Tom Francis (3:11)

Hello.

Alison Stewart (3:12)

So I want to ask you. Let's go on the way, Way, way, Way back machine.

Tom Francis (3:14)

Let's do it.

Alison Stewart (3:15)

When did you first hear that Sunset Boulevard there might be a revival?

Tom Francis (3:19)

This would be about a year and a half ago, I reckon. A year and a half ago. I found out through my agent I was doing another show and I just finished and I decided that I was going to take some time out of theater for. For a bit because I'd been doing some shows for, like, quite a while, and eight shows a week. It takes its toll on your body. So I was like, I just want to have a. I want to have a bit of time to reset and. And so I went away and sort of hid in a studio and wrote music and stuff for. For a few months. And my agent called me and went, there's a. There's a. There's a show which I think we should put you in for. And I was like, what is it? She went, sunset Boulevard. And I went, okay. She went, jamie Lloyd's directing. And I went, okay. She was like, angeloid Webb is attached. I was like, okay. I was like, this sounds cool. So, yeah, so then we went in, did quite a few auditions for it, and then now we're here, and I can't really believe that we're doing the show on Broadway.

Alison Stewart (4:21)

I heard you had to do nine different auditions.

Tom Francis (4:23)

Yes, it was quite intense over two weeks.

Alison Stewart (4:26)

So what did the audition. What did it consist of?

Tom Francis (4:29)

The audition consisted of a lot of the material. So there was about four or five songs for Joe, like some of the narration parts. Sunset Boulevard, the title track, and then the last song, which I've completely forgotten the name of, but it's like the. It's in the Sunset Boulevard vein. And then a few of the narration parts in the. And a few of the scenes. So, yeah.

Alison Stewart (4:53)

When did you start to think during those nine auditions, like, oh, I might have gotten this role?

Tom Francis (4:58)

I reckon around about the third or fourth. Because, yeah, I reckon around about the third or fourth, I was like, it felt so good being in the room. Like, I just really clicked with Jamie. I really clicked with Alan Williams, our musical supervisor and like, Fabian Aloise, our choreographer. I'd worked with him before at drama school. And he knows that I'm not potentially the strongest dancer of all time. And so you did a pretty good job. I say, thank you. I move. And he knows that I'm a mover. And there was one of the auditions, he was teaching me some of the choreography, and he took extra time with me, shall we say, to make sure that I did it to the best of my abilities. And when people go the extra mile, I was like, well, this can only be a good thing. And it turned out to be good.

Alison Stewart (5:54)

Jamie Lloyd is so interesting. I mean, he did Betrayal on Broadway, Cyrano at Bam. A Doll's House, Jessica Chastain. He's a very cool sort of stylized director. What had you heard about working with Jamie Lloyd or what his process was like?

Tom Francis (6:10)

I hadn't heard much about his process because I was pretty fresh out of drama school, so I didn't know enough people to sort of have an insight as to what the process of putting on one of his shows was. But I'd. I'd seen one of. Yeah, I'd seen some of his stuff back in London, and he. And I just remember being like this. This man, the way he uses everything, like, he truly directs a show, the way he uses, like, sound design and the way that he uses lights and the way that he likes. Does crazy things with sets and costumes and stuff, he truly directs. So I was just like, I have to work with his brain at some point. So then getting the opportunity to was just out of this world. I mean, he really does find a way to get to the essence of everything. I think that's the really incredible thing about him is he fully knows how to get to the heart of you as a performer, and he knows fully how to get to the heart of the show. And I think stripping everything back like we do in the show, that's how he does it. Because there's no fluff. There's nothing for you to get distracted on. You've just got the words and how they're being said. And when you make it that simple, it's just so effective.

Alison Stewart (7:25)

What did he help you, Tom, understand about Joe Gillis, when you first had to engage with the character of Joe?

Tom Francis (7:34)

I think that the words are enough. I think I came in at the beginning and I felt like I was doing. I came in and I was very much like, cut out that ass business and doing, like, a character. And he was very much just like, you know, you need to just. Just say the words. And that. That was how I got in to the character, like, Literally, Don Black and Christopher Hampton and Andrew, they've written this incredible show and it's all there. You don't have to do much. You really don't have to do much. That's what he taught me.

