The Lasting Impact of The Great Migration

Summary

Summary of "The Lasting Impact of The Great Migration"
All Of It Podcast, Hosted by WNYC

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "The Lasting Impact of The Great Migration," Tiffany Hansen, stepping in for Alison Stewart, delves into the profound effects of one of the most significant demographic shifts in American history—the Great Migration. This migration, spanning from approximately 1910 to 1970, saw an estimated six million African Americans relocate from the Southern United States to Northern and Western cities in search of better opportunities and an escape from systemic oppression. The discussion is framed around a new PBS documentary series, "Great Migrations: People on the Move," hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr., and features insights from the documentary's co-directors, Julia Marchese and Nailah Ife Sims.

---

Understanding the Great Migration

Tiffany Hansen introduces the Great Migration as a transformative period that not only altered the demographic landscape of America but also reshaped the cultural and political identities of African American communities. Julia Marchese emphasizes that the migration was more than just a physical relocation; it was an "elevation of consciousness" that fostered a new black identity in urban centers like Harlem. She states:

"There were these black enclaves and cities all over the north and west that sort of gave people a sense of community... people really did create this new identity that was born out of northern migration."
[02:44]

Nailah Ife Sims adds that movement served as a "freedom tool" for African Americans, enabling self-determination and political empowerment. She references Amiri Baraka's perspective on the migration as a "reinterpretation by the Negro of his role in this country."

"By the end of the Great Migration, black people could be found in almost every geographical area of America... Black people became even more armed politically through government and activism by the end of that period."
[02:59]

---

First Wave vs. Second Wave

The Great Migration is dissected into two primary waves. Julia Marchese highlights that the first wave, comprising approximately 1.5 million people, involved individuals with the means to migrate, often motivated by the promise of economic opportunities and the establishment of thriving communities. However, this wave also included those escaping severe racial violence and oppression.

"It was a mixture of motivations... some people were escaping danger."
[04:43]

Nailah Ife Sims discusses the second wave, which occurred from the 1940s to the late 1960s, involving around 4.5 million people. This phase was characterized by larger numbers and a broader geographic spread, including cities like San Francisco, Seattle, and Oakland.

"During the second wave... people are also getting different kinds of jobs. And... the legacies of this larger movement start to solidify in a more national way."
[06:56]

---

The Role of the Chicago Defender

A significant portion of the migration narrative centers around the Chicago Defender, a pivotal black newspaper founded in 1905 by Robert Abbott. Initially an advocate for building Southern communities, the Defender shifted its stance, promoting Northern migration as a means to undermine the economic foundations of Southern white oligarchs and combat Jim Crow laws.

Julia Marchese explains:

"Robert Abbott... saw migration as a tool against Jim Crow. He began to promote it in the pages saying, you know, come to Chicago."
[12:20]

The newspaper's portrayal of Chicago as a "utopia" attracted millions, despite the harsh realities migrants faced upon arrival, such as extreme cold, limited housing, and cramped living conditions.

"But at least in those early years... there was such a thriving community in neighborhoods like Bronzeville that people really were able to thrive there..."
[13:14]

---

Challenges Faced by Migrants

Migrants encountered numerous obstacles, including housing discrimination, lack of employment opportunities, and social isolation. Julia Marchese shares personal accounts from descendants who experienced harassment and obstacles upon migrating:

"When they left on the train... there were local white citizens... some harassment."
[17:58]

Nailah Ife Sims draws parallels between historical treatment of African American migrants and modern-day refugee experiences, highlighting systemic inequalities and exploitation.

"Black people were treated like refugees in their own country."
[19:42]

---

Personal Stories and Community Support

The documentary features personal narratives that underscore the diversity of migration experiences. Julia Marchese notes that while many sought improved economic prospects, others were fleeing violent repression.

"One of the families... they were forced to leave... members of their family were lynched."
[04:47]

Community institutions, such as churches and social organizations like the Chicago Urban League, played a crucial role in helping migrants settle and integrate into Northern societies.

"Churches... helped people get settled."
[14:53]

---

Reverse Migration and Its Implications

The conversation shifts to the contemporary phenomenon of reverse migration, where African Americans are moving back to the South. Nailah Ife Sims describes this as a "reclamation of the South," driven by disenchantment with Northern urban centers and inspired by a desire for political empowerment.

