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- [00:07]
A
You're listening to all of IT on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. She's out today to get ready for tonight's big get lit with all of it book club event with Michael Chabon, the author of the Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay. If you have tickets to the event, she will see you at the New York public library at 6pm and if you don't have tickets, you can follow along on the web stream. Just head to wnyc.org getlit to find out how. Again, that is wnyc.org getlit that's in about five hours. Right now, an hour of conversation about the climate, and I promise that a little bit of it will be funny. Climate Week NYC takes place all this week that runs through Sunday. The series of events is meant to encourage discussion and action to respond to climate change. President Donald Trump was also in New York this week addressing the United Nations. In his speech, he called climate change the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world. Meanwhile, it's the consensus of world scientists that fossil fuels are causing a climate crisis, leading to increased heat, drought, wildfires, flooding and other extreme weather across the globe. Later this hour, we're going to be joined by comedy writers who try to break through all of the misinformation with humor. But right now, we look at how extreme weather may be having an impact on where you live and especially where you may be looking to move. Earlier this year, the New York Times published an article titled Health how to Shop for a Home that won't be upended by climate change. And our next guests, New York Times yous Money columnist Ron Lieber and personal finance reporter Tara Siegel Bernard compiled a list of questions that they say every current or prospective homeowner or renter should ask to mitigate their risk. Ron and Tara, welcome to ALL of it.
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B
Thanks for having us.
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A
Hello and listeners. We'd like to have you join this conversation. If you have questions about your home's climate risks, give us a call. Are you looking to move and wondering how to get more information about those risks or how to deal with things like flood insurance? Call in to speak to the New York Times money writers Ron Lieber and Tara Siegel Bernard. The number is 212433, 9692. That's 212433, WNYC. Ron, you are the New York Times yous Money columnist, Tara, is a personal finance reporter. What drew you both to write this piece about climate change?
- [03:01]
C
Risks, intense personal fear. I have been.
- [03:07]
A
Fear is a good motivator.
- [03:09]
C
Yeah. So, you know, I've been a, an apartment owner in Brooklyn and Park slope for over 20 years. And like many Americans lucky enough to be a homeowner, a pretty decent chunk of my net worth is in that Park Slope apartment. New York City is a part of the world that is climate exposed, most places are these days. And so I got to wondering just how devastating it would be from a personal finance perspective if Sandy to the 10th plower came and knocked out all of New York City electricity for six months or took the subways down for a couple of years. Who would want my apartment at that point? But if you start to think about how to diversify your risk, you're wondering, well, where should I go next? And what I found was that nowhere was there a comprehensive list of questions or some answers that could help you find out the answer to the question of where I might go next. That's safest. So, you know, that idea sat around for a couple of years. And then when the fires happened in California earlier this year, I came to work and Tara and I huddled, as we often do, and we decided we were going to start asking some questions and getting some answers.
- [04:35]
A
Well, Tara, was that really a big part of what pushed you to work on this, the guide? You started working on this shortly after the fires in Los Angeles.
- [04:45]
B
Yes, but it's, it's been an area of coverage of ours for years. You know, I remember a moment, a story back during Hurricane Sandy where I went to visit a homeowner in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn. And she took me through her home and, you know, just seeing the damage, you know, on this kind of stony street in Brooklyn, it kind of, you know, brought it all home and it made, you know, just interested in the, in the, in the topic. She had what she called a sacrificial space. Like she had to, you know, basically sacrifice the entire first floor of her home, you know, to get insured to, to ensure that this wouldn't happen again. So it's always been an area of interest.
- [05:36]
A
What does that mean? She had to sacrifice that space?
- [05:39]
B
Like, she had to. Basically, it kind of looked like a garage, you know, like it was going to. Anything that you put there was almost as if, you know, the homes that you see built on stilts on, you know, the beach.
- [05:50]
A
This is now not livable space.
- [05:52]
B
Yes, exactly.
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A
Okay, that's, that's their version of this is the house on stilts down there is not livable space anymore.
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B
Right.
- [06:02]
A
Well, Ron, you write in the article you mentioned this. Everything is diverse. Diversification and risk. What does that mean in this context? We can't all buy five houses and hope that one of them survives. What do you mean by that?
