
Hsu joins us alongside co-creator Nahnatchka Khan to discuss the series, streaming on Peacock.
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WNYC Studios
Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
Alison Stewart
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you are here on today's show. Jonathan Van Ness is here in studio to talk about their new comedy show titled Fun and Slutty. We'll also speak with Marlena Doubt. She's the author of the new book the first and Last King of the Rise and Fall of Henry Kristof. And we'll hear a live performance from Grammy nominated musician Divinity Rocks. That's the plan. So let's get this show started.
WNYC Studios
In.
Alison Stewart
The new dark rom com Laid an actor Stephanie Hsu plays Ruby Yao, a self absorbed 33 year old event planner whose dream is to find the love of her life. But not your just average love story. The stuff romance movies are made of like Ryan gosling and Rachel McAdams kissing in the rain. However, life takes a turn when Ruby's college boyfriend dies at the funeral. She runs into an old friend who she slept with as well and they have a fight in an Uber they share. He angrily gets out of the car and boom. He is suddenly killed by another vehicle. As the body count continues of Ruby's exes who meet their maker like one catches fire, another dies in a plane crash, one gets shot. This sends Ruby and her true crime obsessed friend AJ down a spiral to figure out why so many of Ruby's exes are dying and who is next. Stephanie Hsu received critical acclaim for her role in the film Everything Everywhere all at Once as well as Joyride and the Wild Robot. Broadway fans remember her from Be More Chill. She is a star of the show and an executive producer of Laid and she joins us now. Hi Stephanie, welcome back.
WNYC Studios
Hi.
Stephanie Hsu
Thank you for having me.
Alison Stewart
And joining us is co showrunner and writer Ninatchka Khan who also worked on the comedy film Always Be My maybe and the show Fresh off the Boat and Young Rock. Ninatcha, it's really nice to meet you.
WNYC Studios
Thank you. Nice to meet you.
Alison Stewart
All right Ninatka, in developing this series you and your co showrunner said you wanted to bring back the idea of old school traditional romantic comedy to tv. So why did you want to bring back the old school part and then also try to figure out how to make it new?
WNYC Studios
I think for Sally Bradford McKenna, my co showrunner and I like bringing back that sort of old school classic rom coms paired with this sort of dark death streak that's running through the show. Felt like a really good match because it would be like if you took one of those classic rom coms like whatever, Notting Hill. But then people were dying, gruesome death. So like, those two things together felt like really fun mashup for us.
Alison Stewart
That was funny in watching the series is the death. The deaths were gruesome and they happened fast.
WNYC Studios
That's right.
Alison Stewart
Take you by surprise, Stephanie. In a screening of the first two episodes, you told a theater full of people. This cracks me up. You are excited by the premise because you're sick in the mind just as we all are.
Stephanie Hsu
I'm just feeding y'all sound bites for you to chew on, you know, some little. Some little twisted crudites. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really fun to, you know, get to do all the weird stuff that might exist in our imaginations and make stories out of it. But, you know, as someone once said to me when they first watched the show, they said, I know you call this a dark rom com, but to me it actually just feels like what dating is like. So I think that that really is the truth of. Of what's twisted is that it's hard out there.
Alison Stewart
What did you see in this role that you thought, I can really chew this up? I like this role.
Stephanie Hsu
I mean, I think, you know, part of it is that the script was so funny from. From the get go when I. When I got the script of the pilot and the premise is just so juicy. But also, you know, I am a person who grew up in the heyday of all the quintessential Nora Ephron rom coms, and I love rom coms. Um, but I do know that it feels like we. We don't have something that fully encapsulates what modern dating is like. And it felt really exciting to get to be a character that is so similar to so many friends I have who are imperfect but very imperfectly human, who are just trying their very best to find that thing that we were all promised, that love and romance that seems a little bit harder to attain once you, like, actually try to try to find it.
Alison Stewart
Nanachika. Obviously the show deals with death. How do you think. How did you think about the tone early on in the show's? Development.
