← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
'Suffs' on Broadway Closes This Weekend
00:22:13
Actor Nikki M. James and director Leigh Silverman join us "Suffs" which is running at Music Box Theatre through Jan. 5.
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- [00:04]
Nicky M. James
Listener supported WNYC studios.
- [00:26]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Each year, millions of Americans cast votes during election season, a fact made possible by the 19th Amendment, which was passed hardly more than a century ago. The Broadway musical Suffs brings the fight for women's rights to the stage. Built around Alice Paul, a feminist and leader in the movement, it highlights the fight for equal rights, even though it rankled many. One of those figures is Ida B. Wells, who argued that the Suffs cared mostly about white women. The black journalist and activist is played by Nicky M. James, a Tony award nominated performance. Suffs won the 2024 Tony Award for the best book of a musical and best original score and was nominated in several other categories, including best direction from Lee Silverman. She also directed the recent revival of Yellowface starring Daniel Dae Kim. Suffs is closing on Broadway this weekend and about to embark upon a national tour. Lee Silverman joined us back in the fall along with actor Nicky M. James. I started by asking Lee what changes she knew she wanted to make when Suffs went from the Off Broadway theater at the Public to a Broadway stage.
- [01:36]
Lee Silverman
Well, I think Shaina had started rewriting before we had even closed at the Public. She had big ideas. I think because she is the star of the show, she could feel nightly where audiences were leaning in, where they were sitting back, where there was confusion. She could feel it. And as the writer, she was already coming up with ways that she wanted to reconceive. We have a brand new creative team uptown. We have a new orchestrator, we have a new choreographer. And the process of bringing the show to Broadway was an absolute joy of reimagining, revisiting, reconceiving and holding onto what felt like the core of our story and bringing it to a bigger theatrical landscape.
- [02:19]
Alison Stewart
When you were moving to Broadway, Nikki, were there new aspects of your performance that you wanted to approach in a new way?
- [02:26]
Nicky M. James
Yeah, I think one of the big changes that Shaina made from downtown at the Public, Uptown to the Music Box is bringing in a little more heart. I think she was so committed. The amount of research Shana Taub did, she should have an honorary doctorate in women's studies. The amount of research, the amount of books, and also her commitment to telling so many diverse people's stories. She felt like she wanted to have as many facts as possible. And then as we were moving uptown, there was an element of who are they really? And that's where, as a dramatist, her imagination plays a part. And that happened a Lot. With Ida's story, we get to sort of delve a little bit deeper into what Ida may have been feeling. Her own thoughts, her own doubts about the work she was doing. That was big. And then the big change that happened sort of in my personal life that really affects what's happening for me in approaching this character is between the public and Broadway. I had a child, so I became a mother. And that aspect of Ida's life was a thing that I didn't necessarily relate to as much before. Ida was a mother of four children, and she was doing all this work while raising a family. So that has really changed how I approach this character and my connection to her.
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Alison Stewart
Well, congratulations on the little one.
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Nicky M. James
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
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Alison Stewart
Let's play the song that really encapsulates.
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Nicky M. James
Your character, Wait My Turn, which.
- [03:53]
Alison Stewart
Which introduces us to Ida B. Wells. Let's listen to it and we can talk about it on the other side. This is from Suffs.
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Nicky M. James
Wait My Turn. When will you white women ever learn? I had the same old talk with Carrie Chapman Cat 20 years ago. I thought you might be better, but you still don't know. You want me to wait my turn to simply put my sex before my race. Oh, why don't I leave my skin at home and powder up my face? Guess who always waits her turn? Who always ends up in the back? Us lucky ones, born both female and black. Wait my turn.
- [04:46]
Alison Stewart
What's a line from that song that really, really captures who she's about?
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Nicky M. James
Oh, I think you want me to put my sex before my race. I think the intersectionality of being a woman of color and wanting to put forward women's rights and also realizing that you cannot separate. She can't separate her blackness from her womanness. And in this situation, she was thinking, so you want me to support this march at the time, you know, in our story, Ida arrives in Washington, D.C. and sort of storms into the office of Alice Paul and her and her team on the eve of this big march on Washington where Alice and her cohorts have asked black women to march in the back in order to sort of make peace with some of the Southern women who are saying, we would definitely want to march, but we don't want to march with those people. And that's a theme that I feel every day of my life, where you're asking, you can't separate these two parts of yourself. I think it's really. It's really poignant, and it really just, in just one sentence, gets right into the heart of this issue here.
