Navajo Police Investigate Human Trafficking In “Dark Winds” New Season

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Navajo Police Investigate Human Trafficking In ‘Dark Winds’ New Season"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Publisher: WNYC
• Description: ALL OF IT is a show about culture and its consumers, aiming to engage thinkers, doers, makers, and creators about the what and why of their work. The show fosters a community that celebrates diverse perspectives and experiences, reflecting the vibrant culture of New York City.

Episode Details:

• Title: Navajo Police Investigate Human Trafficking In “Dark Winds” New Season
• Release Date: March 6, 2025
• Guests:
  • Zahn McClarn as Jo Leaphorn
  • Jessica Matin as Bernadette Manolito
  • Kiawah Gordon as Jim Chi

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Introduction to "Dark Winds"

Alison Stewart opens the episode by introducing the critically acclaimed TV series Dark Winds, a slow-burn thriller set in the 1970s Navajo country. Originally aired on AMC for two seasons and subsequently gaining popularity on Netflix, Dark Winds is returning for a third season on AMC. The show revolves around three distinct members of the Navajo Police: Lieutenant Jo Leaphorn (Zahn McClarn), Jim Chi (Kiawah Gordon), a former FBI agent, and Bernadette Manolito (Jessica Matin), a sharp and resilient officer.

Setting and Authenticity

Impact of the 1970s Setting: The absence of modern technology like CCTV, cell phones, and DNA testing in the 1970s Navajo country plays a crucial role in shaping the characters and their investigative methods. Zahn McClarn reflects on how the sacredness of the land and its cultural significance deepen his portrayal of Jo Leaphorn.

• Zahn McClarn [02:32]: “The land itself is to all tribes, to all nations, native nations. It's very sacred. It's the basis of our culture.”

Personal Connections to the Land: Kiawah Gordon shares her personal experience growing up on the Hualapai reservation, highlighting the authenticity brought to the show through genuine connections to the Navajo landscape.

• Kiawah Gordon [03:11]: “I grew up on the Hualapai reservation in Arizona... feeling the heat of the sun on your face and back, you know, sweating for real.”

Building Authenticity in Production

Commitment to Authentic Representation: Zahn McClarn emphasizes the show's dedication to authentic representation by employing cultural consultants and native writers, ensuring that Navajo culture is respected and accurately portrayed.

• Zahn McClarn [05:59]: “We employ some wonderful cultural consultants... our writing room is native, and we have employed Navajo writers as well.”

Native Talent Behind the Scenes: The production team prioritizes hiring native talent both in front of and behind the camera, fostering an environment of genuine cultural representation.

• Zahn McClarn [07:14]: “We are employing more native talent behind the scenes in front of the camera.”

Character Development and Relationships

Evolution of Jim Chi: Kiawah Gordon discusses Jim Chi's character development, highlighting his journey from assimilationist FBI agent to a deeply connected member of the Navajo community.

• Kiawah Gordon [04:50]: “Jim has to confront his demons head-on... he's trying to find his way back into the community.”

Dynamic Between Characters: The relationship between Jim Chi and Jo Leaphorn evolves into a father-son dynamic, fostering a strong bond that is both personal and professional.

• Kiawah Gordon [08:42]: “It's a nice dynamic, kind of like father and son and also, you know, boss and subordinate sometimes.”

Bernadette Manolito’s Strengths and Weaknesses: Jessica Matin explores Bernadette's resilience as a strong Navajo woman navigating a role traditionally held by men, and her challenges as she steps into unfamiliar territories.

• Jessica Matin [09:29]: “Her strengths are being resilient and being a strong Navajo woman... her weaknesses come from stepping outside of what she knows.”

Themes and Cultural Impact

Universal and Unique Themes: The show delves into universal themes such as love, relationships, family, and community, while also incorporating unique cultural elements that bring a fresh perspective to these topics.

• Zahn McClarn [10:18]: “We touch on universals. Love, relationships, family, community... with a unique cultural lean.”

Breaking Stereotypes: Dark Winds works to humanize and normalize Native characters by showcasing their vulnerabilities, love stories, and authentic experiences, moving away from stereotypical portrayals.

• Jessica Matin [14:20]: “Humanizing and normalizing... showing those scenes now is actually empowering and liberating.”

Season Three Highlights

Character Arcs and Plot Developments: Season three introduces significant changes, including Agent Sylvia Washington investigating Jo Leaphorn’s past decisions, pushing Leaphorn into moral gray areas.

