Alison Stewart (2:45)

Yeah. You're given the first seven. The first script, it was the seven minutes of this love scene that you have with Michael B. Jordan's character. What felt special to you about that particular scene?

Wumi Masaku (2:58)

I mean, seven pages is. It's quite a lot in a script, but it felt so deep. It felt like I understood who they were. I felt like I understood their history, their love, the depth of their love, the breadth of their humanity and their fear, their beliefs, their differences, their grief and their hopes in seven pages is really. Really quite a feat to achieve. And I got these seven pages not knowing what the film was about. So I thought this was like a love film, like a love story. And I was so excited about the possibilities. And then Ryan kind of spoke me through the rest of the film, and I was like, wow, talk about gender, like, genre bending. And, like, it was so, like, I was like, oh, I was sure this was gonna be a love story. But. And it is.

Alison Stewart (3:57)

It is a love story, though.

Wumi Masaku (3:58)

I think it's one of the greatest love stories, but it's also a horror. It's a musical. It's. It's everything.

Alison Stewart (4:06)

How is love central to the story of Sinners?

Wumi Masaku (4:10)

I think love is central because the characters, they're so real, they're so whole. So you. You understand in. With all of them, who they love, how they love, why they love and what they love, and the community, the love within the community, and the love of the blues, the love of, like, a space that is theirs and it's. They're freeing. And the love of, like, parents and children and that loyalty, the love of your. Your ancestry, the love of. Of. Of needing, not just wanting, but needing to live your life and its purpose and with its. With ferocity and truth. And whether that's with your partner, if that's your. Your. Your desire, or whether it's your. Your gift, whether it's your. Your gift of like. For the character of Sammy, music and love is absolutely the heartbeat and the bloodline and the rhythm and the flesh of this whole movie.

Alison Stewart (5:27)

When we meet Annie, where is she in her life? What's important to her?

Wumi Masaku (5:33)

She is. You meet Annie when Smoke, her other half, has returned after seven years away. They have lost a child, and they are reconnected seven years after that loss. And there's something about their meeting where I feel like she knew. She's always known he was coming back. She always knew that these seven years were part of his grieving process and what he needed to. To do in order to keep living, you know, after such great loss. And I just, I feel like there's just this unsaid, unspoken kind of knowingness that they're, that they just need to be honest with each other and then we can be, we can move through this world together again. And that's all she requires of him, is honesty. And, and then they're locked back in. They, they are soul tied. Yeah, her. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. I, I, she has, has given him this like, mojo bag years ago. And I imagine it's something that she gave to him when she first fell in love with him. And I feel like she poured all of her power into bag and that's why it, that's why it works.

Alison Stewart (7:10)

You know, they do have an argument though in the beginning about accepting like, plantation currency in her store. And she, she refuses it. The blood money she grew up calls it. What does this tell us about their interaction?

Wumi Masaku (7:25)

That they serve two very different gods. You know, he is all about power and money and, and, and, and, and, and like the kind of earthly signs of success and, and capitalism and, and survival. And she is rooted in regardless of the world that they live in. She's rooted in that space because of her child. She's rooted in that space because of her beliefs and, and, and her people. And so if this is the currency that her people and her community are using, then that's all that matters because she's not going anywhere else. This is where she belongs until, until she doesn't belong there anymore. You know?

Alison Stewart (8:15)

She calls Smoke by his name, Elijah. How are Smoke and Elijah different to Annie? Or maybe they're not.

Wumi Masaku (8:25)

I like to describe Smoke as his smoke and mirrors. It's his representative. How he wants the world, needs the world to see him and interact with him. And Elijah is his core. It's his true vulnerable self. It's everything that he's too scared to show the world. And so the only person, the only people who know Elijah a stack his, his brother Elias and Annie, you know, that's. They're the only two people he can truly be Elijah with. And so they're different. They're different to her, but she understands the need for smoke. It's, It's Elijah. He. A smoke is Elijah's shield and protection.

Alison Stewart (9:25)

My guest is Wumi Misaku. We are talking about sinners. She plays the role of Annie. Let's get down to business. Annie is a healer. It's important to what she does. It's important to who she is. Did you know much about healing when you went to this role?

Wumi Masaku (9:42)

No, no, no. I didn't know anything about hoodoo and the practice of it, and I didn't know anything about the priestesses and their work and their work in the community. And, and that the keystone of that knowledge being a part of our survival as, as the diaspora. I, I learned that it was a derivative of ifa, which is a Yoruba traditional indigenous religion. And I'm a Yoruba woman. I was born there, but raised in the uk. And so for me it was, it was like this opening up of my, my ancestry, my, my survival, my, my why I'm here. And, and you know, a big part of the film is your ancestry and, and your place in, you know. You know, we talk about like future ancestors as well. Like you are, you will be a future ancestor. And so kind of learning about IFAM kind of grounded me in a way in, in because I found a part, part of myself that I didn't know existed within my research of Annie. And that kind of has given. Given me some kind of more roots for that role of the future ancestor, you know, that I will one day take.

Alison Stewart (11:06)

This sounds like a role that blew your mind a little bit.