"Black people continue to move south and reclaim the south and build up their communities that they will gain more political power."
[26:56]

Julia Marchese adds that urban challenges like deindustrialization and housing discrimination have prompted some to question the long-term benefits of Northern migration.

"Charles Blow actually makes the argument that if black people continue to move south and reclaim the south and build up their communities that they will gain more political power."
[26:56]

---

Cultural and Political Legacy

The Great Migration's legacy is evident in the cultural and political advancements of African American communities. Julia Marchese highlights the emergence of vibrant cultural hubs like Harlem and Bronzeville, which became centers for arts, music, and political activism. The migration also paved the way for increased political representation, exemplified by the election of the first black congressman from Chicago since Reconstruction.

"Because they were concentrated in these black neighborhoods... they were able to elect a black congressman."
[21:34]

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes by emphasizing the enduring impact of the Great Migration on American society. As African American communities continue to evolve and migrate, both northward and back southward, the interplay of cultural expression, political activism, and economic empowerment remains central to their identity and influence. The documentary series promises to further explore these themes in subsequent episodes, shedding light on the multifaceted experiences of those who embarked on this monumental journey.

"Charles Blow... believes that black people today should still continue this reverse migration in order to concentrate political power."
[26:56]

---

Notable Quotes

• Julia Marchese on Black Identity Formation:
  "There were these black enclaves and cities all over the north and west that sort of gave people a sense of community... people really did create this new identity that was born out of northern migration."
  [02:44]

• Nailah Ife Sims on Migration as a Freedom Tool:
  "Movement is and has been a freedom tool to the ongoing story of black America... Black people became even more armed politically through government and activism by the end of that period."
  [02:59]

• Julia Marchese on the Chicago Defender's Role:
  "Robert Abbott... saw migration as a tool against Jim Crow. He began to promote it in the pages saying, you know, come to Chicago."
  [12:20]

• Nailah Ife Sims on Reverse Migration:
  "Black people continue to move south and reclaim the south and build up their communities that they will gain more political power."
  [26:56]

---

This comprehensive exploration of the Great Migration underscores its pivotal role in shaping African American communities and, by extension, American culture and politics. Through personal stories, historical analysis, and expert insights, the episode provides a nuanced understanding of this transformative period and its lasting repercussions.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[WNYC Studios]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Tiffany Hansen]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart. The first part of a new PBS documentary series on great Migrations aired last night. The great migration that many of us think of first is the roughly 60 year period when an estimated 6 million African Americans moved north and west from the south in search of a better life. That migration from around 1910 to 1970, forever transformed America's cities, including here in New York, as Harlem became a symbol of cosmopolitan life. The documentary doesn't just focus on that migration, however. It also examines the ongoing trend of reverse black migration to the south and modern day migration of Caribbean and African American immigrants as well. The final three parts of the series will air weekly on Tuesdays on your local PBS station. It's called Great A People on the Move and it's hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. The film's co directors are with us now. Julia Marchese. Hi, Julia.

[Julia Marchese]

Hi there.

[Tiffany Hansen]

And Nailah Ife Sims. Hi, Nailah, welcome.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Hi. Thanks for having us.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Julia. Let's just talk about that first episode that aired, the beginning of it. Henry Louis Gates Jr says, and I'm quoting here, movement shapes the identity of, of the black community. What did he mean by that?

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, one of the interesting ways that a lot of scholars talk about the great Migration is not just a demographic shift, not just a movement of people, but an almost an elevation of consciousness. There's an idea that this movement north really created a new black identity. And in episode one, we talk about the concept of the new Negro. This was a new kind of figure that was created out of spaces like Harlem, but not just Harlem. There were these black enclaves and cities all over the north and west that sort of gave people a sense of community. These were thriving communities of arts and culture, politics, you know, social clubs and businesses. And in these spaces, people really did create this new identity that was born out of northern migration.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Nailah, when we talk about black identity, when we talk about, you know, the history writ large of African Americans in this country for the last 100 years, even prior, movement is an important framework.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Absolutely. Movement is and has been a freedom tool to the ongoing story of black America. Self determination is a large part of freedom. Amiri Baraka, famous poet, once called the Great Migration a reinterpretation by the Negro of his role in this country. If you look at the Great Migration alone, at the top of the 20th century, 90% of the black population lived in the South. They were often in rural areas, chained to things like sharecropping and menial jobs. And by the end of the Great Migration, black people could be found in almost every geographical area of America, all parts of society from arts and culture like music, Hollywood theater, economic parts of society, factories, the auto industry, the public sector. Black people became even more armed politically through government and activism by the end of that period. And we can say that those similar transformations have happened in these other migrations that we cover in the series.

