← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
The Cover-Up' Spotlights Investigative Journalist Seymour Hersh
00:25:04
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:09]
A
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh is known for breaking some of the most intense stories in modern American history. He uncovered the truth about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. He acquired photos of prisoners being tortured at Abu Ghraib. And he unveiled a CIA operation to spy on student actors activist and investigated Watergate. Hirsch has also been at the center of controversy for his use of anonymous sources and one memorable use of forged letters. A new documentary tells the story of Cy Hirsch's career and includes a reluctant participant from Cy himself who was not always cooperative with the project. It's titled Cover Up. It's directed by Mark Abenhouse and Oscar winning documentarian Loya Portrais, who it's playing now at the Film Forum and streaming on Netflix. Laura Portrait joins me now in studio. It is nice to meet you. Meet you.
- [01:05]
B
Hi Alison, it's great to be here with you.
- [01:07]
A
So you pitched this project to Cyhersh 20 years ago. What was the pitch?
- [01:11]
B
Yeah, so. Well, I mean, Sai is a legend in investigative journalism as you outline. For over half a century he's been breaking the, some of the most important stories. And in, in 2000, you know, after the, after the 911 attacks, there was the buildup to the Iraq war, which I was very against and made a film about it. And right before I went to Iraq to document what was happening, SAE's Abu Ghraib torture story came out. And it was sort of some of the most shocking images I think we've ever seen as a country. I ended up going to Iraq. I actually filmed at Abu Ghraib prison, came back and I was feeling a lot of despair about the state of journalism, quite frankly, not asking hard questions about this war, about the war on terror, about the use of torture, secret prisons, Guantanamo Bay prison. It's a long list. And so I was doing really great adversarial journalism at that time. So I called him up and he said, yeah, sure, come, come to my office. And you know, I, I joke that it was kind of like, you know, the Twilight Zone music should have been playing because it was kind of going back in centuries to like this office that hadn't been painted in, in, you know, decades and all the yellow notepads and. And so I was just wonderful and funny and great and talked to me for a long time. I could see the film in my head and, you know, what I wanted to do is just film him doing what he does. And I left and Then he called me up. He said, there's no way that I can work with you because of source protection and how sensitive are and that he lives in a city where he has to leave the city or leave the country to meet the people that he. That are his sources. So it was a no, but. But I never forgot about the, the idea. And it stuck with me. He and I stayed in touch over the years. Every, you know, now and then I would say, hey, sigh. How about that documentary? And then late 2002, I. I finished another film about the groundbreaking artist and activist Nan Goldin. And I reached out to him again. I said, hey, Sai, let's. Let's talk. Maybe now would be a good time to do that documentary. But the motivation was the same that it was 20 years ago, which is. I'm very worried about the state of investigative journalism and feel that it's so vitally important to our society and to have to hold power accountable, particularly government power. It's very interesting. He has an interesting point of view about his sources. What does he say to you about his sources, especially when he has just one source? Yeah, so let me just break down a few different things, because in your introduction, the. The use of anonymous sources is different than single source. Anonymous sources are often used. They've been criticized. I think using anonymous sources is very problematic. When it's the government, for instance, Henry Kissinger trying to spin a story, that person should not be given anonymity. Right. Because that means they're just using the media to get the page across. But in the film, you meet somebody named Camille Losapio who shared photographs of torture from Abu Ghraib. This is someone who was terrified of what the government would do to her. And in that case, anonymity is absolutely appropriate. So there's all these kind of factors that have to go in. And then always in the process of using anonymous sources, the editors. So at the New Yorker, David Remnick would know who the sources are. Single sourcing is more controversial because you never know. You never know if a source knows all the information, if a source is playing you, if the source doesn't have full context, all of. And that. And so that's a separate issue. And we go into that in the film. But I also wanted to clarify that there we do also talk about the instance where Silas received forged letters, but he never published them. And I think that's really important to say he. They discovered early and they were never published. We'll get to all. We'll get into the details about all of that. One thing that's interesting in the film, which I'm sure you experienced before, I'm not, I don't know to what extent, but he tries to quit the film at one point and the cameras are rolling and you stop cameras once you realize, like, oh, this is serious, he's actually going to quit the film. What was he upset about?