Alison Stewart (8:08)

There's this great picture of Andrew Lloyd Webber standing next to Jamie Lloyd, and Andrew Lloyd's very posh, and Jamie Lloyd looks like the coolest guy you'd meet in a pub. He's got tattoos, silence down his face. And what do you think is special or unique when he takes on a classic? Because I just mentioned two classics. Cyrano, A Doll's House. I think he's doing the Tempest now with Sigourney Weaver.

Tom Francis (8:32)

Yeah, he is. I think it opened like yesterday, tomorrow or something. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (8:37)

So what is it about, what does he do with a classic that makes it modern?

Tom Francis (8:41)

He just. He respects it and he throws nods to the original productions and lets it do its thing, but then also completely and utterly shifts the focus and shifts the lens on how the story can be told.

Alison Stewart (8:59)

My guest is Tom Francis. He plays Joe Gillis in Sunset boulevard at the St. James Theater. You spend a little time. Time in a body bag.

Tom Francis (9:07)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (9:07)

On stage. What goes through your mind as they are zipping you into the body bag?

Tom Francis (9:12)

Remember all the lines. I think that's normally what's going through. I don't know. I just. Deep breathe. I try and just sort of slow my heart rate down and I just try and focus in and. Because I don't really have any time to reset off stage because I'm on stage for most of the show and so. So, yeah, I just try and get myself into, like, as much of a Zen space as possible, which is a bit counterintuitive being in a body bath because, like, yeah, it's obviously not a natural place to find yourself in eight times a week. But, yeah, so that's what I do. I just. Deep breathe.

Alison Stewart (9:49)

Also, in your role, you utilize these cameras. It's a little bit like a Steadicam and you have to hold it on your lap initially and you project it onto this huge screen. First of all, how heavy is the cam?

Tom Francis (10:00)

The camera is so heavy.

Alison Stewart (10:02)

It's really heavy. Right?

Tom Francis (10:03)

The camera is really heavy. And actually just shout out to Shane McPherson, because I feel like you're probably. Are you going to talk about the walk around at some point?

Alison Stewart (10:09)

We will.

Tom Francis (10:09)

Okay, well, I'll save it for them.

Alison Stewart (10:10)

Okay.

Tom Francis (10:11)

But, yeah, no, they are. They are really. They are really incredibly heavy. I'm not sure how many pounds, but I think they're Actually heavier than London as well. But, yeah, there's a lot of stuff on the rig.

Alison Stewart (10:22)

How long did it take you to learn to use it? To use it? Well.

Tom Francis (10:27)

Well, I'm lucky because I only have to use. I only have to use it once where I hold it.

Alison Stewart (10:32)

Okay.

Tom Francis (10:32)

And the rest of the time I'm getting shot with other people. But for me, I'm quite lucky. I mean, I'm sat down holding it, but I'm doing a car driving sequence. Like, it's like a car chase. And I kind of learned early on that if I. If one shoulder's sore, I can just lift it up and then it looks like I'm steering.

Alison Stewart (10:51)

Okay.

Tom Francis (10:52)

So then. So then I'm kind of just doing that, so I'm switching the weight over. So. So that's how I kind of get past that.

Alison Stewart (10:58)

How do you go back and forth between performing for the house, the people in the house, to the back of the house, but then also performing for the cameras?

Tom Francis (11:09)

Yeah, it did take a while. We have an incredible video team shout out to Joe Ransom and Nathan Amzai. They are sort of the brains behind how the cameras work and with Jamie, how the shots look. And so it was a lot of conversations of them being like, just trust what you're doing and maybe don't do that eyebrow because it looks so huge.

Alison Stewart (11:34)

On the big screen. Right, exactly.

Tom Francis (11:36)

And so. And it just kind of becomes a muscle memory where, like, now it feels unnatural to not be switching between this tiny performance where the camera's less than a foot away from your face or giving a performance out to sort of 1700 people. So now it feels. It feels quite good. But it did take a while. It took a lot of them being like, stop looking at the screen.

Alison Stewart (11:57)

I say, what did you see when you first saw how huge your face was on the screen?

Tom Francis (12:00)

I was like, wow, I need a skincare routine. But, yeah, no, no, it was. It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. But. But that was a moment where we were all like, this show is going to be incredibly special because we just never had. I remember, like, they told us not to talk to people about it, but I remember going home and talking to my mom and dad and my brother and my sister about it. So I knew I could trust them. And I just remember being like, so this is the kind of vibe of the show. And they were like, that is completely and utterly unheard of. It's not. It's not. It's not done in British theater. Like, it's. It's groundbreaking. I was like, yeah, this is. It feels really special.

