Steve Martin and Alison Brown on Their Banjo Collab 'Safe, Sensible, and Sane'

Summary

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Podcast Summary: All Of It – Steve Martin & Alison Brown on ‘Safe, Sensible, and Sane’

Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Alison Stewart, WNYC
Guests: Steve Martin and Alison Brown

Overview

In this episode of All Of It, Alison Stewart sits down with Grammy-winning banjoists Steve Martin and Alison Brown to discuss their new collaborative album, Safe, Sensible, and Sane. Together they dive into the creative process behind the album, the banjo’s evolving place in American music, their musical approaches, and anecdotes from their remarkable careers. Highlighted by live in-studio banjo performances and tracks from the new record, the conversation is lively, warm, and candid.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Inspiration of the Album

• The collaboration grew organically—songs emerged one at a time with no deliberate “theme” but later revealed an arc (03:54):
  • Alison Brown: “We wrote these songs kind of one at a time without a specific theme or a specific agenda… but I do think there’s an arc. I mean, the record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, just a little banjo conversation, and then builds up...” (03:54)
  • The album features genre-spanning banjo pieces, from bluegrass, bossa nova, to calypso and Irish influences.

2. Exploring Banjo Styles: Clawhammer vs. Three-Finger

• Alison Brown recounts being inspired by Steve Martin’s clawhammer style (02:09):
  • Alison Brown: “I hadn’t thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve…” (02:09)
• Steve demonstrates how clawhammer differs from three-finger, emphasizing their complementary approaches (02:43).

3. Reimagining Traditional Tunes: 'New Cluck Old Hen'

• The duo reworked the Appalachian standard "Cluck Old Hen", not only creating new lyrics but intentionally removing problematic, misogynistic themes (04:29):
  • Steve Martin: “I thought, geez, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a lyric that, to me, was kind of fun, but a little silly… So I reimagine it… Then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed that with Della Mae.” (04:29–05:13)
• Aoife O’Donovan provides vocals on the version played.

4. Genre Experiments: Banjo Meets Bossa Nova

• “Michael” is highlighted for blending banjo with bossa nova, led melodically by Alison and lyrically by Steve:
  • Alison Brown: “I had a melody... and Steve was really intrigued by it... he really imagined a whole story...” (07:09)
  • Aoife O’Donovan and Sarah Jarosz provide vocals and harmony (09:55).

5. Writing Lyrics for Music

• Steve describes the learning process for writing lyrics, sharing a funny anecdote about advice from banjo legend Earl Scruggs (10:10):
  • Steve Martin: “I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn’t figure out how to overlay lyrics… [Earl said] ‘I just play the melody.’ And I go, oh, so I can write a song and then write lyrics to my melody.” (10:10)

6. Banjo Performance: "Let's Get Out of Here"

• A live in-studio performance demonstrates the interplay of their banjos and playful musical chemistry (11:08–12:46):
  • Steve Martin: “It is so much fun to play with Alison. It just really is.” (12:50)
  • Alison Brown: “I catch you, Steve.” (12:52)

7. Their Musical Journeys

• Alison’s route through Harvard, an MBA, investment banking, and founding Compass Records before dedicating herself to banjo (13:11–13:53).
• Steve’s teenage fascination with the banjo and the misadventures of learning the wrong type at first (14:12):
  • Steve Martin: “I didn’t realize there were two types of banjo… trying to play bluegrass on a four-string, which is impossible…” (14:12)

8. Banjo Lore: Instruments, Favorites, and Craftsmanship

• Both reveal personal banjo collections (15:36, 16:22).
• Alison explains her favorite banjo’s origin—a Czech luthier who braved Soviet restrictions to learn from Earl Scruggs by smuggled book (15:47–16:07).
• Steve discusses banjo decoration and why you need an instrument “everywhere you go” (16:11–16:33).

