← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
The Brothers Size' Reunites Andre Holland and Tarell Alvin McCraney
00:25:01
Actor André Holland and playwright Tarell Alvin McCraney reunited for a revival of McCraney's 2005 play "The Brothers Size" after working together on the Oscar-winning film "Moonlight."
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- [00:08]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. We're really grateful that you're here today. We'll wrap up our summer reading challenge with producer Jordan Loff and your calls. We'll also check in on the US Open with Caitlin Thompson of Racket Media. We'll recap the tournament so far and make some predictions for the final rounds. And we'll talk with debut nominated novelist Zoe Dubno about her new novel, Happiness and Love. So let's get this started with a show running at the Shed. It is the 20th anniversary of Terrell Alvin McCraney's fraternal fable the Brothers Sighs. It is a show about freedom. In the written play, it says, quote, the brother Sighs draws on elements from the Yoruba cosmology, meaning a sense of culture. The oldest brother, Agun Sighs, is named after the deity of iron and craftsmanship. He is strong and steady. Then there's his youngest brother, Ochusi, who's a bit looser. His name means lightness and goodness. But Ochusi does get hot and acts up when his older bro reminds him that he was locked up. Ochusi doesn't want to go back to prison either. However, there is a person in his life, another ex con who understands and allows Achusi to be himself. But will this friendship cost him his freedom? The Off Broadway revival of the Brother Sighs is running at the Shedd's Griffin theater through Sunday, September 28th. Joining us to discuss is Academy Award winner Terrell Alvin McCraney. He's known for the film Moonlight. He wrote and co directed this show, which was originally the second play as a part of the Brother and Sister play series. Terrell Welco.
- [02:02]
B
Thank you. Thank you. I really need you to read that description to us before rehearsal today.
- [02:07]
A
Oh, okay.
- [02:08]
B
I was like, that's so good. Thank you.
- [02:09]
C
Thank you.
- [02:10]
B
All right, remind us what the story is.
- [02:12]
A
And also joining us, you can hear him laughing, Andre Holland. He starred in moonlight and is also the leading man of the new romantic drama film that he produced as well, Love Brooklyn, which is in theaters now. It's nice to see you as well.
- [02:23]
C
Good to see you, too. Thank you for having us.
- [02:24]
A
Of course, a lot has changed in 20 years when you think about when you first wrote the play. What were your goals and then how did they change over those 20 years when you went back to the show?
- [02:36]
B
It's so funny. I was just talking to Andre about this five seconds ago. You know, when I first wrote this play, I wrote this and in Moonlight, Black Boys with Blue, around the same time.
- [02:49]
A
Oh, really?
- [02:50]
B
My mother died of AIDS related complications in 2003, in August of 2003. And I sort of just wanted to write about my family, wanting to put them down. And as a student in theater, as a theater artist, I just was trying to make roles where I could work out some of these hard questions with my friends, get on stage with just the stories and us and really do it. And yeah, those impulses are still there. I mean, when we come to the work now, the delicious thing about it, the nurturing thing about it, the nutritious thing about it is that we are sitting down talking about these questions about family, about loyalty, about incarceration, unfortunately, and how they affect black life specifically, and the ways in which just us dreaming together in the dark can set us free in a way. And so, you know, I think I have to thank 22 year old, as I call him often, because he gave me a little gift that I can keep going back to to find some nourishment and to gather my community to do so.
- [04:00]
A
Andre, this is not your first time with the play, but you played a different role originally.
- [04:05]
C
I did.
- [04:06]
A
You played Elegba.
- [04:09]
C
Thank you.
- [04:09]
A
Yeah, but now you're playing Agun. What was new to you when you had to approach the role of a goon as opposed to Elegba?
- [04:19]
C
So much of it is new, you know, I mean, so much of it. One of the things when I did Elegba, I was obviously a much younger man and had a lot more energy, Allison, you know what I mean? But also, you know, one of the things that's true is that when I did it back then, my dad was still alive. He passed away three years ago, as Terrell knows. He was there at the service. And I think my understanding of the play has been shaped by that experience. You know, the play is, as you say, about freedom.
