← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Love and Lust Without Limits: The Rise of Queer Romance Novels
00:23:58
Romance novels are experiencing a surge in popularity, and the sales of LGBTQ+ novels in particular are taking off.
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Tiffany Hansen
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Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Tiffany Hansen for Alison Stewart. All right, close your eyes. Imagine a typical cover of a romance novel from back in the day. A couple very swoon worthy. The man is tall, handsome. Maybe you get a peek at his chest. A woman is has long flowing hair. Well, that was then and this is now. The genre is opening up. It's featuring gay couples and trans characters, and the reader response to that has been overwhelmingly positive. But books like the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, Delilah Green Doesn't Care by Ashley Herring Blake are both on the bestseller list. Red, White and Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston was turned into a popular Amazon prime movie. And According to a 2023 article from the New York Times, readership for LGBTQ romance novels has seen a 740% increase over a five year period. And this continues to grow in 2025. So we can suffice it to say that gay and lesbian romance novels are having a bit of a moment. Joining us to talk about the genre and the trends is Leah Koch. She is the co owner of the Ripped Bodice, a romance bookstore in Park Slope. We're going to talk with her about her favorite queer books and listeners. We want to hear from you as well. Are you a frequent romance reader? What is your favorite LGBTQ romance book? What do you recommend for people asking for gay or lesbian or trans romances? You can call us 2124-3396-9221-2433-9692. But first, Leah, welcome.
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Leah Koch
Thank you so much for having me.
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Alison Stewart
All right, let's talk about the Ripped Bodice. All right. You started it with your sister. If, if I'm to believe what's written on my notes here. And did you do that because you're both avid romance readers or. Yeah, I see you nodding.
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Leah Koch
Yeah, definitely. We opened in 2016 and we were the first romance bookstore in the United States. And I think there were two things that we loved and they were romance novels and independent bookstores. And the naivete of youth led us to believe that we were the people to make this happen for the first time in the United States.
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Alison Stewart
And we should say that first store was in La Right, that's correct. Okay.
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Leah Koch
Yes. Our original store is in Los Angeles, which is still obviously open, and then our second location is in Parkslope, Brooklyn.
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Alison Stewart
So I mentioned this sort of sweeping change in the romance genre that's been happening in the last five years. You've now been at this for a while. So I'm just curious how you see success changing for romance writers. How you see the popularity of the genre, just romance writ large, how you see that evolving from the time you guys started with that one store in LA to today?
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Leah Koch
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. Sometimes I think that romance has hit as high as it's going to go, and I'm just proved wrong time and time again. So I would have said when we opened that in 2016, almost 10 years ago now, that romance was huge and a financial juggernaut, which is true. But to look at how far we've come over the past 10 years is pretty incredible. I think what a really good indication for us of sort of the mainstreaming of romance was when the New York Times hired a dedicated romance reviewer. You know, I think romance.
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Alison Stewart
When was that? When was that?
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Leah Koch
Oh, gosh, I want to say maybe 2019, but. Okay, please, somebody fact check me on that.
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Alison Stewart
No, but like, not yesterday.
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Leah Koch
No, no, a couple of years after we open.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah, okay, gotcha.
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Leah Koch
And. And that felt like a really sort of monumental moment for us, that sort of mainstream recognition. Not that we need that, but it's nice in some ways.
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Alison Stewart
Have you seen, because you kind of straddle as a bookstore owner, you straddle that line between readers, you have some, you know, you have your interaction with the people that come in the store, and you also interact with publishers, I would assume. Right. So, um, how have you seen the publishing, publishing industry and publishers change their view of romance?
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Leah Koch
I think, listen, the publishing industry moves pretty slowly, especially traditional publishing, indie publishing, self publishing, that can move at the speed of light. So oftentimes those more non traditional models of publishing are really on the forefront, especially when it comes to responding really quickly to what readers are asking for. But the biggest change has just been the amount of queer romance that is being published by traditional publishers. Probably 10 years ago, maybe one a year, maybe, if that. And now it's, you know, multiple a month from a lot of publishers. And I think as much as I give them a hard time about, you know, being slow and everything, they. They do respond ultimately to sales and to financials. This is a business. So the more people buy things like queer romance, the more they're going to.
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Alison Stewart
Publish listeners, we are talking in this Pride month about LGBTQ romance books. We're talking with the owner of the Ripped Bodice. It's a romance bookstore in Park Slope and in Los Angeles. But we're going to talk about the one in Park Slope with Leah Koch. And we're looking for your recommendations as well. Do you have a favorite author? Are there certain books that you go back to? Because I imagine, Leah, you know, sometimes people read and reread and reread these stories, right? I. Yeah. So do you have a favorite? Call us with your recommendation. 2124-3396-9221-2433-9692. Leah, the first text we have coming in here, Rita May Brown. Always and forever the best. So. So tell us a little bit about what you know about Rita Mae Brown.