9. Meaning of the Title: ‘Safe, Sensible, and Sane’

• The title comes from a 1930s letter writing manual; Steve thought the list of phrases sounded musical:
  • Steve Martin: “There was one section that listed these phrases… Safe, Sensible and Sane was one. Anyway, there was a whole list and I thought they sounded like music lyrics so I copied them out…” (17:09–17:46)
• Both reflect that the title unintentionally aligns with contemporary longing for stability (18:20).

10. Reflections on Time: “Dear Time” with Jackson Browne

• Steve wrote with a sense of acceptance and reflection, looking back over life at age 80 (18:45):
  • Steve Martin: “There’s an adage for writers, write what you know. And I thought I should be able to look back in a way and put it into song. And I thought of the tone I wanted. I didn’t want it to be angry. I wanted it to be accepting…” (18:45)
  • Song features personal, universal imagery (“throw the ball with my old dog one more time”) (20:09).
  • Alison Brown: “It’s poignant… I think it’s a pretty universal feeling...” (20:09)

11. Humor & Banter

• Steve’s wit throughout, including on Martin Short’s musical ability (21:30):
  • "He has one, no interest and two, no ability." (21:30)
• Alison and Steve's warmth for each other and shared joy in music.

12. Closing with Live Banjo: “Swing Song”

• The episode closes with another live banjo duet (21:57–end).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Banjo Collaboration & Innovation

• Alison Brown: “The record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, just a little banjo conversation…” (03:54)
• Steve Martin: “She’s really the leader in those different styles.” (03:20)

On Reworking Old Songs for Today

• Steve Martin: “And then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed [that].” (05:13)

On Life’s Choices

• Alison Brown: “I just didn’t have as much of an affinity for tax exempt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs.” (13:24)

On Banjo Addiction

• Steve Martin: “When I first started learning to play, I’d get a banjo and put one in every room, so no matter where I went, I didn’t have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn.” (16:33)

On Title Inspiration

• Steve Martin: “I said, Alison, these sound to me like music lyrics. And she arranged them so they could kind of rhyme and then she set them to this, their, you know, calypso sound. And the truth is they’re nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make.” (17:58)

On Nostalgia and Time

• Steve Martin: “I go back with Jackson Brown to when we’re 17… we did a video at the Troubadour and it was very nostalgic for us.” (21:00)

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Timestamps to Important Segments

• 01:55 — Steve on what makes the album special
• 02:09 — Alison on clawhammer inspiration
• 03:54 — The album’s arc and genre range
• 04:29 — "New Cluck Old Hen": reinventing tradition
• 07:09 — Blending banjo and bossa nova
• 10:10 — Steve on writing lyrics for music
• 11:08–12:46 — Live in-studio banjo duet: “Let’s Get Out of Here”
• 13:11–13:53 — Alison’s life journey with the banjo
• 14:12 — Steve’s banjo origin story
• 15:36/16:22 — Banjo collections and craftsmanship
• 17:09–17:46 — Album title origin story
• 18:45 — Steve on writing “Dear Time”
• 21:30 — Martin Short banjo joke
• 21:56 — Closing live performance: “Swing Song”

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Summary Reflection

This episode is a rich, personable exploration of banjo artistry, genre defiance, and creative partnership. Steve Martin and Alison Brown share not just their technical prowess but also insights into musical innovation, life’s crossroads, and the humor woven through it all. Their mutual admiration and spirit shine, making even technical banjo talk accessible and entertaining. Through performances, storytelling, and candid reminiscence, Safe, Sensible, and Sane emerges as a heartfelt labor of love and a fresh celebration of the banjo’s possibilities.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Coming up on the show today, we'll talk to writer and director Kelly Reichardt and actor Josh o' Connor about their new art heist movie the Mastermind. We'll speak with Jonathan Goldstein, the host and creator of the podcast Heavyweight. And we'll learn about the hilarious new musical about Barack obama obama called 44 the musical that's coming up. So let's get things started with a couple of banjo players. Grammy award winning musicians Alison Brown and Steve Martin are sitting right across from me in studio. Hi. And they brought their banjos.

[Steve Martin]

It's great to be live.