WNYC Studios
I mean, we definitely were excited for the challenge. Like I was saying, you know, blending a very. A traditional rom com structure and tone with this idea that people can die at any moment and there's a mystery element and there's also this, you know, very strong female friendship at the center. Like it was exciting for us like that the tonal challenge. And I just feel like audiences are very savvy and ready and not confused by things that people are like, oh, are people going to get it if you shift from this to that? It's like, yeah, I think so. I mean, I. I feel like not only will they get it, but they're excited for something that feels fresh and different and unique and, you know, we were happy to rise to the occasion.
Alison Stewart
How did you follow that challenge, Stephanie? How did you adjust between being very funny and then also in the same show, I mean, truly affected by these people's deaths?
Stephanie Hsu
Yeah, I mean, I think I feel so grateful that Ninotchka is our fearless leader. You know, as an actor. Actor. You know, my job is to fight for the character as much as possible and find a way in to like believe her psychology and then completely relinquish into the process. So I think, I think the way that it all we stitched it together was through the guidance of Notch and the surrender into the truly. I mean, you know, reading on a script that someone is gonna, you know, get hit by a car and then collapse onto a windshield. Reading it is very different than filming it and seeing it with your very eyes. So a lot of the tone I think we were discovering in real time.
Alison Stewart
Stephanie, how would you describe your 33 year old event planner, Ruby Yao? How would you describe her? Where is she in her life?
Stephanie Hsu
She wants love so bad more than anything else that it is creating blind spots within herself. The work that she needs to do on herself, she doesn't want to do. She's chasing for it outside of herself. She is slightly narcissistic and selfish, but we love her because she's a hot mess, like many of us are. And, you know, seeking something that's quite earnest.
Alison Stewart
Natch. Anything you wanted to add to that? I just called you, natch. Like, oh, natch. What's going on?
WNYC Studios
Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, please do. It would be weird if you didn't. I think, I think just to add to that, I think that, you know, just to give Stephanie a few flowers for a second. Like, I think that not only is she the star, but she's also the exec producer. So she was very involved with us in shaping the character of Ruby, but the entire show and the tone and I feel like a true partnership with us from the very beginning. And I would just add that, you know, Ruby, the character of Ruby is doing the things that she thinks she needs to be able to tell you. At a cocktail party, she's doing like, oh, I'm in therapy, I'm working on myself. I'm doing all that stuff. But she's not. But then when we actually get into those scenes, it's like she's zooming with her therapist. For years, she's never gone in person and that's like something that she does in the series. She actually goes in person, like shocking her therapist. So it's like the things that we could tell people as if we're doing the work, but we're not really doing the work. And that was also like a very fun thing for us to. To, you know, explore.
Alison Stewart
Actress Stephanie Hsu plays a hopeless romantic whose exes keep dying in the new Peacock comedy Laid. She's joining us to discuss the series alongside co showrunner Ninachka Khan. Laid is based off of an Australian series. We learned that in the and titles. How did you approach adapting the series for a new audience? What were some of the changes you wanted to make?
WNYC Studios
We loved the premise, you know, and Sally and I always joke that, like, we can kind of brag on the premise because we didn't come up with it. You know, like, we loved that hook. And the show was made, you know, in the early, I think in 2011 or something like that. So it had been a minute. And when we watch it, we really wanted to sort of take what they had done, like start at the same place and then kind of go in our own direction, which is more of the messed up rom com idea and the idea of what has been promised to us, as Stephanie said, ever since the original came out almost 15 years later, where are we as a society and dating and finding love and connection and all that sort of thing? And that, you know, all those themes lead you to Rom Com. However, this kind of big concept is still carrying all the way through. So we wanted to kind of update it and then we wanted to take it in kind of a hard left direction from where the Australian series started.
Alison Stewart
Let's listen to a clip from Laid. This is Ruby talking to her roommate and best friend AJ after having another bad date hookup. And her mate's boyfriend Zach jumps in. Let's listen.
Stephanie Hsu
Seriously, that thing just wasn't there. And I Don't have time to waste on another wrong person. Here I am after 20 years of dating, 33 years old, on the phone with a lyft driver at 2am trying to figure out if I'm standing on the northeast corner.
Alison Stewart
Might be time to look inward.
Stephanie Hsu
Um.
WNYC Studios
What?
Alison Stewart
You know, I've always admired you, Ruby. Ever since AJ and I started dating. Seen you putting in the work night after night out there. Dating, dancing, drinking, swiping, wiping. Is it possible that you still being alone is the fault of thousands of guys and fair share of girls and you're not at all to blame? I mean, possible, yeah. Likely, no.