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Leah Koch
I mean, that is. That's somebody who knows their history. Like, that is, you know, an author who's been writing a long time. I'm not gonna guess the number of years. Cause I'm gonna get it wrong. But, you know, I. It's interesting. I think when people think of queer romance from probably before 10 years ago, a lot of times they're thinking about things that maybe aren't as what we would consider traditional romance. These days, I'm thinking about, like, James Baldwin and Call Me by youy Name. And there were just so much fewer options. So many fewer options. So just to, you know, remind people the. The thing you need to be a romance novel is a happy ending. So a lot of the. More at this point, we'll call them historical. I would just say queer fiction, just because of the time they're writing in, a lot of times does not have a happy ending. So I think that is something that really sets apart queer romance because things are still quite rough for LGBTQ folks these days. So I. To. To me, to be guaranteed that happy ending is something I find really comforting.
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Alison Stewart
Let's bring Leah. Let's bring Mary Lynn from Westfield, New Jersey into the conversation. Hi, Mary Lynn.
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Mary Lynn
Hi.
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Alison Stewart
How are you doing? All right. You have a recommendation or I think.
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Mary Lynn
Start with a recommendation and add a little bit to that last thought about the happily ever after. Or is the other alternative is that we use in romance today happy for now? One of the things you explore is that it doesn't necessarily mean a permanent commitment or a wedding. But one of the things I really love is looking at historical queer romance. This is an area that's really lovely to have because we often think of this as the negative time, as when things were so bad, when things were hidden. And what romance writers are doing today is taking that and turning it on its head. In showing that there can be joy in these times, one author I would recommend in this case would be K.J. charles. A wonderful book. The band Sinister. This has a throuple. It has male, male, female combination. That's great. Showing that you can start to build these relationships even in an era where it would look like the relationship was just a heterosexual one. Another example would be Cat Sebastian, who's written Queer Romance. She's written Trans Romance. She's written almost everything there. Another great example is Olivia Waite, who's written female female romance, such as the care and feeding of WASP widows. That's one that I think is really nice to see because of course, the idea of lavender marriage is something that we've seen all the time. And one that's kind to be coming out really soon this fall is by Alexandra Basti, who's written Ladies in Hating, which is. That is. It's a story sort of about two women who can't stand one another and they're constantly pecking at one another and then of course, they end up falling for one another. And this, I think, is one of the nicest things to look at because it's not just to women, but they also have their own definitions of what they are in terms of how they feel about their sexuality. So it's not just I'm in a Sapphic romance, but it's how I feel myself in terms of being queer twins, asexual, this sort of thing. There are all these things being explored in romance. It's being explored in contemporary, but it's also being explored in historical.
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Alison Stewart
Mary Lynn, thank you so much for that call, Leah. First of all, I think Mary Lynn needs to come work at your store because she has.
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Leah Koch
She knows what she's talking about.
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Alison Stewart
She knows what she's talking about. But I just wanted to look. I was looking at your list here, Leah, and there is just kind of touching on that historical. I see on your list here A Lady for a Duke by Alexis Hall. So tell us about that book.
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Leah Koch
It's one of my favorites. Mary Lynn was just talking about some great historical romance. This is a historical. Takes place during the same time period as something like Bridgerton and the heroine is a trans woman and she knew the hero when they were young and made the choice. During that time period there was a war and instead. And basically essentially faked her own death and came back as a woman. Blending quite well. Into society. And I know that sounds like maybe there's a lot of heaviness or, you know, pain involved in that. And. And of course that's there, but it really is such a fun romp is always a good word for a Regency romance. Alexis writes all kinds of books. Contemporary as well.
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Alison Stewart
Got it. And that is A Lady for a Duke by Alexis Hall. Leah, we have a couple of other texts here that came in with some other great recommendations. They Both Die at the End, and it's a YA queer romance. And it introduced me to the genre, says one text or another. Says Bloom by Kevin Panetta. Graphic novel, monochromatic color scheme, sweet plot and baking with several exclamation points. I love that We Both Die at.
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Leah Koch
The End is by Adam Silvera.
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Alison Stewart
There we go. Thank you. And one person recommends the Darkness Outside Us. It's categorized as young adult fiction, but it's a great read for people of all ages. White. That just gets to the point of. One of the questions I was going to ask you to Leah is that, like, how defined is. And I'm putting air quotes here. Romance. Right. Because it could be a YA novel, it could be, you know, historical fiction. It could be a whole host of other, you know, fall under a whole host of other categories and still be romance.