[Alison Stewart]

The duo have been playing and writing songs together. And over the weekend, Alison and Steve released a new album. It's called Safe, Sensible and Sane. It features vocalists like Vince Gill, Jason Mraz and the Indigo Girls. And sometimes Allison and Steve just play. Let's listen to an example. This is their song, Evening Star. Safe, Sensible and Sane is out now. Steve Martin and Alison Brown are here for a listening party and they have their banjos with them. So they're going to play a little bit. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming into the studio.

[Steve Martin]

It's our pleasure. We've made a record that we like, we're proud of and we have great performers on it. And we're out just talking about it.

[Alison Stewart]

We heard there was a story that goes with the song we just played. Evening Star.

[Alison Brown]

Right. Well, my favorite story about this tune is just how inspired I was by Steve's clawhammer style of banjo playing, which is a more traditional style than the three finger style I play that involves metal picks. His style involves brushing the strings of the nails of his right hand. And I hadn't thought about that style too much or realized how versatile it was until I really started collaborating with Steve and he played me a beautiful three, four time melody that he'd written for Clawhammer Bancho. So that was inspired me to think about what we could do with that idea.

[Alison Stewart]

Explain to civilians what a claw hammer banjo is.

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's a style. Why don't you play a quick three finger lick?

[Alison Brown]

Yeah.

[Steve Martin]

And this is a claw hammer sound. That's it. But the difference is. And not the audience doesn't really need to know this. But she playing with picks on her fingers and plucking upward. And I'm playing climb with the back of my finger and striking down.

[Alison Stewart]

Allison just explained what she admired about your playing. What did you admire about her playing?

[Steve Martin]

Well, Alison is one of the great banjo players. She's one banjo player of the year from the international bluegrass Music association, which is not easy to win. And she also plays in multiple styles. I mean, we have songs on our record that are bossa nova, that are calypso, that are Irish, that are American bluegrass. So she's really the leader in those different styles.

[Alison Stewart]

The album is called safe, Sensible, and sane. Alison, is there an arc to the album, or is this just songs that you liked?

[Alison Brown]

Well, you know, we wrote these songs kind of one at a time without a specific theme or a specific agenda. Actually, we didn't really even think we were writing an album. We were just writing music together. But I do think there's an arc. I mean, the record starts off with just the two banjos talking to each other, just a little banjo conversation, and then builds up to, like, Steve was saying, like, some different directions that I don't think we really intended when we started off the bossa nova feel or Caribbean feel. And then at the end, we take it back to just the banches.

[Alison Stewart]

There's a song on it called New cluck old hen. It's a reimagination of an Appalachian tune, I believe.

[Steve Martin]

Yes. The song. Sorry, I have this little morning cough. The song is about 150 years old. I research it a bit, and it's always been one of my favorite melodies to play on the banjo. And I looked up the lyrics, and I was aware of the lyrics, and they struck me as, you know, like a 19th century kind of nonsense song. And I thought, geez, I hate to waste this beautiful melody on a. On a lyric that, to me, was, you know, kind of fun, but little silly as about a chicken that can lay either eight eggs or 10 eggs. And so I reimagine it, as we say today, and came up with new lyrics. And then we realized the song was a little bit misogynist, so we fixed.

[Alison Stewart]

That with Della Mae.

[Steve Martin]

This band gave a nice comeback at the end.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, let's listen to New Cluck Old Hen from safe, sensible, and sane.

[Steve Martin]

She took my dream she took my hope she got my house in Roanoke she sold my car she got my friends All I have for dinner is a taco hen. Right?

[Aoife O'Donovan]

You called me up. Can I come back? You got your bags already packed? I said, honey, you made your choice. She's your win, and I'm your loss. The kids are happy with their new dad, unlike you. He's a high school grad. We're as happy as A whippoorwill you can kind of red at the Red Cat Grill Cluck old hen Cluck old hen Cluck, cluck, cluck like a cluck old hen Cluck old hen Cluck old hen Nag, nag, nag like a cluck.

