← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
New Novel Explores the Inner Lives of Hollywood Power Agents
00:22:49
Author Elaine Goldsmith-Thomas talks about her new novel 'Climbing in Heels.'
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- [00:00]
Alison Stewart
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
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Alison Stewart
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
State law not available in all states. Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
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Alison Stewart
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thanks for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here on today's Show. Singer songwriter Uwa De is here. She'll perform live in WNYC Studio 5. She's setting up right now. We'll also keep the Poetry Month vibes going with award winning poet Robin Walter. That is our plan. So let's get this started with the new novel Climbing in Heels. The entertainment business has always been known as cutthroat. And as we find out in the new novel by a major Hollywood player, it's even harder as a woman. Set in what the author calls the wild wild west of the sex and Coke fueled 80s, the novel Climbing in Heels tells the story of three women who rise through the ranks of the top entertainment agencies. It's the debut of someone who knows this world well. Elaine Goldsmith Thomas is a former SVP at the William Morris Agency and icm. She left to become a film producer making movies like Hustlers and Made Manhattan with her producing partner and pal Jennifer Lopez. Elaine joins me in the studio. Welcome to the show.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Thanks, Alison. So happy to be here.
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Alison Stewart
It is so nice to see you. This book in many ways is an ode to women breaking barriers in this business. What inspired you to write it?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
You know, whenever I've been interviewed, people will say, how did you do it? And it's only when I look back that I realize how treacherous the climb. Right. Every generation is met with their own terrain. And the terrain in the 80s when I started as a secretary, you know, I like to say I was running the maze in a mousetrap where I wasn't the cheese that they wanted. So I had to figure out a different way in. And many women had to. Certainly the women in my book, they no wasn't an option. I guess if there was an overlap, it was that it wasn't about quitting. You just had to figure out another way. You had to turn the no into a yes. You had to pivot. Maybe that's the motto, if there is one in life. Because every generation has their own challenges in the 80s, they were certainly unique. There was a lot of. I don't know. Am I allowed to say blow and blow jobs? You can, but there was a lot of barriers for women who wanted a seat at a table where they were expected to serve.
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Alison Stewart
Why did you decide to write a novel rather than a memoir? I would have read your memoir.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Thank you. Because I don't think my memoir would have been as interesting. I was able to turn left. I was able to sort of combine all of these stories that I had heard and characters that I had imagined. I had imagined the backstory of a lot of them. And as you know, in the book, it's really. It's three women who started secretaries, but it's really five women. And I go back, in some cases to the 30s, to how each woman had to climb the terrain of her own generation. And I loved going back to the 50s and 60s and 70s and watching these women find their way all to intersect at the most famous talent agency in the world. And all of them wanted to sustain. I guess for all of them, it wasn't kill or be killed. It was kill or become irrelevant. And they didn't want to become irrelevant.
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Alison Stewart
Why not?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Yeah, why not?
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Alison Stewart
Why didn't they want to become irrelevant?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
It mattered. I think that all of them were formed and informed by mothers that either repelled them or they kept trying to prove themselves to their mothers. Are we good enough? Living out their mother's dreams. So their mothers became very much their fuel and their kryptonite.
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Alison Stewart
Want to circle back to the 80s?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Yeah.
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Alison Stewart
Why did you set it in the 80s?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, I mean, it's what I knew. It's when I started and I. And it was, you know, there were big shoulders and big hair and big phones and little other things. The other things weren't so big, but big egos, and the egos were the men. And, you know, when I started, it was the M A L E room. No women allowed. If you were a secretary, even if you had graduated college, I'd gone to Berkeley and to UC Santa Barbara. It didn't matter. You had to say you wanted to be a secretary because if you had too much ambition, then you wanted their job. And so I had to figure out a way to get ahead without telling them that I wanted to. I had to show them how good I was and mow down anyone who stood in my way, I guess.
