Podcast Summary:

Podcast: All Of It
Episode: "The Brothers Size' Reunites Andre Holland and Tarell Alvin McCraney"
Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Date: September 3, 2025

Overview of the Episode

This episode explores the revelatory 20th-anniversary revival of Tarell Alvin McCraney’s play The Brothers Size, now running Off-Broadway at the Shed. Host Alison Stewart brings together playwright (and co-director) Tarell Alvin McCraney and acclaimed actor Andre Holland, who were both involved in the original production and have since gone on to major achievements, including the Academy Award-winning Moonlight. The discussion unpacks the play’s complex exploration of freedom, brotherhood, incarceration, African spiritual roots, and the evolution of their collaboration twenty years on.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origins and Personal Impulses Behind The Brothers Size

• McCraney’s Motivation:
  • Written alongside Moonlight shortly after the loss of his mother (00:36).
  • Aimed to process family grief and create meaningful roles for himself and friends as theater students.
  • The enduring themes: confronting questions of family, loyalty, incarceration, and dreaming together as a form of freedom and healing.
  • Quote:

    “The delicious thing about it, the nurturing thing... is that we are sitting down talking about these questions about family, about loyalty, about incarceration, unfortunately, and how they affect black life specifically...” — Tarell Alvin McCraney (02:48)

2. Andre Holland’s Return in a New Role: Then and Now

• Holland originally played Elegba, now plays Ogun (04:09).
• Changes in his approach:
  • Personal growth, including the death of his own father, deeply impacts his understanding of sacrifice and care.
  • Quote:

    “There was... I had a wonderful father that not a day went by that he wasn’t in my life... now at this age, I’m asking myself, what might it have cost him to be as present as he was?” — Andre Holland (04:54)

  • Reflects on gratitude and childhood memories, likening his father’s support to the relationship between Ogun and Ochusi.
  • Memorable Moment:

    Story about fishing with his father—how his father would “make me believe I could do things that I didn’t know I could do.” (05:31)

3. Directing and Artistic Collaboration

• McCraney steps in as co-director due to logistical complications (06:49).

  • Praises the collaborative, technology-aided process with Bijan Sheibani, highlighting trust and long-term creative partnership.
  • Describes the unique challenges and responsibilities of directing, centering performer support and story clarity.
  • Quote:

    “The director specifically is in service of the performers and the company trying to find a single story to tell... I am constantly checking my curiosity, my own bias, my own instincts against the generosity of these actors...” — Tarell Alvin McCraney (08:05)

• On specificity in theater (09:22):

  • Holland emphasizes how McCraney’s direction pushes for “extraordinary specificity,” which unlocks universal resonance:

    “He encourages me... invites me into a greater sense of specificity and always has.” — Andre Holland (09:33)

4. African Spirituality, Names, and Identity

• Deep Dive Into Yoruba Roots:

  • McCraney discusses the personal and cultural reasons for using Yoruba orisha names and motifs (10:56):

    “How I learned about these, the orisha, was through stories I heard on the streets growing up in Miami... They felt like people in my life... to be connected to that divinity was something that I felt like the world wasn’t allowing us to have. And so I wanted it.” — Tarell Alvin McCraney

  • For Holland, the roles demand blending both the spiritual and human aspects, citing the constant interplay between research (Ogun’s dance) and personal emotional connection (12:22).

5. Physical Staging and Performance in the Round

• Staging Choices:
  • Music’s foundational role is inspired by August Wilson’s advice to always have music as an artist (13:00).
  • The play’s staging “in the round” intensifies specificity and audience engagement (13:18).
  • Holland reflects on the technical and emotional demands: clear language projection, audience inclusion, and the direct-address moments that collapse distance (14:08).

6. Protection, Brotherhood, and Sacrifice

• On Ogun’s Protective Instincts:

  • Holland asserts Ogun “would do anything” for his younger brother, pushing beyond hardness to sacrificial love (15:15).
  • McCraney echoes the play’s focus on mutual sacrifice, selflessness, and joy within oppressive systems, emphasizing their roots in real, lived brotherhood and friendship (15:32).