- [06:03]
Alison Stewart
When you're thinking about all of the characters that are in the play, Lee, you have Paul and Wells, Wells and Terrell, Terry and Paul, Kat, go on and on. How do you begin to map that out? The interpersonal conflicts?
- [06:16]
Lee Silverman
I mean, it's about the conflicts, and it's also about the joy of working together in community. And so I think we wanted to have both the ability to show the tensions and also to show what it is for these activists to all want the same thing, to be pointing in the same direction, and yet have so many different ideas about how to get it done. And that felt like one of the most relatable, universal. Certainly the thing that I think audiences feel when they come to see the show is the idea of how do we work together in such a difficult and fractious time? I mean, the Suffs, what they were up against, what they. They had much. They had much fewer resources than we do now. And so I think in terms of conceiving the show, what I started with was today, my relationships, my friends, the people that I work with, the activists that I know. And to say, okay, how do we bring that sense of purpose, dedication, joy, heartbreak, the cost of what all of this kind of work does, how can bring that to an audience in a way that lets them say, yes, this is the story of then, but it is also the story of now.
- [07:30]
Alison Stewart
We're talking about Suffs with its director, Leigh Silverman, as well as actor Nicky James, who plays Ida B. Wells. There's this interesting subplot in the show. It's the relationship between Wells and against Mary Church Terrell, who is another black activist, educator at Black Dunbar High School. What did somebody say? Dunbar? You know what I'm talking about. How would you. Can you describe the viewpoints that Terrill and Wells each represent?
- [07:56]
Nicky M. James
Well, it's so complicated and nuanced, and we tried it. We just touched the little surface. We have two and a half hours, and we're telling lots of stories, and we have to sing along the way, too. But if we're thinking about Mary and Ida and we just look at their backstories, Ida was born a slave in the South. She was a person who was an orphan by the time she was 16 years old, raising her siblings and fighting that fight. And, you know, Mary had access to education. She had parents who had money. They were able to operate in circles in a different way. And from that, they have a sort of different perspectives. Mary had a way of kind of working within the system, befriending people, making alliances, whereas Ida was really just sort of railing and banging against the wall and. But when you read a lot of their writings, their diary entries and stuff, you realize they have deep, deep respect for each other. And in a lot of ways, they admire each other's ability to sort of come at this from different sides. So in our show, we show their friendship, their respect, their mutual respect and love that they had for each other, as well as sort of that tension of. I can't believe you're. You know, I have this line like, here you are again, you know, giving a speech for a bunch of white ladies, you know. And she says, why are you fighting me? I'm not the enemy. And I think that there's this really juicy situation where you're fighting with a person you respect and love. And then we have this moment towards the end of the show where the 19th Amendment has passed and we're on a phone call. A fictionalized imagination of how this news may have gotten to Ida, who wouldn't have been in Tennessee. And we celebrate for a second. And then Ida says, they'll still stop our women from voting. And then Mary says, I know. And then, you know, in that moment that they've won this one battle. And then they're going to continue to fight together alongside each other and sometimes against each other.
- [10:07]
Alison Stewart
Let's hear another song. This is from the track. The Convention, Part 1. It takes place during the 1916 National Women's Suffrage association convention. Its section features Wells and Tara. Let's listen.
- [10:20]
Nicky M. James
So you've agreed to speak at your hundredth white women's convention. Are you just here to sow dissension? Don't you resent that? You're a prop they trot out at events. NASA presents our rich little Negro mascot. Come here, Preach. See, we have no race hatred. We let Mary make a speech. If I didn't speak, they wouldn't even mention race. I tolerate their system. Cause that's the only way they'll ever listen to our case. But when the system wants you dead, what then? I can't have this out with you again. Why are you fighting me? I am not the enemy. Ladies, a photograph, please. We stand united.
- [11:10]
Alison Stewart
That's the best moment.
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Nicky M. James
Great.
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Alison Stewart
Your mother like, hey, yeah.