Stephanie Hsu
Sorry. Aren't you at your job right now? I said it like that because I don't think it's a job.
Alison Stewart
Livestream is the best job.
WNYC Studios
Rubes.
Stephanie Hsu
Ignore him. This is a man who's planning to wear shorts and a bolo tie to a wedding.
Alison Stewart
The shorts are sateen.
Stephanie Hsu
Okay, you know what? You didn't even know that was a fabric until two days ago. Fine. Sure. I have things I can work on. I can hear that, I can receive that. It's not like I'm not ever going to find someone. Right. Of course.
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I really don't.
Stephanie Hsu
Zachary Bridgerton. Oh, that can't be his full name.
Alison Stewart
That's from Laid. She's. She's a little bit self involved. Stephanie. A little bit, yes.
Stephanie Hsu
Should we make an audio play? Because that sounded really good.
Alison Stewart
It did. Right. When you're thinking about her, how does she reconcile this version of herself? This. No, I'm not thinking about everybody else. I mean, she is thinking about other. Other people versus the version of herself, which is like, I'm only thinking about me. All of her exes say, hey, yo. You just think about yourself. How does she reconcile those two?
Stephanie Hsu
Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the. What she comes to discover in the series. And you know, when Notch and Sally first pitched Ruby to me, they, they. They were really like, you know, she's a narcissist. She's a narcissist. And I'm like, okay, hold the phone. I have to play her and I have to find a way to love her somehow. So why is she behaving this way? And for me, what I really came back to is just again, like understanding this part of herself that at every turn she's looking to find the one. And. And that is occupying such a huge part in her psyche that she can't even know. She doesn't even know what she's not seeing or investigating in Herself. And it's not through. It's not until this, you know, series of crazy, you know, deaths and this, you know, this coming to terms journey that she goes on through the season that she finally is able to hear it. But I think when people are being really selfish, they don't always know that they're selfish because what's right in front of them is them, you know, And I think that, you know, it's fun to play characters that are so flawed in a direction that gives us a little bit of room to be like, well, I'm not like that. But it's just close enough and rooted in something that is true about being human that we are able to, as audience members see ourselves in the ways in which we are sometimes flawed or selfish or imperfect in our quest for whatever we're looking for, you know, natch.
Alison Stewart
Something I definitely clocked in was the show is not sex shaming her. Even though it does the whole. The.
Stephanie Hsu
The whole list gets.
Alison Stewart
Gets thrown about to people. The show is very clear about not sex shaming her. Why is that?
WNYC Studios
I mean, because that to us, like, that's not funny, you know, and like, it feels. It feels old fashioned. It just doesn't feel of the moment, like. And that wasn't the point, you know, especially when you have a show which is about, like a woman killing people and it's related somehow to her sleeping with them. I think the low hanging fruit of it would be to go to something like that. And for us it was like, okay, well, that's not what the show is about. It's actually, it has nothing to do with the number. And I think it's funny to, you know, and Zasha Mamet, who plays aj, Stephanie's best friend, like, wheels out the sex timeline. And it's funny, you know, to see Steph and Ruby be confronted with that, which is very funny. And that would be very confrontational for us all. But it's another thing to be ashamed of it or to be, you know, somebody to shame you for it. And I think, yeah, just, it's not funny, it's not interesting. And for us it's like, let's just embrace the fact that we're all sexual beings, we all have history, and it's really about who we were back then. It's less about, oh my God, what's my number, what's my body count, whatever, but rather like, who was I back then when I was dating this person or hooking up with this person or whatever. And that's the journey that we were more interested in For Ruby.
Alison Stewart
We're discussing the new Peacock comedy Laid. My guests are Stephanie Hsu and Anachka Khan. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it.
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See.
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Stephanie Hsu
We follow a mystery into a space.
WNYC Studios
I mean, it's as dark as anywhere you can get on the planet where creatures shape shift. You really feel like you're looking through them into an abyss.
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Things behave strangely.
WNYC Studios
It's like, good Lord, I mean, that's just nuts.
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And darkness rules.
WNYC Studios
Yeah, you feel like it's asking you something.
