Small Stakes, Big Opinions: Dogs in NYC

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It with Alison Stewart

Episode: Small Stakes, Big Opinions: Dogs in NYC
Air Date: April 13, 2026
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Rachel Sugar (Reporter, Author of "Where Does a Dog Belong?" for New York Magazine’s Curbed)
Main Theme: Negotiating the boundaries, roles, and cultural meanings of dogs—and their owners—across New York City’s increasingly shared urban spaces.

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Episode Overview

This episode digs into the rising tensions around dogs in New York City, particularly after a harsh winter saw a spike in dog waste complaints, unleashed dogs, and broader cultural debates over the shifting role of dogs in city life. Through Alison Stewart's insightful hosting, guest Rachel Sugar’s reporting, and a lively array of listener calls, the episode explores how these "little dog battles" tap into much larger questions: Who gets to shape public space? What constitutes a family? And how do our attitudes toward dogs reflect the changing culture of New York itself?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Problem Isn't Really the Dogs—It's the People

[04:03-05:01] Rachel Sugar:

• The debate about dogs spotlights bigger issues than just pets—it’s about "who gets space in the city, who’s entitled to what, who’s kind of trampling over whose needs."
• Rachel confesses her own dog license lapsing, despite being a "pathological rule follower."
• The winter brought a sharp rise in dog-related complaints, especially waste, but also a more general “reshuffling of the world order” post-pandemic, as people reevaluate their relationships with dogs and public spaces.

Quote:

"I love a story that's not about what it seems to be about... and so I think, like, the amount of passion that dogs inspire on kind of all sides is not—I mean, right. There are people who really love dogs and people who really hate dogs... but I think it's really about who gets space in the city..." — Rachel Sugar [04:03]

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Are There More Dogs—or More Dog Entitlement?

[05:05-07:21] Rachel Sugar:

• Reliable data on the city’s dog population is scarce; most dogs aren’t licensed.
• What’s changed isn’t just the number of dogs, but the attitude: dogs are now more visible in places they’d have been excluded from a few years ago—cafes, grocery stores, subways, even bars.
• Rachel posits much of this is fallout from the pandemic, as people’s routines and expectations shifted.

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What Are New Yorkers Complaining About?

[08:38-11:47] Rachel Sugar & Callers:

• Common complaints include:
  • Dog waste left on streets (especially bad during the cold 2025-26 winter).
  • Dogs running off-leash in inappropriate areas.
  • Dogs in hospitality spaces, forcing staff to navigate blurry rules and the sensitivities of patrons, including those with legitimate service animals.
  • A perceived imbalance, as people will “dote on dogs but not help a struggling parent.”

Quote:

"...watching somebody pet a dog and coo over this dog while you’re sort of a mom struggling with a stroller, trying to get into a business, and people are just watching you struggle and feeling like, that's weird. Like, why could we not be so kind to other people?" — Rachel Sugar [10:38]

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Listener Stories: Dogs "Everywhere," for Better or Worse

• Sarah (Upper West Side): Describes dogs running loose at a children’s baseball game, stealing equipment, and parents exasperated at the lack of control (and dog waste everywhere this winter). [11:56-13:00]
• Patrick (Queens): Lifelong dog lover, but argues dogs shouldn’t be at farmer’s markets; “they don’t enjoy it” and often become reactive. Warns against dragging dogs everywhere. [13:32-13:57]
• Lourdes (Manhattan): Began bringing her dog to Mass during the pandemic. Now, with permission, continues to attend church accompanied by her pet. [14:07-15:13]

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Defining Family, Redefining Space

[15:13-18:46] Rachel Sugar:

• Anecdote: A dog owner at a playground tells a parent, “You’re here with your family. I'm here with my family.”
• Rachel discusses the evolving notion of family, with dogs as bona fide (if furry) members—a shift from mere “pets” to “children.”
• The challenge: Cities aren’t designed for interspecies families, leading to friction when needs genuinely collide.

Quote:

“There’s this idea—no, my dog is part of my family. Like, a person is part of my family. They truly sort of have a similar status... what is a New York built for the interspecies family?” — Rachel Sugar [15:32]

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Competing Texts: The Poles of the Debate

[19:05-20:13] Alison Stewart:

• Text from a dog owner: Dogs are often better-behaved than children; banning dogs from spaces is "small-minded, selfish, and cruel."
• Text from a non-dog owner: No dogs (except service) in museums, groceries, etc.; complaints about dog owners intimidating staff who try to enforce rules.

