← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
Memoir and Biography Week: 'Marsha' by Tourmaline
00:21:10
a conversation about New York City LGBTQ+ rights activist Marsha P. Johnson with Tourmaline, author of a new biography.
Loading summary
Transcript57 lines
- [00:09]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. All week long, we're going to hear conversations with memorists and biographers, which happens to be one of the categories in our all of It Summer Reading Challenge. Today we'll learn more about a woman at the forefront of the gay rights movement. She was even rumored to have thrown the first brick at the Stonewall riots of 1969. And while the answer is unclear, revolutionary trans activist Marsha P. Johnson's actions stick out. This is Marsha recounting what happened that night to journalist and gay rights advocate Jim Kepner in 1988.
- [00:49]
Marsha P. Johnson
Well, people just started throwing over cars, and they were throwing bottles and they were throwing bricks, and they were throwing all kinds of things. Well, it all started with a demonstration. A lot of people started demonstrating outside of the bar and everything. And then the cops just tried to chase them off the street and away from the bar, and they refused to move. And so the cops started hitting them with sticks, and they just started hauling bottles and everything.
- [01:21]
Alison Stewart
She was a pioneer for LGBTQ rights. From protesting NYU administration's cancellation of gay dances in September of 1970, just one year after the Stonewall riots, to fighting for housing for homeless LGBTQ youth, to advocating for people with aids, Marsha was there for all of it, even the sit ins.
- [01:43]
Marsha P. Johnson
I used to, like, bring food and I used to sit in for a while. I mean, I couldn't sit there all day long and everything like that and see people starving and everything, waiting for food. I mean, and then, plus I was in all the, like, I was in the Angela Davis demonstrations. I mean, I get.
- [02:05]
Tourmaline
I hadn't heard of that one.
- [02:07]
Marsha P. Johnson
But when Angela Davis was arrested on and arrested by the federal government in New York, all the gay people went down and demonstrated in front of the Women's House of Detention to get Angela out of. Angela Davis out of jail. And we were all in that demonstration for a few days. I mean, in the gay movement, they think we only get into certain gay demonstrations, but it's not true. We get in all kinds of political demonstrations.
- [02:42]
Alison Stewart
An article in NewJersey.com says Tourmaline's book sparkles with Marsh's magnetism. The way she commanded attention, the attention, the signature flowers in her hair and her broad smile. We spoke with activist, filmmaker, and author Tourmaline after the book's release. A lot of people have probably heard the name Marsha P. Johnson, but might not know all the details of her advocacy. So I began our conversation by asking Tourmaline how She would interview, introduce her to someone.
- [03:13]
Tourmaline
I have been blessed to be studying, learning about and writing about Marcia for 20 years. I moved to New York when I was 19 in 2002, and shortly thereafter I went to the West Village, Christopher Street Piers, and I found my life there. I found my community of queer, trans, gender, non conforming, people of color. And in that space, everyone was kind of talking about this person, Marcia. Who is this Marcia? I wanted to know someone who always wore flowers in her ha. And I set about learning as much as I could about Marsha. So Marcia lived in Elizabeth, New Jersey. Her sister Jeannie and brother Bob and nephew Al still live there. Really beautiful family dedicated to preserving the, you know, the legacy of Marsha and the activism that, you know, her life inspired. She moved to Times Square. That was the place to be if you were a street queen, someone deviating from those gender norms in the, in the early 60s. And that's where she met Sylvia Rivera, who was 13 years old. Right. Sylvia left her home because of deep misunderstandings with her family and moved as a young person into Times Square and started hustling there. And I think that's really important now to name in this political climate. Like, do we really want to go back to a moment when young trans gender variant, gender non conforming people are, you know, leaving their homes at such a young age? And so I think a lot about that. And then in those Times Square rooms, they used to dream about the world they wanted, Right. They freedom dreamed, as Robin D.G. kelly calls it. And so then Marcia went downtown, traded the hustle of Times Square for the bustle of the West Village, and participated in the Stonewall uprisings of late June 1969. And yeah, so that's just a little bit about the early life of Marcia.
- [05:13]
Alison Stewart
You know, one thing is she grew up in this religious household. She was close to her family. She spent her teenage years going to an AME church. Yes, you're right. Marsha loved church, especially her conversations with God, and quoted her saying, I went to church every Sunday, honey, because I wanted to learn about Jesus. How did her religious and cultural upbringing.