[Alison Stewart]

Old hen this new cluck old Hen from the album Safe, Sensible and Sane. My guests are Steve Martin, Alison Brown, and they're banjos. You mentioned the banjo has a rich history in the United States. It came to the United States from West Africa. Some people associate it with Appalachian music, but you use it in such different ways on this album. I'm talking about the song Michael, which has got a real sort of like bossa nova feel to it. When did you. When did you come up with the idea of mixing bossa nova and banjo?

[Alison Brown]

Well, that one the tune really told us. I had a melody that I'd figured out on the banjo, and Steve was really intrigued by it, and I honestly couldn't imagine where you could take it, besides making it kind of an obscure Newgrass banjo tune. And he really imagined a whole story to was fun.

[Steve Martin]

That sort of place where you sit and listen to the tune and imagine what is this tune saying? And come up with a whole story, which is, you know, I did a lot of the lyrics, I guess, on the show, and that's one I'm very proud of because Alison really wrote all the music and I wrote all the lyrics and told the story. And she said, you know, we can make this phrase a little shorter. I said, no, no. I like finding words that apply to those lines.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you want people to listen to in Michael when we play it? What part of it that you want people to sort of hone in on?

[Steve Martin]

The opening is not bad.

[Alison Brown]

The opening's good. And then I don't know if it's weird to go into the, like, the middle of the chorus with the repeat.

[Steve Martin]

Yeah, I like that. The middle. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, we're gonna play it and see which part of the song we have. Let's listen to Michael.

[Aoife O'Donovan]

This year was not such a good one. This year I'm bad out of luck I'm headed down on the down slope I can't fig Better to get it unstuck maybe a night in a cafe out on the patio I'll be the girl in the corner it's only me and my album videos A buzz on the telephone the name is Michael, old friend hello, can it be him from so long Michael was always the go to all class and all commage the Best. No stress. He can give you the bad news and still make you laugh. Michael, will you come and see me? Will you be the medicine? Remember when you were my lifeline? When we were just waiting for life to begin? He's here for only a day. Let's take advantage.

[Alison Brown]

Come on.

[Aoife O'Donovan]

It's always a good time walking with Michael. And you come along a little bit better if you come along.

[Alison Stewart]

I wanted to get to that part. So interesting. Whose voice is that we're hearing?

[Alison Brown]

That's the great Aoife o' Donovan singing lead and Sarah Jarrow singing harmony on that.

[Steve Martin]

Right.

[Alison Stewart]

Steve, when you're writing for music, you've written for tv, you've written for yourself. How is it different when you're writing music?

[Steve Martin]

Oh, well, I had to figure out how to write lyrics. I couldn't. I mean, yes, I did write the lyrics to King Tut, but I really had to think about it. And I was talking to Earl Scruggs one day, and I could figure out I could write a song for the banjo, but I couldn't figure out how to overlay lyrics. And so I asked Earl Scruggs, I said, what do you play when you play backup? And he said, well, I just play the melody. And I go, oh, so I can write a song and then write lyrics to my melody. Right, okay. It sounds like a simple thing, but it took me a while. You know, I think musical lyrics are more forgiving. You know, you might not put it in prosecution, but you can get away with murder.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, you've brought your banjos with you. What are you gonna play for us today?

[Alison Brown]

Well, we'll play a little bit of a double banjo tune. That's on the record, actually. But, you know, the essence of it. I really love the way the two banjos sing together. It's a tune that Steve came up with the title for. It's called let's get out of here.

[Steve Martin]

1, 2, 3.

[Aoife O'Donovan]

Yay.

[Alison Stewart]

Wait a second. I'm doing videos here.

[Steve Martin]

Microphone.

[Alison Stewart]

It's a one band band. That was Steve Marshall.

[Steve Martin]

It is so much fun to play with Allison. It just really is.

[Alison Brown]

I catch you, Steve.

[Steve Martin]

So fun locked together there.