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Leah Koch
Absolutely. There are two things that you need to be considered a romance novel, and they are essential. Love story and a happy ending. Mary Lynn mentioned happy for now, which is also true. Basically, that just means that at the end of the book, you don't need to be heterosexually married with a baby. That's what it meant like in the 70s. But these days, you know, it can mean a lot of different things. But as long as you have those two things, you can totally explore within genre, age range. Written prose, graphic novels. It really is such a wide range.
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Alison Stewart
How would you describe. And I know this is, you know, kind of a catch 22 question, but like the typical person who comes into your store, and I know that everybody is going to have a different background, a different story, but what I'm trying to get at here is, like, are most of the people that come into the ripped bodice are these people who are like, I am a romance reader and I am going to go find me some romance books. Or are these people who are like, what's this all about?
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Leah Koch
I'd say it's probably about 70, 30, you know, we are obviously on the street in New York. You can just walk by and walk in. And we certainly get lots more. Lots of people doing that, so I'd say it's about 70% people who would really consider themselves romance readers, but on all kinds of scales, you know, maybe they've read five, maybe they've read 500. And the, the range in age in particular is quite vast, you know, from about 12 to 13 to 90s.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah. And how do you. At the store, how do you build community with those people? I mean, I think that they are romance readers. Seem to me to be a very self selecting group that is very welcoming and, and also, as you said, extremely diverse. Absolutely. And so I'm just.
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Leah Koch
And not a monolith by any, by any means, of course. But these are people that, that love to read and people who come to the store. Reading is generally a fairly solitary activity for most people. So I think our events, our book clubs, even just the act of coming to the store, is a way that people can take this relatively, relatively solitary activity and make it into something with community, with connection with other people and talk about something that they really love.
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Alison Stewart
Have you seen those things going around online where you basically like get together with a group of people and you all each bring your own book and you have dinner with each other, but you're all just reading your own book? That's what I think of.
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Leah Koch
We thought about doing. There's also a trend of silent book clubs. We thought about doing one of those over the years.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, like a silent rave. But you're all just kind of, instead.
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Leah Koch
Of listening to me, everyone hangs out, reads.
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Alison Stewart
All right, well, this Pride month, we are now talking about LGBTQ romance books. Specifically, we're talking with the co owner of the Ripped Bodice in Brooklyn, Leah Koch. We're talking about LGBTQ romance books and we're looking for your recommendations. 212-433-9692. I'm wondering, you know, Leah, you've been at this now a while. You mentioned what, 2016, the store opened. So you went through the pandemic, which was a thing for independent booksellers, that a lot of them did not fare so well coming out of. How'd you survive during the pandemic?
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Leah Koch
Oh, gosh. It's a good question. And honestly, I don't even know if I've totally processed it yet. It was just such a wild time. I really attribute our survival to our community. We were really lucky. We'd been open four years at that point, so we had that community already built. Not to the extent of that we have now, but those people were really genuinely invested in our survival and they encouraged us. They Bought from us. They told their friends about us so we would not have survived without. Without genuine effort from, in most cases, total strangers.
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Alison Stewart
All right, I think I'm going to be run out of town here if I don't get to some on this list here since I've been promoting this as, as a list of recommendations. Okay, so I see number one on your list here is. Here we go again. Allison. Is it Cochrane?
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Leah Koch
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
Okay, so briefly, tell us about that book.
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Leah Koch
Okay, brace yourself. Sapphic road trip comedy about death. I swear it's funny.
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Alison Stewart
I mean, your description was good, so I'm in. Okay, we're just gonna plow through a couple of these so that we get. So that book was. Here we go Again by Alison Cochran. You should See Me in a Crown by Leah Johnson. Is this a teen?
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Leah Koch
Yes. Ya.
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Alison Stewart
Okay.
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Leah Koch
I think if it was the musical, the prom without the singing and dancing and more emotional resonance.
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Alison Stewart
Okay, all right. But not, not ya. Like only for, only for young people.
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Leah Koch
I mean, I'm an adult. The characters are in high school and certainly if you have teens in your life, I think they would enjoy it. But lots of adults love to read.
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Alison Stewart
And have been teens and lots.
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Leah Koch
Absolutely.
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Alison Stewart
Something Wild and Wonderful by Anita Kelly.
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Leah Koch
Two men meet hiking the Pacific Crest Trail.
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Alison Stewart
Oh my gosh. I see here it's described, this book is described as having the, quote, grumpy sunshine trope. What in the heck?