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Listen to the Darkest Dark on Radiolab. Wherever you get podcasts.
Alison Stewart
You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are actor Stephanie Hsu. She plays a hopeless romantic whose exes keep dying on the new Peacock series. Late. Every time I say that, it's just funny. She's also joining us is the co showrunner of the show, Ninotchka Khan. Ninotchka. This is where the rom com comes in. Ruby has this romantic feelings for this guy named Isaac. He's setting up a 40th anniversary party for his parents. What does Ruby offer? Isaac?
WNYC Studios
I think for Isaac, you know, we. He's got a girlfriend who's a marine biologist gamer who is like the perfect woman on paper. And when he meets Ruby, I think that he's drawn to just her energy and the chaotic spirit of her, like, because she is this sort of, you know, she comes in like a tornado a little bit. But there is something that's, you know, things are sucked into a tornado for a reason. And I think, like, he finds himself like the cow in Twister getting pulled in and yeah, I think he just hasn't met anyone like her before.
Alison Stewart
How does Ruby navigate these feelings that she's dealing with with Isaac? Stephanie?
Stephanie Hsu
Well, one of my favorite lines in the show is, you know, when she sort of is confessed. When Ruby is confessing her feelings for Isaac, you know, she's like, I, I can't, I can't like him because, because. Oh, or maybe A.J. says this. I can't. You can't like him because you could kill him. Suck it back in. But, you know, it is so fun. I think it's like that is a very common rom com trope of wanting something so bad that, you know, you can't have. And I think therein lies the, the lust and the, the growing desire that, you know, everybody just loves to see.
Alison Stewart
The other thing the show really plays with is this idea of true crime and single girls being in love with true crime. AJ specifically. What does AJ like about true crime? Natch.
WNYC Studios
I mean, and that, that's a real shout out to Sally Bradford McKenna. Like, she loves true crime. She's been obsessed with it since I've known her. And I think that there's a, there's just, I mean, there's a salaciousness to it of trying to figure out like this sort of, you know, mystery element and who did this and who's acting, you know, like this. But there's also an element of control, I think, especially for AJ where, you know, she works as a bartender. She's not, it's not like she's got her sort of life or career or whatever mapped out. She's dating this guy who she might or may or may not be that into and we'll find that out over the course of the. But the thing that she can control and she could put all of her energy and focus into is an external thing, and that's solving these mysteries and, you know, really being into the true crime. And there is just, you know, there's something really compelling about that.
Alison Stewart
Well, let's listen to a Cliff AJ the true crime obsessed friend. She's just learned how one of Ruby's exes died. That's what we'll say. And we'll take a listen and we can talk about it on the other side. This is laid.
Stephanie Hsu
Look, I know death. And yes, I know every girl now is obsessed with murder, but I started the trend. They can have their buckle fat removal and Charlotte Tilbury. I get blood spatter. And Amanda Knox is Amanda Knox, the one Italy acquitted. Real killer left behind Poo. My girl has been through so much and all people remember is the poo. Look, I know the right questions to ask. And in your case, the right question to ask was, what killed David? David, my first love is dead. Feels like just yesterday he was my RV La J Bandage dress at prom. Now he's a literal angel in our sky.
Alison Stewart
The show is full of these amazing pop culture references.
WNYC Studios
Thank you.
Alison Stewart
I was just sort of fun to.
Stephanie Hsu
Know what's not allowed on the radio. Right by surprise.
Alison Stewart
They'll be surprised when they watch it on Peacock. I. I know. I'm sort of curious about that level of that you just knowing, like, when to drop the pop culture references. Natch. When you were writing it, did it just. Did things just pop out at you? I mean, a Hervey Leger dress. Who knew?
WNYC Studios
Yeah, I mean, it just. I think it's just in the details, right? Like this, like, the specifics to us, is what makes the show. And for me and Sally and Stephanie and our whole writing team and the cast, we were all on the same page with that. So it's like, you know, instead of just saying prom dress, what makes it funny is like, she remembers the exact. And it feels real, just those kind of little things and fully knowing Amanda Knox and just, you know, across the board, as you say, like, through the whole show, it just felt like these are people who live in society with the rest of us and they consume media and they're immersed in the same culture we are. And why wouldn't they reference it? It feels real.