Alison Stewart (12:43)

It's interesting because the costumes are fairly minimal. They're black and white and for the entire cast. And sometimes when you talk to actors like, oh, the costume gets me into the role, you know, I'm curious, what do those costumes do for you? Which are very subtle and very, you know, one note almost.

Tom Francis (13:02)

For me, it's probably more about. It's probably more about my body language with the costume. Me and Jamie decided that I'd have my hands in my pockets for a lot of the show, and so that kind of was a massive in for me. And so having my hands in my pockets just sort of. At least I've got pockets on my costume.

Alison Stewart (13:28)

My guest is Tom Francis. We're talking about Sunset Boulevard. He stars as Joe Gillis. If you had to describe Joe's arc in this piece, what would Joe's arc be?

Tom Francis (13:42)

He starts off incredibly, incredibly disillusioned with a pretty tough industry. And as he works his way through, he kind of gets offered a deal with the devil, almost, which he ends up taking and sees what it's like to have a substantial amount of wealth and things that he's never had before. And I think it always plays with him because he's a very intelligent man, and I think that he's sort of very confused as to why he's ended up in the position that he's ended up in and eventually decides that it's not the life that he wants and that he was happier at the beginning. Before it all becomes too late.

Alison Stewart (14:34)

Is it true that initially you were told not to watch the movie?

Tom Francis (14:38)

Yeah, I've still not watched it.

Alison Stewart (14:39)

You've still not watched.

Tom Francis (14:40)

I'm not allowed to, no. We're very. We're very.

Alison Stewart (14:43)

Wow.

Tom Francis (14:43)

We've got. We've got, like. We've got very. Not. They're not rules, but they're. They're. They're tenets. Yeah, they're sort of I. Ideal ideologies behind the show in. In which that, like, we've created our version and it's very important for us to sort of keep that as intact as possible. So. I've never read a review. I've never watched or I've not listened to our album yet. Like, the. That's probably like, one of the. I mean, I've heard Sunset, but it's been all over the social media. But, like, I've not listened to any of the other songs. Yeah, I watched the Olivier thing, but that was the first time that I saw myself do the thing. And, yeah, We've never. We've never seen anything. We've never watched anything to do with ourselves because we don't want it to mess with the production.

Alison Stewart (15:34)

Well, I'm going to make you listen to something in just a minute.

Tom Francis (15:37)

Well, yeah, we can do it. We can do it. It won't mess it up too much.

Alison Stewart (15:41)

Well, let's listen to this clip of Jo and Norma, who's played by Nicole Scherzinger, and she had a little bit of a clue that Joe is having an affair with Betty. This is from Sunset Boulevard.

Tom Francis (15:53)

You went out last night, didn't you, Jo? I went for a walk.

Alison Stewart (15:57)

You took the car.

Tom Francis (15:58)

I drove to the beach.

Alison Stewart (15:59)

Who's Betty Schaefer?

Tom Francis (16:02)

Surely you don't want me to feel like a prisoner in this house. You don't understand, Joe. I'm under a terrible strain.

Alison Stewart (16:16)

It's been so hard. I even got myself a revolver. The only thing that stopped me from killing myself was the thought of all those people waiting to see me back on the screen.

Tom Francis (16:32)

How could I disappoint them?

Alison Stewart (16:36)

All I ask is a little patience, a little understanding.

Tom Francis (16:45)

Norma, there's nothing to worry about. I haven't done anything.

Alison Stewart (16:54)

Of course you haven't.

Tom Francis (16:57)

Good night, my darling. I should have stayed there. Poor Norma. So desperate to be ready for what would never happen. But Betty would be waiting. We have the script to finish. One unexpected love scene. Two people both risking a kind of happy ending so much. Wow. That's a good job with the album, right?

Alison Stewart (17:29)

You and Nicole didn't meet until the first day?

Tom Francis (17:33)

Yeah, yeah, the first day.

Alison Stewart (17:35)

How did you develop. This is such a boring question, but it is interesting. How did you develop your relationship on stage? I think it's interesting.