- [05:37]
Jim Kepner
Shape her perspectives on the gay community?
- [05:39]
Tourmaline
Absolutely. So last week I was in Elizabeth with Marsha's family, who are just so, you know, enthusiastic about the world and knowing more about Marc Marcia and Jeanne Michaels, Marcia's sister, was talking about, you know, they grew up going to Mount Teeman Church in Elizabeth. And that's where Marcia started to perform in church plays and then also in choir, like Christmas caroling and going door to door and never hitting the note right, but the audience loving it. Whoever's opening that door is giving more money to Marcia because she knew how to perform for her audience. And in terms of spirituality, Marcia cultivated this real relationship with Go. And sometimes she would call that a voice in her head or a sense of intuition. But when she graduated high school, she made a deal with God. You know, she talks about that if, you know, God allowed her to graduate, she would go into the gay community and learn about what life was like in the gay community. Because in those days, as much as queer life happens all over the place, it was underground in Elizabeth. There were some queer clubs, Billy's Tavern, that, you know, there are other, you know, places where drag performances were happening. But Marcia was following God's plan and God's path, as she called it, and going into Times Square to learn more.
- [07:04]
Alison Stewart
Later in the book.
- [07:04]
Jim Kepner
You note that people use different terms then than they do today, and they identify themselves differently as today. I'm going to read this on page 79. It says, during the Stonewall rebellion, more.
- [07:15]
Alison Stewart
People were grouped into the wide umbrella of Queen, including people who would later identify as trans. After Stonewall, words like transvestite and queen continued to evolve, with some people identifying more with the term transsexual, which Marcia publicly identified as in 1971. And later, terms like transgender, non binary, gender, non conforming became more popular. How did she identify herself?
- [07:41]
Tourmaline
Yeah, so that's a really important point to name that terms evolve. In the early 1970s, Marsha was identifying as a pre op transsexual woman. She was using estrogen. She was using hormone replacement therapy, accessing gender affirming care. There's a really beautiful WBAI conversation where she's talking about the effects of estrogen on her body and how now she has a bust. And she says it's a handful. It's not a big handful, but it's a handful. And you can hear the joy in her voice because she was able to access care that she needed. And we're seeing last night the tax bill that's seeking to disallow trans and gender nonconforming Americans from accessing gender affirming care under Medicaid. And Marsha was fighting for gender affirming care in the 70s in the basement of New York University. And so to me, it's really poignant to listen to Marcia, not only about the terms and the words that she used for herself, but the demands for care and safety, safety for her entire community.
- [08:48]
Alison Stewart
Where did the inspiration Marsha p. Johnson come from?
- [08:51]
Jim Kepner
And what does the P stand for?
- [08:52]
Tourmaline
Yeah. So as hard and as harsh as conditions were. Right. If you were a trans and gender non conforming person and you were going outside in the 1960s, you could be arrested and put in jail. My chosen mother, Ms. Major, who is a black trans elder in the community, talks about, you know, just the. The reality of police violence for trans and gender non conforming people in that moment. And Marcia knew that. And at the same time, she was able to access a level of joy. That's why the book is Joy and Defiance. Right. And the P stands for Pay it no mind because it was so important for her to care about what she was putting her focus on. Sometimes it's really important to name all of those challenges that we're facing. And then other times it's really beautiful to just. Someone's given me some noise. I'm gonna pay it no mind. People don't understand my beauty. I'm gonna pay it no mind. You don't know how valuable I am. I'm gonna pay it no mind. And Marcia modeled that.
- [09:53]
Jim Kepner
We're discussing the new biography of activist Marsha P. Johnson with author, artist, filmmaker.
- [09:59]
Alison Stewart
And activist herself, Tourmaline.
- [10:01]
Jim Kepner
The book is titled the Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. You have explored her life through photography.
- [10:10]
Alison Stewart
Through photography, through film. What did you want to do or what different perspective did you want to.
- [10:16]
Jim Kepner
Take with the book?