- [11:14]
Nicky M. James
Well, because the outward facing, what they have to face outside, is a show of unity. Because they realize they are fighting a bigger enemy here. But behind the scenes, they can really get at each other and change each other's minds. In a way, it keeps you honest. To have a collaborator and a colleague and a comrade who is reminding you every once in a while that there are more perspectives than just your own. And I think we can learn a lot from that lesson, that we can disagree while also still pulling in the same direction.
- [11:48]
Alison Stewart
You know, one of the big differences from the downtown version and the uptown version was the song Watch out for the Suffragettes. It was a vaudeville tune. All the actors dressed as men. This show begins with Let Mother Vote, which outlines sort of the conservative strategy of Carrie Chapman. Cat. It's also sort of the announcement of the show. Right. How much did this change? Reframe your thinking about the show?
- [12:12]
Lee Silverman
It was everything. All of the vaudeville that was in the Downtown production was taken out for Broadway. And I think one of the other major changes is that the show was mostly sung through, almost entirely sung through Downtown, a lot of recitative. And all of that was turned into a book. Tony winning book now for Uptown. And so I think the combination of losing the Vaudeville and adding scenes, traditional book scenes, to the musical reframed and reshaped so much of how the musical can be received. And I think that starting with Let Mother Vote, which is, first of all, why wouldn't you start a show with Jenn Colella singing? I mean, come on, we're no dummies. But also you have the layout of how the world is in the moment that Alice Paul enters it. This was the prevailing strategy, Carrie's idea of being polite, gentle, look, look at all of us mothers. The idea of NASA at that time, Carrie's organization had a strategy that. And by laying it out in song for us at the top of the show, gave us a world for Alice Paul to intersect with, try to join and then fight against and say, carrie, come on, let's get going. Like, what are you doing? We've been like this for 60 years. Let's do something new. And she really sets up one of the other major central tensions in our show, which is the intergenerational.
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Alison Stewart
Tens speak more about that. That's so interesting.
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Lee Silverman
So this is. We have all. We explore all kinds of different tensions amongst this community of people who are trying to get the vote. And the intergenerational tension between Alice and Carrie, I think it's also there between Mary and Ida. We see it in a number of different places throughout the show. But it is this very, I think, relatable idea that young people come into a movement and they say, what have you been doing? You're doing it wrong. I have a better idea. The Younger at the Gates, which is a big song at the end of act one, I mean, the top of act two, it used to be at the end of act one. And it is truly, I think, the anthem and something that we as a production are really honoring, celebrating and also trying to explore, which is for the people who have been there before, they also know something about how to get change to happen. We can't have success without both. We need Carrie and we need Alice, we need Ida and we need Mary. And sometimes they don't know they need each other. But I think part of what the show is exploring is that it takes us all.
- [14:56]
Alison Stewart
We're talking about Suffs with Nicky James, she plays Ida B. Wells and Lee Silverman, she's the director. You mentioned you had a child. How much did motherhood really shape the way you think about this show.
- [15:11]
Nicky M. James
Right now? AUDIENCE I'm trying not to cry. Becoming a mother changed how I think about not just this show, but everything in my career. What am I willing to leave my family for? What sacrifices are worth making? We live in a world where not every job that I take as an actor even will cover all of my childcare expenses. And so there's the practical concerns. And then also I have to think about what I want my legacy to be. I want my child to be proud that when I left the house and wasn't able to put her bed to bed any night for a year, that I was doing something that I both believed in and I thought made the world a better place. And so doing this show, being surrounded by a company of mostly women and female identifying non binary performers and being held up by this community. And when I, I was breastfeeding a young five week old child during a workshop back in the early parts of 2023, and knowing that those people had my back and then walking into on that stage every night and seeing audiences moved, seeing people see themselves, seeing people feel hopeful, seeing people see a history that they didn't know they were a part of and wanting to explore that makes it worth it. And then it also makes me think oftentimes, especially this show, which is looking backwards and forwards. You know, I'm a mother and my mother is still around and doing a really great job helping me raise my child. And the connectivity that Aliyah's talking about, the generational stuff, I have such a deep respect for my mom now in a way, you know, the way you roll your eyes and your parents know nothing. And now I realize, oh my God, she knows so much. And also you're. We're flailing half the time. Your child is asking A question. And she's only 2, and she still asks me questions that I don't necessarily know the answer to. And I think, wow, I have to give you an answer right now. But I'm also gonna sit with that and say, is that what I wanna say? Is that what I really mean? So I'm so proud. I continue to be so proud to be a part of this. And I know that my daughter, Ilo, will be proud of me, too, when she is able to really experience it.