- [05:23]
A
And how did you come, as you're.
- [05:25]
B
Comfortable telling me, how did you come to an agreement? Yeah, so first of all, you know, once Sy agreed to do the film, which, you know, was a long, you know, patient waiting time of over close to two. Two decades, he was really very, incredibly generous with his time. We did over 40 interviews. There's over 100 hours of footage with him this moment. But we, what we knew, he can also have a short fuse. But, and, but this was about source protection. And there were, there were certain of his. He'd given us access to his reporter's notebooks, which are, as you know, I mean, there's. There's nothing more sacred.
- [05:57]
A
Right.
- [05:57]
B
Than reporter's notebooks. But before he shared them with us, he had sequestered some away because there were some. Some he didn't want us to see. And somehow one of them slipped through. He knew that we see it and he got upset. We, of course, were never gonna publish anything in it, but just the fact that, that we had it made him upset. And so he did quit the film. And, you know, it was, of course, tense by that point. We'd been filming for over a year. I think we were committed to continue with the film. We would have finished the film not how we'd wanted to, but we also knew Sai well enough to think that he probably was going to come back. And I think in 24 hours he was like, I'm not going to give up. I really care about this project. It's all fine. As soon as we explained that we would never publish anything sensitive. And he knew that. And my track record on source protection speaks for itself.
- [06:53]
A
My guest is Oscar winning director Loia Porteous. We're talking about her new film, Cover up, which profiles investigative journalist Sy Hirsch. It's streaming now and Netflix is playing at Film Forum through Christmas Day. Initially, Sy was not going to go to college, which is an amazing thing to think about. A teacher saw him, saw something in him, gave him the opportunity to go to the University of Chicago. How did that one teacher's decision to help him change his life?
- [07:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, so first of all, the film, I mean, we're really telling It's a portrait of Cy, but it's a portrait of the United States through Cy's reporting. But we did want to understand how he became. How did he learn the trade of investigative journalism? So he's the son of immigrants who came from Eastern Europe. They fled in the 20s. The family and extended community left behind did not survive the Holocaust. There was a lot of silence in the house growing up. And he was. His dad owned a dry cleaning store. And so I started working there very young, and he had a gift with people. And then his dad became sick. And so his dad basically said, you don't have to go to college. Your siblings are going to go to college, and you'll run the dry cleaning store.
- [08:18]
A
Because you're good with people, right?
- [08:20]
B
Because you're good with people. He talks about it. He said he had pizzazz. He has a way with people. He likes people. He's curious. If he was here with you, he'd be asking you where you're from, what your story is. You'd find out that he knew more about you than some of your friends do pretty quickly. And I went to a community college and wrote. Wrote an essay. And the teacher said, you know, sy her share. And he sort of like rolls his eye and comes up and. And then the teacher says, what are you doing here? And sai. Like, he knows what he's saying. He's too. He. He was, you know, he was brilliant, basically saying he's a brilliant writer, he's a brilliant thinker. He needs to be, you know, at the University of Chicago, gets him. Walks him into the admissions office, and he gets in. And it does change his life. It just opens up to be in an intellectual environment at that time.
- [09:10]
A
What is something that he learned there that was useful to him outside of the studies, but just something that opened his mind.
- [09:18]
B
I mean, I think he said he didn't understand how the world worked. Like, he had been in this very insular world, just sort of taking care of family. And then all of a sudden there are these intellectuals he didn't know. You know, he just wasn't. Didn't have that education. I mean, he actually talks about his main education when he was growing up, as he joined the Book of the Month club, you know, if you can imagine, right? That's how he learned about history. And then by total chance encounter, he was. He goes to a bar and has a conversation with somebody who says that, you know, he's working at City News. And so I was like, huh, what's that thing? And he applies and gets in and sort of the rest is history. He talks about falling in love with journalism. It just everything aligned with that. His great writing, his allergy to secrets and silence, wanting to get to the bottom of things, loving people, being curious and being a bit of a punk, anti authoritarian.