- [06:18]
C
Well, I guess it starts for everyone with assessing the risk where they are and trying to come up with some sort of personal measuring stick, a scorekeeping mechanism where you can begin to assess whether your risk, whatever it is, and it can be different by the block. Right. Whether your risk is simply too high. And if you want to do something to diversify that risk or lower it, taking your single dwelling unit that you have, selling it and moving someplace safer. How did it define safe and which parameters to use?
- [07:00]
A
How do you define safe? Right. Which location is the safest is a tough question. And let's get to some of your questions. If you'd like to join this discussion, give us a call. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212433. WNYC Lorraine in Nyack. Welcome to all of it.
- [07:24]
D
Hi, thanks for taking my call. I have a question. My house is a little less than a half a mile from the Hudson river. And I've read opposite things. I've read that it's okay to live by a river because with global warming, rivers are going to actually be going down. And then I read other reports that say all waterways are going to be dangerous for your home. So I was just wondering what it is.
- [07:54]
A
Yeah. Tara, do you want to try to tackle that?
- [07:59]
B
It's tough. It depends on where your home is. Is your home located on a flood plain? Can you, can you find where you are on the FEMA map? And you know, that might give you a general sense of your risk. The interesting thing, the scary part is that, you know, there's a large percentage of floods that happen to homes that aren't on the flood maps. So even that is not a fail safe. But that's probably the first place that you want to look is, you know, has, has or, and, and the area around it. Also, if you look up your home on, even on like a, a, a Redfin or a Zillow or the homes around you that may be for sale, there's a lot of data that's actually baked into real estate listings these days, so, and a lot of it's supplied by a company called first street and, and that can also give you a, your current risk. Ron, do you have anything else you wanted to add to that?
- [09:09]
A
Yeah. Ron, are there any other resources that might be Useful for Lorraine?
- [09:14]
C
Sure. I mean, the interesting thing about first street is that they claim to be pulling in more data and coming up with predictions for future floods that are more accurate than what FEMA is able to do. Many of the flooded areas in recent storms and hurricanes have not been on FEMA's maps at all. And FEMA, which is part of the federal government, says straight up that the maps are not necessarily always predictive. Given the cuts in Washington, who knows what's going to become of fema? One thing we should mention is that anybody who thinks they even remotely have some risk related to flood should look at getting federal flood insurance or even private flood insurance where it exists. It may not be perfect, it may be expensive, but, you know, buying the insurance is a whole lot cheaper than, you know, packing up and moving someplace else.
- [10:15]
A
I'm going to take more of your calls in just a moment if you'd like to join the discussion. 212-433-9692. We are speaking with the New York Times finance writers Ron Lieber and Tara Siegel Bernard. They are the authors of this article, how to Shop for a Home that Won't Be Upended by Climate Change. And Tara, this article features over 60 questions with answers related to climate change risk. What was your methodology? How did you come up with the questions? And who did you speak to to research these answers?
- [10:53]
B
Well, I guess we kind of approached it as you would, you know, any reporting exercise. But I guess we kind of viewed this through the lens of buying a home, relocating, and just starting from the very beginning and walking through each step of the way, you know, location, location, location, and then moving along to the structure itself and the risks that could lie there. And you know, what you need to complete the purchase in order to buy a home, most people need a mortgage. If you need a mortgage, you need homeowners insurance. If you can't get homeowners insurance, then you can't get the mortgage. So there's a lot of. We just kind of took that natural progression and tried to fill in the blanks and just kind of brainstorm. Ron and I brainstormed with these dozens of questions that ended up to answer them required, I think, 10,000 words. Right, Ron? So, so that was our initial exercise.
- [12:03]
A
Well, let's get to more questions. There's more than just those 60 questions. We have questions coming in right now. And let's hear from Alex in Long Island City. Welcome.
- [12:14]
E
Hi, how are you? First big question is thank you very much. And then I was wondering where your article is published. And then my question is, how about like now I've been reading, I've been looking at like possible southern Vermont, but I've been hearing that they have so many dry spells now, their wells are drying out. So on the flip side of not having enough water, does that seem like something also to be, I guess, really concerned about?