- [04:50]
B
It's about love, it's about brotherhood. It's also about sacrifice.
- [04:54]
C
And I think that, you know, there was, you know, I had a wonderful father that not a day went by that he wasn't in my life. And I think I maybe took that for granted. And now at this age, I'm asking myself, what might it have cost him to be as present as he was? You know, what did he give up in order to be the wonderful father that he was? And I think Ogun finds himself in a similar situation, having to nurture and care for and sacrifice on behalf of his younger brother. And I think that now I have a. A much deeper understanding of what that is.
- [05:24]
A
What is something that your dad taught you, a lesson that your dad taught you as a little kid that you still keep in mind every day.
- [05:31]
C
Oh, my God. So many things. So many things. Well, I mean, you know, being kind, being generous, taking care of community are things that are always there, I think. You know, one thing I've been thinking about lately is gratitude. We used to go fishing a lot when I was a little boy, and he'd do this thing where he'd take and cast my reel way out into the lake. And he'd give me say, okay, now you just reel it in and take your time. Reel it in slow. And that would give him a chance to do a little fishing, right? And every now and again, I get frustrated not having caught anything. And then he'd hook a fish, and then he'd give me his reel and he'd take mine and say, there must be something wrong with yours. Let me see it. Why don't you hold on to mine for a minute? And I'm holding it, and then I start whining. I said, daddy, I think I got a fish on here. I think I got a fish. He said, boy, really, man? Really, man. You're a good fisherman. Oh, my God. You know, and in a way, he made me believe I could do things that I didn't know I could do, you know? So, yeah, that I carry with me often.
- [06:32]
A
My dad told me, don't let the a holes grind you down.
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C
That's good.
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A
That was one of the big things in corporate America and making your way. Don't let those people grind you down. You do you.
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C
Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful.
- [06:47]
A
You stepped in as co director this time.
- [06:50]
B
Yeah.
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A
Why?
- [06:52]
B
Good question. Very good question. You know, we were working with. We are working with Bijan Chevani on when we started for the production at the Geffen, and Bijan's schedule got complicated, Got very complicated. And, you know, Visa, things were happening. And all the. All the fun things that happen when you're trying to do an international collaboration with the person you've known for 20 years. And so I said to Bijan, you know, should we wait? And he said, terrell, I don't think we can wait any longer. I don't think we've been waiting for a while to get to this place. I don't think we can. And I said, well, you know, I think we tend to be of a mind about these things in the time that we've collaborated on the play at least four times. I don't know that he and I have been so far apart that we couldn't talk ourselves to the middle of something. So with the use of technology and the generosity of our actors, we decided that I would step in as co director. It is not an easy fit for me, but it is something that I felt compelled to do.
- [08:02]
A
What do you understand about directing now that maybe you didn't really understand before?
- [08:06]
B
Oh, I think I understand what. I understand a lot about directing and always have and which is why I try not to. To do it. You know, it just, it is we, we are all in service of the play, but the director specifically is in service of the, the performers and the company trying to find a single story to tell. I mean, there's a. We're, we're many headed storytellers, but we're trying to find the focus together. And so I am, you know, constantly checking my curiosity, my own bias, my own instincts against the generosity of these actors who are bringing in all kinds of things. That knee jerk reaction could be the thing that unlocks the play or that next scene, or even the changes someone's life. You know, that instinct. I have to recognize that that instinct on stage at that time could shape someone's new thinking. And I have to be open to that. And staying open to that, you know, it is a job, it is a career, clearly, because people do it.
- [09:13]
D
What did Terrell guide you as a.
- [09:16]
A
Director that really stuck with you that you thought, I can use this?
- [09:22]
C
So many things, Allison. Matter of fact, before we came in the studio, we were in the green room back there. He was giving me some guidance for tonight's performance.
- [09:31]
B
But I mean, some equity don't hear that.
