'Law & Order' Composer's First Album in 30 Years (Listening Party)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Law & Order Composer's First Album in 30 Years (Listening Party)”

Podcast: All Of It
Host: Kusha Navadar (for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Mike Post, Grammy Award-winning composer, producer, and creator of the “Law & Order” theme
Date: April 4, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode of All Of It celebrates the release of Mike Post’s first solo album in three decades, Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta. The discussion covers Post’s storied career as a composer (including his iconic work for "Law & Order"), the American music themes behind his new orchestral album, and the role of cultural synthesis in his artistry. Listeners are treated to a “listening party” introducing samples from the album and new perspectives on bluegrass, blues, and what it means to make music that embodies America’s spirit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Album, Why Now?

• A Pandemic Byproduct:
  Mike Post explains that COVID downtime provided space for creative reflection, leading to new standalone compositions for the first time in 30 years (03:16).

  “My shows were put on hold, as everybody else’s were, and so I had nothing to do except sit around and think … I realized it had been a very long time since I had done any standalone music that wasn’t connected to a TV show.” (Mike Post, 03:16)

• Fusion of Bluegrass and Orchestral Music:
  • Post wanted to see if an orchestral suite could be paired with a bluegrass rhythm section—a unique combination driven by his dual background in bluegrass and classical orchestration.

2. Mike Post’s Bluegrass Roots

• Learned piano as a child, but guitar and American folk music captured his impetus.
• Cut his teeth as a studio guitarist, notably with The Wrecking Crew in Los Angeles, playing on major records in the ’60s–’80s.

  “As soon as I picked up a guitar, I was a folky right away and I finger picked ... I was, you know, transported by Flatt and Scruggs like all the rest of my generation.” (Mike Post, 04:44)

3. Bluegrass & Blues: The American Story

• Post draws parallels between bluegrass (the story of immigration) and blues (the story of struggle), celebrating America’s cultural melting pot.

  “It’s a story of immigration on the bluegrass side of it and struggle on the blues side of it … All of our ... parents coming from every part of the globe ... and using this country ... they brought their music with them.” (Mike Post, 06:03)

• References Dvorak’s “New World Symphony” and Aaron Copland as inspirations for engaging with “American” music.

4. Showcasing the Music: Album Listening Party

• Excerpts from both themed suites are played:
  • Message from the Mountains (bluegrass-inspired): “Onward” (01:50) and “Sunrise Special” (08:38)
  • Echoes of the Delta (blues-inspired): “John the Revelator” (12:49), featuring Amy Keys on vocals

5. The Art of Conducting & Arranging

• Post discusses learning conducting “backwards”: starting with popular music, then doubling back to formal musical literacy.
• Credits the mentorship of orchestra librarian Ted Dale for shaping his conducting skills:

  “I’ve never seen anybody that knew so little accomplish so much.” (Ted Dale, quoted by Mike Post, 10:41)
  “[Ted Dale] said, you know, you need some lessons, and I’m the guy to teach you … He hung in there with me.” (Mike Post, 11:11)

6. The Meaning of the Blues & Collaboration

• Echoes of the Delta honors the pain and resilience stemming from the Black American experience:

  “The entire piece speaks to the horror of slavery. It speaks to the joy and triumph of overcoming that—not that we’ve overcome it even 50% because the ripples from that boulder in our pond ... keep resonating.” (Mike Post, 13:52)

• Emphasis on respectful collaboration:

  “The second thing I wanted was the guys that … played on and sang on it, I wanted them to like it.” (Mike Post, 16:04)

7. Stories Behind the “Law & Order” Theme

• Post recounts Dick Wolf’s challenge: create a theme that “signs the signature of New York City” after Gershwin (17:18).

  “Dick, I hate to tell you this, but that’s already been done. There was a guy named George Gershwin ... called Rhapsody. And Blut signs the signature in New York City ... ‘Well, yeah, just do that.’” (Mike Post, 17:18)

• The theme was the result of experimentation with a new Stratocaster and a desire to evoke "New York toughness."
• Use of clarinet as a deliberate nod to Gershwin.

8. Hopes for the Album’s Impact

• Post wants listeners to feel something—entertained, inspired, but above all, moved by the musical “difference.”

