New York Artist David Wojnarowicz Saw Himself in Arthur Rimbaud

Summary

Podcast Summary: "New York Artist David Wojnarowicz Saw Himself in Arthur Rimbaud"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Antonio Sergio Bessa (Curator)
Date: October 22, 2025
Duration of summarized content: Approximately 00:09 – 15:02

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the artist David Wojnarowicz, focusing on his photographic series featuring friends disguised as the poet Arthur Rimbaud in various New York locales. Host Alison Stewart speaks with curator Antonio Sergio Bessa about the new exhibition "David Arthur Rimbaud in New York" at the Leslie Lohman Gallery and its accompanying hardcover book. The conversation dives into Wojnarowicz's multifaceted artistry, his connection to Rimbaud, and how his work captured marginalized New York life in the late 1970s.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

David Wojnarowicz's Artistic Mediums and Photography

• Wojnarowicz worked across multiple forms: painting, performance art, music, sculpture, and photography.
• Photography’s specific role:
  • Antonio describes the Rimbaud photograph series as a “bridge” from Wojnarowicz’s writing to visual arts.
  • The series predates Wojnarowicz’s friendship with influential photographer Peter Hujar.
• Early photographic evidence:
  • Exhibition includes early photographs from Wojnarowicz’s visit to France, showing his innate talent for the medium (01:33–02:35).

Quote:

"What photography represents in his work...in this particular of the Rimbaud series, he represents a bridge that takes him from his writing work into the visual arts."
— Antonio Sergio Bessa (01:33)

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Eye for the Margins and Self-Reflection

• Subjects of his lens:
  • Wojnarowicz was drawn to outsiders, photographing street kids in France and focusing on neglected areas of New York.
  • Through his camera he both documented and reflected on his own experiences as a street kid.
• Narrative parallel:
  • The series depicts "sites of New York that mainstream New Yorkers wouldn't go to," emphasizing the city’s gritty reality (02:42–04:02).

Quote:

"He had an eye for the forgotten, for the underdog...he's looking at the other, but he's also looking at himself."
— Antonio Sergio Bessa (02:42)

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Wojnarowicz Among His Peers

• Non-competitive approach:
  • Wojnarowicz didn’t try to “compete” with other photographers; his work was more autobiographical, a way to memorialize his own life.
• Inspirations:
  • Admired photographers like Robert Frank and Danny Lyon, who captured America’s less glamorous aspects (04:10–05:19).

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The Rimbaud Fascination and Punk Connection

• Wojnarowicz’s interest in Rimbaud:
  • Emerged in the early 1970s, paralleling the punk scene’s similar fascination.
  • Patti Smith and others in New York’s punk milieu idolized Rimbaud, reflecting a broader cultural moment (05:37–07:20).
• Personal copy:
  • Wojnarowicz’s own battered edition of “Illuminations” is displayed in the exhibition.

Quote:

"So Humbo was currency in the 70s. I think it had been forgotten for a long, long time."
— Antonio Sergio Bessa (06:17)

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New York as American Landscape; Gathering Voices

• Ambition for universality:
  • Wojnarowicz saw himself as striving to be an “American voice,” not limited to New York’s geography.
• Literary works:
  • Early published monologues ("Voices from a Distance") arose from cross-country travel; he transcribed stories from people he met in diners and cafes, providing insight into post-Vietnam, pre-Reagan American malaise (07:36–09:02).
• Philosophical link with Rimbaud:
  • Bessa cites Rimbaud’s “I is the other” to explain Wojnarowicz’s worldview—a self formed through the stories and experiences of others (09:07–10:07).