- [17:28]
Alison Stewart
At some point, she said something really interesting there. They all had my back, everybody on the show. That's.
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Lee Silverman
That's.
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Alison Stewart
Do you think that's because of women, Largely women? Do you think it's the group of people you have.
- [17:39]
Lee Silverman
Oh, boy. You know, I think Broadway specifically has not been a very hospitable place for women in general. I've had a number of experiences where women designers that I've hired, actors have said, you know, I'm pregnant or I'm having a child or I need childcare. I need to have a place for my breast milk. You know, any of those kinds of considerations. That is not what Broadway was essentially built for. And it's been a real joy and honor in my career to be able to. When I can use whatever influence I have to change that. And it was essential to this company that Nikki felt that way. And we made sure that she could be breastfeeding if she wanted to in the rehearsal room while she was learning music and getting notes, you know, and that. That was. Was part of it. Because I think that kind of integration is essential if you want mothers and parents in your workplace. And it's up to the people who are in charge of those workplaces, I think, to figure out how to make it more hospitable and at least to ask the question, how can I. What do you need? And you can't always answer that question or satisfy with an answer. But I do think that being curious about how to make something possible is a good way to.
- [19:01]
Nicky M. James
Yeah. And this is. I don't know if it's because we're all women or mostly women, or if it's just the people who are attracted to telling this kind of story are those kind of people who are thinking about community more than they're thinking about the individual. But it is always nice to know that the people you're working for are walking the walk and not just talking the talk and the people that you're working with. Yeah, it's been. Yeah, I can't say enough good things about that aspect of it. As hard as it has been, it's been also a great joy and I'm very proud that this show is going to be a part of my story of being a mother.
- [19:39]
Alison Stewart
It was announced the show is going to close on January 5th and it's going to go into national tours.
- [19:44]
Lee Silverman
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
Why should someone who hasn't seen Suff make time to see it before it closes?
- [19:51]
Lee Silverman
I mean, where to start? I think, you know, it's a.
- [19:55]
Alison Stewart
Because the tickets are so expensive. Yeah. I always say that on this show.
- [19:58]
Nicky M. James
Yeah.
- [19:59]
Alison Stewart
You have to like, really want to see a show.
- [20:01]
Lee Silverman
You do.
- [20:02]
Alison Stewart
So somebody who's like, I'm gonna save up, I'm gonna go see Stuffs.
- [20:04]
Lee Silverman
Yes. I will say we have a rush every single day for cheaper tickets. We have. There's a number of different ticket initiatives that are in place right now. So if you visit our website, it's. There are a lot of different opportunities here. I do want to say that Stuffs is a very unique theatrical experience. I think the opportunity to see this show right now, leading up to the election and post election, it's giving you something. Not just an entertainment and not just history, but an opportunity to feel hope, to sit in a room and feel the feelings with a group of other people who care potentially about the kinds of things that you care about, which is progress and possibility and being part of a bigger community. And it feels like this show, right now, in this moment, until January 5th and then when we go on the road, is hopefully bringing people together to feel inspired, to continue to make change in their own communities as well.
- [21:06]
Nicky M. James
I always say that this show is hopeful without being naive or cynical. And there's so much entertainment that leans into, you know, the worst aspects of the world. And this is not. This is about the best aspects of people and about community. But acknowledges that it is difficult that it's, you know, it's without. It's not Pollyanna at all. But it's also not saying, you know, yeah, it's not cynical. And Shaina Taube's music is extraordinary. She is an unbelievable dramatist and songwriter. And I'm telling you, you're not gonn see a more talented group of people who love each other more on stage. So if you're gonna spend your hundred dollars on something or your $150 on something, I think Suffs is the one. And we're not around for that much longer, so you have a lot of time to see all the other stuff. So come see Suffs.
- [22:07]
Alison Stewart
That was actor Nikki M. James and director Lee Silverman speaking about the Tony Award winning musical Suffs, running at the Music Bok Theater through January 3rd before the show embarks on a national tour. See the show while you can. NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City. By sponsoring programming like NYC now, you'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.