- [10:23]
A
Before we talk about some of the journalism aspects of his life, something else that was very interesting me was his wife. He doesn't talk about her a lot. He talks about her with love. When he describes her and their children. Was he protective of that?
- [10:39]
B
He's very protective of his family. I mean, Cy's been in the public eye since the breaking the My Lai massacre story in the late 60s, which I'm sure we're going to talk about. And I think he's been protective of his family. And Liz, his wife is a psychoanalyst, as she says or he says in the film, explains in the film. And she's protective of her privacy. And so I always knew that that was, you know, a boundary and it's one I really respected and, and, but I also felt it was very important to include her in the film because actually, actually met at the University of Chicago. So they've been together for over six decades. It's, you know, it's an incredible partnership and I think his, his work is possible because of that partnership. So she's, she's very, I always felt that she was kind of like always sort of the, sort of. Yeah, one of the most important parts of the film and understanding how Psy's able to talk about and do such, you know, really hard reporting. You know, it takes a toll on, on a person, myself or, or sai to talk about some of these dark chapters.
- [11:48]
A
We're talking about the film Cover up with director Loia Portrais will have more after a break.
- [11:54]
B
This is all of It.
- [12:05]
A
You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Oscar winning director Loia Portrais. We're talking about her new film Cover up which profiles investigative journalist Sy Hirsch. It's streaming now on Netflix and playing at film form through Christmas Day. Me Lai, how did his reporting on the My Lai massacre change the trajectory of the Vietnam War?
- [12:30]
B
It really shifted the consciousness. I mean there was a growing anti war movement at that time. But seeing images of innocent civilians massacred shifted the consciousness and I think, you know, really made it grew the movement. And you know, Psy was really all. Before that he broke that story he'd gone to after being in Chicago. He went to the AP In Chicago, then was assigned to the Pentagon, which was an interesting choice. And you know, started looking around and said, you know, these are all lies here. And he hears, you know, people saying things like it's Mortar Incorporated over there. He's really disturbed by the war. He ends up quitting the AP over a fight with an editor which is, you know, side does quit. He's quit a couple places, yes, including our film briefly for maybe 24 hours. But he joined actually briefly the presidential campaign of Senator Eugene McCarthy which was an anti war campaign. He was his press secretary and speechwriter. Quit after actually a falling out. And then he was, you know, he describes it as feeling useless. I think he was seeing something awful happening. And you know, Sai is somebody who's replaced. His best reporting is really, it's evidence based, it's fact based, it's not opinion based. And he gets a tip that there is going to be a court martial. He doesn't know much. And then he gets a name and then tracks down this guy, William Calley, who was being court martialed and learns that in the spring, In March of 1968, over 500 civilians were massacred by US soldiers in my Lai.
- [14:14]
A
Yeah, it was interesting watching him. He didn't have a name, but then someone drops a name and he kind of clocks it and then he looks like he doesn't have quite the spelling right. Oh, but it's spelled kind of like this. It's this sort of like step by step process he uses.
- [14:27]
B
Yeah, we really wanted that in the film to have it be a procedural film that we're showing how investigative journalism works. Its stories don't fall fully formed. And his kind of how you track it so that the audience can go along to see how he puts the pieces together together. And you know, ultimately I think what the, you know, the real tipping point is, he meets this young soldier, Paul Meadlo, and his mother says, you know, I sent them a good boy and they sent me back a murderer. And. And then Meadlo does an interview on television with Mike Wallace and talks about killing civilians. And you know, and Wallace asks him, including babies? And he says, yeah, and you know, and babies. And then, and it was interesting, you know, it's an interesting story about journalism also because originally his story was rejected by some of the legacy media, including Life magazine. So they syndicated it, him and David Oates, they wrote it up and then syndicated it to like 30 different news organizations. And by the third story it was, you know, global headlines. And then we learned the photo, that there were photographs and that were taken by an army photographer, Ron Haberda.
- [15:38]
A
What did you learn about mainstream media.