• Zahn McClarn [12:37]: “Some of the choices that he made in season two... are going to definitely affect his life.”

New Challenges for Characters: Jim Chi immerses himself deeper into the Navajo community while dealing with personal losses and the ongoing mission to find Missing George.

• Kiawah Gordon [11:24]: “He's trying to be more immersed in the community... pivot and focus on something that you can control.”

Directorial Debut: Zahn McClarn announces his role as a director for season four, expressing both apprehension and excitement about taking on this new challenge.

• Zahn McClarn [17:56]: “AMC asked me if I was interested in directing and it scared the heck out of me and I said yes.”

Audience Engagement and Future Prospects

Renewal for Season Four: The show has been renewed for a fourth season, with Zahn McClarn stepping into the role of director, promising continued growth and deeper exploration of characters.

• Kiawah Gordon [17:51]: “Yes, it has been renewed for season four.”

Encouragement to Watch: The hosts and guests encourage listeners to watch all seasons available on Netflix and tune in to the new season airing on AMC, highlighting key moments to look out for.

• Zahn McClarn [16:50]: “Watch the gray areas that moral gray areas that Joe has to deal with this season.”

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Conclusion: This episode of All Of It provides an in-depth exploration of the TV series Dark Winds, highlighting its cultural significance, commitment to authenticity, and complex character development. Through engaging discussions with the main actors, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of what makes the show a standout in contemporary television. The episode underscores the importance of diverse storytelling and its impact on breaking stereotypes, making Dark Winds a must-watch for fans and new audiences alike.

Notable Quotes:

• Zahn McClarn [05:59]: “We are employing more native talent behind the scenes in front of the camera.”
• Jessica Matin [14:20]: “Humanizing and normalizing... showing those scenes now is actually empowering and liberating.”
• Kiawah Gordon [11:24]: “He's trying to be more immersed in the community... pivot and focus on something that you can control.”

Recommendations: Listeners are encouraged to catch up on previous seasons of Dark Winds on Netflix and watch the upcoming third season on AMC to experience the evolving narratives and deep cultural insights discussed in this episode.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. Coming up on the show today, musician and artist Julian Lennon. His new exhibition of photographs opens today at the Freeman Gallery in Chelsea. He joins us in studio to talk about it. Actor Betty Gilpin is here to talk about her turn as the director deranged wife of President Lincoln in the hilarious Broadway play O Mary. And we'll learn about the novel Mutual Interests, which follows three queer would be business moguls in late Gilded Age New York. That is our plan. So let's get things started with dark winds. The TV series Dark, a slight slow burn thriller set in 1970s Navajo country, has been critically acclaimed on AMC network for two seasons. Recently it was added to Netflix and it took on a second life, becoming a hit on the streamer last fall. This Sunday, the series returns to AMC for a third season. The show follows three very different members of the Navajo police. Lieutenant Leaphorn, a serious man with a big heart Jim Chee, a former FBI guy who has seen the light and the super sharp Bernadette Manoletto. But season three has some changes in store. By the way, Dark Winds has a perfect score on Rotten Tomatoes, as in 100%. Joining us now is Zahn McLaren, who plays Jo Leaphorn. Hi.

[Zahn McClarn]

Hello.

[Alison Stewart]

And also Jessica Matin, who plays Bernadette Manolito. Hi.

[Jessica Matin]

Hi.

[Alison Stewart]

And Kiawah Gordon, who plays Jim Chi. Hi.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Kiyua.

[Zahn McClarn]

Hi.

[Kiyu]

Hi.

[Alison Stewart]

So Zahn, this story takes place in the 70s. No CCTV, no cell phones, no DNA. The area is so remote, sometimes you have to ride your horses in. How does the period that this is set in help you with your character?

[Zahn McClarn]

Well, first off, you know, the land itself is to all tribes, to all nations, native nations. It's very sacred. It's the basis of our culture. So that adds quite an element in Dark Winds being set on the Navajo reservation, it's extremely important for, for that to be to be seen because it's such a big part of the culture, has to be seen within our TV show. As an actor being out in those elements, you know, it helps me form my character Quite a bit.

[Alison Stewart]

So how about you, Kiyu? How does it. The setting?