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Still.
Stephanie Hsu
I want to give a shout out to all our writers and because I do think that this show, you know, ultimately is a comedy and we had a room of like ferociously funny people who are hardcore comedy writers. And it is a very joke forward show. And that is like a writer's dream playground of being able to pull at all those references and sprinkle them into this world of. Of punchlines. So I just want to, yeah. Celebrate all the amazing people who, you know, made this, like, such a joke driven show, which is actually, like, quite rare these days.
WNYC Studios
Agree 1000%.
Alison Stewart
Stephanie. We're gonna. We're gonna talk about, natch. Like, she's not here. She directed like six out of eight episodes. What is a piece of advice or guidance that she gave you as an actor that really helped you understand Ruby or move Ruby's character forward?
Stephanie Hsu
Hmm. Well, as Michael Angarano, who plays Richie, said to me recently, he said, not just a beast of a director, which she is, she's an incredible, incredible leader. And I would often call her on Saturdays when we weren't filming be like, I don't know about that take. Did we get it? Did we get it? And something she said to me at the very end of our process actually was like, look, we. The Venn diagram between you, me and Sally, or other kosher runner, we have a Venn diagram of taste and, like, jokes and, like, tone that we believe is right for the show. And also, we are all our own circles. You're. You are your own circle. And. And to, like, celebrate that honor that. And that, to me, was actually something I still think about to this day. Because, you know, anytime you are an artist and you go into a collaborative process, what you're aiming for is to aim into the center of that Venn diagram. You want to, like, get it right. You want to, like, appease everybody and make sure that the thing you're making is the same and that everyone is excited about. But there's also such. Yeah. Like, something really special about honoring yourself as an individual and your own taste and trusting that that doesn't need to conform to everybody else's, but is part of the, like, magic of what you bring to the table. And it doesn't have to be right and it doesn't always even have to end up in the cut, but it's what you, as an artist are bringing. Bringing to the table and that can be truly individually yours. I thought that was so beautiful. Like, when you said that to me, I couldn't believe it.
WNYC Studios
Me too. I thought that was quite beautiful when you just said it back to me. No, but it's. It's true. I do feel like. I mean, that's the thing that I find so surprising and exciting on the day. And in the process, it's like, you know, I have my view of what it is, Sally has hers, we can all talk about it. But then, you know, when the cameras are rolling and you. It's, you know, I mean, it's been said so many times, but the magic of a delivery that you didn't expect, of an action you didn't expect, of improv, of tone, of emotion. And I think, you know, like, I think that's part of what makes this so special, you know, when you feel for Ruby in the unexpected moments. I mean, so much of that is what Stephanie, you have brought to the character. Like, it's not on the page, it wasn't discussed, it's not in the shot lists, you know, and I think it's important to make sure that the script is great and your shot lists are done and you have a plan, but then you kind of have to just like release it. And I think like that that is part of what makes it special and what the individual brings to it. Not to try to overtake that, you know, to allow that to. To let it, you know, make it better.
Alison Stewart
So I was sick over the weekend and I watched eight. All eight episodes, right? I had my little screeners. I was going, and I thought, gosh, there's gotta be an episode nine. So I walked in, I said to Malik, okay, tell me what happens? And he's like, that's it, it's eight episodes. I said, what? So does this mean there's a season two?
WNYC Studios
I mean, we listen, we're ready. We're ready.
Alison Stewart
Like, oh, there better be a season two. That's all I gott.
WNYC Studios
I mean, we have so much to explore. As you know, from the end of season one, we've set up this big cliffhanger.
Alison Stewart
Well done, well done. It's a good way to get a season two. It's a really great show. It's called Laid. I've been speaking with Stephanie Hsu and co runner Nanachika Khan about the series Laid. It's on Peacock. Thank you for your time today.
WNYC Studios
Thank you. Such a pleasure.
Alison Stewart
Season two. We need season two.
WNYC Studios
This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday.
