Podcast Summary: "The Cover-Up" Spotlights Investigative Journalist Seymour Hersh

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Laura Poitras, Oscar-winning director
Air Date: December 22, 2025

Main Theme

This episode explores the life and career of Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour "Sy" Hersh through the lens of the new documentary "Cover Up," directed by Laura Poitras. The conversation addresses Sy Hersh's landmark stories, journalistic ethics, the challenges of investigative reporting, and Hersh's enduring impact on American journalism and democracy.

Key Discussion Points

Genesis of the Documentary & First Encounters

• Initial Pitch: Poitras describes pitching the Hersh documentary 20 years ago, inspired by Hersh’s groundbreaking stories, especially Abu Ghraib, and her own frustrations with mainstream journalism's shortcomings in the post-9/11 era.

  • Quote: "I was feeling a lot of despair about the state of journalism, quite frankly, not asking hard questions." (01:21)

• Sy’s Reluctance: Hersh initially refused due to his fierce commitment to source protection, often needing to leave the country to meet sources safely.

  • Quote: "He called me up. He said, there's no way that I can work with you because of source protection..." (02:02)

• Persistence: Despite initial rejection, Poitras kept in touch for two decades, ultimately convincing Hersh after completing her film on Nan Goldin.

  • Motivation: "I'm very worried about the state of investigative journalism... it's so vitally important to our society and to have to hold power accountable, particularly government power." (03:02)

Sy Hersh’s Approach to Sources and Journalistic Ethics

• Anonymous vs. Single Sourcing: Poitras distinguishes between using anonymous sources versus relying on a single source. She emphasizes the need for editorial oversight when anonymous sources are used, especially to avoid uncritical government spin.

  • Quote: "Using anonymous sources is very problematic... But in the film, you meet somebody... who was terrified of what the government would do to her. In that case, anonymity is absolutely appropriate." (03:37)

• Source Protection and Controversies: Addresses the notorious case where Hersh received forged letters—important to note he never published them.

  • Clarification: "He... never published them. They discovered early and they were never published." (04:35)

Tension During Filming & Hersh’s Principles

• Conflict Over Reporter’s Notebooks: Hersh briefly quit the film after a sensitive notebook was inadvertently seen by the filmmakers, reflecting his uncompromising stance on source protection.
  • Quote: "There's nothing more sacred than reporter's notebooks... just the fact that, that we had it made him upset. And so he did quit the film." (05:50)
  • Outcome: Hersh returned after 24 hours once reassured nothing sensitive would be published (06:30).

Hersh’s Background and Path to Journalism

• Early Life: The son of Jewish immigrants who fled Eastern Europe; grew up in Chicago helping in the family dry-cleaning business.

  • Turning Point: A community college teacher recognized his talent and arranged for his admission to the University of Chicago, drastically altering the course of his life.
  • Quote: "[The teacher said,] what are you doing here?... He's a brilliant writer, he's a brilliant thinker. He needs to be, you know, at the University of Chicago." (08:19)

• Intellectual Awakening: Exposure to a broader world at university, and a serendipitous conversation in a bar led Hersh to his first journalism job at City News Bureau (09:18).

• Influence of Family: Hersh is deeply protective of his family, especially his wife Liz, a psychoanalyst; Poitras respected these boundaries in the film (10:38).

Landmark Reporting: The My Lai Massacre

• Impact on Vietnam War Awareness: Hersh’s reporting on My Lai was a watershed moment, shifting national consciousness about the war.

  • Quote: "Seeing images of innocent civilians massacred shifted the consciousness and I think, you know, really made it grew the movement." (12:31)

• Investigative Process: Hersh doggedly pursued leads, obtained names, and tracked witnesses—emphasized as a procedural model in the film.

  • Quote: "We really wanted that in the film to have it be a procedural film... stories don't fall fully formed." (14:27)

• Media Resistance: Mainstream outlets initially rejected the My Lai story, leading to its syndication and eventual widespread impact after photographs emerged (15:38).

The Power and Pitfalls of Investigative Journalism

• Media Self-Censorship: Poitras critiques the U.S. press for self-censorship and being too close to power, both historically (Vietnam, Watergate) and contemporarily (Iraq War).

  • Quote: "The problem with the press in the United States is not censorship, but self censorship..." (15:41)

• Institutional Risks: Hersh and Poitras both faced institutional resistance—Hersh had stories suppressed in major outlets, and Poitras notes similar concerns as an NSA/Snowden reporter (16:40).

