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All Of It with Alison Stewart
The Breakup of R.E.M. (Full Bio)
00:19:10
This month's Full Bio selection is the new biography of the band R.E.M.
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- [00:04]
Ira Flatow
Listener support WNYC Studios.
- [00:16]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Today is our final segment of Full bio featuring Peter Ames Carlin, the author of the Name of This band is R.E.M. a Biography. We learned about the individual stories of members Michael Stipe, Peter Buck, Bill Barry and Mike Mills, how the band started their rise among alternative music folks, and then they're bursting forth into the mainstream, all while maintaining a commitment to social issues like climate change. The band moved to Warner Brothers from IRS in August of 1996. They made a deal for $80 million. That's $156 million today. But band members began to see things differently and they wanted different things. Bill Barry was the first to leave, and their longtime manager split under tense circumstances. Here's our final full bio conversation on the name of this band is R.E.M. with Peter Ames Carlin.
- [01:30]
Michael Stipe
Your life is bigger it's bigger than you and you are not me the links that I will go to the distance in your eyes oh, no, I've said too much I set it up that's me and in the corner that's me in the spotlight Losing my religion Trying to keep up here and I don't know if I can do it oh, no I've said too much I haven't said enough I thought that I heard you laughing I thought that I heard you sing.
- [02:38]
Alison Stewart
Bill Barry seemed to really want to tour the big stadiums. Once they got big enough. How did the rest of the band feel?
- [02:48]
Ira Flatow
They were all ambivalent, including Bill. I mean, one of the interesting things about Bill Barry, you know, when you think of the drummer of a band, you know, even a drummer who is as definitive a part of the sound as, say, Charlie Watts in the Rolling Stones or Dave Grohl in Nirvana, you know, the guy that plays the drums tends not to be crucial to the band's songwriting and to the band's kind of, you know, formulation of its image and idea. But Bill Barry was very crucial to REM on every level, not just as drummer, but as a songwriter, as an editor of the other guys'the, other guys writing, and as the guy who, coming into the band had actually had experience working in a booking agency in Macon and had come to understand, you know, how a rock, the business of being a rock band, especially when it came to touring. So when REM Were trying, you know, the very early REM Were trying to make the leap from just being a college basement band who played parties to be in a band that could get booked at, you know, at clubs, not just in Athens or Atlanta, but also on the Southeast. Bill was the guy who knew who to call, how to set up a series of dates and, you know, and what was required when the, you know, three quarters of the band were still in college, but they were beginning to play more. He was one who said, we all have to drop out if we're going to really pursue this. And essentially told the other guys, if you don't, if we don't all drop out of school, then I'm not going to stay in this band, you know, I'm going to find another band to join. Because that's what, you know, if you really want to make a play, this is what you have to do. So he had this real solid sense of the mechanics of the music industry and was very instrumental in how they built their career and how they became as big as they became. But really the moment they began to succeed, you can sort of see him beginning to fade a little bit. That there was, as much as he loved playing music and as much as he loved the idea of becoming successful, the actual labor of being successful and doing all the things it took off stage, which is to say all the traveling and the publicity stuff and the glad handing folks here and there, you know, it was anathema to him. I mean, he tolerated it because it was his job, but he didn't care for it at all. And they got to this point in the early 90s where their first big arena tour, which was promoting the green album in 19, which came out in 1988, and it was a year long world tour. When they finished that tour, they decided we're not going to tour again for the foreseeable future. They had been on the road for basically an entire decade at that point, so they figured that was a good time to take a break. But it also coincided with the moment when they made their two most popular albums, you know, out of time and then automatic for the people back to back albums that sold more than 10 million copies in the early 90s without them touring, which was astounding at the time since touring was how you promoted a record. And then they started work on the next album, 1994's Monster, sort of with the express purpose of making an album that they were then going to take on the road. So when they went on the road for this world, or, excuse me, year long world tour in 1995, you know, Bill was the one who said, we're Going to play the biggest arenas that we can play. Because Peter had talked about maybe just going back to the clubs, you know, and doing it that way. And Bill was like, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going backwards. So they went out to do this big tour sort of at his, you know, due to his inspiration and insistence. But you can sort of see again the ambivalence as they're at this press conference with MTV on the eve of them starting out on their, you know, to head to Australia. The reporter says, you know, Bill, what are you most looking forward to on this tour? And he says the end of it, though he was obviously also very excited and happy to go. And of course, then their story takes a major shift when partway, you know, just a couple months into the tour, they were playing in Switzerland, Bill had an aneurysm on stage and nearly died and had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency brain surgery. But thanks to, you know, good luck and happenstance, they just happened to be in La Seine, Switzerland, where they had, like, some of the most sophisticated brain surgeons on the planet, some of whom had just developed a new, you know, new ways to, you know, to heal these, these. These, you know, aneurysms. And so, you know, Bill had this very close brush with death that took place on stage, of all places, in the midst of the biggest tour they ever had. You know, nearly died and then spent six weeks recovering and was back on stage in the US to play the rest of the year's shows.