[Tiffany Hansen]

One of the great things is that we get to hear from descendants of people who went through this migration. I know there is no typical, quote, unquote, typical migration story, but. Julia, can you give us an example? If we're thinking about someone who's picking up and moving themselves, maybe their family across country, 1920, from the south to. At that point, it probably would have been the north, right? Not. Not necessarily the west, yet at that point.

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Hansen]

What. Who is that person?

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was everyday people, but it was people with enough means. Right. So it was people with means to. To travel. So, but, but it wasn't, you know, wide swath of the south and people, you know, we have these incredible stories of people going to train stations. It was a, it was almost a town event when people would go to train stations and watch people leaving. And there are incredible stories of people just towns emptying out, you know, people selling off their possessions. It was, it was like this massive social movement. But I should point out that, you know, while it was a movement for opportunity for the most part, and sort of a positive, you know, an attempt to transform their lives for the better, there was a sense also of people escaping danger. Some people were fleeing violence. In the case of one of the families that we. Descendants of a family we spoke to, you know, they're. They say it was not a great migration. We were forced out. You know, there was members of their family's family who were lynched and they, and they were forced to leave. So there's a mixture of motivations there. And so, you know, it's hard, it's a difficult story to tell because, you know, the 6 to 7 million people migrated north and there's 6 to 7, 7 million stor about why and how they did it and where they went. So it's, it's, in a way, it's such a big story, it's hard to get your arms around it. There is no one story that exemplifies the great migration.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Listeners, we would love to hear your stories. Did your for. Did your family participate in the great migration of the 20th century? Would love to hear your family story. You can call us, you can text us at 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can find us on social media as well at all of it. Wnyc. Naila, I know there's no one story, but do we see a difference between the type of migration that was happening northward, north and westward from the types of stories we heard in the 20s versus the types of stories we heard later on in the migration in the late 60s, for example, is there. Can you identify sort of a palpable shift?

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Sure, and that's a good question. I mean, I will say that the second wave of the Great migration, which happened between about approximately 1940 and the end of the 60s through 1970, is a continuation of the earlier movements, but it's larger. It's larger in numbers, it's more expansive in terms of where people go. And during the second wave, while some of the individual stories and some aspects are the same, some of what they face is different. And that is the expansion of these earlier black communities into other areas. People are also getting different kinds of jobs. And during this period, you're seeing a maturation of sorts of black life in these cities, black life in society, black visibility, and the legacies of this larger movement start to solidify in a more national way.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Julia, we've mentioned it, we've touched on a little bit, and we keep saying the great Migration, but we're talking about. Tell us the numbers. We're talking about millions of people.

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah, close to 7 million people. Mm.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Over. Over that 60 year period.

[Julia Marchese]

Yes, exactly.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

All right, I'll say the first wave was about 1.5 million people, and the second wave was 4.5, if not more million people in a short period of time. And they're going north and west. So it's, it's a gigantic movement.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Yeah. So we've, we've touched on this delineation here a little bit between north first and then kind of north and west later. So, Nailah, first tell us when we're talking about north. I think most folks might think of Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis. Were there others?

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Yes, yes. When we're Thinking about north, there's Cleveland, there's Philadelphia. You know, there are several cities that you can cover. But when we're talking about west, that includes San Francisco, Seattle, Oakland, Louisiana. Which is a huge story in our second wave. But I'll also say there are many cities that we didn't have a chance to cover. You can literally find great migration history across the map.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Julia, is it the case that some of the families that were moving to, let's just take Chicago for example, came because my cousin went there and told me that it's great and he's got a job lined up and now I can get a job. I mean, we hear those stories a lot when we talk about migration and immigration of any kind. Right. Usually in my own family, it was the children came before their parents. Right. So there's kind of this story of family interwoven here. Is that the case as we saw it, particularly in. Well, I guess in both parts of this, the earlier and the later, definitely.