Wumi Masaku (11:09)

It did. It really did. It changed me. Yeah, me on a very spiritual and cellular level, inspired me as an artist, like the kind of work that, what Ryan has created, that kind of quality of writing and that research and that love of, of. Of our cultures and our ancestry and our practices and our beliefs and our, you know, our conflicts. Just being able to. Someone being able to write all of that, like in one, you know, two hour film, like, it's, it blows my mind. But then learning Annie, trying to fill up the space that Annie takes, I kind of felt like, powerful. It was, it was feeding me like, minding me of my own power and, and like to tap into it. And as, as a mother as well. It was my first job back as after having my daughter. And so I just felt really inspired and hopeful and grateful and yeah, I always say it felt magical. And it feels like that's not quite the right word because it feels like a really easy word to say, but it really, truly felt magical and transformational.

Alison Stewart (12:26)

You got to get dressed by Ruthie Carter.

Wumi Masaku (12:29)

Oh, the woman legend.

Alison Stewart (12:33)

Seriously, what was something about the outfit you wore? Part of the costume that you wore that you've thought about a lot.

Wumi Masaku (12:43)

You know, the haint blue. I didn't realize that, that, you know, so for those who don't know, haint is another word for a spirit. And the haint Blue is. Is a color that people paint their homes with or the windows or the door frames in order because they think that the haint. Blue and the blue will make the. The spirit think it's the sky and, and they, and they'll run away because they don't want to go back to whatever, wherever they came from. So that. Hank, blue is a. As a color of protection. I loved that and I love how she used that. The colors between, you know, smoke and Annie. So Smoke is someone who doesn't believe in hoodoo, and he doesn't believe in all that. Even though he wears the mojo bag and he wears blue. Know.

Alison Stewart (13:35)

He knows. He knows somewhere deep down inside of.

Wumi Masaku (13:37)

Himself, he believes he believes in Annie. That's, you know, he believes in her. And. But yeah, I love that and I love the beads and, and that kind of prep. Those kind of prayer beads and how, and how she doesn't wear it, like just kind of out. It's kind of like an in. It's kind of tucks it into her costume and, and it be like a. A silent prayer for her love. I love that about her costume. But yeah, Ms. Ruth E. Carter, I mean, she is extraordinary. The detail, the texture that she brings. Like, every day you would come in something new. Like she was like, I'm going to. This belt is more like her tool belt. So let's put. We have. So, you know, people say, why didn't she have a mojo bag? I said, she did. She did have a mojo bag. It was just in my costume, silently. Just the heck, you know, that's important.

Alison Stewart (14:27)

For you as an actor to have that.

Wumi Masaku (14:30)

So important. Yeah, because there you go. Like, his mojo bag works. You know, like, things like that and, and, and, and like seeing her, you know, rely on it. Like, she has. She carries a little bit of like a little vial of holy water and a little knife and a talisman. These little things that don't really get. They don't get used in, in, in the script, but it's all there. And that's, that's because Ms. Ruth kind of sees things in 364d, I want to say, not just 364d.

Alison Stewart (15:06)

You know, there's moments in the film when various people are sort of drawn to the vampires. Either they want to be with someone they loved who has been turned, or there's something about the vampires that sort of tempts them. It doesn't seem like Annie is tempted. Why not?

Wumi Masaku (15:25)

Because her goal and her whole purpose is to be spiritually connected and so the vampires, they. They get to live this other life, but it's. It's. It's devoid of the ancestors. It's devoid of connected and spirituality. And so consider, you know, living this. This life of kind of. It's kind of a. There is a kind of freedom in that. In their life, although they have to hide from the sun, there is a kind of freedom where two people who aren't allowed to live, to be together in the Jim Crow south can now be together. But in the darkness, she. She's not tempted by that because all she knows is, I want to be with my people, my ancestors. I want. She wants to be an ancestor. That's her. That's. That's part of her purpose.

Alison Stewart (16:21)

What is something that you have not been asked about? Annie? You've done a ton of press. It's always been interesting. But something that you've wanted to say about her?

Wumi Masaku (16:31)

You know, I've. I read that scene, and I desperately wanted to be a. To work with Ryan on whatever he was working on. I really felt. And I said it to him, like, on the first day of the read through. I was like, I feel like Annie's gonna change my life. I think she's gonna change my life. Not on a. On a Acting, like, career way, but on such a. On a spiritual path. And I really feel like she has. I feel like even, like I say, I've been doing Yoruba lessons for five years, and it's fine. I'm finally, six months later, able to, like, do my whole class in Yoruba. The language stuck with me before, and I think there's just something with what clicked for me. So many things clicked for me beyond. I can't even explain all of it, but it just opened up a part of me. And now I speak. I speak. I want to say I speak Yoruba. I'm going to say it because I feel scared to say it, because I have to speak it very slowly, and people have to speak very slowly. But in time, I just know that this language is going to stick. I just know it. And that's a big change for me because you. You move to another country, and this is a topic that's in the film, too. You move to another country for whatever reason, whether you're seeking asylum or my. You know, my parents were students in the uk and you sacrifice so much of your culture and your. And you lose so much. So much I don't know about being a Yoruba woman. There's so many conversations I've never really had, like, even with my grandmother, because I've always needed an interpreter and I miss like nuances about her, you know, her personality and sometimes people can't be bothered to translate for you. And I just feel like Annie is the beginning of that reclaiming and home, home going and reconnectedness and a spiritual awakening. Just felt like that was always going to be the, the her purpose in my life, you know? Yeah.

Alison Stewart (18:59)

This just in. The film Sinners is being re released in IMAX starting May 15 for one more week. My guest has been Mumi Masako. It is so nice to meet you.

Wumi Masaku (19:09)

So lovely meeting you. Thank you so much.

Alison Stewart (19:12)

I'm Ira Plato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.