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Service Dogs, Disabilities, and Dog Etiquette

• Abigail (Brooklyn): Longtime service dog handler; credits service dogs for her independence. But laments the rise of "ill-behaved" animals, especially in public spaces, which can undermine access for genuine service dogs. [20:21-21:59]
• Rachel clarifies the rules: Non-service dogs on subways must be in bags or containers. [22:04-22:22]
• Alison shares seeing a German shepherd on a subway causing visible distress among passengers. [22:42-23:07]

Quote:

“The responsibility for me as the handler is to keep [the dog] under control. But when there are other animals on the subway, in a restaurant and their humans are not keeping them in check... it can be stressful.” — Abigail [21:00]

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Changing Perspectives and Dog Owner Responsibility

• Chemain (Long Island City): Shares her transformation from dog-avoidant to enthusiastic dog owner, now sympathetic to the joys (and minor inconveniences) dogs bring to city life. [24:25-26:09]
• On Rules vs. Norms: Rachel and Alison discuss how official rules (leashes, "pooper scooper" laws) can be at odds with local norms—for example, off-leash times in parks are routinely ignored or “creatively” reinterpreted by regulars. [33:54-35:45]
• Dog Waste Laws: The famous pooper-scooper law wasn’t enacted until the 1970s—before then, cleaning up after your dog was considered bizarre. [35:08-35:47]

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Race, Gentrification, and Dogs as Cultural Signals

[26:09-29:02] Rachel Sugar:

• A listener texts about “racial and racist double standards” in how dog (and space) rules get enforced—some see the proliferation of dog parks as a sign of gentrification.
• Rachel admits poor data, but notes that dog ownership has long been unevenly distributed by race in the U.S. Dogs, and debates about them, often become a proxy for deeper issues of class, race, and urban change.

Quote:

“In the public imagination... it’s rich white people coming in with their designer dogs and, you know, trampling all over everybody. You know, I think that’s like a very real feeling.” — Rachel Sugar [27:24]

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The Experience of Dog Ownership Across Cultures and Neighborhoods

• Camilla (Bed Stuy): As a Black woman with a large German shepherd, she feels racialized scrutiny and sometimes “parented” by other (often white) dog owners. Public reaction to her dog depends on neighborhood and local culture. [35:53-37:10]

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Not Everyone Can Tolerate Dogs

• Paula (White Plains): Allergic to dog saliva; recounts struggles with breathing around dogs in public transport or close quarters, and the insensitivity of some dog owners. Compares it to the anti-smoking movement: why must others suffer? [29:09-30:24]

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The Big Question: What Even Is a Rule?

• Mark (Pleasantville): Dog owner who finds joy in the “rule-breaking” nature of the era—if we put up with antisocial people in public, why not more dogs? [30:32-31:19]
• Owen (LA): Draws the distinction between children and dogs—society demands different responsibilities from their caretakers. [31:27-32:21]

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Notable Quotes

• “Is it different? It's really hard to say. The data... is pretty bad. But what we do know is that there's a sense that dogs are kind of invading people places, that dogs are showing up in places that they might not have shown up 10, 20... years ago.” — Rachel Sugar [05:05]
• "It feels like something has shifted. And I think it's less about numbers than about attitude." — Rachel Sugar [07:19]
• "The complainer... just accepted that, and everyone went on... it didn't escalate beyond that. So... it's tricky. It is this sort of point of renegotiation. And what does a family look like? And what do you do when it... doesn't fit what the city is built for?" — Rachel Sugar [17:56]
• "If somebody has to move, like who has to move? ...Should you have to have that conversation? I don't know." — Rachel Sugar [23:07]
• "If you as the dog owner are kind of doing the thing where you're pushing... the boundaries, then I think it's kind of on you to bend back." — Rachel Sugar [32:47]
• “The more... dog owners are reasonable and pleasant about it, the easier it is to justify pushing the boundaries, and the nicer it is for other dog owners. I think the issue with dog waste this winter and the anger about it was really bad for responsible dog owners because then everybody hates your dog." — Rachel Sugar [32:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Setting up the Debate: [01:38-04:03]
• Rachel Sugar on Reporting the Story: [04:03-05:01]
• Data & Dog Population: [05:05-07:21]
• Nature of Complaints: [08:38-11:47]
• Listeners’ Dog Stories: [11:47-15:13]
• Family & Belonging: [15:13-18:46]
• Listener Message Poles: [19:05-20:13]
• Service Dogs and ADA: [20:21-22:04]
• Rules on Dogs in Public Transport: [22:04-23:07]
• Norms vs. Rules (Leashes, Waste): [33:54-35:45]
• Race, Gentrification, and Dog Ownership: [26:09-29:02]
• Allergies and Exclusion: [29:09-30:24]
• Cultural Differences & Scrutiny: [35:53-37:10]
• Final Thoughts & Takeaways: [37:21-38:13]

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Episode Takeaways

• No Single Solution: The tensions surrounding dogs in NYC cannot be easily resolved by legislation or one-size-fits-all solutions; the city’s evolving attitudes about dogs reflect deeper cultural changes.
• Dogs as Cultural Barometers: More than “just pets,” dogs in the city highlight questions of privilege, belonging, race, and even definitions of family.
• Responsibility Matters: Dog owners—especially those stretching the rules—should err on the side of generosity toward those sharing the city, whether due to allergies, fear, or simple preference.
• Norms Are Always Shifting: Much of today’s “dog debate” in NYC arises from evolving, sometimes unspoken, community norms that often don’t align perfectly with written rules.