[Alison Stewart]

Alison, you started playing banjo when you were a kid. You went to college, you went to Harvard, you got your MBA from ucla. When did it become clear to you, you know what? This is going to become my life's work? Playing banjo?

[Alison Brown]

Yes. Well, you know, I'm still thinking about it. Really. It's kind of an interesting profession. I don't know. I've always really, really loved the banjo. And I think it was a stint as an investment banker that really made me appreciate how much I love the banjo. When I realized that I just didn't have as much of an affinity for tax exempt as I did the music of Earl Scruggs. So. But it was really a series of baby steps and I get a chance through, you know, Compass Records, which is the label I co founded with Gary west, my husband, 30 years ago this year.

[Steve Martin]

Wow.

[Alison Brown]

And yeah, it's hard to believe. So we get a chance to like do the business side of things and support roots music that way and then play music too. So it's really the best of both worlds.

[Alison Stewart]

What was the moment when you were an investment banker and you thought, I'm not going to do this anymore?

[Alison Brown]

Oh, gosh, it was probably one of those all nighters with a, you know, proposal for a bond refunding somewhere.

[Steve Martin]

Sounds fascinating.

[Alison Stewart]

Steve, when did you pick up the banjo? The very, very first time?

[Steve Martin]

Well, I picked it up when I was about 16 and I made a mistake because I heard the banjo with the Kingston Trio and bluegrass music and I didn't realize there were two types of banjo. There's a four string banjo and a five string banjo. And so my girlfriend, girlfriend at the time, you know, I was 16 and she had. Her father had a four string banjo. So I'm trying to play bluegrass on a four string, which is impossible. And although Irish people can do it. And so then I, in my class was John McEwen, who became a member of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band and was a banjo player already. And they said, well, there's a guy who plays. So I went. And that's when I got straight, you know, I got a five string banjo and I paid $200. I still have it. And that's when I started playing.

[Alison Stewart]

And at first you incorporated in your comedy act a little bit?

[Steve Martin]

Well, yeah, because I'm, you know, as a young comedian, the thing that's the hardest to acquire is material. So I threw everything I had at it. I could play the banjo, I recited poetry, I did a magic act, I juggled. You know, I did everything to get it up to the 20 minute requirement. And if it was a bad night, you know, if the audience wasn't with me, my 20 minutes would shrink to 12.

[Alison Stewart]

How many banjos do you have, Alison?

[Alison Brown]

Well, I think that I only have about, you know, 15, but I'm told that I have quite a few more.

[Alison Stewart]

Do you have a favorite? A favorite one?

[Alison Brown]

Well, the one I'm playing Right now is one of my favorite ones. It was made in the Czech Republic in.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, it's beautiful. In Prague.

[Alison Brown]

Yep. By a builder who was so committed to learning how to play the banjo during. During the Soviet occup that he had to smuggle the Earl Scruggs book in text. Only figure out how to make his own banjo and how to plate his own picks. And it's really a great instrument. It has a great sound.

[Alison Stewart]

That's so beautiful. Just the way it looks is gorgeous.

[Steve Martin]

Banjos lend themselves to decoration. There's a lot of inlay on the neck and you can see I have another one that's. This is silver, but the other one's gold. Can be very fancy.

[Alison Stewart]

How many do you have?

[Steve Martin]

Well, I have about the same. I mean, you know, you gotta have one wherever you go, so.

[Alison Stewart]

Gotta be a banjo wherever you go.

[Steve Martin]

I mean, when I first started learning to play, I'd get a banjo and put one in every room. So no matter where I went, I didn't have to go back to the other end of the house to get it to help me learn.

[Alison Brown]

Perfect.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are Grammy Award winning musicians Steve Martin and Alison Brown. Were discussing their new album Save Sensible and Sane. Where does the title come from?

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's a confession that one of our songs is called Safe Sensible and Sane. It's sung by Jason Mraz and it has a calypso kind of beat to it.

[Alison Brown]

Yeah, definitely Caribbean vibe.