[Julia Marchese]

People went where they knew people, especially family. So that was a huge part of it. And there was a, there was a grapevine. And, you know, I think rumors would spread in certain towns of, you know, this guy's made it, let's all follow. And so I think that people talking to each other was a huge part of it. But you mentioned Chicago and you know, the Chicago Defender newspaper was a key tool in promoting migration. And a lot of people got their information about Chicago and where to go from that newspaper. And people would write in letters saying, help me find work in your Windy City. People were desperate to go to Chicago. So I think that city in particular was sort of considered this utopia. And word really spread about the opportunities there. So there were family, there was kinship, but there was also sort of this general sense in black media and the black press about where they should go and why.

[Tiffany Hansen]

We are talking about a PBS four part documentary series called Great Migrations of people on the move. The first episode aired last night. The next episode airs on February 4. We are talking with the directors of that documentary now, Julia Marchesi and Naila Ife Sims. And we'd love your input in this conversation as well. Was your family part of the Great migration? We would love to hear from you. 2124-3396-9221-2433. I'll say it slower. 9692. You can also text us at that number. I'm wondering how Nailah, the first wave of people found. You know, we mentioned the Chicago Defender, that came later. Those first pioneers to Chicago, let's say. I keep using that as an example, but how was it to find. Describe for us what it was like to go there, not know anybody, have to find housing, have to find work. How was that experience? Do we hear much about that?

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Well, I want to defer to Julie Julia, who's been, you know, really steeped in that history. You know, I can speak to it a little bit, but I think she can speak to it in more depth.

[Tiffany Hansen]

All right, let's hear it.

[Julia Marchese]

Chicago Defender was actually quite early.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Okay, great.

[Julia Marchese]

Defender. Yeah, it was. It was founded in 1905 and.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Oh, okay, right.

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah. Robert Abbott, who was the publisher of the Defender, he himself really promoted migration. I mean, he used that paper to get people to move.

[Tiffany Hansen]

What was his motivation?

[Julia Marchese]

You know, it's interesting. I. I think initially he. He was quite a. He was kind of an activist, and I think initially he felt like, oh, no, no, everybody should stay in the South. Let's build community there. Early on, the early 1900s. But then he started to see that when black people moved north, they deprived the white Southern oligarchs of their labor. And he saw migration as a tool against Jim Crow. So he sort of saw the political activ. Migration. And so that's why he began to promote it in the pages saying, you know, come to. And especially to Chicago, where he had his newspaper, and he knew he could get more readers, but because he was also a businessman, but he really saw it as a political tool. And so in 1917, there's a famous headline in the Chicago saying it says the Exodus. And it's sort of showing people moving. And, you know, I think the paper was instrumental in portraying Chicago as that utopia, but, you know, in terms of what life was like when they got there, you know, definitely, there's definitely a comedown, especially when you're coming from the south, which is warm, and Chicago, which is not. And we've heard we sort of comb these audio interviews of people talking about arriving in Chicago and not realizing how cold it was going to be. Right. Housing was limited. It was cramped. Right. It wasn't always the promised land that they hoped it would be. But at least in those early years, in that first wave, there was such a thriving community in neighborhoods like Bronzeville that people really were able to thrive there and then send word back that life was good. So I think it was a mixed bag. I think that there were. There were struggles, of course, but on the whole, people's lives were improved, for sure.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

And one thing I'd like to add is that, and we don't have a lot of time in our series to cover this in a lot of detail, but in those early migrations to almost all of these cities, there was a small northern black population that did make some of the experiences of these migrants possible. And I'll also say that, you know, sometimes it was also black social organizations that helped people get settled, like the Chicago Urban League, like the local na.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Churches. Churches.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Yeah, churches, absolutely. That existed there already. But also we do mention in the first episode that some entire church populations moved to the North. They moved with some sort of infrastructure that helped them get settled. The family in, in the first episode that was fleeing violence, I believe they were actually helped by some local Chicago organizations to get settled as well.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Nailah Ife Sims, that's who you just heard talking. And we're also speaking with Julia Marchese. We're talking about the PBS documentary series about the Great Migration and Great mig. Going to continue with this conversation after a quick break and we'll bring in some of our listeners as well. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to all of it. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Allison Stewart.