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Leah Koch
What is that? Yeah, everyone is familiar with this whether you know it or not. But it's basically, you know, in a, in a partnership, one person is sort of brimming over with, you know, joy, excitement, positivity, and the other one is not.
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Alison Stewart
The other one is not.
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Leah Koch
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
So it's like Odd Couple kind of territory. Yeah, yeah. All right.
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Leah Koch
That kind of thing.
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Alison Stewart
Okay. And do all of these that we've mentioned so far have that either happy ending and, or happy for now?
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Leah Koch
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah. So that really is a thing. Like it really that in order to fall into the romance category, it kind of has to live there.
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Leah Koch
Yes. I mean, we, I, I sell romance novels. Everything I'm going to recommend meets that criteria. Sometimes people sort of try to get around it, which, to each their own, but it doesn't really work. Like, my best example, I always say, is like, Anna Karenina is not a romance novel. She dies.
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Alison Stewart
Right. Yeah. Spoiler for a very recently published book. So I wonder, do you find a lot of folks who use this as kind of an escape to feel better?
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Leah Koch
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Every single day. You know, as bad as it is to say the worst things are in the real world, the better our sales are.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah.
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Leah Koch
And. And it's not. I'm not. That's not necessarily a positive or negative thing from my perspective. If these books can make people, you know, forget their troubles for a little while, that has tremendous value to me.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah. Let's talk with Emily in Westchester. Hi, Emily.
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Mary Lynn
Hello.
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Alison Stewart
You have a recommendation?
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Emily
Yes, I absolutely do. First of all, I love the ripped bodice. I go there all the time. My recommendation is A Strange and Stubborn Endurance by Foz Meadows. F O Z. It's one of my favorite queer romances. It is quite long, it's over 500 pages. But I really think that it is an excellent example of, let's see, how a diplomatic marriage does not necessarily need to be a sad one. And it is really great. It is really good at showing queer joy because one of the main characters who marries into another. Another family from another country, he comes from a homophobic. He comes from a homophobic place and he goes to a queer place that is more opening. And his just absolute disbelief at the differences and how he can be free to be himself, it just coupled with this blossoming romance between him and his new spouse, I think is such a joy to read.
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Alison Stewart
Thank you, Emily, for the recommendation. And Leah, this is a strange and stubborn endurance. And I've already forgotten the name of the author.
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Leah Koch
Pause. F O Z Meadows.
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Alison Stewart
Foz Meadows. Okay, one last here for your list of recommendations. I don't think I've mentioned this one yet. And I want to end on this. This is in New York. This is two. This is 1950s New York. It's called Last Night at the Telegraph Club. Great title, by the way, by Melinda Lowe. So just tell us about that.
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Leah Koch
It is such a beautiful book. The characters are young. It is sort of marketed as ya, but I really think everyone would love it. And it's sort of what Mary Lynn was talking about a little bit a few minutes ago, where, you know, historical periods that from where we sit now, we sort of believe everyone must have been miserable all the time. It is really, you know, pushing back against that notion and saying, no, queer people have always existed and they've always found ways to experience queer joy. And it's a really beautiful novel. I really. I really recommend it.
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Alison Stewart
So we are in Pride Month. Just tell us really quickly what you have planned at the ripped bodice for the rest of Pride Month. Any events coming up or anything you want to mention?
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Leah Koch
Yes, we. I've been joking with my staff that June is the New December. You know, December is traditionally our busiest month, but June is getting up there. So you can always go to our website. We have all kinds of events, author events. Book clubs are always free. You can just show up. You don't need to be a member. We have a dedicated queer book club that meets once a month and anyone is welcome to come and check that out. And it's a really Brooklyn Pride was this past weekend. It did rain, which was kind of a bummer, but we still had a great time.
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Alison Stewart
No raining on that parade.
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Leah Koch
It's, it's really a very joyful time at the store. And please make sure you talk to our booksellers when you're there because they are just so knowledgeable and they can really help you find anything.
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Alison Stewart
Sounds great. All right. The bookstore we're talking about is the Ripped Bodice. We're talking about the Park Slope location. And the co owner of that store is Leah Koch. Leah has been giving us her recommendations for LGBTQ romance books. And we appreciate all of your time today and all of the great recommendations.
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Leah Koch
Leah, thank you so much for having me.
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Alison Stewart
And we continue our discussion of books. Coming up is the discussion of a latest of the latest thriller by SA Cosby. It's called King of Ashes. It follows one man's attempt to extricate his family from the clutches of a local gang. We're going to talk with the author coming up, so don't go anywhere. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart.
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Tiffany Hansen
Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a Peabody Award and a Dupont Columbia Award, among others. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.