Quote:

"He had this really generous kind of view of life. I think even though his life was so hard, he was always willing to share and to be there."
— Antonio Sergio Bessa (09:07)

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Rimbaud Mask and Urban Parallel

• France trip:
  • Wojnarowicz visited his sister in France in 1978, which may have influenced the Rimbaud series.
  • Photos include friends in the Rimbaud mask even in Paris (10:09–10:40).
• The mask’s power and humor:
  • The Rimbaud mask features in varied, sometimes jarring NYC settings—from Coney Island to the piers—drawing a parallel between Rimbaud’s Paris and Wojnarowicz’s New York.
• Socioeconomic context:
  • Both cities were undergoing transformation and turmoil during their lifetimes, which the photos subtly reference (11:06–11:51).

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The Friends Behind the Mask

• Known participants:
  • Brian Butterick (bandmate of Wojnarowicz’s Three Teens Kill Four);
  • John Howe (old friend);
  • Jean Pierre (Wojnarowicz’s former partner from France).
• Noteworthy detail:
  • Wojnarowicz was likely never the one behind the mask himself (12:18–13:19).

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Takeaways from the Photographs

• Wojnarowicz’s genius:
  • The exhibition aims to showcase not just Wojnarowicz the activist, but his inventive, genre-defying artistry.
  • Series highlighted as one of the era’s most important works, bridging literature and visual art (13:28–14:48).

Quote:

"The monologues that I just mentioned and this series of photographs just shows what a formidable artist he was. Really ahead of the curve."
— Antonio Sergio Bessa (13:28)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On photography’s bridge in Wojnarowicz’s career:
  "He represents a bridge that takes him from his writing work into the visual arts." (01:33)
• On seeing himself in the margins:
  "He's looking at the other, but he's also looking at himself because he himself was a street kid." (02:42)
• On punk’s Rimbaud obsession:
  "Humboldt has been a model for this generation for quite some time." (06:17)
• On empathy’s creative power:
  "My subjectivity is made up from everyone around me." (09:07)
• On artistic ambition:
  "He wanted to be an American voice, an American author." (07:36)
• On the importance of the Rimbaud photo series:
  "I think this series is one of the most important works of the 1970s." (14:18)

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Important Segments (with Timestamps)

• Introduction & exhibition overview: 00:09 – 01:12
• Photography’s role and influences: 01:12 – 04:10
• The Rimbaud connection and punk context: 05:19 – 07:20
• Wojnarowicz as American voice; literary ambition: 07:20 – 09:07
• On empathy and subjectivity: 09:07 – 10:07
• France trip, the mask, and NYC parallels: 10:09 – 11:51
• Friends behind the mask: 12:18 – 13:19
• Genius and legacy of Wojnarowicz: 13:28 – 14:48

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Closing Thoughts

This episode highlights David Wojnarowicz’s multi-layered artistry, his connection to the poet Rimbaud, and the cultural context of 1970s New York. Through Antonio Sergio Bessa’s curation and insights, listeners gain a deep appreciation for Wojnarowicz not just as an AIDS activist, but as a vital, innovative voice whose work continues to resonate.

For more information:
The "David Arthur Rimbaud in New York" exhibition runs at the Leslie Lohman Gallery through January, with a companion hardcover book available.

Transcript

[A]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The artist David Wojnarowicz was born in Red Bank, New Jersey. He spent most of his life in New York, often living on the street, crashing with his friends. It was a short life. He only lived to be 37 years old after dying of AIDS related complications in 1992. But it was an impactful life filled with work across many mediums in his paintings, writings, films, music, and his photography. Some of those photographs are now on display at the Leslie Lohman Gallery. The exhibition David Arthur Rimbaud in New York features photographs taken between 1978 and 1979, featuring his friends wearing a mask of the 19th century French poet Arthur Rimbaud in diners at warehouses and other scenes around New York. Joining me now to talk about the exhibition and an accompanying hardcover book is curator Antonio Sergio Bessa. Thank you. It's so nice to see you again.

[B]

It's a pleasure to be here.

[A]

So photography was one of the many mediums that David Wojnarowicz used. He used paintings, performance art, music, sculpture. They discovered a mural this year of his work in Kentucky. Where do you see his photography fitting in to the full oeuvre of his work?