  “The quote is, if you’re not doing something different, you’re not doing hardly anything at all … So I’m trying to do something different, you know.” (Mike Post, 19:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music as American Storytelling:

  “I want to celebrate some of the stuff that we got right, especially the music.” (Mike Post, 07:42)

• On Conducting:

  “I’m the first generation of people raised on the radio, raised on television ... a rock and roller that learned how to read, write, orchestrate and conduct. That’s sort of backwards.” (Mike Post, 10:41)

• On The Blues:

  “I don’t know how the blues does what it does … it’s magic. It’s just magic.” (Mike Post, 13:52)

• On Audience Takeaway:

  “I want them to feel something ... if you’re not doing something different, you’re not doing hardly anything at all.” (Mike Post, 19:57)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:05 — Mike Post on creating standalone music during the pandemic
• 04:44 — Bluegrass roots and early session work
• 06:03 — Bluegrass and blues: the American experience
• 10:41 — The accidental conductor
• 12:49 — “John the Revelator” excerpt and blues origins
• 13:52 — On the depth and pain behind the blues
• 16:04 — The collaborative process and intent
• 17:18 — The making of the iconic “Law & Order” theme
• 19:57 — Hopes for what listeners feel after hearing the album

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Conclusion

The episode is a compelling reflection on American music and culture, as seen through the eyes of a legendary composer. Mike Post’s journey—from Wrecking Crew guitarist to orchestral innovator and TV icon—anchors a wide-ranging conversation about heritage, collaboration, and the ambition to do something “different.” The listening party format offers a rich introduction to the sounds of Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta, making it essential listening for anyone interested in the roots—and future—of American music.

Transcript

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[Mike Post]

All right unc.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

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[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Kusha Navadar. Today the MTA announced that starting tomorrow, law and order S U SVU themed metro cards will be available at certain subway stations in celebration of the show's 25th season. And hey, if you've turned on a TV sometime over the past, I don't know, 30 or so years, chances are you've heard a variation of this theme song that is of course the theme of Law and SVU from the man who also created the original theme song of Law and the hit police procedural that's been on the air since 1990. Mike Post is the composer of this iconic song and for the first time in 30 years, post is releasing a new album. It's called Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta. The album is made up of two orchestral suites that Post conducted inspired by his love of bluegrass and the blues. Here's a sample. This is the second movement of Message from the Mountains called Onward. Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta is out tomorrow and with us now is musician and composer Mike Post. Hi Mike, welcome to the show.

[Mike Post]

Thank you so much and thanks for having me.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

And hey, congratulations on your new album. It's been 30 years since your last solo Album. Why did now feel like the right time to put this out?

[Mike Post]

You know, it was a byproduct of COVID A few years ago. My shows were put on. On hold, as everybody else was, and so I had nothing to do except sit around and think. And I realized it had been a very long time since I had done any standalone music that wasn't connected to a TV show or producing an album for somebody. So I, I'm thinking, you know, gee whiz, I wonder if anybody's done an orchestral piece with the five piece bluegrass rhythm section. And I know I don't think anybody has. Well, I'm. I probably am the right guy to do it because I have a legit, you know, background in bluegrass and in blues and I, you know, and I'm not afraid of the orchestra. I'm pretty well versed in, you know, in, in that world as well. So I sat down and started sketching some little pieces, little, you know, parts. And I thought, you know, if this is viable, if this works for a bluegrass rhythm section and a. In an orchestra, it'll certainly work for a blues band and a, and. And an orchestra. So that's how, that's why there's two pieces.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

You mentioned you were the right person for the job because of your background in bluegrass. I'm not familiar with that. How. What did you grow up playing bluegrass? What's, what's your background there?

[Mike Post]

Yeah, originally I was a, you know, like most kids, you know, piano at five or six and blah blah, blah, you know, but as soon as I picked up a guitar, you know, I, I was a folky right away and I finger picked and I, you know, so I was, you know, transported by flattened scrubs like all the rest of my generation. And, and, and then I just sort of dove into that end of the pool and, and, and, and loved that music. We really felt close to it. And then, you know, early on I made it as a studio guitar player, but sort of specializing in, you know, and finger picking and electric 12 string and so on and so forth. I played on all the Sonny and Cher records and, but, you know, and, and, and was part of a thing called the Wrecking Crew here in LA that was, you know, sort of the, the studio guys that were on a lot of hit records in the late 60s, 70s, 80s.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

And so you have this background in bluegrass. You're very familiar with the blues. You're in quarantine back in 20, spring of 2020, thinking, where can I take these two together? What do you think these Two kinds of music, bluegrass and blues, have in common.