- [12:49]
C
Thanks, Alex. This is Ron. If you do a search online for the headline how to shop for a home that won't be upended by climate change, you should be able to find it right quick. I'll tackle your water questions because I tackled the water questions in the story. This all begins with the question, well, where does the water from my home come from in New York City? We don't really have to worry about it. You know, it comes from, you know, upstate a bit. And you know, we've got some of the best drinking water in America. We don't have to worry so much or we haven't traditionally about droughts, droughts and the faucets running dry. If you're in Vermont, there's a decent chance your water may come from a well. And so if you're looking at a property, you're going to want to ask for the most recent inspection papers from the well. You're going to want talk to neighbors about whether they've had issues with their wells. And yeah, you're going to want to think about how drought or potential drought could affect your water supply. You know, if the water happens to be from a municipal source well, you know, what are the long term projections for its quality and its quantity? What's the potential for neighbors, you know, industrial, agricultural or otherwise, to pollute the water? What's the potential for neighbors to deplete the water? Right. Say if, you know, a data center moves in and it needs a bunch of water to, you know, for various cooling mechanisms, you know, and there are other questions. So, you know, in our story we have a whole list of resources and links of places you could go. I get that this sounds exhausting.
- [14:42]
A
I was just going to say, you know, thinking of looking at buying a house and oh, hey, can you make sure that those bricks are fixed on the top of the chimney? And now let me research the future of water in the region for the next hundred years. That it's a lot.
- [14:58]
C
It's a lot and we spent a lot of time and killed a lot of brain cells. Figure out how to point people to the, you know, to decent answers. But I mean, you know, this may well be the biggest investment you will ever make. You Know, a home, if you own one in many instances, is the biggest chunk of your net worth. And so how can you not ask the questions that you are already clearly inclined to ask? And you should ask a lot of questions. And if the real estate agent or the owner is squirrely or defensive, then, you know, all the more reason to double down on your questions.
- [15:39]
A
And we'll get to more of those questions in just a moment. We're speaking with New York Times finance writers Ron Lieber and Tara Siegel Bernard. Again, their article is how to Shop for a Home that Won't Be Upended by Climate Change. We continue that conversation in just a moment. This is all of it on wnyc. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. We are speaking with New York Times finance writers Ron Lieber and Tara Siegel Bernard. They're the authors of the article how to Shop for a Home that Won't Be Upended by Climate Change. And Tara, this, this is not just guidance for homeowners. Right. This is useful for renters as well. In fact, the article at some point says that renting may ultimately be the smartest long term play. Is that right?
- [16:37]
B
Yeah. I mean, if you're not responsible for ha for the structure of the home, that's a big load off. But you know, as a renter, you still need to consider, you know, your risks. And, and for renters, it' to be your belongings. But like most homeowners policies, renters insurance policies also may not cover all of the perils that you may be exposed to. So, you know, like with a homeowner's policy, renters policies often mirror that and won't cover floods. So you may need to get, you know, additional coverage or a special rider for that, for example. So it's, it requires a bit of research. But, but you can protect yourself with, you know, a rental policy which, you know, is a lot easier than having to, you know, repair a home or, you know, in worst case scenario, rebuild a home.
- [17:45]
A
Right. Exactly. The number to call if you would like to join this conversation. 212-433-9692. Call or text 212-433-WNYC. And Ron, we have a question here. How is the relocation, this is a text. How is the relocation of people of means going to affect those who are not people of means? And how are the purchases of second homes as safe houses? How could that affect the affordable housing crisis?
- [18:20]
C
It could affect it a lot. You know, what we don't have A ton of evidence on yet is of significant numbers of people high income or not buying second homes or migrating permanently in terms of their primary homes from high climate risk areas of which there are many to areas that seem right now like they will be safer. The upper Midwest, interior Maine, parts of western Massachusetts in particular showed up on a lot of our maps as the sort of green areas as opposed to the red areas. I don't doubt and if somebody out there has evidence of it, please track us down. We're easy to find. I don't doubt that somewhere some hedge fund is buying up land or buying up houses in a community of choice, whether it's Duluth, Minnesota or Pittfield, Massachusetts or someplace else. They've picked on a map where they think that climate refugees will end up 20 or 30 or 40 years from now if in fact that becomes thing. So look, it's absolutely the case that long term residents of lower incomes could be crowded out. Gentrification is an age old story in America and it would not be surprising if some form of climate gentrification came to pass at some point in the future.