[Kiyu]

I mean, it's everything. Cause, you know, I grew up on the Hualapai reservation in Arizona, and it's kind of. The landscape's pretty close to the Navajos. We both share the Grand Canyon. We're not really sharing it. We're stewards of the Grand Canyon. We're stewards of the land. So it's nice to be able to feel the heat of the sun on your face and back, you know, sweating for real. You're not in a green screen studio.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Jessica, you've been friends with Kiwa for.

[Kiawah Gordon]

A long time before the show?

[Jessica Matin]

Yes, yes, Actually, both Zahn and Kiowa, but we all previously met on another TV show that we were all doing together. And it was actually Jason Momoa that introduced me to Zahn and Kiowa, and they came on our show back then, that was like, what, nine, ten years ago now. And it's very typical in Indian country that we all stay in touch with one another. And whenever we go to a different city or country, we know there's almost like you could just call someone up and be like, hey, there's another native in town. Come out for coffee. Come out. Come eat lunch. So that's what I did with Kiowa when I moved to Los Angeles. And, yeah, we became like, you know, siblings as we are. Everyone thinks we're siblings or girlfriend or boyfriend. Neither. We're neither.

[Kiyu]

We're a secret. Third thing.

[Zahn McClarn]

I'm the dad.

[Jessica Matin]

Uncle Joe.

[Kiyu]

Uncle Joe.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Uncle Joe.

[Kiyu]

I have an Uncle Joe.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I have. Aw, that's sweet. Kylie, your character has had to make some significant changes in how he thinks over the seasons. What has been the most significant change that he's had to make?

[Kiyu]

I think stripping away his belief that, you know, going to the FBI and graduating from Berkeley, I think he kind of had this idea that just assimilation was the way to go, to not be in pain anymore, to get past our shared traumas and generational traumas. And so I think in season two, he kind of has that departure, and he's a PI and he's trying to find his way back into the community, the Navajo community. And in season three, you know, he's back on the NTP with Leaphorn, and that kind of gives him a sense of belonging more than he's ever had in his life. And, you know, now he's confronted with these demons that have been. Been thrust to the past. You know, he's. He's ran from it. Now he has to really confront it head on. And it's. It's a real significant jump for Jim, and you get to see that this season.

[Alison Stewart]

Zahn, the series is based loosely on the late Tony Hillerman's books. He wasn't an indigenous person, but reportedly he worked really hard to make his books authentic. How does the show build on that quest for authenticity?

[Zahn McClarn]

Well, authenticity is extremely important to us, to represent the Navajo people, their culture, in an accurate way. Way, and to respect it. So we employ some wonderful cultural consultants, Jennifer Wheeler and Manny Wheeler, and they are involved from the script writing to the props to the hair, to the wardrobe. We have a half. Our writing room is native, and we have employed Navajo writers as well in the writing room. So we're doing things that, you know, only a few other TV shows have done in the past few decades, and another one was Reservation Dogs and Rutherford Falls, those two shows. So authenticity is extremely important, not just to me and as an EP on the show, but to the whole show. We've got crew that are native, and it's one of the things I'm most proud of for the show is that we are employing more native talent behind the scenes in front of the camera. So as well with amc, you know, our network, that authenticity is very important to us.

[Kiawah Gordon]

You've been in the business for a while.

[Zahn McClarn]

Yeah, but. Okay. We don't represent the Navajo culture, though. To learn more about the Navajo culture, you're going to have to be with the culture and embed yourself in. So we're not spokespeople for their culture. We're just actors.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Appreciate your point.

[Zahn McClarn]

We respect it very much.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I'm wondering about you as an actor who's been in the business for a while.

[Zahn McClarn]

Yeah.

[Kiawah Gordon]

What does a role need for you to sign on?

[Zahn McClarn]

Well, this one was pretty easy for me. We have George R. Martin and Robert Redford as EPs on the show and a close friend of mine who I've known for a few decades, Chris Eyre, who's one of our producer directors. And it was pretty easy for me to sign on when they asked. I mean, to work with legends like that and Tino Elmo. We've got a wonderful showrunner, John Worth, and line producer Jim Chore, that just got a great team. And of course, we've got these two wonderful human beings, so it was pretty easy decision for me.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I'm speaking with the lead actors, Zane McLaren, Kaia Gordon and Jessica Matin. We're talking about Dark Winds, a police drama set in 1970s Navajo country. So Kiwa Li, porn and Chi Their relationship has evolved over these seasons. I'm only on season one.

[Zahn McClarn]

Have to wait for season two.

[Kiawah Gordon]

How would you describe how they have evolved?