[Mike Post]

America. You know, it's. This is a story of. Of immigration on the bluegrass side of it and struggle on the blue side of it. And it's nothing new. You know, I'm not the first guy to snap to this. You know, back in the late 1800s, Dvorak came here and. And, you know, became the. The guy at the New York Phil. And his first vacation was through the western and southern United States after he worked for about eight months and he just went crazy and said, man, listen to this, you know, and that. What. What became of that was the New World Symphony. And so then, you know, we all sort of followed along behind that, you know, and I followed along behind Copeland and every. And Randy Newman and everybody else had got caught up in this idea of this music that. That's so American, you know, and so. So just grasp with the idea of, you know, your parents and my grandparents and everybody else's parents coming from every part of the globe and. And using this country and what it, you know, would it afforded all of our. Of our, you know, the people that we come from, you know, they came here running from something or running to something, and they brought their music with them. And, you know, I'm, you know, it's not lost on me how giant the problems are in this country and how much we need to retool a whole bunch of stuff here. However, when you look around, I'd rather be here than in downtown Beirut right now. You know, I'd rather be here trying to make the United States better and America better, which, you know, public radio is devoted to. It, you know, it's why I listen to you guys. It's why, you know, I listen to LA's public radio and. And, but. But having said that, and having certainly, you know, spend a lot of time thinking about how. How we need to be better and what we need to change. I also, at this point in my life, want to celebrate some of the stuff that we got right, especially the music.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

I hear these terms like, what. What is bluegrass? What is blues? It is America. It is immigration. It is celebration. I feel like it is time to hear a clip from this that you've made. Let's go to suite the. The bluegrass one, which you call Message from the Mountains. Right from the first track we hear a voiceover talking about immigration, as you mentioned, which is a theme from the suite. Let's listen to a movement. This is the third movement from Message from the Mountains. It's called Sunrise Special. Just Want to point out, that clarion call that you hear from the trumpets really pumps up that idea of celebration, which is. Is wonderful. And. And speaking of, you know, the orchestral element of it, Mike, you didn't play on this album, as I understand it, but you conducted it. Is that right?

[Mike Post]

Yes, I. I composed it, orchestrated it, along with a. A young man that I work with named John o'. Hara. But I did play guitar on. On one of the movements, this thing in A minor. That was kind of my little practice piece before I even thought about doing this record, you know, so. But yes, you know, my job was the composition, the orchestration and. And com. And, you know, and the conducting of it. The. The plane was mainly other people, to a great extent. Other people.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

Tell me about conducting. Where did you learn to conduct an orchestra?

[Mike Post]

Well, I was a. You know, I'm. I'm the first of a generation of people raised on a radio, raised on television. A rock and roller that learned how to read, write, orchestrate, and conduct. That's sort of backwards. You know, most people that are comfortable with a lot of players with the orchestra, they come from a legit background, and I come from, you know, two or three years of classical piano lessons, and then. No, no, no, wait a second. I got to learn how to play this rock and roll stuff. So that's what happened. And then I went back and relearned how to read and write and. And became literate again when I was 18. So I did it backwards. I really didn't become any good as a conductor until I got hired years and years ago in 1970 to be the musical director of the Andy Williams show. Actually, it was 1969. So on that gig, I knew how to start him and stop him, but that's about all I knew through the. The kindness of a wonderful man named Ted Dale. He came up to me. He was the librarian passing out the music and. And organizing the sheet music for the orchestra to play. He. About the seventh or eighth show, he said, can I talk to you a second? I said, sure. He said, I've never seen anybody that knew so little accomplish so much. And I said, well, thank you, I think. And he said, you know, you need some lessons, and I'm the guy to teach you. And I said, fantastic. So he became my conducting teacher, and he was. He was. He hung in there with me. It took me a little while.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

That is definitely a compliment you question and carry for the rest of your life.

[Mike Post]

That's indeed.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

Let's go from bluegrass to the blues. The second suite of the album is called Echoes of the Delta. I would love to hear a clip from John the Revelator. Here's that clip right now.

[Amy Keys]

Tell me who's that writer? Who's that writer? Who's that writer? John the Revelator, the Book of the seven Seas. Tell me what's he writing? Tell me what's he writing. Tell me what he write. John the Revelator wrote the Book of the Seven Seals.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Mike Post. He's the Grammy Award winning musician and producer. He's also the composer behind the iconic Law and Order theme song. And he's releasing his first album in 30 years. It's called Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta and it's out tomorrow. And Mike, you know, listening to John the Revelator, we hear that deep, that deep, beautiful voice singing those lyrics. Is there anything you're trying to communicate to the listener with this blue suite?

[Mike Post]

You know, definitely. The entire piece speaks to the horror of slavery. It speaks to the joy and the triumph of overcoming that. Not that we've overcome it even 50%, because the ripples from that boulder in our pond keep, as, you know, keep resonating. This is, this is the worst thing that you can imagine to do to people. Okay. However, what did it produce? Well, it, it didn't kill the black soul, isn't a good thing. It didn't enrich in it, but it did produce the blues. And, and, you know, me and all the other people with this kind of pigment of our skin that is not black have bowed at that altar for, you know, hundreds of years. And, you know, I don't know how the blues does what it does. And I know a lot about it. It's magic. It's just magic. And it starts for me, you know, it starts with like Blind Willie Johnson, who wrote John the Revelator. That's the only piece of music on this thing I didn't write, you know, but that's the great Amy Keys singing it. And I, I tried to be respectful. I tried to load up the, the rhythm section for the blues peeps with people whose ancestors came from Africa. Not that all of ours probably didn't, you know, but, but I tried to, I, I tried to ride that line that all of us white guys who have, you know, drowned in the blues kind of go, wow. You know, I don't know where race plays into this. It's hard to understand. It really is hard to understand as a composer.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

And it sounds like Collaboration was really important for you to get this right. Is that fair?