- [20:09]
A
Okay, Tara, I have another question for you here. This is another text. Hi, my wife and I are considering buying a house on the south shore of Long island that is in a high risk flood zone but is priced reasonably. So we're trying to weigh the risks. Is there a chance that we're going to not be able to acquire flood insurance?
- [20:32]
B
That is a distinct possibility or it's just really expensive, so you need to find out. Well, the best way to go about it is to find an independent real estate, independent insurance agents because the market changes so quickly. It's so fluid. You know, carriers move in and out of markets, you know, depending on how much risk they're willing to carry at a particular moment of time. If they just took a ton of losses, you might see some even major carriers we've seen in California and other states move in and out. It's best to pair with an independent agent who can survey the marketplace who really knows who is moving in and out at that particular moment and who might be able to find a policy for you. I haven't heard the reporting, didn't, our reporting didn't really find as many people not getting insurance in New York as a, as opposed to a place, you know, like the Wildfire country in California or you know, somewhere in flood country in Louisiana. But it is, it is still really difficult. It might be more expensive.
- [22:02]
A
Ron, the first question in your guide is this. Are there rules that dictate what I have to be told about climate risk or about a property's history. So tell us, are there, you know, do you have to be told about, for example, flood risk, flood history on a property?
- [22:21]
C
So this was an area of reporting that Tara tackled. I will preview this by saying that there are five states, New York is not one of them, that have a sort of buyer beware policy where sellers are not required to disclose all defects. You know, then the rules in, you know, quote, unquote, safer states sort of depend on the jurisdiction. But, Tara, do you want to weigh in further on that?
- [22:51]
B
Right. Yeah. Most home sellers generally disclose, you know, all their known material defects and anything else that might affect the value of the property, whether that's structural, mechanical, and a majority of states require them to disclose flood risks. But, you know, it's something that in working with a seasoned real estate agent, they might, you know, be able to tell you what the rules are in your area and, you know, what. What to look for, what questions to ask, and, you know, make that list of questions and think it through.
- [23:30]
A
I mean, it does seem overwhelming. Ron, I know we touched on this, but, you know, time is of the essence. Sometimes when you're trying to buy a home and maybe there's some competition for that home, where would you start if you want to get some quick information? Are websites like Street Easy and Zillow good sources of information for some of these climate concerns? Or if not, where else could we look?
- [23:54]
C
Yeah, I think the best place to start might be fema, the Federal Emergency Management Agency's National Risk Index map. You can search by census tract there, and that will help give you kind of a good sense, kind of at the start of some sort of comprehensive or like an overarching red, yellow, green assessment of where you are. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's website has a heat tracker, you know, that can help you keep track of temperature history and trends, you know, sort of FEMA for flooding. So, you know, within 20 or 30 minutes, you can get a pretty good sense, you know, kind of by region. You know, if you're shopping, you know, if it was me and I was looking at a particular property, I'd treat the situation like we do as a reporter, right? There is no substitute for touching grass with your feet, with the bottoms of your shoes. You walk the neighborhood, you knock on doors, you stop in at the office of local politicians, even if you've only got a day to figure it out, you know, kind of standing on a street corner and just, you know, Sticking your nose in the air and taking a whiff. You know, you could, you can learn a lot about an area relatively quickly by, you know, just using your five senses and talking to people as they walk by.
- [25:38]
A
Those sources that you were mentioning, that might tell us something about the here and now when it comes to flood risk and stuff like that. But what about projecting into the future? How do you try to assess that risk as you think about different extreme weather events, Tara, like wildfires, flooding, heat, hurricanes, tornadoes.
- [26:02]
B
Right. Well, you want to start with the federal government data. You know, the US Department of Agriculture has a webpage and again going back to FEMA and their maps, states, you know, if we're looking, if we're talking about wildfires, for example, they have their own data sets. But you really have to first I guess figure out, you know, what, what the peril, you're, you're worried, then go from there. You know, like Ron was saying, there are heat trackers and at the CDC and flooding history. The, you know, it's all, it's all a bit different. But our, our piece really does kind of break down. It's so granular and detailed and overwhelming. But if you use that as a guide, we do provide a ton of links that can help. There's also a, A, A, a group, an advocacy group in known as United Policyholders and they're focused on insurance. But there's a lot of helpful information on where to get started if you're working.
