desperate to find their birth parents, and others are just like, you know, forget it. I'm happy with who I am, and I can't say who's right and who's wrong, but it's really up to them.

[Alison Stewart]

We should point out, though, that the one child policy has been phased out in China. Why was that?

[Barbara Demick]

Well, they were simply, you know, they were running out of people. And what was surprising about this was not so much that they executed the policy, but that it dragged on till 2015 when demographers were warning. This is a disaster. You have all these bachelors who can't find wives. You don't have the low cost factory workers who were responsible for the Chinese economic miracle. And so now China's population is shrinking. India is now the world's most populous country and China is expected to lose half their population by the end of the century. And it's really shrinking. And the Chinese government is just made this 180 degree turn where they're offering incentives for people to have more babies. And the same people who would beat pregnant women and drag them for forced abortions are now, you know, offering them rice cookers and water bottles and sometimes money to have more babies.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the book is Daughters of the Bamboo Grove From China to A True Story of Abduction, Adoption and Separated Twins. It's by Barbara Demick. Barbara, thank you for joining us. In studio.

[Barbara Demick]

Thanks so much.

[Alison Stewart]

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