[Kiyu]

Well, you know, I was a little wet behind the years coming in season one. And, you know, Leaphorn just really.

[Kiawah Gordon]

He got your number, right?

[Kiyu]

Yeah, he figured it out before I was, like, even letting on that I was, you know, a fed. So it's cool to see how he kind of. He overlooks that now and he's like, you know what? I need you to step up, Jim. I need you to be my right hand. I need you to, you know, be the. Be the dog. Be the dog that you are.

[Zahn McClarn]

My new son.

[Kiyu]

Yeah, My new son.

[Jessica Matin]

Yeah.

[Kiyu]

My surrogate son. So it's a nice dynamic, kind of like father and son and also, you know, boss and subordinate sometimes, you know, we like to role play.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you think are Bernadette's strengths and what are her weaknesses?

[Jessica Matin]

Oh, that's a good question. I think her strengths are being resilient and being a strong Navajo woman amongst. In a role that, historically speaking, was mostly a man's job and doing it back in the 1970s and incorporating that. It's big in terms of weaknesses. I think that's actually an interesting question to be revealed in season three.

[Alison Stewart]

She's got a new job.

[Jessica Matin]

Yeah. She's out of her element. And, you know, true to form, a lot of natives that leave the reserve for the first time really are truly out of their element. It's a different jurisdiction. It's a completely different way of living life. So you get to see a lot of her weaknesses, so to speak, just merely from stepping outside of what she knows.

[Alison Stewart]

Som, what are some of the themes that people can expect to see in season three?

[Zahn McClarn]

I think, you know, like any television show, we touch on universals. Love, relationships, family, community, et cetera. It's just we have a bit of a unique cultural lean to it.

[Alison Stewart]

On Dark Winds, Kai was Jim Chi started off the series thinking maybe he was a little superior, you know, a little more educated. Even though Leaphorn went to college.

[Kiyu]

ASUI call it a college.

[Zahn McClarn]

That was a line. That's a line. Yeah, that's a line.

[Kiyu]

So funny. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Arizona.

[Zahn McClarn]

She's like, yeah, how do you remember that?

[Kiyu]

I lived in Tempe because, man, it's my job. My brother went to ASU business school, so, you know, I'm a Sun Devil fan. I play the. There's a video game for ncaa and that's. My team is asu All Right. Anyway. Anyways, let's get back to it.

[Alison Stewart]

My question was, how would you describe where he is this season?

[Kiyu]

Where I'm at, you know, he's. He's turned the page. He's. He's not just a lone wolf anymore. He's kind of found himself back in the fold, where he kind of flourishes now with. With Leaph as his. His point man. You know, he tells me, you know, where to go. And I think I'm. I'm also not over the. The sort of loss of Bernadette going to the border. And, you know, you see that in the season, and I'm just kind of not over it. I'm pining for her, but I still have a job to do. I have to find Missing George, and I have to deal with my own past, you know, Shorty Bowlegs. And I think we see him. He's trying to be more immersed in the community for the Navajo, and he's gonna throw himself into the job because, you know, that's how you get over the traumas, I think, is just, you know, pivot and focus on something that you can control.

[Alison Stewart]

Zahn, your character is pushed to a point where he sort of departs from his sort of stoic and how principled he is.

[Kiawah Gordon]

How does that come back to haunt him?

[Zahn McClarn]

Lot comes back to haunt Joe Leaphorn in season three. You know, some of the choices that he made in season two, at the end of season two, are going to definitely affect his life. And he's got some new people looking into some of those decisions from season two.

[Kiawah Gordon]

You want to share who it is?

[Zahn McClarn]

Well, it's Agent Sylvia Washington from Washington.

[Kiyu]

Jenna Elfman.

[Zahn McClarn]

Wonderful. Jenna Elfman. So he's dealing. You know, he's testing some. Some areas. His moral compass is a little bit off. There's some gray areas going on this season where some of those decisions may cost him everything. So the stakes are pretty high this season for Joe.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I'm curious for you, seeing how successful the series has been, especially on Netflix. First of all, why do you think it's been so successful on Netflix?

[Zahn McClarn]

I. You know, I kind of touched on it before. I think the cultural. Unique. Cultural lean is. Is pretty. It's unique. And people don't see these kinds of stories being told on television, and we're finally kind of chipping away on all those stereotypes and tropes, and people are like, oh, wow, we're humanizing and normalizing. What was. What was you said the other day? Normalize and humanize? I think it was.