- [09:33]
C
Oh, sorry. Yeah, we weren't supposed to, but you know, really, really just trying to put a real fine point and like a real clarity on the story that we're telling at the ending of the play. It's a very delicate thing that happens. I don't want to give it away, but, you know, it could be interpreted as any number of things. And I think what Terrell is amazing at is going in with a scalpel and making things extraordinarily specific. And it's only through that specificity that the play opens up and becomes, you know, at risk of using a trite word, universal or timeless. You know, so he forces me, he encourages me, I should say, invites me into a greater sense of specificity and always has.
- [10:14]
A
Were you not being specific, you?
- [10:16]
C
I think I'm fairly specific, but there's one thing about theater, you can always be more specific. That's one thing I love about acting, is that even when you think you got it and you think you know what you're talking about, you can always go deeper.
- [10:28]
D
My guests are actor Andre Holland as well as playwright Terrell Alvin McCraney. We're talking about the Brothers Size, which is running the shed through Sunday, September 28th. So it's a modern day fable which is inspired in part by West African spirituality. Why was that important to you to name your characters after orishas and Yoruba culture?
- [10:57]
B
I don't know why I suddenly got emotional. It was they. How I learned about these, the orisha, was through stories I heard on the streets growing up in Miami in ballets by the Peter London Dance Company and others. People like Jeffrey Holder creating ballets about the orisha and the lau and these deities, these folks, they felt like people in my life. I would see them, I would see their attributes in my cousins and my brothers and myself. And to be connected to that divinity was something that I felt like the world wasn't allowing us to have. And so I wanted it just to be frank. I wanted. I mean, we had, especially in grad school and undergrad, I spent so much time looking at the Richards and the Johns and the Henrys, and at no point was anybody allowing for the royalty and the divinity that came from my portion of the world to be on stage. And so I just thought, they don't need necessarily crowns, but these names will glow them.
- [12:14]
D
Did you focus on the deities aspects, Andre, or did you focus on the human aspects? Or a combo?
- [12:22]
C
Yeah, a combo. It's kind of both. You know, matter of fact, Tarell just shared just last night, a video with me of this dance company performing Ogun's dance. Right. And so that was just, you know, last night. And so I'm already thinking today about, wow, how can I bring some of that in? And then, you know. But the day before yesterday, we were in the text talking about, what is this brother trying to do for his brother just as human beings. So it's kind of both things.
- [12:52]
D
The staging of the show, there's music that's playing when we first come in. Why was that important to set up the show?
- [13:00]
B
Well, August Wilson told me when I was his assistant, his very bad assistant at Yale, he bought me my first ipod. And he told me that you must always have music as an artist. And clearly music is throughout his work. And I have never looked back since that day.
- [13:18]
D
And were you always going to be. Was it always in the round?
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B
No, brother, size isn't always in the round. This production has always been thought of in that way. But, you know, I've seen many productions and worked on productions that have been in proscenium and thrust round in the round. To me forced myself and the actors, I think, to really get specific. Again, it makes us really have to go, look, we don't have any place to hide. It's just us. It's bodies in space. And it also just leans into that thing that I really love, which is the dance element of this. I come from a long line of dance. Again, these stories were introduced to me through ballets and dance first. And so I always want to make sure that that is present, that our bodies in space calling on these stories are essential.
- [14:09]
D
I think, Andre, the sort of nuts and bolts of it all. What is something you have to be mindful of as an actor when you've got audience on all four sides of you?
- [14:20]
C
So many things. One thing for sure is just making sure you could be heard. Because that space is a beautiful space of the shit. And I gotta say, they've done an incredible job and have been so wonderful to us.
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B
Really? Yeah.
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C
You know, but it's a challenging space in that you have to be very specific again, with the way you use language in order for the back row to hear what's happening, you know, so that. That's one thing, I think also just, you know, in the play, as you saw, we have moments where we do direct address to the audience and then drop back into the play. And so it's about, I think, also making sure that everybody feels seen and included and involved. Which means like a sort of 360 full body acting experience in the play.