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Host Alison Stewart’s closing message:

"I think this idea of sort of what constitutes a family and sort of watching this be renegotiated in real time is totally fascinating... if everybody was nice and thoughtful about their community... I really don't think there's a sharper takeaway than that." — Rachel Sugar [37:31]

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For the full range of perspectives, anecdotes, and thoughtful debate, listen to the entire episode of "All Of It with Alison Stewart," featuring Rachel Sugar and the voices of New Yorkers wrestling with the small stakes—and big opinions—of dogs in the city.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. There are just a few days left to grab tickets to our next Broadway on the Radio event. This Friday in the Green Space at noon, we'll be joined by the cast of the Broadway revival of Rad ragtime, the earliest 20th century snapshot of race, class, culture and political history in America. And of course, the music. Ragtime stars Joshua Henry, Michelle Lewis, Cassie Levy, Brandon Uranovitz, Ben Levi Ross and Sheena Talb will be here, as well as director Lierre de Bessonnet to talk about developing this revival with its giant cast and the largest orchestra on Broadway. Visit wnyc.orgevents to get more info and to buy your tickets. We'll have the cast all here in person, backed by a live band specially curated for an intimate show at WNYC's performance venue, the Green Space. Now, if you can't make this event in person, don't worry. You can also tune in for free live on the radio or visit our live stream on YouTube. To register for that, go to wnyc.org events we hope to see you this Friday. Now let's get this started with Dogs in the City. This recent winter was one of the coldest in recent memory. We had a couple of serious snowstorms, not to mention many days where the temperature was firmly below zero. And one of the side effects of the brutal winter was a Seemingly total breakdown in dog cleanup. In February of this year, complaints about dog waste on city streets were up more than 80% over 80% compared to 2025. But the tensions about dogs, which is really about their owners, it doesn't stop there. There are dogs striding across the subways. There are riding in grocery carts in grocery stores, poning up to the bar, and sometimes running off lease in places where they're not allowed to be. But the problem may have to do less with the actual dogs. We love dogs. And more about their shifting roles in people's lives. Joining me now to talk about this is reporter Rachel Sugar. She wrote Where Does a Dog Belong? For New York magazine's website, Curbed. And she joins me now. Hey, Rachel.

[Rachel Sugar]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

So what made you want to report this story now?

[Rachel Sugar]

I mean, I love a story that's not about what it seems to be about. And so I think, like, the amount of passion that dogs inspire on kind of all sides is not. I mean, right. There are people who really love dogs and people who really hate dogs, like, truly. But I think it's really about who gets space in the city, who's entitled to what. Who's kind of trampling over whose needs in all directions. And so that's really exciting to me. Like a story that's just, you know, and then dogs are. Dogs are so fun. I mean, to me, like, I'm a dog person, but also a rule. Sort of a pathological rule follower. And so, you know, this is something I pay a lot of attention to. And so when things kind of flared up this winter around the waste situation, after the snow and then more snow, it seemed like kind of the perfect time to get into it.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. What's changed about dogs in New York? That it feels different?

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah. I mean, what's so interesting about it is that it feels different. Is it different? It's really hard to say. The data, you know, there's no New York City dog census. There's no national dog census. The data we have on how many dogs and how dog populations have fluctuated through time is pretty bad. The city, you know, keeps track of licensing, but the percentage of licensed dogs are minimal. Again, we don't know quite what that percentage is. I will say that despite being a pathological rule follower, I realized in the reporting of this piece that my own dog's license was out of date. So, you know, she had been. She had been a scofflaw for. For three years, and she's now up to date. But you know, so. So the data isn't very good, but what we do know is that there's a sense that dogs are kind of invading people places, that dogs are showing up in places that they might not have shown up 10, 20, you know, 30 years ago, maybe even five years ago. So that's sort of part one and then part two is like this kind of reshuffling of the world order coming out of the pandemic where, you know, and again, there's questions about how many dogs did people actually get during the pandemic. Did the dog population in New York City actually change much? But we know that people's lives changed a lot. Maybe they made choices around, you know, expanding their families to include dogs during that time and then went back to work and now are kind of thought their lives were gonna look one way forever, and they don't. And the world's kind of reopened. And so I think that's leading to sort of dogs showing up in. In more places, too. And so you are seeing them in, you know, in coffee shops, in grocery stores, sometimes on the subway, sometimes in bags, sometimes not in bags, you know, off leash maybe when they aren't supposed to be. You know, you're sort of seeing them all over the place, and it feels like something has shifted. And I think it's less about numbers than about attitude. But it's also possible there. There's a number of stuff going on.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Listeners, we want to hear from you. If you're a dog owner who takes your dog's places, they're not necessarily allowed, give us a call and tell us why. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. If you're a dog owner who obeys the rules, call and tell us why. And if you're a non dog owner who has a constructive, positive story to tell us about a human dog interaction, we want to know that, too. Our number is 212-4339-6-9221. And while we're talking about rules, just a reminder to everybody, please don't call us while you're driving and keep us off speakerphone. We want to hear your dog opinions to be heard clearly, and we want everyone to be safe. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We're talking about dogs in New York City and some of the tensions that have sprung up between their owners and other New Yorkers. Rachel Sugar is the author of a Curbed article called where does a Dog Belong? She's joined us here in the studio. Let's talk about the kind of complaints that were, that were made. Are they about, specifically about dogs, dog bites? Are they more serious or were they about something else?