[B]

That's a great question because as you know, he was a very good friend of Peter Hujar, who was the quintessential photographer of the 70s 80s in New York. And a lot of people think that he might have been coached by Peter. But actually the whole Humbo series is from before he met Peter. There is also, and in the exhibition we included two examples of that, some photographs that he took in France previous to the work about Humboldt and already shows his chops as a photographer. I think it's back to your question. What photography represents in his work. In this particular of the Rimbaud series, he represents a bridge that takes him from his writing work into the visual arts.

[A]

When you see his photography, what stands out to you?

[B]

Well, I think he had an eye for the, for the forgotten, for the underdog. So I am very, very fond of the two photographs that he did in France and its own view, their own view at the museum right now because he was in France visiting his sister who had married, I assume he was a Frenchman and moved to France and in 78 he went to visit her and he just did these photographs. And the photographs are of street kids sleeping on the sidewalk. And they are heartbreaking because in a sense he's looking at the other, but he's also looking at himself because he himself was a street Kid. So I think the photographs, also, the humble series, it's all about sites of New York that mainstream New Yorkers wouldn't go to. And I think he documented all that. It's almost, you know, in a joking way, I could say that it's as if he brought Ruhembu to the site of one of those 1970s films that showed New York in a very gritty way.

[A]

You know, how did his work compare to his peers, his other photographers who were peers?

[B]

I don't think at that time when he did those series, he was competing to become a photographer. He just had, as a practice, and I think, in a sense, was a way for him to document, to memorialize his life. So I don't think he. I don't think he was in competition with anyone else. But having said that, researching for this exhibition, I realized that he was very fond of photographers who are. Like Robert Frank, for example, who did that amazing series, the Americans. And I think photographers like Frank or Danny Lyon, for example, he had several books by Danny Lyon. I think he was interested in photographers who kind of stepped away from the glamour, from the mainstream and wanted to show a part of the American society that a lot of people, they are not used to see.

[A]

I'm speaking to Antonio Sergio Bessa, curator of a new exhibition featuring the work of artist David Vonarovic at the Leslie Lohman Gallery through January. It's also accompanied by a hardcover book of the same name. When did Wojnarowicz become interested in the work of Arthur Rimbaud?

[B]

We assume that it was in the early 70s. And in our book there is a beautiful essay by Nicholas Martin, who is a curator at Fayo's library. And when we begin to talk about this project, because I wanted to collaborate with Fayo's archives, they hold all the papers of David's at Fayos. And I immediately invited Nicholas to think about an essay for the book. And Nicholas said, oh, that's great, because I want to look at the beginning of punk in New York and the fascination that punk musicians like people like.

[A]

Patti Smith, like punk rockers like Patti Smith.

[B]

Okay, yeah, all those rock stars, they were kind of fascinated with Rimbaugh, and some of them actually changed their names or named their bands sort of after some angle of Humbo. So Humbo was currency in the 70s. I think it had been forgotten for a long, long time. David copy of Illuminations is on view at the Leslie Loma Museum, and I think that edition came out from New Directions in the early 50s. But I think David might have Gotten a used book sale or something like that. His copy is really beaten up. So I think it's in the context of New York in the 70s, of the emerging punk era. And he looked for a model. And Humboldt has been a model for this generation for quite some time.

[A]

So David was born in Red Bank, New Jersey. He spent his whole life in New York. He lived in the streets, he lived in halfway houses at certain points. What did he understand about New York City and where do we see it in his work?

[B]

Well, you see a lot in the Humboldt series, but I think David's work was more ambitious than that. I think he wanted to be an American voice. So in my essay for the catalog, I begin considering this first literary work that he published, which has a book which is called Voices from a Distance or in the Distance. And it's a series of monologues that he collected on the road. You know, he cross country several times. And during these trips, and he was very young, he was in his early 20s, he would sit in a cafe, in a diner, talk to people, and he would listen to their stories. And then after that, he would go back to his hotel room and he would transcribe everything from memory. And this book, I think, is a fascinating piece of literature that. That I think a lot of people haven't spent their time with it because it shows what a lot of Americans were going through during that time, in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the rising drug epidemics. So he wanted to be an American voice, an American author.