[Steve Martin]

But what happened was I was, you know, I'm a writer, so I have a lot of thesauruses and different books and kind of collect word books. And I had a book that was written in the 1930s on how to improve your letter writing. And there was one section that listed these phrases that were like, we should look them up. There's like one of things you can put in your letter, like thank you for the frank statement of your affairs. These are supposed to elevate your letter writing. And Safe, Sensible and Sane was one.

[Alison Brown]

Yeah.

[Steve Martin]

Anyway, there was a whole list and I thought they sounded like music lyrics so I copied them out, wrote them down. And then one day I just. And I said, alison, these sound to me like music lyrics. And she arranged them so they could kind of rhyme and then she set them to this, their, you know, calypso sound. And the truth is they're nonsense. But Jason Mraz, we all agree that the more we sing them, the more sense they make.

[Alison Stewart]

Honestly. Yeah. Even saying it out loud.

[Alison Brown]

And it's funny because that title, some, it didn't, you know, it doesn't come from this place, but it seems to tap into the zeitgeist right now of this. Like, people just want something safe, sensible and sane.

[Alison Stewart]

We're gonna listen to another track from the album, this is Dear Time. This features Jackson Browne on vocals. It's sort of. It's sort of reflective about life, definitely.

[Steve Martin]

Should I talk about it first?

[Alison Brown]

Sure, yeah.

[Steve Martin]

Well, I'm 80, and there's an adage for writers, write what you know. And I thought I should be able to look back in a way and put it into song. And I thought of the tone I wanted. I didn't want it to be angry. I wanted. Wanted it to be accepting. And so I put it in the style of a letter written to Tom.

[Alison Stewart]

This is dear Time.

[Jackson Browne]

Dear Time on this fair occasion I'd like to say you've given me more than what you've taken. Hey, Time Working well together I know it's not forever we'll both be moving on look what I've collected Box of memories somewhat disconnected Tied with twine each a small remembrance One inside the other on rewind Tonight I find them dim by wine.

[Alison Stewart]

Allison, what does that song make you feel about Time when you listen to it?

[Alison Brown]

Well, it's. It's poignant. I mean, just for myself and my own life. But then knowing that it comes from the pen of, you know, Steve's pen As an 80 year old, we're like reflecting back. I just think it's a. It's a pretty universal feeling, I think, really anybody over the age of 40 is relating to that song. And there's a line in there, you know, to throw the ball with my old dog one more time. You know, Steve was really worried about that being, I think, too maudlin.

[Steve Martin]

Yeah. Too sentimental.

[Alison Brown]

But I don't know. That gets me every time.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, I don't think.

[Alison Brown]

And I've never had a dog. It's really.

[Alison Stewart]

But I think it's really sweet, that line.

[Alison Brown]

Completely.

[Steve Martin]

Well, it's that this was our hardest birth, this. This song, because it was rearranged and kind of finding new lyrics and finding a chorus and, you know, all that. And so we had a lot of time to shape it. Then we. Then Jackson Brown sang it and, you know, we all have. I go back with Jackson Brown to when we're 17, we work the same club, Paradox and Tustin, and he was a noted songwriter very, very early on, but we both played the Troubadour and we have a whole history. We did a video at the Troubadour and It was very nostalgic for us.

[Alison Stewart]

I need to ask you one only Murders question.

[Steve Martin]

Sure, please.

[Alison Stewart]

Considering you're a podcaster, you've got headphones on for real. Did you ever get a chance to teach Marty the banjo? Martin Short.

[Steve Martin]

He has one one, no interest and two, no ability.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, there you go.

[Steve Martin]

So by the way, the only thing I had when I started was interest.

[Alison Stewart]

I would say you have ability now as well. My guests were Grammy award winning Steve Martin and Alison Brown. Their new album is called Safe, Sensible and Sane. Would you play us out a little bit?

[Alison Brown]

Sure.

[Steve Martin]

The swing song.

[Alison Brown]

Swing song, yeah.

[Steve Martin]

1, 2, 3, 4.

[Alison Stewart]

For.

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