[Jessica Matin]

It's just like, you know, the way it's Tennessee Williams saying, rewrite what we know. So I feel like we are all victims to that, even within our Native culture and Native storytelling in itself. So it's like part of breaking those stereotypes is just us playing human beings and humanizing that overall. Humanizing, yeah.

[Kiawah Gordon]

That's so interesting. Sometimes when you're really specific, it sometimes speaks to the universal.

[Jessica Matin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kiawah Gordon]

You know what I mean? You can get really specific about a culture, about a relationship, but it speaks to everybody.

[Zahn McClarn]

Yeah.

[Jessica Matin]

We were talking about this yesterday on another show which was even showing sex scenes and love scenes with indigenous people is so rare. So that's something that, you know, without giving anything away, but tapping more into our characters, love stories and, you know, sexuality and, you know, historically speaking, like, I've been working this business for 15 years now, and all the shows I've done previously, I've always kind of strayed away from playing characters if they were indigenous, showing that the sexual side, because we always had that Pocahontas thing, that trope to deal with. So I was always against over sexualizing the characters. But I was like, you know, what part of innovating and moving our people forward and as Zahn said, humanizing that and normalizing it is actually showing those scenes now. And it turned out to be extremely empowering and liberating.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm curious about your character. She sort of gets a little bit.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Of a lesson In White justice vs Indian justice in her new role. Tell us a little bit about her new job.

[Jessica Matin]

Yeah, I guess that goes with, you know, the tribal jurisdiction being very different from a municipal jurisdiction or a non native jurisdiction, so to speak, when it comes to policing. And that, that is part and part the white way and the Indian way. So it's just her stepping into an area that she's unfamiliar with, unfamiliar territory, and really having to be a little less bold, knowing that she's the new kid on the block, so to speak, when she's on the. She's in on the Border Patrol this season. So I guess I hope that answers your question. Yeah, close enough.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I'm speaking with actors on McLaren, Kiowa Gordon and Jessica Matin from the series Dark Winds. What is a moment for all of you in this series, especially for fans.

[Alison Stewart]

Because we've been playing a little bit.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Loose because some people haven't caught up. I haven't caught up.

[Kiyu]

Call yourself out.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I'm being honest. What is something for fans of the show who are going to be tuning in this Sunday on amc that you would really like them to pay attention to about your character. This season will go with you. Kiowa.

[Kiyu]

Pay attention to glass case in the little elementary school or middle school. You'll see, you'll see a picture of a young Chi who beat Billy Mills, Olympian Billy Mills in a track meet.

[Kiawah Gordon]

All right, so pay attention to that.

[Zahn McClarn]

As far as my character, just watching the gray areas that moral gray areas that Joe has to deal with this season. Yeah. Okay.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I know what they are, but okay, okay.

[Jessica Matin]

And how about for you, Bernadette seeing a side of tapping into her vulnerability and a big shout out to kind of one of the bad guys. Who's someone I really, really respect as a veteran actor in this biz too. So that's up.

[Zahn McClarn]

Alex. No, not Alex.

[Jessica Matin]

No offense.

[Zahn McClarn]

I love Alex. Raul.

[Jessica Matin]

Raul Trujill.

[Zahn McClarn]

Zero Wolf.

[Kiawah Gordon]

I read that it has been renewed for season four. Is that true?

[Kiyu]

Yes.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Okay, good. And I understand you'll directing. You're doing directing. Is that happening?

[Zahn McClarn]

Yes.

[Kiawah Gordon]

On.

[Zahn McClarn]

AMC asked me if I was interested in directing and it scared the heck out of me and I said yes. So, yes, I will be directing for the first time in my career and I've got a great team that are gonna support me.

[Kiawah Gordon]

So that's, that's great. That's tough though. Directors, all they have to do is make decisions constantly.

[Zahn McClarn]

Yeah. And be the number one on the TV show. It's going to be, it's going to be a handful. But again, I have a great team to support me and we'll get through it. And I'm looking forward to it.

[Kiyu]

Me too.

[Kiawah Gordon]

Everybody should watch all seasons of Dark Winds, first and second. They're on Netflix. The third will debut this weekend on AMC. My guests have been Zaha McLaren, Kiowa Garden and Jessica Matt. And thank you so much for coming to the studio.

[Jessica Matin]

Nice to see you.

[Zahn McClarn]

Appreciate it. Thank you.

[Kiyu]

Have a great day, y'all.

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