- [15:41]
B
In the process of making this? Especially in the 60s and 70s, you can even say today, but especially in that era. Yeah, I mean, one of the big themes in the film is both the power of investigative journalism, but also a critique of it when it doesn't do its job. And how that has happened across decades, across administrations. Begins with Sy saying in the 60s that the problem with the press in the United States is not censorship censorship, but self censorship, that the press don't always report the facts or they're too close to power, too close to access. And so we saw that in the Vietnam War. I mean, we see headlines after SAE's stories about the massacre saying evidence is hazy, which is kind of shocking. But then fast forward, we see the same thing happening in Iraq. I mean, in the buildup to the Iraq war, where the journalists and legacy institutions are not asking hard questions about what, why are we going to war with a country that had nothing to do with the 911 terrorist attacks? And so for me, I've been very obsessed with that, both the importance of investigative journalism, but then also its shortcomings that I think has a lot to do with institutional cowardice and not wanting to anger the government. I mean, I experienced that myself doing the NSA reporting, the National Security Agency reporting about global mass surveillance, and Edward Snowden. He came to outside journalists like myself and Glenn Greenwald because he was worried that the story could get suppressed. And it happens. And Sy tells a story about one of his big stories getting suppressed at the New York times in the 70s. What do you think is Sy Hersh's biggest blind spot as a journalist after spending so much time with him? Right. I mean, you know, I think maybe his strengths are also can be weaknesses. I mean, he's sort of very anti authoritarian, very skeptical of power. And, you know, in a work situation, maybe somebody is your ally, but, you know, maybe he's alienated some editors who are really just trying to get his back. And, you know, and I think he's, you know, his best work has been done at institutions that, you know, that really, I think supported him, but then also let him, you know, do what he does best, which is really challenge power.
- [18:10]
A
Some of Sy's most powerful stories have been backed up by photo evidence. Eli Abu Ghrib. What did he understand about the power of images that would help him tell his story? Because some writers are like, no, no, no, it's just the words, right?
- [18:26]
B
I mean, Sai's a writer, and he believes in writing, and that's what he's driven by. I mean, he's probably writing right now as we're talking. I saw him yesterday at Film Forum, and he was. You know, he got there early, so he's like, I need a desk and I need to write. You know, so he was like, not, like, having coffee and chatting. So he's constantly writing. I think he believes in that, but I think he also understood that there was that the. In the case of specifically Abu Ghraib torture, what initiated the investigation was. Were photographs. Joseph Darby turned them in, and then an investigation was started. And you were sharing earlier.
- [19:07]
A
I worked at MSNBC at the time, and when those came over, they were shocking.
- [19:12]
B
Yeah.
- [19:12]
A
I mean, we were like, what are we looking at?
- [19:15]
B
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And when Cy got that story, he'd heard that CBS had the story, but it was being suppressed because of government pressure on cbs. They were holding the story. But the investigation that was done by General Taguba, which goes into great detail about the sadistic treatment of prisoners by US Soldiers, I don't think would have ever happened without the photographs. The photographs were undeniable, but Tsai's reporting was both photographs and this report by a general. And then it was. You know, there was. And what was important about the general's report is that he was calling out not just the soldiers, but the people who ordered it. And that's always been Cy's obsession. Like, we can't. We need to understand the chain of command and what creates the conditions.
- [20:06]
A
You said that you saw him yesterday, and I'm imagining him, like, given, like, 60 Minutes last night pulling CBS's chief, Barry Weiss, pulling the story last night about Venezuelan men sent by the Trump administration to a prison in El Salvador. If he were covering the story, and he may be, for all we know is, like, who would be his first call? What would be interesting to him in that story?
- [20:30]
B
Well, it certainly wouldn't be going to a Pentagon press briefing. You know, like, that's just not where news is. And he talks about that like, you're not going to get news at a White House press briefing. You're going to get the lies. You're going to get the government's narrative. So I think he's, you know, he's smart. He talks about certain tactics. He goes, okay, well, if you knock on doors or you find somebody who's retired, you know, somebody who's retired is maybe more. More willing to talk. I think that's how some. He's Developed some of his sources. He used to go into the army library and read their internal magazines to find out what general has recently retired from what part of the military and say, huh, that's a good person to reach out to. So I think it's shoe leather reporting and follow your instincts always.