- [15:03]
A
Your character is so worried that his younger brother is gonna slip up and end up in prison. What lengths will he go to to keep his brother out of prison?
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C
I don't think there's anything he won't do for his baby brother. Despite his hardness and his anger and his frustration and all that stuff. At the end of the day, there's nothing he wouldn't do. And I think he'd go to the ends of the earth as he does in the play.
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A
Is that the way you saw it when you wrote it?
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B
Oh, yeah. I mean, again, these stories were stories about great sacrifice, but also great joy. At the same time. There is something preternatural about the ways in which these men show up for each other. All of them show up for each other because we're Ogun would do anything for Ochusi, but Ochusi would do anything for Ogun, and Elegba would do anything for Ochusi as well. That's the great quandary here. In a world that is constantly siloing them and actively, as Ochusi says, telling them something's wrong with them. These men are, in their ways, flawed and all, doing their best to save each other, to uplift each other, to give them what they need to find freedom. And I always thought, wow, I've seen that. I've experienced that. I've experienced that being friends with Andre. I've been with Glenn, with Sterling. I've experienced a kind of friendship that knows no bounds, that people will get on a plane in the middle of whatever they got going on just to see how you doing.
- [16:47]
A
Andre, when you're thinking about how an older brother is treating a younger brother, what does Ogun, what is he missing? What is he missing the mark with trying to get his younger brother to not behave, but to just move forward? Because part of it is he's kind of hard at the beginning. He's really hard on the kid.
- [17:10]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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C
He's tough on him, I think. I mean, on the one hand, I think he doesn't really see all of who Ochusi is. That's one thing that he's not able to see. I also think that Ogun believes that if he does things the quote unquote right way, he can make an existence for himself that is relatively safe and secure and somewhat enjoyable. But I think that Ochusi understands something that Ogun doesn't, which is that there's a kind of inherent fugitivity, I think, in their being that one has to embrace. And I think Ochusi is aware when he says what you say, he says, everywhere I look, people are telling me that something's wrong with me, right? And, like, I want to go and experience the world, but every time I try and do it, the world or these forces in the world foreclose on my desire to be a full human being. And I think Ogun doesn't understand that entirely until the very end of the play, aided by Elegba. I think Elegba opens his eyes partly to that.
- [18:09]
B
Oh, yeah. And I think it goes back to that thing that your father said to you, Alison, which is that the world will have a prescription for you. They will have what they think of as your space and your lane. And when you know that you're not a runner but a track star, right, you need More space, and you have to go at your own pace. And I think Ogun catches up to that, or trying to. He's trying to see that they run different races, and that doesn't make them not connected. It makes them more connected.
- [18:47]
D
It's really interesting because a car becomes a metaphor in this show. Your character, Andre, he owns. He runs a shop, he fixes up old cars. And Ochusi really, really wants a car.
- [19:01]
A
He just really wants a car. What does he want the car for?
- [19:05]
B
Tyrell, growing up in the south and Dre, you could talk about this. I mean, like, growing up in the south, that's all everybody wanted. You know, in Miami and in Fort Lauderdale and in my family in Georgia, they. You know, all the boys at a certain age is all they talk about was cars and the symbolism of cars. It's the reason why car companies could get us so easily with those slogans. Right? Because they did. They did typify some sort of freedom that wasn't there before. An ability to get away, an ability to go whenever you wanted to, and autonomy. And I think that feeling was fresh in my mind at writing it, and it still is. I keep thinking about, you know, those characters Ovochusi and Elegba riding in those cars, But I also think of Ogun fixing those cars. The ability to take something that can transport and make it better and suited up for a person and fit it to their need. That's incredible. There's a power in that. And sometimes we denigrate that to just transportation, but for some people, it means so much and so much more.
- [20:18]
D
This is an interesting question. Somebody just texted this in. I have been so excited to see the brother sighs. Considering the political times we are in now, has anything changed from the way it was performed originally?