[Rachel Sugar]

I mean, I think, you know, there's the, there's the cosmetic. I mean, and to say that it's an aesthetic complaint is, I think, minimizing. Like it is gross when there is dog waste on the street. Yes. And it feels, it's like antisocial behavior to leave your dog's waste just like on the curb. It really feels. It's like it's hostile to everyone else in the city. But, you know, it's also, I don't think we're seeing like a plague of disease coming out. You know, like it is a quality of life issue. So I think there's that. I think, you know, the off leash hours. Well, dogs off leash at sometimes, even at times when they're allowed to be off leash. But people feel threatened, like, if you're not a dog person. I think having dogs sort of being in a park of dogs gallivanting freely of all sizes and all speeds and kind of coming at you is unsettling. And then I think when that starts to happen outside of sort of designated hours that can feel, it can be delightful and joyful, but it can also be really threatening and feel like you don't know what these dogs are going to do. So I think there's that. I think it puts, you know, and there are restaurant hospitality owners and workers who love dogs who, like, you know, regardless of what the health department says.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Not the other way.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah. Happy to look the other way, happy to coo over your dog, have dog biscuits at the counter, you know, whatever. I think there's also people who own these businesses who feel like I'm trying to follow the laws of the city and I don't want to be put in this position where I have to sort of make it. Make it weird and put people who really do have service dogs who are allowed to be here in this position of having to defend their right to, you know, right to be here. And I think, you know, so I think it often puts people in hospitality or small business owners or large business owners. I don't know any. Anybody who's sort of working in an indoor space and coming into contact with dogs. You know, I think that's a, that's a source of tension. And I think there's just, you know, I certainly talked to a lot of people while reporting this story who were kind of feeling like people are so bend over backwards to pet dogs, to be sweet to dogs, to be really doting on dogs and can be really. Don't extend that same kindness to other people, to other human beings, or, you know, watching somebody pet a dog and coo over this dog while you're sort of a mom struggling with a stroller, trying to get into a business, and people are just watching you struggle and feeling like, that's weird. Like, why could we not be so kind to other people? And is that sort of a miss? Like, are priorities kind of confused here?

[Call Screener/Producer]

Let's take a couple calls from listeners. Let's talk to Sarah, who is calling from the Upper west side. Hi, Sarah, you're on the air right now.

[Sarah (Caller)]

Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call. So we were at my son's little league game yesterday morning. It was about. The game was at 8. So it was around 8:15, 8:30 at the great Lawn. And lo and behold, someone's dog just comes gallivanting across the field, steals, like, the little red cones that are markers for where the kids are supposed to stand. And he's just having a grand old time running, running across the field. And the parents were just like, wow, this is out of control. And it happened not just once, but it was like two more times after that. And this woman just couldn't control her dog. She said he was a puppy, he broke off the leash. But, I mean, everyone was just sort of like, wow, this is.

[Abigail (Caller)]

This is crazy.

[Sarah (Caller)]

And I just think this is, like, an example of how things have really gotten a little out of hand. I love dogs. I am a cat person. However, I do love dogs. But I do. I mean, having lived on the Upper west side for so long, this winter was just out of control with the poop everywhere. And that's not. That's not a new thing. But it seems. It does seem worse. Like you were saying. It just feels different.

[Call Screener/Producer]

I think this winter really did something to people.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah, I. I mean, I think this winter was so rough in so many different ways. And it seems like it just. People kind of, people sort of started behaving in. In kind of bizarre ways, and people simultaneously, like, lost their patience with that kind of behavior. So it was like, I can't take it anymore. Like, I'm done. I'm calling 311 or.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Yeah, let's talk to Patrick, who's calling in from Queens. Hi, Patrick, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.

[Patrick (Caller)]

Thanks.

[Owen (Caller)]

Well, longtime dog Owner.

[Patrick (Caller)]

I just unfortunately lost my dog of 19 years.

[Owen (Caller)]

Absolutely love dogs, but people take their

[Patrick (Caller)]

dogs too many places.