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Alison Stewart
Did you have these characters in mind? Did they come to you or did you develop them?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, I guess Beanie is very similar to me. She is not me. As I said, my dear friend Kevin Uvaines loved to say, oh, I was reading that part where so and so is having sex with so and so when you walk in the room. And I said, it's not me, but she's very much like me. Beanie lived in Pacoima, but her mother called it Arlida. She moved to Sepulveda, but her mother called it Northridge. Beanie never knew where she lived. She just knew it wasn't good enough. And she knew that image was more important than truth.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah, she's got trouble with her weight.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, yeah. And I think food became her narcotizer when she felt like she wasn't enough. And she carried that through her life. Ella was based on a woman I worked with. Again, I turned left, but I took the essence of her a woman named J.J. harris, God rest her soul, who was in accounting and became friendly with Kevin Costner and became his agent when much more powerful agents weren't chosen. And Kevin allowed her to rise and inadvertently allowed me to.
- [06:59]
Alison Stewart
Did you have to pick up the phone and say, kevin, hi, it's Elaine. Can I use your name in my book?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
No. So, Kevin, if you hear this, you're in my book in the nicest way. No, because it's a work of fiction and I season it with people who were superstars at the time. And Kevin was. Kevin was honest. He had a great deal of integrity and he allowed people to shine regardless of their titles. And I wanted to pay homage to that generosity.
- [07:26]
Alison Stewart
I'm joined by Elaine Goldsmith Thomas. She is an author. Now we're talking about her debut novel, Climbing in Heels, about three women who become big, powerful Hollywood brokers. Beanie. Let's go back to Beanie. Why did Beanie want to pursue a job at the agency?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, Beanie, like, I guess, me like Beanie. I had a boyfriend, pseudo boyfriend. And I tried to, you know, he wanted to be an actor, he needed an agent, and I wanted to be the instrument of his success. Whatever he needed, I'd get him. You like this girl? Let me meet her. It was horrible. When I think of my low self conscious on wnyc.
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Alison Stewart
I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Elaine Goldsmith Thomas talking about Beanie's boyfriend, Fish. In the book, it related to your personal story?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
It did relate to my personal story. And Fish is a fictional version of somebody I liked. And he wanted an agent and I spent a summer before college getting him an agent. And I got a list of all the franchised agents in la and I Went up and down Hollywood Boulevard until I could finally get somebody's attention. And I jumped up and I said, you know, can I see you for 10 minutes? What's it gonna cost you? And the guy said, 10 minutes.
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Alison Stewart
That's exactly what you wrote in the book.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
And it was exactly true. And I said to him, if you don't do this, you're gonna drive down Sunset Boulevard, you're gonna see his face, and you're gonna say, I could have signed him. And look, he ended up meeting him. He ended up signing him. And this version of Phish in reality got a role on Chips. He got a semi regular role on Happy Days. He was. He was off. I envisioned him sort of the Mount Rushmore hall of Fame, but he dumped me. And it's funny, you know, the thing is that the thing that causes you sometimes the most pain puts you on the path where you need to be. Because had I not had that experience, I wouldn't have known the thrill of getting the yes. Because when that agent said yes to me, it changed my life. I felt like I had value. And I also understood that when you believe in something so passionately, that it's just about the sell. And I was good. So it led me inadvertently to becoming an agent, and it led Beanie to becoming an agent as well.
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Alison Stewart
Did you keep diaries at this time? Because the way you recited that was just. Was exactly like the book.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, I wrote the book. That's true. No, I.
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Alison Stewart
But you have those memories.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
I have those memories in my head so clearly. And the fact that this guy ends up calling me, like, two years later and saying all the things I wished he had said to me once upon a time, but it just didn't feel the same.
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Alison Stewart
Alison, you know, Beanie aspires to be like a woman in the book who's called Sheila Day.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
A Hollywood player. What are the qualities that Sheila has that Beanie aspires to?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Sheila is based on a woman I loved and knew, a legendary woman, rest her soul. Sue Mankers. And Sheila Day is based on her. And Sheila was smart and cutting and witty, and so was Sue. And deeply threatened by the next generation. I don't know if sue was, but Sheila is. And she tries to charm Beanie and Ella. And while she charms Beanie, Ella and she have a lot of friction. And it becomes. It ends up defining the trajectory for all three characters.
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Alison Stewart
When you talk about Ella, Ella's from a Southern family. She's kind of a black sheep in that family, but she landed the secretarial job. What qualities does Ella have that will make her successful in this field?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Ella doesn't care about rules. And you can't care about rules again when you're breaking in, when you've got so many barriers that say no. So she wears her skirts too short, she bleaches her hair too blonde. She dates the movie stars and has a good old time with them. Ella is the child of an ex debutante who believed that separate was equal. So she rebelled against everything that was strict and she was perfect for Hollywood.