[Mike Post]

Oh, God, 100%. Listen, you know, I watch you listening to the music, you know, here on this, and I see you bobbing up and down and kind of gravitating towards it, and that's all I care about. But the first thing I wanted to have happen was I wanted my friends and family to like, what. What was. What happened here? The second thing I wanted was the guys that. The people that played on and sang on it. I wanted them to like it. And the third thing I want is people to realize that I'm not trying to change the course of the Mississippi river, and I'm not trying to redo history. I'm just saying how much I personally see as a value in these two genres of music.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

A reflection and introspective celebration of America and of bluegrass and of blues. We, of course, have to talk a bit about Law and Order because you're, of course, the man behind this now iconic theme. And I'm sure you've been asked this a thousand times, so thank you so much for your indulgence. I just want to put that up top. But we're fans of the show, so we have to ask, what's the story of the moment you first came up with this theme song?

[Mike Post]

So, you know, as opposed to this. To this album that drops tomorrow, you know, my career mostly has been they bring me a script or they tell me a story, or they show me a piece of film, and I put my art with their art, and hopefully it's more artful. So, you know, it's not standalone music. I look at it at a piece of film and. And hopefully get inspired. In this particular case, my friend Dick Wolf, who had been a writer on Hill Street Blues, which I had had done for all the years it was on, came to me and said, I've got an idea for a show. And he told me, and he said, you know, it's. It's all done in New York. It's, you know, it's wet streets, it's steam coming out of the manhole covers. It's. It. You know, it's. It's tough. And the first half is the, you know, the cops and the crime and the perpetrators, and the second half's the lawyers, the defense and the prosecution and the trial, and blah, blah, blah. I went, okay, great. Well, what are you thinking musically? He said, well, I don't know. You know, he said, it's got to be. Got to have an edge to it. But for sure. It's got to sign the signature of New York City. I said, dick, I hate to, to tell you this, but that, that's already been done. There was a guy named George Gershwin. You know, it's called Rhapsody. And Blut signs. The signature in New York City goes, well, yeah, just do that. So I went, oh, great. Just. Just do that, huh? Okay. So I sat down and I, you know, started thinking around with a lick on a. On the keyboard, you know. You know, okay, fine, I pick up this. I just gotten this new stratocaster. This is 30 some odd years ago. And I started snapping the strings away from the fingerboard, bat, bat, bat, you know. And then the next thing you know, I had this da section. I thought, okay, this guy wants me to sign the signature for New York City. Well, I'll tell you what, I'll start with the clarinet. All right? At least you feel like the clarinet.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

Kind of captures New York City. Is that fair to say?

[Mike Post]

Yeah. Well, thank you, Mr. Gershwin. Yeah, right. You know, so, so, you know, I, I came up with that, that little B section and I ran it by Dick. And he goes, hey, perfect. That's great. That's my show. Thank you.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

That's wonderful. As folks start to listen to your new album, Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta, how do you hope they finish feeling once they listen to it all the way through?

[Mike Post]

Great question. Wow, really great question. You know, number one, I want them to feel something, whether it's entertained or inspired or, or just, wow, that was cool. Or I guess the overriding thing is a quote from Sam Phillips, Sun Records guy that discovered Elvis and Johnny Cash and Jerry Lee Lewis. And the quote is, if you're not doing something different, you're not doing hardly anything at all, you know? Well, so I'm trying to. I was trying to. I'm trying to do something different, you know, to trying to combine things that hadn't been combined exactly this way. So more than anything, I guess I'd hope that the audience would walk away going, wow, that's different.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

We've been talking to Mike Post. He's Grammy Award winning musician and computer and producer. He was also the composer behind the iconic Law and Order theme song. He's releasing his first album in 30 years tomorrow. It's called Message from the Mountains and Echoes of the Delta. It's got bluegrass, it's got blues, it's got America. Mike, thank you so much for joining us.

[Mike Post]

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

Absolutely. And we love to go out on another movement from the album. This is circle back home.

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[McDonald's Customer]

I'm gonna put you on, nephew.

[Mike Post]

All right, unc.

[Radio Host (Kusha Navadar)]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[McDonald's Employee]

Can I take your order, miss?

[McDonald's Customer]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.