- [08:07]
Alison Stewart
The name of this band is R.E.M. a Biography. It's by Peter Ames Carlin. It's our choice. For full bio, let's talk about Jefferson Holt. The band met Jefferson Holt when they started out. He was their talent manager for 15 years. He was alleged to have sexually harassed a woman in their office. He went away. Yes, we'll say. And I'm gonna read this. I'm gonna read this from the LA Times, okay? Why would a rock manager resign at the moment when his band is about to cash in on the most lucrative recording contract of its career? That was the question buzzing through the music industry last month when Jefferson Holt abruptly stepped down as a manager of rem. The superstar rock quar just completed the latest album on its Warner Brothers Records contract and is poised to become one of the hottest free agents in the music business. Sources say that Holt was asked to leave after members of the group investigated allegations that he sexually harassed a Female employee at REM's tiny Athens, Georgia office. The band members don't talk about him. He does not talk about it. What was unusual about the way this separation went down?
- [09:15]
Ira Flatow
Well, you know, in an article like the Times piece there, it's really easy to delete to some conclusions. You know, one of them being that they tossed this guy who was a, you know, a profit participant, right before they were signing a huge new deal with Warner Brothers. And so maybe there's some financial perfidy taking place that they're ditching this guy so they don't have to pay him for this big deal. But on the other hand, you know, or you could say, well, it's because of the sexual harassment thing. Actually, I think largely what it. You know, it came down to a whole array of factors, as these complicated things often do. You know, Jefferson was a hugely crucial member of their cooperative in the early days and was very central to them kind of developing their sort of group sort of aesthetic, their sort of group ethic of, you know, what kind of band they were going to be and how they were going to present themselves. You can see him in those early videos in the 80s. He pops up on practically all of them as a kind of central figure, which tells you something about how central he was and how, you know, how important he was to, you know, to the entire band and to Michael Stipe in particular. But then as the years go by, you know, and as people grow up, I mean, it's one thing when you're in your early 20s and you don't really know what you're doing to lean on a manager and have someone who is sort of an authority, who's a little older than you, sort of explain to you what you should do and, you know, and how these things are going to work. But after you've been at it for 10 or 15 years, you know, you need that less because, you know your, you know, you know your business better and you know who you are better, and you've been in this job for, you know, 15 years, so why do you need to have a guy sort of say, well, this is what you should do next, Or I think this is how things should go. And at the same time, I think Jefferson was losing interest in the job. People talk about him on that 95 tour, you know, whereas once he had always been around, you know, like to be there to answer whatever questions and do whatever needed to be done. At this point, there were so many other members of their support network that Jefferson would just kind of go off and go to museums and sightsee, really, you know, sort of touring around the world. And so they're becoming a little. They need him less. He is less involved in what they're doing. And at the same time, he is, you know, according to these stories and according to other things I've heard, he's engaging in relationships with people in the workplace that, you know, maybe weren't as welcome as he had hoped they would be. And there were misunderstandings, you know, to put it as gently as possible. And it got to a point where somebody complained. And when the band members. Members heard her story and heard some other sort of supporting evidence, they decided that they couldn't continue with Jefferson anymore as part of their central office. And so they had a. So he left the company and left them. And it was very bitter at the time. And now, practically 30 years later, it's nearly as bitter as it's ever been, which to me is a little. It's sad, you know, but, you know, I mean, the one thing though that's, that's interesting is that for a band that really prided themselves on being sort of progressive, not just in their art, but also in the way they went about their business, you know, they kept their offices in Athens, you know, they never, you know, you know, they never moved to LA or New York or ditched their original advisors for big time, you know, show folks, you know, showbiz people, you know, and they always tried to have an office where they would, you know, recycle things and be kind of like sort of the very model of a good, you know, socially progressive, environmentally conscious organization. The idea of. Of having someone in, you know, someone at the heart of their operation who may have struck at least some people as a sexual predator was unacceptable to them. And in a way, you know, I mean, especially in rock and roll, which is always was and to a great extent remains a boys club. It's sort of. It's interesting to note that years before such concerns really began to resonate with anyone else, they were very quick to, you know, to side with the, you know, the, the, the. The employee who felt felt abused against, you know, essentially the head of the office and sent him away and really sided with the woman who had felt, you know, wronged in their relationship.