- [27:15]
A
Well, speaking of insurance, we just got another question, Ron, via text here. What happens if I get insurance and approved for a mortgage and later the insurance company leaves the state and then I can't find any or can't find any affordable insurance.
- [27:34]
C
That is an excellent question. So I think what the, what the listener is asking is if, you know, you somehow, if your mortgage will somehow be, you know, taken away or yanked away if your insurance company takes a walk and you're having trouble finding new coverage? You know, the, the one thing that is worth noting here, you know, we don't see a lot of this in New York just yet, but it's definitely a thing in California and Florid and several other states is that by necessity, in order to keep the housing market from collapsing, in order to make sure that people can satisfy the mortgage requirement that they have home insurance, all sorts of states have built these companies known as insurers of last resort. And they're essentially state owned insurance companies. I mean, you know, it's Desantis Amalgamated in Florida. That's not what it's called, but, but that's basically what it is. And these companies in California and Florida, these state owned insurance companies, this is where you go when no one else will insure you. And these state owned companies have become the largest insurers, the largest home insurers in their states in some instances. And really what other choice does the state have? Because if homeowners have no place else to go for insurance, they can't get a mortgage and then the prices collapse and then property taxes and property tax collections go down and it's a death spiral that literally sort of destroys the state. So the government has no choice at the end of the day but to backstop all of this stuff. But it may cost you a lot of money in premiums and the coverage may be nowhere near as good as what you might get from a private insurer. And this is going on in a ton of communities in Florida and New York. And this is one of the things that you ask about when you're knocking on the doors, hey, have you been dropped? Right? You want to know what's coming or what there is at least a non zero chance of might come your way.
- [29:49]
A
And Ron, you mentioned there are a lot of links in your article. So just, just again, search for the article. It's called how to Shop for a Home that Won't Be Upended by Climate Change. And just to wrap up here, Ron and Tara, let me ask you this question. According to your research, where, you know, tell us where to go. Where are the least risky places to live as you try to plan for a future amid the reality of climate change? Tara, do you want to go first?
- [30:18]
B
Sure. We'll be those of the Midwest, as Ron was saying earlier, western Massachusetts. And you know, even in these high risk areas, you know, everybody's, a lot of people are, are attracted because of, you know, the, the, these spots where you're close to the city and, but you're also really close to nature and, and it's, it's just a, it's a risk that you really have to weigh heavily. And you know, maybe you, the urban interface, the actual word is escaping me at the moment, but it's, you know, it's really popular in California, but those are the highest, you know, risk where, you know, you may not quite be all the way there. But yes, Detroit, I've seen on many lists western Massachusetts. Ron, what do you have to add to that list?
- [31:21]
C
Interior Maine, parts of upstate New York. But I guess one of the questions people have to ask themselves is what actually scares you most. There is an emotional component to this. If you just can't stand the heat. I am just not a hot weather person, so that would personally play into it for me. You know, there's like a misery index element of this as much as a, you know, sort of catastrophic risk. You know, if you've had experiences of water scarcity and that's the thing that's most important to you emotionally, then you might want to be, you know, near one of the Great Lakes or, you know, some other place where there is abundant water and, you know, zero chance that anybody around you is going to, you know, SAP it in some way, shape or form. So, you know, much depends on the risk that you're looking to avoid. But, you know, one clear conclusion of the reporting is that there really isn't Anywhere that is 100% safe, but you may be able to get a lot safer than you are right now.
- [32:31]
A
All right, well, the searches on interior Maine just spiked. We have been speaking with New York Times reporters Ron Lieber and Tara Siegel Bernard. Their list of questions to ask when deciding where to live to minimize your climate risks can be found in that New York Times Times article, how to shop for a home that won't be upended by climate change. Thanks both of you for joining us today.
- [32:55]
C
Thanks so much.
- [32:56]
B
Thank you.
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F
I don't mean to interrupt your meal, but I saw you from across a cafe and you're the Geico Gecko, right?
- [33:02]
G
In the flesh.
- [33:03]
F
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- [33:08]
G
Well, that's how Geico gets 97% customer satisfaction.
- [33:12]
F
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- [33:14]
G
No worries. So are you just gonna watch me eat?
- [33:18]
F
Oh, sorry, just a little starstruck. I'll be on my way.
- [33:22]
G
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- [33:24]
F
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- [33:25]
A
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- [33:26]
C
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- [33:27]
H
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