[Rachel Sugar]

My hot take is a dog doesn't

[Patrick (Caller)]

belong at the farmer's market. They're stressed.

[Rachel Sugar]

They don't enjoy it. People insist on dragging the dog around.

[Patrick (Caller)]

It's reactive.

[Owen (Caller)]

You know, we don't need to take our dogs everywhere.

[Alison Stewart]

Patrick, thank you for calling in. Let's also talk to Lourdes, who is calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Lourdes. Thank you for taking the time to call Olivet.

[Sarah (Caller)]

Hi. Well, I take my dog to mass, to church, and I started doing that after the pandemic. During the pandemic, when there were no

[Lourdes (Caller)]

services, I would take her. When I went in, the church was open.

[Rachel Sugar]

I'd go in and pray.

[Lourdes (Caller)]

The parish priest would see us there.

[Sarah (Caller)]

And when services restarted, I asked permission if I could bring my dog, and he said yes. And I'm not the only churchgoer who brings their dog. Most of the dogs are really quiet. I take her up to communion, and I think some churchgoers are surprised. You know, I make sure she doesn't invade their space. But a lot are happy to see them. And I started doing it because my dog likes Central Park. The church is close to Central Park. Otherwise, I'd have to go. Go back and forth when I walk

[Lourdes (Caller)]

her and go to Mass.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you for calling in. There was an interesting person in your piece, Rachel. It was a greenpaw dog owner who got a little bit into it with a man who had a kid on a playground. And the dog owner told him, hey, man, you're here with your family. I'm here with my family. What did that interaction say to you?

[Rachel Sugar]

I mean, I think it's really. It's so fraught, right? Like, what constitutes a family and what. And, you know, there's a scholar who I talked to a bit for this piece who's like, this is one of her primary things is sort of looking at changing family structures and how animals and, you know, for my purposes, dogs kind of fit into that. And I think, you know, I don't think being like, my dog is part of my family is a new phenomenon. But what she's kind of identified is is this. This idea, like, no, my dog is part of my family. Like, a person is part of my family. They're truly sort of have a similar status to another, to a human family member and a similar sort of function. So I don't think. And that's just observational. That's sort of not good or bad. It's Just like the way it is. And given that sort of changing framework, I don't think it's that crazy to be like, well, this is my family. Like, I. My family structure is me and my dog, or me and my partner and my dog, or me and my partner and my kid and my dog. Like, I. I think there's often this kids versus dogs. But, like, a lot of dog owners have kids. A lot of people with dogs will go on to have kids. A lot of, you know, people with grown kids have dog, you know, so. So it's really not either or. But I think it's sort of easy to be dismissive of that, of that dog owner who's sort of saying, well, it's my family. And being like, well, that's not your fa. I mean, you can see the difference between a kid and a dog. Like, one is, you know, gonna go on and sort of carry on human civilization, we hope, and the other is, you know, like, kind of tops out at fetch. But I don't think. I don't think that's off base. I don't. I mean, the problem right, though, is if you see it that way, well, what do you do with that? How do you have an interspecies family? And what is a. What is a New York built for the interspecies family look like? You know, there's still the fact, like, the caller who was talking about the baseball. The baseball game that, like, this is a moment for this little league team. They're doing a human child activity. This puppy may be a dog child, but is. But is, like, doing its own thing. Like, it's not that.

[Call Screener/Producer]

If a human did that and stole.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah. That would. That would be antisocial and bizarre. Right. And so how do you. So what does the city look like? I do think it's notable in that. In that anecdote that's in the story that the. The complainer, the. The person that the dog owner was sort of snapping back at took. It was like. Didn't really say anything, but, like, accepted that. And everybody went on and, you know, it didn't escalate beyond that. So I, you know, I. I don't know. It's tricky. I mean, it is this. It is this sort of point of renegotiation. And what does a family look like? And what do you do when it. When it doesn't fit the. When it truly doesn't fit what the city is built for?

[Call Screener/Producer]

We're talking about a curbed article. Where does a dog belong? Its author is RACHEL sugar, We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. I have in studio with me Rachel Sugar. She's the author of a curbed article called Where Does a Dog Belong? We're talking about dogs in New York City. I'm going to give you two texts that are wildly opposed. The first one says for first text says for many of us, the subway is the only way to get our dogs to the vet or to a park. Obviously, it is important to keep animals of all types and sizes under control. And I'm not against ticketing if you let your dog do something unsafe. But most dogs are better behaved than many children. To ban dogs altogether is frankly small minded, selfish and cruel. This other text I have said non service dogs should never be in museums, art galleries, food stores, botanical parks or restaurant. Many guards in such establishments have told me that dog owners snap at them and even threaten lawsuits when the guards try to enforce these rules.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah, I mean, that's the story, right? Like, that's the tension. Yeah. I mean everybody, it's like to both. Yes, yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Abigail who's calling in from Brooklyn. Hey Abigail, thank you for making the time to call all of it. You're on the air.