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Alison Stewart
We're gonna get you to read a little bit of your book, okay? Is this a good place to start?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
I think so.
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Alison Stewart
I think so. Yeah. This is chapter something something something. It's called the Polo Lounge.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
No, it's called the Polio Lounge.
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Alison Stewart
Polio Lounge. Oh, yes.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Yes. Okay. This is when Ella and Beanie have become agents and Sheila Day is trying to make nice to them. Okay, it's the Polio Lounge. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Ella Gaddy. Upon reflection, 1987, the Polo Lounge was located inside the Beverly Hills Hotel and decorated in shades of pink and green with tropical wallpaper and little lamps on horseshoe t. There were unwritten rules when it came to where one was seated. The best tables outside on the terrace, flanked with bougainvillea, honeysuckle and night blooming jasmine, were tucked away to allow privacy, but visible enough to leave an impression. Sheila Day's table was on the southwest corner booth, allowing unobstructed views both coming and going. She was nervous and excited for this lunch. It wasn't just about the perception of girl power. She needed these women on her side. The world was not kind to women who reinvented, especially women in their 50s. But Sheila was far from throwing in the towel. That seat on the board meant millions, and it was only a few years away. She wasn't going to let some long legged shiksa get the best of her. Enough noise had been made about the promotions that you could feel the energy in the room. When the two former secretaries were escorted onto the outside terrace where Sheila Day awaited them, what became instantly clear, to Ella at least, was the strategy behind this simple lunch. It wasn't so much about a truce as it was about a public statement and a public display. Sheila Day wanted to put to rest any gossip that she had been bested, showing the industry that she not only supported these young female agents, but would mentor them. Two more have broken through, Sheila said to Dawn Steele, who stopped by their table to offer congratulations. Steel the head of Paramount, who was rumored to be headed to Columbia, was the first woman to run a major studio. As Sheila introduced Ella and Beanie, Ella realized that the choice of restaurant, the day and the time had all been carefully choreographed. The room that day was packed with heavyweights producers, actors and studio executives all stopping by Sheila's table to pay homage. A few months back, people started calling this place the polio lounge, Sheila confided, scanning the surroundings like they were her domain. It was filled with Altacockers on their second martinis and third wives. But today, she said expansively, taking credit it for the crowd, we kicked it up a notch. She's using this lunch to her advantage, Ella thought as Sheila continued her outward display of love. My two female secret weapons, she said to Julia Phillips, the first female producer to win an Academy Award for Best Picture. Who would have thought I was a feminist, she said, positioning herself between her two proteges. More like an opportunist, Ella thought, watching her in action. But the thing about Sheila that was undeniable was her wit and her absolute charm.
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Alison Stewart
That's Elaine Goldsmith Thomas reading from her book Climbing in Heels. Do we have a frenemy situation going on here with Ella and Beanie and Sheila?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, you have a triad. You have a triangle where Sheila's gonna try to correct some mistakes she's made as these secretaries tried to rise. But she's gonna get in her own way as she does in her career. We all have patterns, right? And sometimes it's hard to change them.
- [15:38]
Alison Stewart
We'll have more with Elaine Goldsmith Thomas. Her book is called Climbing in Heels. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm joined by Elaine Goldsmith Thomas. We're speaking about her debut novel, Climbing in Heels, about three women who become Hollywood power broker. Something that Elaine knows a little bit about. We didn't talk about Mercedes Baxter. She was Millicent, who learns very early on. Well, her sister isn't really her sister. She kind of learns the value of having a patron, shall we say? Why do you think this is the route for her?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Listen, as I said, this is about much of who we are is about where we came from. And Mercedes learns early on that her sister, who is 14 years her senior, is actually her mother. And she watches as Lucille, her sister mother leverages opportunities and men to find a patron. She calls it finding zeros and zeros, Lucille tells her, will protect them. And that is the course that Mercedes has to follow. She gets abandoned, actually, by her sister Mother. Because she could become a liability. And so she has to leverage the money, her moneyed friends, the parents and the parents, friends of her moneyed friends, and she finds her own zeros and ends up finding her way into Hollywood. Now her path is different. She doesn't become an agent. She takes the skills she learned as a young woman and she begins climbing the way to her own security through the executive ranks.