- [20:35]
B
The way it was performed? No. The way in which I get angry. Yeah, you know, there's something. You know, Barry actually said this when we were doing Moonlight. It's like there's something sort of bittersweet about either being the first or being. But there's something looking at a play that's 20 years old and, like, not having to change a word of it, especially the circumstances around policy. That both makes me glad I'm working on it, but also, I mean, there have just been days I've been so angry, like, shakingly mad at the carceral system, the ways in which we treat people who were formerly incarcerated. We have better language now, thankfully, but good God, like how? Yeah, so, yeah, that has changed. I was upset then. I think the fury at looking back and thinking and hoping. Wishing. Wishing then that this would help or things like this would help change. Yeah, I'm more mad at me than I am at anybody else.
- [21:48]
A
Well, don't be mad at yourself. I don't think so. Well, how do you. How. This is a big question. How do you think art can change? How can a play like this change the way people think?
- [22:02]
C
Well, you know, I think I'll say for myself, and it's kind of connected to what Terrell was just saying. I feel like, you know, for me, my ideas of what freedom means have shifted on this, you know, in this production, particularly as related to, like, the political climate we find ourselves in. I think, you know, 20 years ago, I wasn't thinking about freedom in the way I'm thinking about it now. And I think my ideas of freedom now have broadened to include, you know, people who are, you know, showing up for an immigration hearing and being detained or people who are, you know, just trying to live their lives or peacefully.
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B
Protest or whatever it is.
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C
You know, that freedom seems like it's constantly being foreclosed on at this point in time. And so I feel like one of the things I hope comes through in the play every night is that we challenge or invite people to think about what freedom really means now, today for these men in this play, but also for the whole culture.
- [22:55]
A
Before we run out of time, I want you to give a shout out to the other actors in the play. Tell us a little bit about them.
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B
Alani, Alangwe and Malcolm Mays, incredible artists to be collaborating with. They Alani plays Ochusi and is facile and has an incredible voice. Malcolm Mays, too, has a beautiful voice and a dexterity that we were just singing his praises. So I want to shout out those brothers. Please come and see all three of these incredible individuals.
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C
And our amazing musician, Munir.
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B
Oh, Munir, brother from Atlanta, who just came in and was just banging on these drums so bad. So, yeah, we were there until 28 September at the Shed period.
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A
Go.
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D
See you in a theater, though. In love, Brooklyn.
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A
Can I ask about that real quick?
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C
Yeah. Thank you. Yes. We opened at Angelica Cinema last week and we did. Congratulations, man. Thank you. We did really, really well. I think we posted, they said, the fourth highest opening or like specialty box office opening of the year so far, which is incredible. The community really showed up. We go wide this Friday, September 5th.
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B
That's amazing.
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C
We'll be all over the country and we hope people continue to come out and support the movie.
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D
We talked to Nicole Beharie about it last week. We had her on and it was. It was interesting.
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A
It's. It's sort of your first big lead, isn't it? Yeah.
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C
Yeah. Well, technically, my first big lead was written by this gentleman. We did High Flying Bird together. Yeah. Which he wrote for me. And this is. But this is my first, like, romantic lead, I would say.
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D
What was hard about that.
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C
Oh, man. Producing.
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A
Woo.
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C
It wore me out. It wore me out. But I'm so proud of the movie and so proud of what we made and ready to do it again, strangely.
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B
Nice.
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D
Except the bikes, man. You are not in the bike lanes.
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C
You know everybody.
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A
You were not in the bike lanes.
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C
Okay, to be fair, Allison, there aren't that many bike lanes in Brooks. So maybe we need to, you know, start a petition for those bike lanes. You know what I mean?
- [24:47]
B
Urban development right there.
- [24:51]
A
I've been talking to Andre Holland and Terrell Alvin McCraney.
- [24:54]
D
The brother size is running at the shed through Sunday, September 28th.
- [24:58]
A
Thanks for coming in.
- [24:59]
C
Thank you. We appreciate it.
- [25:00]
B
Good to see you.
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E
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I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer. Climate change. Genetic engineering. Childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship. Wnyc. Org.