[Rachel Sugar]

Hi, Allison and Rachel.

[Abigail (Caller)]

Yeah, I have lots of opinions on this matter. I've been working with service dogs for 16 years. I have a disability and my dogs are more than they are. I mean, they certainly are pets and companionable, but they give me a greater sense of safety and independence when I'm out. And thanks to the Americans with disabilities act, the ADA that was passed almost 35 years ago, I have those protections to be able to take my dog who has been trained to perform a specific task into public spaces. And throughout the 16 years of being

[Sarah (Caller)]

with dogs, I do a lot of

[Abigail (Caller)]

educating the public who are not aware of what the ADA is.

[Sarah (Caller)]

But I also encountered quite a number

[Abigail (Caller)]

of people who have very ill behaved animals. And I think Patrick, someone earlier was alluding to how stressful it can be to bring your pet somewhere. My dog has been trained and has been exposed to be in those public spaces. And the responsibility for me as the handler is to keep the dog under control. But when there are other animals on the subway, in a restaurant and their humans are not, their humans are not keeping them in check or the businesses feel like they can't tell them to go, I mean, the businesses can, they have those legal protections too. But yeah, this is very sensitive, very relevant topic for me because I'm more and more encountering people who have dogs that are super stressed and don't want to be on the subway or in a market.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Thank you so much for calling in. Abigail. What are the rules about having a dog on the subway?

[Rachel Sugar]

So the rules for the subway are pretty straightforward. You can have a dog, they need to be in a bag or other container. Are they, you know, question mark? There's. They're not that often. I certainly see dogs on the. In. In bags.

[Call Screener/Producer]

In bags, yes, I've seen that.

[Rachel Sugar]

And that works. And that's where you get the meme of like the husky in an IKEA bag with like holes cut out for the feet. Right. It's in a bag technically. But a non service dog is not supposed to be sort of riding the subway like a person. Like they're supposed to be contained in some, in some way, you know, and

[Call Screener/Producer]

it was on the subway and it was really interesting because a dog got on and it was a German shepherd and they can be very scary to so many people. And a group of people got up and moved. And I thought to myself, I really like, that shouldn't be. I know that you might have to get up to the vet or something, but I'm not sure that dog should be on the subway because it really, really frightened people. And the dog also might be frightened or put in a position where it might snap.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah, I mean, there's so much to say about this because there's certainly the issue of like, okay, well, if somebody has to move, like who has to move? And one guy I talked to for this story who does take his large, I think fluffier, sort of less threatening looking dog, but, but big dog on the subway, you know, occasionally was telling me, occasionally people ask him to move, say they're afraid of dogs, they can't be near this dog and he's happy to move. Should you have to have that conversation? I don't know. I mean, you know, I don't know. I was also asking somebody why they don't, you know, why they take their dog on the subway, a bigger dog. And they were sort of saying, well, they try to take Uber pet, but often even though you say you want Uber pet and you sign up for Uber pet, the driver gets there. They didn't mean to, you know, they won't take you and your pet. And the subway is sort of reliable. So I think that's, you know, it's like another one of these things where you're sort of betting you're kind of just need everybody to, like, act in the best possible faith and accept everything in the best possible faith. And it's just everybody's not always acting in the best possible faith. And, and that's a hard way to sort of run a, run a city.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Chemain, who's calling in from Long Island City. Hi, Shamayne. Thank you so much for taking the time to call all of it.

[Sarah (Caller)]

Hi, Allison, how are you? Can you hear me?

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, I hear you. Great. You're on the air.

[Abigail (Caller)]

Yeah.

[Sarah (Caller)]

So this is like a catch 22 situation. So I. I'll tell you my, my story, just very brief. My entire life, I ran away from dogs. If I saw dog owners and dogs, I would constantly cross the street. I didn't like dogs licking me. I didn't like dogs sniffing me. I just ran away from dogs. My daughter at the time, I believe Emma was 1 years old and she was protesting a dog for at least five years. And then I finally got a dog. And I feel, and I believe that the world is changing. I don't know the percentile, but I believe everyone in the next few years, like, everyone's going to have a dog. I don't think the dog is a problem. I think it's the dog owners. If we can change the way we. If we can change the way we view dogs and the way we treat dogs, I believe dogs should be able to go anywhere in the grocery store. For me, like, running, I have to have a skincare company called Love by Emma. And a lot of my products, I purchase them in a supermarket. So I have to run into Trader Joe's. I have to run into Whole Foods. And I have to take my dog with me because I have to get back to work and he needs to go for a walk. And he loves it. He loves the attention. And now as a new dog mom, I'm very sensitive to other dogs. I want to pet them. I want to love them. Dogs are amazing. But I do get it for those who. Yeah, I know this is, like, very weird because I was once that person, like, take your dog away from me. The dog is your pleasure, not my pleasure. Don't bring him or she near me. But now I'm like, come, like, what's your name?