[Progressive Insurance]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Radiolab]

Here's a way you can support WNYC in our centennial year. Donate your used car. We'll turn your old car into the news and conversation that we've been serving to the community for over 100 years. Many listeners have already donated their cars to WNYC. It's an easy way to support the station and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn [e-mail] car@ Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

[Tiffany Hansen]

But but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs.

[Radiolab]

Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers and.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Hopefully make you see the world anew.

[Radiolab]

Radiolab Adventures on the Edge of what We Think, think we know.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Wherever you get your podcasts, this is all of it here on wnyc. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Alison Stewart, and we're talking about the Great Migration. In fact, Great Migrations, people on the Move. It's the topic of a PBS documentary series. The first part aired last night. We have been talking with the co directors of that documentary, Julia Marchese and Nailah Ife Sims. And one of the things, Julia, that we keep coming back to are these stories we're hearing, whether we hear them through archive tape or whether we hear actually from descendants like in the documentary, from people whose families experienced this. And so to that point, let's bring in Mark here into the conversation. Good afternoon, Mark.

[WNYC Studios]

Good afternoon. And to you and your guest. Very fascinating conversation. Looking forward to checking this documentary out. I just wanted to share a quick story. You all were talking about the event, almost a celebration for African Americans who were leaving these towns to head north are. My maternal grandparents were married at a very early age in rural North Carolina. And the, the. The lack of opportunity forced both of them to want to go north to a city for economic reasons, for jobs. And I just want to mention that when they left on the train at that point, there were actually some local white citizens who were questioning African Americans boarding trains. They'd reached a point, I believe, where quite a bit of the local labor force was leaving. So you had individuals who were stopping and questioning people who, you know, had bags or suitcases. And in some cases there was some harassment. But I just wanted to share that, that it wasn't always a celebratory event. Sometimes, yeah.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Mark, thank you for that. Thank you for that. And Nailah, to that point, we have a text here as well that says, should what happened be called a refugee cris? Because then we can say millions were forced out, lost their homes, their land, they moved north because of the KKK or whatever else was happening in their communities in the south that forced them to leave. Is that, yeah, it wasn't always happy. And it could be called a refugee crisis or. No, you know what?

[Nailah Ife Sims]

That's a really, really good question. I mean, I think, you know, as Julie alluded to, not all of these, you know, migrations were celebratory. People were forced out. One thing that I was really taken aback by working on this series is the parallels between what we call refugees today and black Southerners and how they were treated. As you mentioned, people lost land, people were fleeing violence and oppression, but they were also sometimes in some of this history treated like refugees with this journey. And upon arrival, they were treated as different. They were taken advantage of. In the second episode that you'll see next week, there's this little known part of history that's considered the reverse. Freedom rides and There are parallels between how black Southerners who wanted to move north were taken advantage of by white segregationists. They were literally put on buses and dropped off in northern and western cities the same way we saw refugees and migrants treated in modern day history just last year. So, yeah, I think that is a way to look at this, that black people were treated like refugees in their own country.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Julia, let's. I've touched on Chicago a couple of times. It was called by some people the ultimate heaven. Yeah. So tell us about that. And I'm curious really how. Well, first, how. How that came about, how that moniker stuck, and then also how you see Chicago changed today by that migration.

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah, well, I will let nailah answer some of this because she is a Chicago native.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Oh, I love it.

