All Of It with Alison Stewart

Rachel Kushner's New Espionage Novel, 'Creation Lake'

Aired: September 9, 2024
Guest: Rachel Kushner
Host: Alison Stewart

Episode Overview

In this episode, Alison Stewart sits down with acclaimed novelist Rachel Kushner to discuss her latest book, Creation Lake. The novel follows American spy Sadie Smith as she infiltrates a French commune suspected of eco-terrorism. Their conversation dives deep into the book's inspirations, the complexities of the central character, themes of infiltration, radicalization, and the real-world parallels of the eco-political struggles depicted in the novel. Together, they explore how Creation Lake reflects and anticipates contemporary cultural and ecological tensions in France and beyond.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of ‘Creation Lake’

• Lengthy Creation Process:

  • Kushner explains the novel took 14 months of intense writing after "years of fumbling" and ideation. (02:32–02:38)
    • "It tends to take me about five years to write a novel...I wanted to write a novel about that world, but kept asking myself, you know, is it an act of betrayal to include details that only somebody closer to one of these kind of groups would know?" — Rachel Kushner (02:38)
  • Real-life precedent: Inspired by communes in France infiltrated by undercover UK agents.

• Perspective Shift:

  • The crucial turning point was realizing the story's narrator should be the outsider, the infiltrator—Sadie Smith.
    • "And once I situated myself in her point of view as somebody who really is 180 degrees from myself...but adopting her purview, that must have..." — Rachel Kushner (04:51)

2. Depicting "The Real Europe"

• Contrast to the Pastoral Ideal:
  • The novel’s opening, according to Kushner, intentionally undermines the romanticized vision of France, emphasizing logistics, highways, nuclear plants—the industrial “real” Europe.
    • "What she's emphasizing is something to do with the European Union...She's giving an ugly view, which isn't the ultimate view, but is nonetheless a form of the truth of...how a super industrialized country like France functions." — Rachel Kushner (06:12)

3. Why 2013?

• Timing the Setting:
  • Chosen to evoke a particular post-commune, post-police-raid France.
  • "I wanted to set the book in a time that would be contiguous with the aura that hovered over that and the paranoia that was part of the fallout of that...it also happens to be the case that I was in Marseille in the summer of 2013 and you could not go...without hearing a snippet of Get Lucky by Daft Punk." — Rachel Kushner (07:28)

4. Naming the Protagonist and Real-World Inspiration

• Sadie Smith’s Name:
  • No intentional link to novelist Zadie Smith; “Smith” is Kushner’s married name.
    • "My husband has always joked that Smith isn't really a last Name...it's English for last name. ...Zadie Smith's birth name is Sadie. I had no idea until she actually read the book and wrote me a very nice note..." — Rachel Kushner (08:55)
• Research on Eco-Terrorism:
  • Kushner distances her work from the term “eco-terrorism,” highlighting how the commune’s actions stem from resistance to state-backed corporate water expropriation (“mega basins”).
    • "I've never actually used that term. I don't know where the terror part of it starts because these people just, they've not been convicted of anything. They are suspected of having incurred sabotage..." — Rachel Kushner (09:59)

5. Parallels with Real-World Events

• Fiction Anticipates Headlines:
  • The commune’s resistance over water presages real movements and clashes in France.
    • "Not at all. In fact, you know, the headlines are ripped from my book, Alison..." — Rachel Kushner (11:45)
  • Reference to the group "Les Sous le Vermont de la Terre" and contemporary farmer protests.

6. Sadie Smith—A Morally Ambiguous Spy

• Character Analysis:

  • Amoral, manipulative, and detached—Sadie judges others’ weaknesses and creates situations for others’ downfall largely without personal convictions.
    • "She does not have particular attachments or judgments and instead judges all people equally, although she does prize her own ability to see in other people what their weaknesses are..." — Rachel Kushner (12:38)
  • Her perspective allows the reader an inside look at both the group and the philosophical struggles within.

• Backstory and Professional Ruin:

  • Sadie’s past—a failed infiltration marred by entrapment—serves not as moral justification but as a succession of destructive professional feats, not trauma.
    • "Her backstory would only be her reporting on previous guises and dissimulations, previous scenarios in which she set out to destroy the lives of other people...And this young man is fond of her and she suggests to him that the consummation of their love will take place through his willingness to commit an act of sabotage..." — Rachel Kushner (14:24)

7. On Radicalization and The Prehistoric Temptation

• Thematic Inquiry:
  • Kushner resists labeling her work as exploration of radicalization, instead focusing on notions of retreat, prehistory, survival, and the desire for meaning in a “driverless car” world.
    • "We are currently careening off a cliff in a driverless car, and the question is, how do we exit the car?...I'm interested in the temptation to look into prehistory and the time before the written down, which is rife for speculation..." — Rachel Kushner (17:11)

8. The Character of Bruno

• Philosopher and Anchor of the Novel:
  • Bruno, the commune’s aging mentor, is described as a “homespun philosopher”—his wisdom and eccentricity provide the novel's emotional depth.
    • "Bruno is a sort of homespun philosopher. ...it's the homespun quality of Bruno's philosophy. He makes things up. ...it's a free indoor indirect discourse of an unfettered mind who's creating his own, his own way of being...I'm proud of Bruno because he's the heart of the book." — Rachel Kushner (18:36)

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On Literary Perspective:
  "Once I situated myself in her point of view as somebody who really is 180 degrees from myself, she has no sympathy for these people. She is intent on destroying their lives effectively, whereas I would be quite sympathetic." — Rachel Kushner (04:51)

• On “Eco-Terrorism”:
  "I've never actually used that term. I don't know where the terror part of it starts because these people just, they've not been convicted of anything. They are suspected of having incurred sabotage to state equipment." — Rachel Kushner (09:59)

• On the Timeliness of The Novel:
  "In fact, you know, the headlines are ripped from my book, Alison." — Rachel Kushner (11:45)

• On the Character of Sadie Smith:
  "She is being told by her higher ups to create provocation if it is not already there, among the people that she's infiltrated." — Rachel Kushner (12:38)

• On Influences and Themes:
  "We are currently careening off a cliff in a driverless car, and the question is, how do we exit the car?" — Rachel Kushner (17:11)

• On What She’s Most Proud Of:
  "I'm proud of Bruno because he's the heart of the book." — Rachel Kushner (18:36)

Essential Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:32 | Rachel Kushner on the inception and research for Creation Lake | | 04:51 | The perspective-shift: making the spy the narrator | | 06:12 | Depiction of the “real” Europe; industrial and infrastructural | | 07:28 | Reason for setting the novel in 2013 | | 08:55 | Sadie Smith’s name and connection (or not) to Zadie Smith | | 09:59 | Discussion on “eco-terrorism” terminology and research | | 11:45 | Real events in France mirroring her fictional plot | | 12:38 | Analysis of Sadie's personality and objectives | | 14:24 | Sadie’s professional and moral backstory | | 17:11 | Kushner’s philosophy on radicalization and existential questions | | 18:36 | Discussion of the character Bruno and Kushner’s pride in his creation |

Conclusion

Rachel Kushner’s interview offers an incisive look at the complex ethical, philosophical, and societal questions at the heart of Creation Lake. By blending real-world inspiration with nuanced character work and timely themes, Kushner crafts a narrative that is both of the moment and deeply reflective. Her candid discussion about the writing process, the moral ambiguity of her protagonist, and the eerily prophetic nature of her plot ensures that listeners come away eagerly curious to read—and reflect on—the novel.