- [10:18]
Tourmaline
So the book really allows for a depth of Marcia's voice to come through. Right. It was so important for me to share the fullness. A lot of people have seen a mural of Marcia or know that beautiful person always adorned in a flower crown, but they don't know about her time in Elizabeth, New Jersey, or the community she built, the community she built in Times Square or the activism that she did around gender affirming care and childcare in the 70s and HIV and AIDS epidemic care work. So to me, the book allowed me to. I'm a slow writer, so I was writing out this book. It's been five years of this project and 20 years of Marcia's life, but five years of working on this book, it really allowed me to go deep with those who know her and loved her and were deeply influenced by her and share how Marcia was a performer doing two performances a day with the hot peaches and the angels of light, just like she was an activist and just like she was moving through the street and beautiful adornment.
- [11:28]
Jim Kepner
You mentioned Sylvia Rivera, and people think Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera go hand in hand. But Sylvia was a lot younger. Tell us how they met and how was Marcia viewed by Sylvia in those days?
- [11:42]
Tourmaline
So Marcia met Sylvia when Sylvia was 13 years old. I just think that, again, it's so important to name how young so many of these trans and gender non conforming legends that we talk about were when they hit Times Square and hit the streets. Sylvia talks about Marcia plugging in the light for her right, as a mother figure. Marcia herself talks about how important it was when she met young people to mother them, to mentor them. And so, you know, Marcia was older. She had graduated high school, which a lot of trans and gender non conforming people at that time weren't able to do. And Marcia was, you know, the wise person, encouraging her fellow sisters, her siblings and street queens to dream beyond these harsh conditions and ask ourselves and each other, what kind of world do we want?
- [12:34]
Jim Kepner
Is that what you mean when you say she mentored people?
- [12:36]
Tourmaline
Exactly. She mentored people. And she, you know, there's a beautiful story. Augusto Machado, who is a legend and a legendary performer and a dear friend of mine, Augusto talks about how at a young age, Marcia brought Augusto to these department stores uptown, right? They used to hang out downtown Manhattan, and Marcia would say, we belong here. Just like other women are going around getting their makeup done. We deserve to be here. And they went from counter to counter in a place like Macy's, getting their makeup done for free and learning deeply how to have confidence in those spaces. Right. And how to know their beauty in those spaces as well.
- [13:17]
Jim Kepner
Sylvia and Marcia are notable for helping create the 1970s group Starr, which stands for Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. What was monumental about Starr?
- [13:29]
Tourmaline
Yeah, never before. Well, one Starr was happening in a moment when people were coming together in the midst of a thing and demanding more. They were deeply influenced by the Black Panther Party, and they wanted to have a group that was similar for street queens, for people who were living at the margins, who wanted to have housing. So they created housing together at the same time as doing political education. They would go to rallies, whether it was the Black Panther Party or the Young Lords or the gay liberation movement. They were showing up and showing out and saying, we deserve to be here in all our glory. And also, we're going to take care of each other. We're going to house and feed our community and really have a political vision that expands beyond this current moment.
- [14:14]
Jim Kepner
You can learn a lot in your book about the way the laws were set up at the time. In fact, in New York City, there was a rule that you had to wear at least three articles of clothing that corresponded to the gender assumed based on your sex at birth.
- [14:29]
Tourmaline
Yeah.
- [14:30]
Jim Kepner
How were these laws even enforced?
- [14:32]
Tourmaline
Well, the New York Police Department enforced them. And so Inspector Seymour Pine, who was leading the raid at Stonewall, was arresting trans people as evidence of Stonewall's illegality because they were dressed in clothes that matched how they understood themselves. Right. And so, like Ms. Major, I made a film with Ms. Major called the Personal Things, Just about that you could be literally arrested by the New York Police Department based on what you were wearing. And so it goes to show the power of beauty and adornment and the lengths that, you know, people who are enforcing morality will go to curtail that. Yeah.
- [15:13]
Jim Kepner
They were talking about, especially during big events like the World's Fair, there were specialized targeted forces. They would entrap people. Something called homosexual solicitation, which is basically flirting.
- [15:26]
Tourmaline
Exactly.
- [15:27]
Jim Kepner
Why did the scrutiny of LGBTQ people become more intense during the World's Fair?
- [15:33]
Tourmaline
Yeah. So my friend Augusto was present for these moments. Augusto Machado. And it was because New York wanted to be seen as a safe place, as a straight place, a place where people on the margins were, you know, swept away. I think this happens a lot at large events, whether it's the moving of houseless people during the Olympics. Like, there's a long history of displacement of people during these large events. And that was something that was happening then, for sure.