Alison Stewart
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All Of It Podcast Summary: Episode on Stephanie Hsu and the Comedy Series 'Laid'
Release Date: January 22, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Stephanie Hsu (Actor & Executive Producer of 'Laid') and Ninatchka Khan (Co-Showrunner & Writer)
Alison Stewart opens the episode by introducing the new dark romantic comedy series, 'Laid', starring Stephanie Hsu as Ruby Yao. Stephanie, known for her acclaimed roles in Everything Everywhere All at Once and Be More Chill, also serves as an executive producer on the show. Joining her is Ninatchka Khan, the co-showrunner and writer, recognized for her work on Always Be My Maybe and Fresh Off the Boat.
Notable Quote:
"[...] Every guest and listener has an opinion. We won’t always agree, but our varied perspectives and diversity of experience is what makes New York City great."
— Alison Stewart [00:36]
'Laid' is described as a dark romantic comedy that subverts traditional rom-com tropes by intertwining them with unexpected and gruesome events. The protagonist, Ruby Yao, is a 33-year-old event planner obsessed with finding true love. However, her exes begin to die under bizarre circumstances, turning her quest for romance into a suspense-filled mystery.
Notable Quote:
"If you took one of those classic rom coms like Notting Hill and then people were dying, gruesome death. So like, those two things together felt like a really fun mashup for us."
— Ninatchka Khan [02:55]
Stephanie Hsu delves into her character, Ruby Yao, portraying her as a deeply flawed yet relatable individual. Ruby's desperation for love leads her to overlook personal growth, making her slightly narcissistic but endearing. Stephanie highlights Ruby's journey from being self-absorbed to confronting her flaws amidst the chaos of her exes' untimely deaths.
Notable Quote:
"Ruby is doing the things that she thinks she needs to be able to tell you. [...] But she's not. [...] It's like she's zooming with her therapist."
— Alison Stewart [08:10]
The discussion emphasizes the show's innovative blend of classic romantic comedy structures with dark, death-related plotlines. This fusion creates a unique narrative that challenges audience expectations and explores modern dating complexities.
Notable Quote:
"I think that not only is she the star, but she's also the exec producer. [...] Ruby, the character of Ruby is doing the things that she thinks she needs to be able to tell you."
— Ninatchka Khan [08:10]
'Laid' is an adaptation of an Australian series, reimagined to reflect contemporary societal themes and the evolving landscape of modern relationships. The creative team aimed to maintain the original's essence while steering the narrative towards a darker, more intricate direction.
Notable Quote:
"We loved the premise [...] start at the same place and then kind of go in our own direction, which is more of the messed up rom com idea."
— Ninatchka Khan [09:34]
The show consciously avoids sex-shaming its protagonist despite the high body count of her exes. Instead, it focuses on Ruby's personal journey and the authenticity of her experiences, promoting a non-judgmental portrayal of her past relationships.
Notable Quote:
"Let's just embrace the fact that we're all sexual beings, we all have history, and it's really about who we were back then."
— Ninatchka Khan [14:24]
Stephanie Hsu shares insights into working with director Ninatchka Khan, highlighting the importance of individual artistic expression within a collaborative framework. This synergy allows for authentic character portrayals and dynamic storytelling.
Notable Quote:
"We have a Venn diagram of taste and, like, jokes and, like, tone that we believe is right for the show. And also, we are all our own circles."
— Stephanie Hsu [24:37]
As the first season concludes with a significant cliffhanger, Alison Stewart expresses enthusiasm for a potential second season, underscoring the show's impactful storytelling and its resonance with the audience.
Notable Quote:
"We have so much to explore. [...] from the end of season one, we've set up this big cliffhanger."
— Ninatchka Khan [28:04]
The episode provides an in-depth look into 'Laid', exploring its innovative approach to romantic comedy by integrating dark, mysterious elements. Through engaging conversations with Stephanie Hsu and Ninatchka Khan, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the show's themes, character development, and creative processes. The blend of humor, romance, and suspense positions 'Laid' as a standout series poised for a compelling continuation.
Notable Moments in the Podcast:
Character Insights: Stephanie discusses Ruby's internal struggles and growth throughout the series, emphasizing her journey from self-centeredness to self-awareness.
Tone and Style: The creative team elaborates on balancing comedic elements with dark, unexpected plot twists to keep the narrative fresh and engaging.
Cultural References: The show is rich with pop culture nods, enhancing its relatability and depth, as discussed by both guests.
For more information on 'Laid' and upcoming episodes, visit Peacock or follow WNYC's All Of It podcast.