- [14:09]
Alison Stewart
Bill Barry left the band in October of 1997. They didn't replace him. The next time all four of them were together was in 2007 when they were inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. Let's listen to a bit of Michael Stipe.
- [14:24]
Michael Stipe
I would like to personally thank Peter, Mike and Bill for providing me the least likely Candidate to have a place in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame with a gang who not only accepted me at face value in 1979, but allowed a frankly fantastical teenage dream to become an adult and lifetime reality. Thank you, guys.
- [14:51]
Alison Stewart
In 2011, the band broke up. Was it amicable?
- [14:57]
Ira Flatow
I think so. I mean, you can. Yeah. I mean, I think anytime that you're involved in such a intense collaboration for decades, you know, working with people that you met and established relationships with when you were still a teenager or very close to one, I think it makes for, in some ways, awkward relationships as you get older and, you know, move into middle age and beyond, you know, and having these very sort of integral relationships with people that were formed, you know, when you were still an adolescent. Nevertheless, I mean, one of the things about REM That I think distinguishes them from most other bands was that they were in a way, sort of uniquely emotionally mature. Even from the beginning, you know, when we were talking about how they decided to, you know, to divide all the credit and the royalties equally as a way to avoid having conflicts later, they were always engaged with one another on an emotional level and sensitive to one another's feelings and, and, and, and needs. And I think that, as you know, there's still always going to be creative tensions because not everybody is feeling the same thing at the same time as somebody else. You know, someone might, you know, somebody might want to go off in a different direction that the others don't want to go in. Then you have to work out a compromise of some sort. And that isn't always an easy way, you know, an easy process. And they definitely have had their moments of, you know, you know, fighting and yelling and storming off, you know, and then eventually coming back together again. And I think, you know, you get to the end of a 30 year career, you're probably a little bit burned out with your co workers, you know, and yet, nevertheless, there was never been a time when they have at least publicly disagreed in any way or been visibly alienated from one another. And one of the things that's sort of sweet about them is that throughout their post, you know, band years, you still see them coming together in pairs and sometimes threes to work on different projects or just pop up on each other's stages as one or the other side projects is, you know, coming through town to play music together and to just kind of hang out. You know, when Peter got married in Portland, Portland in about 2013, I think all the other members of REM came into town to, you know, to go to the wedding and to. And I think there was some music playing at the, at the reception, though they made a point for many, many years of never having the four of them together on a stage. So if three of them were up, the fourth one would sort of excuse himself and, you know, go out into the crowd or leave the room and, you know, go get a breath of fresh air until they finished playing music. Then that fourth person might come and play with some other people. But nevertheless, you know, they've always, I think they've always really enjoyed one another's company and have always been, you know, it's nice in, you know, in a business and in a, you know, a part of showbiz where so many artists and bands break up in so many, you know, vividly awful ways to see this one group sort of maintain their closeness and they're caring for one another despite everything.
- [18:25]
Alison Stewart
The name of this band is R.E.M. a Biography. It's by Peter Ames Carlin. Peter, thank you for spending so much time with us.
- [18:34]
Ira Flatow
It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
- [18:36]
Alison Stewart
Thanks again to Peter Ames Carlin. His book was not a sanctioned biography, but he said in the acknowledgment that the band quote, never stood in my way and all found ways to be kind from afar. Full bio is of post. Production was done by Jordan Loff, engineered by Jason Isaac and written by me. I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.