- [21:19]
A
Do you think that's possible, the way he works? It is shoe leather reporting, but given now with AI and deep fakes and documents that look absolutely real, is it possible to do what he used to do?
- [21:36]
B
Yeah, I'm not. I think we have to. You know, there are facts in the world that we need to be reporting on and those facts exist. And there are journalists risking their lives every day that are imprisoned, that, you know, are putting their lives on the line to share knowledge and information about what's happening in the world. Of course, yes, it's also being, you know, spun and there's misinformation, but that's why you need, you know, people to be skeptical and fact check and, and do all the due diligence you need to do. But yeah, I believe in, you know, the, the power of investigative journalists. There's a, another great film about journalism released this year called My Undesirable Friends. Oh, yes. Which is about Russian journalists and who talk about how they had to, you know, they were the only independent journalists working and then they were labeled foreign agents and then the war started and they had to leave a country. So journalists are, you know, essential to check power.
- [22:38]
A
When you look back on Sy Hersh's reporting, what do you think his work reveals about America and power in America?
- [22:47]
B
That's a big question. Well, I mean, this is everything that this film is about. I mean, you know, the, what I'm interested in doing with this film, it's covering over half a century. It's about patterns and cycles, cycles of abuse of power, of atrocities, of lies, of COVID ups and impunity and the impunity where nobody gets held responsible. The people who created the policies, for instance, General Westmoreland and the Vietnam War or Donald Rumsfeld and the Iraq War, when those people are not held accountable, you set the stage for that to happen, happen again. And so this film is hopefully will make the viewer more skeptical of government lies when they happen in real time so that we can, you know, stand up and demand answers to questions. And I mean, we're seeing that now, I think with the Epstein, you know, talk about the definition of a cover up. Right. That's been going on. You know, the public has a right to know what's happening and why is it being hidden?
- [23:49]
A
Is it possible to do now with our, with our divided sense of political beliefs?
- [23:56]
B
I mean, one of the best things about Tsai's reporting is that he's pissed off every administration he's ever covered. Like, he's not. It's not about partisanship, and news is not about partisanship. Shouldn't be facts. Yeah, it really shouldn't be. And so I think we need to tell the truth as it is and whoever it angers, that's, you know, goes with the territory.
- [24:19]
A
My guest has been Oscar winning director Laura Poitras. We're talking about her new film, Cover Up.
- [24:24]
B
I want to correct one small thing. It's not on Netflix yet, so I don't want anyone going to Netflix to try to see it. That's true.
- [24:29]
A
I saw it on Netflix.
- [24:30]
B
I had a preview. So Netflix with a December 26th.
- [24:34]
A
December 26th, put that on your calendar or you can go see it at the Film Forum through Christmas Day. Thank you so much for being with us.
- [24:42]
B
Thank you. It was a pleasure.
- [24:44]
A
Coming up, tomorrow's show, we'll go back in time 100 years. The Harlem Renaissance. A look at the richness of gay life, life at the time. It's the subject of a new exhibit at the New York Historical and we'll talk about it with its curators. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow.
- [25:05]
B
Every holiday shopper's got a list. But Ross shoppers, you've got a mission. Like a gift run that turns into a disco snow globe, throw pillows and PJs for the whole family, dog included. At Ross, holiday magic isn't about spending more. It's about giving more for less. Ross, work your magic, my friends. Periods are all over the place. Her doctor says it's normal, but she's having trouble getting pregnant and her period app isn't helping. So I told her, to get pregnant in 2026, you need Mira. They call it the baby making machine because you can conceive 10 times faster. I got her one and Mira found her ovulation in 16 minutes. Tracking four hormones like a lab.
- [25:42]
A
Unwrap fertility clarity.
- [25:43]
B
Now get 17% off Mirah for Christmas@miracare.com.