- [16:03]
Alison Stewart
You also want to put the light on the joy of Marsha P. Johnson and how she was like a magnetic performer.
- [16:12]
Tourmaline
That's right.
- [16:13]
Alison Stewart
One of her castmates said just being Marsha P. Johnson was enough magic to electrify the audience. Tell us where she performed. What was she like?
- [16:23]
Tourmaline
So she was a literal performer. She was doing two performances a day with the Hot Peaches. This group Jimmy Camiccia started, who lives downtown and has been so generous and was in my film Happy Birthday, Marcia, that me and Sasha Wurtzel directed. She was in the Angels of Light, which was a drag troupe that was formed out of the Cockettes, and she was performing on the street. So, you know, she was, you know, doing improvised fashion shows. She was. She was a legendary performer in this moment.
- [16:54]
Alison Stewart
How did she die?
- [16:56]
Tourmaline
So there's a lot of stories about how Marcia died. In July of 1992, her body was found in the Hudson River. There was a really important group that sprung up afterwards, justice for Marcia. My dear friend Randy Ricker was central to the demand that the. At the time, in 1992, the New York Police Department investigate her Death. Marsha was someone who navigated violence all the time. She lived with a bullet in her back for over 11 years. She was shot on the west side highway in 1981 by a taxi driver, a client. And so in 1970, she talked about how she was like a cat because so many people had tried to kill her. And so it is clear that interpersonal violence and systemic violence made up a really big part of Marsha's life and also neglect. Right. She was an HIV positive person and there was not and continues to be a lot of healthcare for, you know, people with AIDS and HIV positive people. So Marsha was navigating a lot of violence. It's not exactly clear how she ended up in the water that day, but it was really important to talk about all of the cooperative components that led to the loss of Marsha B. Johnson.
- [18:17]
Alison Stewart
In February of 2020, the East River State park was renamed Marsha P. Johnson State park to acknowledge her legacy. How have people chosen to remember her?
- [18:31]
Tourmaline
Yeah, I think people have chosen to remember her in so many beautiful ways, whether it's through her organizing and activism and feeding people, or in the beautiful groups, you know, Queen Jean's beautiful group of, you know, feeding our community, or whether it was through her performances. Right. Like Happy Birthday Marcia, the film I made with Sasha Wurzel that Matt Wolf, who you're going to have on later in the show, really supported and in the making of. And so there's just an abundance of ways that people can channel and live the legacy of Marsha P. Johnson right now.
- [19:08]
Alison Stewart
What do you hope people will remember about her and how do you hope.
- [19:14]
Jim Kepner
People will activate around her given these uncertain times?
- [19:19]
Tourmaline
Yeah, I hope that people remember that she lived a full, full life. Right. She not only was a deeply spiritual person in constant conversation with God, she was a caretaker. She was a performer, a leader in our community fighting for a childcare alongside housing and trans rights. And so I hope people feel inspired by that to turn up the volume of their whole life, especially when she was on stage and speaking directly to an audience. And in a moment when trans and gender non conforming people are navigating unprecedented attacks on our lives, I hope they tune to Marsha's legacy of knowing that these harsh conditions can inspire us to dream beyond them and that our dreams of being able to have safety and know our value are possible and we can organize around that and we can change the world.
- [20:10]
Jim Kepner
Tourmaline's book is titled the Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson. Tune in for more memoirs and biographies.
- [20:18]
Alison Stewart
This week you can read them as part of our summer reading challenge. You'll need to read one book in each of the five following categories. They are a classic you've been meaning.
- [20:26]
Jim Kepner
To get to, a book about or.
- [20:28]
Alison Stewart
Set in New York City, a memoir or biography, a recent debut novel and a book published in 2025. If you finish the challenge by the end of Labor Day weekend, you will.
- [20:39]
Jim Kepner
Get a special prize.
- [20:42]
Alison Stewart
Coming up on Wednesday's show, Lin Manuel.
- [20:45]
Jim Kepner
Miranda and Issa Davis. Tomorrow night they're hosting a listening party at Lincoln center for their concept album Warriors. But first hear them talk about how they were inspired by the 1979 cult movie. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you, and I will meet you back here tomorrow.
- [21:10]
Ira Flatow
This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.