[A]

He took it in too. He was a conduit for the people telling the stories to.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. I find this a very interesting kind of link with Rimbaud, because Rimbaud famously said, I is the other. So je suis. Not je suis je et an author. And I think it's this idea that my subjectivity is made up from everyone around me. He had this really generous kind of view of life. I think even though his life was so hard, he was always willing to share and to be there. And I think also in this regard, I think it's very interesting what I found in his library at Fayos. He was very influenced by the beat writers, people like Jack Kerouac and stuff like that. So you see, it's kind of interesting that he's writing in the 70s, but he's thinking of writers from the 50s or 60s.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He visited his sister in France.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was that a transformative trip for him?

[B]

I think so, yeah. In many ways, I cannot say that that's when he had the idea to create the Humble series. Maybe he was already working on that previous to going to France, but he certainly. There is an image that someone wearing the mask in front of the Eiffel Tower.

[A]

The mask. Let's talk about the mask for just a moment. They're kind of funny because there's this gorgeous picture and then this sort of like, sort of blurred mask of Arthur Rimbaud. Arthur Marimbeau in New York. He's at Coney Island. There's a picture of him at the piers. What do you make of the places where he put his character and took their picture?

[B]

Yeah, I think, and this is my reading, I was thinking that what Humboldt went through in Paris, trying to live in Paris, you know, he ran away from home several times, tried to survive in Paris, but Paris was in transformation. This was during the Commune in the early 1870s. The situation in New York in the 1970s was pretty much like that. There was a lot of economical changes. The city was kind of changing a lot of neighborhoods, and the creation of the financial center and all that. I think there is a way to kind of do a parallel between those two things.

[A]

Do you remember that restaurant, Paris Commune in New York City? Oh, no, it was great. That's another story. I'm speaking to Antonio Sergio Bessa, curator of a new exposition featuring the work of artist David Wojnarowicz at the Leslie Lohman Gallery. The photographs in this exhibition feature what the text describes as a small coterie of friends. What do we know about them holding up the masks?

[B]

Yeah, there is at least two that we know for sure. Brian Butterick, who was a very good friend of David. He also played in a band that they had together called 3 14Q3, or three teens kill four. I always make a mistake about that. And then John Howe, who was someone that I think David met in high school, and they were friends forever. David also, when he lived in. In France for almost a year, he began a relationship with a Frenchman, Jean Pierre. And some of the performers, if you will, of the humble, is actually Jean Pierre when he came to New York to visit David. So it was a very small group of people. And it's interesting that we don't know for sure, but it seemed that David was never behind the mask.

[A]

What do we learn about David by looking at these photographs? What can we take away?

[B]

What an ingenious, inventive person he was. And I think this was, for me, the motivation to do this exhibition. I think a lot of people think of David as the activist, the AIDS activist, and I think this is all right and it's all good. But I think sometimes this image of himself as this political voice obscures the true genius of his work. And I feel that the monologues that I just mentioned and this series of photographs just shows what a formidable artist he was. Really ahead of the curve. I think. In my humble opinion, if you ask.

[A]

I will take it.

[B]

I think this series is one of the most important works of the 1970s. Truly, he was following on the path that some of the artists open, like Vito Acche, for example, Adrian Piper, but he actually pushed it much, much further. And I think for someone to bridge this gap between literature and the viror arts, I think it's an amazing feat.

[A]

I've been speaking to Antonio Sergio Bessa, curator of a new exhibition featuring the work of artist David Vonarovich. It's at the Leslie Lohman Gallery through January. Thank you so much for coming to the studio.

[B]

It's always a pleasure to be here.

[C]

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