[Alison Stewart]

Like, she's been turned over.

[Rachel Sugar]

That's interesting.

[Alison Stewart]

This is an interesting comment we got from someone. It says, I agree with your guest. This is partly about who has the right to take up public space and how tied in with what is racial

[Call Screener/Producer]

and racist double standards when it comes

[Alison Stewart]

to enforcement, as is the case with

[Call Screener/Producer]

fare evasion, open containers and alcoholic beverages.

[Alison Stewart]

And you get into that in the

[Call Screener/Producer]

article a bit about. We used to say the other word for gentrification was dog park.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

And you get into gentrification and the

[Call Screener/Producer]

racial element of this.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah. And it's tricky. Again, like, I so wish this was a. There was better data on this because sort of who has dogs is really interesting, and the data is just not that good. You know, certainly, like, historically and from what we do know, you know, dog ownership is not evenly distributed, which doesn't mean that people who, like, I think Asian Americans and black Americans have much lower overall or at least had much lower rates of dog ownership than, you know, Hispanics and. And white Americans. But, you know, that doesn't. That doesn't speak to, like, every individual person.

[Alison Stewart]

Of course not.

[Rachel Sugar]

And I think one thing that's sort of fascinating about dogs is that, well, obviously there are, you know, different cultures and different attitudes all over the world and even, you know, and within the US and rural versus suburban versus urban, and how any individual person was raised. Like, there's so much going on with how any, like, the. The factors that produce sort of how an individual person might feel about dogs. But one of the things I really think is fascinating about dogs is they do cut across. They don't follow standard political or racial or socioeconomic divides. Like, when you look at, you know, I don't think dogs really have a, like, conservative versus liberal valence. Like, I think they're sort of their own kind of their own thing. But, yeah, I mean, certainly there are these at least historical disparities in terms of who has. Who wants to have dogs or who does have dogs and who doesn't. And when you see a bunch of dogs come in, I think, at least in the popular imagination, even if it doesn't necessarily bear out 100% and we don't really have great data here, but in the public imagination, like, it's rich white people coming in with their designer dogs and, you know, trampling all over everybody. You know, I think that's like a very real feeling. And, you know, again, it's a good example of it's not the dogs, it's the people.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Let's talk to Paula in White Plains. Hi, Paula. Thank you for taking time to call. All of it. You're on the air.

[Paula (Caller)]

Thank you, Alison. And I have to tell you how much I love you. You're terrific. But what I'm Going to say is going to very unpopular. I am allergic to dogs. And it's not the hair, it's not the fur. There's no such thing as a hypoallergenic dog, period. What most people who are allergic to animals are allergic to their saliva. And what happens when I'm near a dog? So it's whether I'm enclosed in a subway car with a dog and I'm on the other side or whether they're standing under my nose. What happens is my bronchia and everything gets inflamed and it's really difficult for me to breathe. And I just think people need to understand that this is real for other people. You know, when I say to people, excuse me, could you move your dog? I'm allergic to your dog, I get, you know, snapped at. I get very nasty comments. And it's because then I can't breathe. And is that fair? If I lit up a cigarette in front of somebody, would they not tell me to put it out? It's the same kind of deal. And I think dog owners, all dog owners need to understand that when they're doing that, there is that odd person who they are hurting, not helping.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Paula, thank you for calling in. Let's talk to Mark, who's calling in from Pleasantville. Hey, Mark, thanks for calling all of it.

[Patrick (Caller)]

Hi, how are you? So I am one of the people who would take my dog pretty much wherever she was comfortable. I think we kind of live in a time where what even is a rule anymore? I think one of you used the term antisocial and bizarre to. I mean, we live in an antisocial and bizarre time. If we're willing to tolerate antisocial and bizarre people, you know, at the coffee shop, you know, in public office, whatever your view is, why wouldn't we accept the most loving and endearing living things that. That some, for some reason spend time with us and allow some shot at redemption in a effective. Like, what even is a rule at this point? I get it. There are laws. But the only reason I go to the coffee shop anymore is to see people's dogs.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Thank you for calling in, Mark and Owen, he's calling from la, I believe. Hey, Owen, thanks for calling, all of it whatsoever.

[Owen (Caller)]

Thanks for having me on.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Yeah, what do you think?

[Owen (Caller)]

I listen to you guys up, by the way, every morning. It makes Los Angeles life terrible. So thanks for that. As a lifelong dog owner and as a parent, I was listening to the comment about the irate dog owner in the park who's like, well, hey, it's my family too. Like, I get that. I feel it. I've lived it. But, like, you know what? If I left my kid at home all day, I'd be arrested. I can leave my dog at home. There are distinctions. We have to remember these distinctions that carry over into the street, you know, and it becomes, as always, the responsibility of the. The dog owner to make sure that you're actually sort of being productive in how you're engaged and outside. We have these assumptions that dogs can be anywhere. And I think it's part of this post pandemic drift where we've had these sort of social erosions in some places. And yeah, they're not human, but we love them like they are. They're the best, but they're not human.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Thank you for calling in. What is your response to what we've just heard from our callers?