Tom Francis (17:44)

No, I think. Yeah, I think it's great. The. So basically, we have this. We have this method in the. In the Jamie Lloyd Company, which is a gridded method. And there's. There's a grid on the stage, and everyone's feeding into this idea of the grid. And so we spent a lot of time sort of trying to move at the same times and trying to. Like, we. And yeah, you kind of like you have three different paces. You can run, you can walk, you can. And then you could, like, sprint, you can change, you can go as far, whatever, but it's all on a grid. And so we spent a lot of time in the first few days, the. Mainly the four leads. David Thaxton, Grace Hodgett, Young, Nicole and myself. And basically we spent a lot of time sort of figuring out this grid method, and it's really weird because you become, when you surrender yourself to that idea and everything, you become really, really aware of the other people on stage. It's almost like a spider web kind of thing. So. And everyone's their own spider, but any type of vibration on that grid, you are completely aware that they're there. And especially with some of Jamie's direction, there's loads of the show where we're not even looking at each other, but we're having conversations. And that idea and having that foundation was the. Was the most incredible thing for all of us because it just meant that we were so connected with each other in a really special and beautiful way. So it felt really natural when we started.

Alison Stewart (19:16)

It's interesting because Mandy Gonzalez is playing on Tuesday. She's playing that role and she's kind of a Broadway legend. I mean, she was in the Heights originally. She was the second Angelica Huston and Hamilton for six years.

Tom Francis (19:29)

And now she's absolutely kidding. It's unsympathetic.

Alison Stewart (19:32)

I was going to ask you, this is your first time on Broadway. What have you learned from her? From performing?

Tom Francis (19:37)

From Mandy? God, she just eats it up every single time. She just really knows how to come in and just go do it. Here we are. Yeah. She's so in it. It truly is. It is remarkable watching her every single day. Well, every Tuesday. Sorry.

Alison Stewart (19:55)

We'll have more with Tom Francis after the break. This is WNYC Studios is supported by GiveWell. When you make a big purchase, say.

Tom Francis (20:03)

A car or a new mattress, how do you make sure that you're making the right choice? GiveWell provides an independent resource for a different kind of purchase, a donation. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate.

Alison Stewart (20:17)

First time using GiveWell. When you go to givewell.org and pick.

Tom Francis (20:21)

Podcast and enter WNYC at checkout, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. The first time college student Hisham Awartani was shot, it was with a rubber bullet at a protest back home in the West Bank. The next time he was shot, it was on a quiet street in Vermont and the bullet was real. On kirite. Join me on the next Notes from America as we wrap up our series on a young Palestinian man, a survivor of violence and trauma whose recovery depends on how he defines what it means to be home. Listen wherever you get your podcast.

Alison Stewart (21:01)

All of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Tom Francis. He plays Joe Gillis in Sunset boulevard at the St. James Theater. All right, we're going to talk about the beginning of Act 2. You leave the theater, you're singing the title song. You have to walk across 44th street into Shubert Alley, back through the theater. It's a six minute stretch. What is really important to you as an actor in that six minutes when you leave the theater?

Tom Francis (21:42)

Breathing.

Alison Stewart (21:42)

Breathing, yes.

Tom Francis (21:44)

Just remember to breathe. Just remember to breathe. Breathe. And just lock in with. With our camerawoman. We've got. We've got a fantastic camera woman called Shayna McPherson. Hi, Shayna. She's genuinely the beating heart of our production. She does quite a considerable amount of the shots in the show. And she carries that camera down seven, eight flights of stairs on a twisting staircase. This camera is so heavy as well. Like, I. Like, I would really struggle. I think most people would really struggle to Harry this camera for that long. And she just does it effortlessly. And then. And then. Yeah, and then we leave. We leave. And so, yeah, I'm very supported by her. I just kind of lock in with her. I look in with the camera and then everything else kind of goes blurry. In fact, there's a picture. There's a picture that I think the New York Times have. And in the picture I'm blurry, but everyone else in the background is in focus. But for me, when I do the walk around, it's like the opposite.

Alison Stewart (22:55)

The opposite.

Tom Francis (22:56)

So I'm completely. And you know that film Limitless?

Alison Stewart (22:58)

Yeah.

Tom Francis (22:58)

I use this as like, as an example. It's like that. So, like, you're walking through and everything is going. And then you're just. You're just in the zone.

Alison Stewart (23:08)

What is something that you see or you have seen that we can't see because we're just focused on you and the camera and you're thinking, oh, my God, there's a bunch of Girl Scouts coming at me. What's. What has come at you on site? On that street in London, we had.