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Alison Stewart
It's interesting. These three women, Mercedes, Ella, Beanie, they're very different. What do they have in common?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
I guess their climb. I guess that the three of them want in and they want in a way that they have to create their own lanes. None of them take the traditional path. For Ella, it's pure rebellion. It's dressing wrong, it's speaking too wrong, it's breaking rules. For Beanie, it's tenacity. It's outwitting out, strategizing, tap dancing her way, you know, Beanie lies to become a secretary, she gets a job as a file clerk. To become a secretary. She goes up to an agent who's looking for a secretary with long legs and no last name. She says, you need me. He says, why would I want you? She says, because I know Nicholas Cage now. Does she know him? No. So now she has to set about and get to know him. She sets goals for herself and then she meets those goals. And then Mercedes, well, she gets in because it's the only way she knows how. I guess it's just about getting the yes for all three of these women when no was the only answer they had for you.
- [19:07]
Alison Stewart
Did you find yourself in that position of having to get the yes when you were a young agent, a young secretary?
- [19:14]
Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
I found myself in that position my whole life. Yes meant love, yes meant value. Yes meant, you know, and it's great. Professionally, personally, it sucks. But, you know, it was always. It was a game with my father, you know, he taught me. He was a salesman. And again, it's not a false sense of passion. You find the passion, and if it's something you want, and I wanted the yes very badly, you find a way through.
- [19:50]
Alison Stewart
This takes place much before the MeToo movement. How do you feel that has changed in Hollywood? And what else would you like to see happen as a result of the MeToo movement?
- [20:01]
Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
I mean, the MeToo movement is extraordinary. And it's not just changed Hollywood, it's changed the world. Look, I think it's kind of unfair to look back at the 80s through the prism of 2025, because, you know, it was pretty outrageous, the things that people got away with. I don't know what I'm allowed to say on the radio, so I won't say any of it. But it was pretty outrageous.
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Alison Stewart
All the things you want to say, you can't say.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, so imagine it. And me too. They finally put their foot down, and God bless them. I hope the world doesn't overcorrect, because then it's like a boomerang effect. But that doesn't mean it's still not difficult. It doesn't mean that there still aren't a cabal of bullies. It just means that sometimes they're quieter.
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Alison Stewart
What did you learn about yourself from writing this book?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
See, I've always been a writer, but because of my trajectory, I realized I was also good at being an agent and I was also good at being a producer. I think that we can do more than one thing, Alison. You know, they say you only live once, but that's not true. You only die once. You live every day. And so if you want to do something more, if you want to, Alison Stewart, write a script, you should be doing it. The only thing stopping you is you. And what I learned was coming out, if you will, as a writer makes me a better producer. It doesn't lessen me. I've had people and it's frightening. I'm still scared. Go, well, how are you gonna produce this if you're writing the show? Because the book has been optioned by Darren Starr to be a series. We've got a straight to series order on Peacock. And so people are saying, well, how are you gonna do both? And I say, watch me.
- [21:58]
Alison Stewart
Writing's a little harder, though. I think writing, you sort of reveal a little more of yourself than producing or being an agent.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Oh, well, all of this has been hard. Are you kidding? I mean, I'm the girl behind the girl. I'm not the person up front. So it's all so unnerving. I walked out of something yesterday and there were paparazzi there. For me, it was just mind blowing and awful.
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Alison Stewart
That is hard.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Yeah, that is hard.
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Alison Stewart
To live life in the public.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Well, I mean, I, you know, I'm the person always saying to the public, figures I stand beside, oh, who cares? And of course, now the shoe, the heel is on the other foot. Or in my case, the wide toe box shoe is on the other foot.
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Alison Stewart
What made you a good agent?
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
That I so believed in the people that I represented. And I'm a good architect. And I'm still. And I'm still an agent. You never stop being anything but. I guess if I have anything to say to your listeners is you can do more than one thing and you can do it well.
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Alison Stewart
I think young women understand that a little better than women our age.
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Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
I hope so. And thank you for saying I'm your age.
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Alison Stewart
My guest has been Elaine Goldsmith Thomas. The name of the novel is Climbing in Heels. Thanks for coming to the studio.
- [23:15]
Elaine Goldsmith Thomas
Thanks, Alison. Really nice seeing you.
- [23:19]
Alison Stewart
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