• Interpersonal Limitations and Growth:

  • Ogun’s initial inability to fully see his brother's needs and difference; ultimately, his journey is one of understanding individual freedom within connection (17:09).

7. Symbolism of Cars and Freedom

• McCraney explains cars’ deeper meaning in the play:
  • In Southern culture, cars symbolize mobility, autonomy, and the elusive promise of freedom denied by systemic barriers (19:04).

    “They did typify some sort of freedom that wasn’t there before... There's a power in that.” — Tarell Alvin McCraney

8. Political Resonance: Then and Now

• No changes to the text, but increased anger about what remains the same (20:35):
  • McCraney reflects on the bitter reality that issues of incarceration and systemic injustice have not meaningfully changed since the play’s inception.
  • Quote:

    “There’s something looking at a play that’s 20 years old and, like, not having to change a word of it... but also, I mean, there have just been days I’ve been so angry, like shakingly mad at the carceral system...” — Tarell Alvin McCraney

9. How Theater Inspires Change

• Broadening Notions of Freedom:
  • Holland reflects on changing concepts of freedom—from personal to societal, encompassing migration, protest, and everyday resistance. The play invites audiences to interrogate freedom’s true meaning in today's climate (22:01).

    “One of the things I hope comes through in the play every night is that we challenge or invite people to think about what freedom really means now, today...” — Andre Holland

10. Shout-outs and Artistic Community

• Praising co-stars Alani Alangwe (Ochusi) and Malcolm Mays (Elegba), plus musician Munir for their vibrant contributions (23:00).
• Celebrates community energy both in the play and Holland’s new film, Love Brooklyn, noting the supportive audiences and creative fulfillment from taking on a romantic leading man role (24:12).

Memorable Quotes and Moments by Timestamp

• On the Yoruba inspiration:

  “To be connected to that divinity was something that I felt like the world wasn’t allowing us to have. And so I wanted it.”
  — Tarell Alvin McCraney [11:30]

• On acting specificity:

  “You can always be more specific. That’s one thing I love about acting, is that even when you think you got it and you think you know what you’re talking about, you can always go deeper.”
  — Andre Holland [10:16]

• Recounting paternal wisdom:

  “He made me believe I could do things that I didn’t know I could do.”
  — Andre Holland [06:21]

• On seeing friends as family:

  “I’ve experienced a kind of friendship that knows no bounds, that people will get on a plane in the middle of whatever they got going on just to see how you doing.”
  — Tarell Alvin McCraney [16:30]

• Political frustration:

  “There have just been days I’ve been so angry, like shakingly mad at the carceral system, the ways in which we treat people who were formerly incarcerated.”
  — Tarell Alvin McCraney [20:45]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Play Background — 00:07–02:35
• McCraney’s Motivations & Personal Loss — 02:36–03:59
• Holland’s Shifted Perspective — 04:05–05:24
• Lessons from Fathers — 05:24–06:44
• Directing Dynamics — 06:47–09:13
• Role of Specificity in Acting — 09:22–10:27
• Yoruba Spiritual Influence — 10:56–12:51
• Staging and Performance Challenges — 13:00–14:29
• On Brotherhood & Sacrifice — 15:02–16:46
• Symbolism of Cars — 18:47–20:18
• On Political Resonance — 20:18–21:48
• Art and Social Change — 21:48–22:54
• Cast & Crew Acknowledgements — 23:00–23:38
• Love Brooklyn Film Shoutout — 23:41–24:47

Conclusion

Through a multifaceted discussion, Alison Stewart, Tarell Alvin McCraney, and Andre Holland peel back layers of The Brothers Size—from its spiritual underpinnings and political context to questions of freedom and devotion. The episode highlights how art, rooted in specificity and lived experience, continually adapts to confront new realities and provoke deeper thinking in both artist and audience.

Recommended for:
Theater lovers, those interested in Black art and culture, anyone concerned with issues of incarceration, and fans of powerful, relevant storytelling.