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah, I mean, there's so much. I think, you know, that point that they're. That they're not human is like. Is definitely true. I think when you're the person, like, like, it seems to me that it's a bit on the. It's on the side. If, if you as the dog owner are kind of doing the thing where you're pushing the.

[Call Screener/Producer]

The rule, the boundaries, the boundaries, the

[Rachel Sugar]

rules, then I think it's kind of on you to bend back. Like, I'm. I'm a little bit, like, I'm a little bit surprised at the amount. I don't know that I'm surprised, but it's a little bit discouraging to hear that, you know, like the caller saying she has this allergy, that's pretty serious sort of saying, can you move your dog? I feel like it's on the dog owner to be like, yeah, I can, because I'm the one who's kind of pushing it. And it's, you know, it's. It's disheartening that that's not happening, especially because I think the more sort of dog owners are reasonable and sort of pleasant about it, sort of the easier it is to. To justify pushing the boundaries, sort of the nicer it is for other dog owners. Like, I think the issue with dog waste this winter and the anger about it was really bad for responsible dog owners because then everybody hates your dog, you know, so. So that's. That's one thing that really jumps out.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, we covered rules in the subway.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

What about leash laws?

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah. So your dog's supposed to be on a leash. I think it's six feet, not Longer. There are, you know, dog parks. There are areas and specific hours which tend to be before 9am or after 9pm in parts of parks, though not necessarily the whole park, but designated areas where dogs can be off leash. And this is a really good case, I think, of where you. Those are the rules. And then you also see norms that don't match the rules. Norms where you'll see, you know, in Prospect park really tends to be closer to like, you know, after work, duskish, you know, not 9:00pm Interesting. Right. And so then it's like, well, this is the rule, but this is what we do here. This is what we as a community seem to do. And when those things don't match, I think you also get some tension where, well, you're not following the rules. Well, you're not, you know, are you new here? And kind of going back and forth

[Alison Stewart]

and it's sort of interesting because the pooper scooper law, that didn't show up until the 70s.

[Rachel Sugar]

Yeah, that is shocking to me. And the response to it when, you know, in the 70s there, there was this real push to clean up the city. Sometimes very literally in, in terms of the pooper scooper law which, you know, passes in 19 and the buildup to that, there are people sort of saying, I don't even understand what you're talking. How would I, like what are the biomechanics of how would I move my body to pick up this weight? Like, I don't. With what? Like that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. And that's wild. That's not that long ago. And now that's like what most people do.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rachel Sugar]

And it's fine.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk to Camilla from Bed Stuy. Hey Camilla, thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

[Lourdes (Caller)]

Hi Alison, thank you for taking my call. I am a five' three black woman. I have a 95 pound German shepherd in living in Bed Stuy. And when I am on the subway, when I'm walking my dog, I communicate non verbally with other people because they do feel safe without my dog. So I'll pull my cow closer to me. Not for me or my dog, but to let the other person know. And also in terms of culture, when I do take my dog to the dog park in Bed Stuy, I am usually the only black person like in the dog park in Von King Park. And I see the, I see the difference of when I met my dog, when I have my dog in my dog park in Bed Stuy. The People who like my dog are usually older, senior citizen black people that have a reference of a German shepherd. Whereas when I lived on West 57th street and I took my dog off leash hours between 7am and 9am at Central Park, I had a lot of people trying to parent me about my dog. So there's like this idea that I need to tell you how your dog is when my dog is usually the most trained person, but because of who I am optically, it's always a concern that I don't know how to parent my dog. So I see that a lot in terms of me, my community, and who's responding to my dog and why and to me to train me.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Camilla, thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Shane in Riverhead. Hey, Shane, thanks for calling, all of it.

[Rachel Sugar]

Oops.

[Call Screener/Producer]

Shane's got a bad connection. We're about to wrap up. Is there anything else you wanted to tell people about your piece, about your reporting? Something you discovered, something that you realized?

[Rachel Sugar]

Oh, I mean, you know, I think this is just like such a. I think this idea of sort of what constitutes a family and sort of watching this be. Be kind of renegotiated in real time is like, it's totally fascinating and it's not easily resolved. Like, I don't think there's a clear if everybody would just do XYZ other than like if everybody was nice and thoughtful about their community, you know, But I really don't think there's like a sharper takeaway, like a sharper sort of action item than that. And I wish there was, but I. I sort of think it's exciting that there isn't.

[Call Screener/Producer]

It's a really great piece. It's called Where Does a Dog Belong? It's by Rachel Sugar. Thank you so much for coming to wnyc and thanks to all our listeners for all of their thoughtful calls. We appreciate it.

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