Tom Francis (23:22)

Quite a few bridesmaids, which was. Which was an interesting one, but they got siphoned off sometimes. Deliveroo drivers, they look quite confused. And Uber eats drivers. Yeah. But to be fair, you predominantly see. Most of you will see everything that I will see, but you normally see the reaction afterwards. So I'll see, like, I'll see the person being asked to move out the way, and then the audience will see the confused look as a crazy man with a headset is singing Sunset Boulevard, but, like, through the streets of New.

Alison Stewart (23:55)

York and You're also. It's just you singing.

Tom Francis (23:58)

Yes. I mean, that's what's wild.

Alison Stewart (23:59)

That's.

Tom Francis (23:59)

Yeah. If you're watching me, it does just look like I've lost it. And I. I'm walking around singing Sunset Boulevard, but I've got the orchestra in my ears. But to everyone else, it does look like I'm doing the song Acapella.

Alison Stewart (24:11)

You have such a strong voice, but it can also be a really. A modern voice. Have you ever thought about putting out a record?

Tom Francis (24:18)

Yes, yes, we are. We are. We are in the process of that.

Alison Stewart (24:24)

Really, as we speak. Because if you go on your Instagram and you scroll back, you can see you performing, like, in the stairwells. We actually found this clip of you performing. It's like on a beach.

Tom Francis (24:35)

It's a beautiful day.

Alison Stewart (24:36)

Let's play that.

Tom Francis (24:38)

Holding me back Gravity's holding me back I want you to hold up the palm of your hand why don't we leave it at that? Nothing to say and everything gets in the way.

Alison Stewart (24:59)

When did you first start singing?

Tom Francis (25:02)

When I was like. I love Harry.

Alison Stewart (25:05)

Harry Styles, by the way. Yes.

Tom Francis (25:07)

I probably started singing when I was about 11, I reckon. 12. 11, 12. And then, yeah, I kind of loved it.

Alison Stewart (25:18)

In one of those interviews, like, backstage at so and so, I think it was Anne Juliet, they said, what's your prized possession? You said, oh, my guitar.

Tom Francis (25:24)

It is, yes.

Alison Stewart (25:25)

Why is your guitar your prized possession?

Tom Francis (25:27)

It's just such a fun thing to have. It's just such a. It's such. I think they're beautiful. I genuinely think guitars are beautiful and I think it takes so much skill to make them and it's so fun to like, be able to just sit down and. And play it. And I don't. Yeah, yeah. I just. I just. I love. I love how guitar sound and I love playing guitar.

Alison Stewart (25:47)

Do you do it to relax now?

Tom Francis (25:49)

Yes, yes. Yes, 100%. It's the best relaxation.

Alison Stewart (25:53)

I read that you are going to be on our TV screens, computer screens in you.

Tom Francis (25:59)

Yes.

Alison Stewart (26:00)

Do you know when it's coming out?

Tom Francis (26:01)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say. I'm actually. I didn't ask anyone if I could say that, actually. That's one that I will. I will ask, but. But no, it's. It's. It's not. Not too long away, I don't believe. But I'm so excited for it to come out. It's the first TV thing that I've ever done.

Alison Stewart (26:17)

Oh, really?

Tom Francis (26:18)

Yeah. My first ever TV job. So it was a bit of a baptism by fire, but it was incredibly fun and the entire team there is just fantastic. I couldn't, I couldn't have wished for a better first job in TV that everyone from the cast, the crew, the.

Alison Stewart (26:34)

Producers, everyone, you're a little busy right now. If someone who watches goes to see Sunset Boulevard, what is one place in the show that you want them to pay close attention to? Either because it means a lot to you, or you think it's a really poignant part, or you just think it's really cool the way they were able to do it.

Tom Francis (26:55)

I think there's a few. There's with one look for me is very special because I just think that it's, I think that it's just brilliant writing from the boys that they just smash an 11 o'clock number about 15 minutes into the show. I think that's just brilliant. So that is one of them. And the other one would be let's do lunch, because I get to go absolutely crazy in that number. And exerting that much energy is very fun. So that would be it.

Alison Stewart (27:27)

You can see Tom Francis as Joe Gillis in Sunset boulevard at the St. James Theater if you want to hear him. The album's out now.

Tom Francis (27:33)

Yes. Go and stream it.

Alison Stewart (27:36)

Really nice talking to you, Tom.

Tom Francis (27:37)

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Alison Stewart (28:09)

This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship wnyc.org.