• Hersh’s Strengths and Blind Spots: His anti-authoritarianism is a double-edged sword, sometimes straining working relationships but fueling his best work (17:41).

Visual Evidence: Abu Ghraib and Beyond

• Importance of Photos: Hersh recognized the irrefutable evidentiary power of images, particularly at Abu Ghraib.

  • Quote: "The photographs were undeniable, but Sy's reporting was both photographs and this report by a general... that's always been Sy's obsession: we need to understand the chain of command and what creates the conditions." (19:14)

• Tactics for Finding Stories: Hersh’s sleuthing goes far beyond press briefings—he follows up with retired officials and cultivates sources in unconventional ways.

  • Quote: "If you knock on doors or you find somebody who's retired... that's a good person to reach out to. So I think it's shoe leather reporting and follow your instincts always." (20:30)

Investigative Reporting in the AI Era

• Modern Challenges: The rise of AI, deepfakes, and believable forged documents complicates fact-checking but underscores the necessity of diligent reporting.
  • Quote: "There are facts in the world that we need to be reporting on... that's why you need... people to be skeptical and fact check and do all the due diligence you need to do." (21:35)
  • Reference: Poitras mentions the film "My Undesirable Friends" about Russian journalists as an example of the dangers and necessity of journalism in oppressive contexts (21:53).

Patterns in American Power and Accountability

• Cycles of Abuse and Impunity: Poitras frames the film as a study of recurring governmental abuses and how lack of accountability enables repetition.

  • Quote: "It's about patterns and cycles, cycles of abuse of power, of atrocities, of lies, of cover ups and impunity and the impunity where nobody gets held responsible." (22:47)

• Skepticism as a Civic Duty: The film hopes to inspire skepticism and demand for transparency, regardless of the political climate.

• Partisanship in Journalism: Hersh’s work is commended for antagonizing all administrations, standing for truth over politics.

  • Quote: "One of the best things about Sy's reporting is that he's pissed off every administration he's ever covered. ...news is not about partisanship. Shouldn't be. Facts. Yeah, it really shouldn't be." (23:55)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The problem with the press in the United States is not censorship, but self censorship.” — Laura Poitras (15:41)
• “Seeing images of innocent civilians massacred shifted the consciousness...” — Laura Poitras (12:31)
• “There's nothing more sacred than reporter's notebooks.” — Laura Poitras (05:56)
• “If you knock on doors or you find somebody who's retired, that's a good person to reach out to.” — Laura Poitras (20:30)
• “It's about patterns and cycles... impunity where nobody gets held responsible.” — Laura Poitras (22:47)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:04] — Laura Poitras on her initial pitch to Sy Hersh and their early interactions
• [03:30] — Discussion of anonymous vs. single sources and journalistic ethics
• [05:22] — Hersh’s brief departure from the documentary project over source protection
• [07:23] — Hersh’s formative years and the teacher who changed his life
• [12:30] — My Lai massacre reporting and its effect on public perception of Vietnam
• [15:41] — Media self-censorship and institutional failures
• [18:26] — The unique power of photographic evidence in Hersh’s reporting (Abu Ghraib)
• [20:30] — Hersh’s reporting tactics and anti-establishment strategies
• [21:35] — Investigative reporting in the era of AI and misinformation
• [22:47] — How Hersh’s reporting reveals cycles of power and impunity in America
• [23:55] — Nonpartisan truth-telling as Hersh’s principal journalistic value

Tone & Language

Throughout the conversation, both Stewart and Poitras maintain a tone of deep respect and concern for the state of journalism. Their language is passionate, thoughtful, and laced with specific anecdotes that bring Hersh’s legacy—and his unique character—to life. The episode blends admiration with critical insight, mirroring Hersh’s own relentless, skeptical pursuit of truth.

Conclusion

The episode offers a compelling look at Seymour Hersh’s extraordinary career, the ethical complexities of investigative journalism, and the crucial need for a skeptical, fact-driven media willing to challenge power. Laura Poitras’s personal stories and professional insights, combined with the upcoming release of "Cover Up," make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersections of culture, politics, and the preservation of accountability in public life.

Note:

• "Cover Up" streams on Netflix starting December 26 and is at Film Forum through Christmas Day (24:24).