[Julia Marchese]

But, yeah, I mean, I love one of the audio interviews. We have a man, Chicago, Maximum Heaven. And it was, you know, I think it's. It's just. It's the idea of these spaces again, and Harlem being one of them, but Bronzeville and Chicago being another, where there were just. There was just opportunities for black people to thrive, not just in sort of economically, but artistically and culturally entertainment and again, and political organizations and clubs and social clubs and churches and all of these ways that just felt like true freedom and community. And one of the important things we have to mention about the great Migration is the political shift that was allowed to happen. That, you know, voting was. Was for the most part impossible for black. For black Southerners. So when they did move north, they were able to vote. And because they were sort of concentrated in these black neighborhoods in places like Chicago, they were able to elect a black congressman. The first black congressman elected to house the House of Representatives since Reconstruction was from Chicago because of Northern mig. So I think Chicago just became this symbol of true progress and true possibility because of symbols, because of elections like that. But also, as, again, I don't want to stress it too much, but the Chicago Defender, I think the images that were printed showed people a kind of utopia, and I think it almost became mythic in a way.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Well, you mentioned Harlem, of course. We all know that, right, that Harlem was definitely part of this. And there was actually there was just an exhibit not that long ago at the Metropolitan Museum of Art about the Harlem Renaissance. And in that, of course, all of the conversation around the new Negro movement, which you mentioned, Julia, the New New and what I interviewed the. The curator of that exhibit who stressed repeatedly that the new Negro movement was an international movement, arts movement. I'm wondering, therefore, if we could Consider the migration of black Americans from the south to be an international event.

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah, I mean, I think it. As I said, the Harlem Renaissance was not just a Harlem story. That was happening all across the country and in other parts of. Of the world, this flourishing of arts and culture.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Paris. Yeah, yeah, right.

[Julia Marchese]

Paris as well.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Exactly.

[Julia Marchese]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Hansen]

Nailah, you know, we can't. We can't. The time is running fast on us. I have so many things I want to talk about, but I don't think we can leave this conversation without talking about reverse migration. So, nailah, tell us what we mean when we say that.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Yes. When we refer to the reverse migration, or sometimes it's also called the return migration, we're referring to when the time when black Southern people no longer were moving north and we're seeing more people from the north moving South. It's this reclamation of the south, essentially. The south has always been the ancestral home of black people in America. And there are some really specific contexts and factors that led to this movement. But I would also say that it's a spiritual and personal movement for a lot of folks who were disillusioned with the North. And because Julie Julia. I call her Julie for short, but because she directed this episode, I'll let her explain those factors further.

[Julia Marchese]

Well, I'll just say that one of the greatest pieces of archival clips that we found for the. For the show was this interview with August Wilson, the playwright, I think it was in the 80s. And he said. And it was surprising I hadn't heard this articulated. He said he thought the Great migration was a mistake, that black people should have never left the south, that they should have stayed there, concentrated their power and their energy and their effort, and developed their culture. Culture which they had been doing for hundreds of years. And that, you know, the. The north was full of sort of broken promises, and the cities had become sort of, you know, dismantled by a variety of factors. And so I think that was, you know. So, yes, it was. It was a variety of factors, including sort of urban renewal and deindustrialization. The lack of jobs and cities just became really unlivable for many black Americans. And they didn't have the ability to leave, partly because of redlining and you. About housing discrimination. So there were a number of factors that people sort of started looking around and saying, why did we come up here? And is. Is it better to return to the South? And. And this has been the theme also of New York Times journalist Charles Blow, who believes that black people today should still continue this reverse migration in order to concentrate political power.

[Tiffany Hansen]

The numbers are bearing this out. I can just tell you here in New York, the city's black population has declined by roughly 200,000 people over the last two decades, about 9% according to the New I wonder, Naila, if this is another case of, you know, people seizing an opportunity, another case of possibility, of viewing possibility and opportunity.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

It absolutely is. Julie alluded to this. But you know, Charles Blow actually makes the argument that if black people continue to move south and reclaim the south and build up their communities that they will gain more political power. And that was demonstrated in the 2020 elections with the Senate races as well as Stacey Abrams race that while was unsuccessful, proved that black voters were willing to show up and make the state of Georgia purple. You know, it's absolutely an ongoing movement that we haven't seen the full results of. And you know, it's definitely giving people hope that they can have self determination and ownership of their lives in a world that still has so much racism.

[Tiffany Hansen]

We have a text to the Directors thanks so much for the Migration series. I only learned of my own family's migration as I built my family tree. This history is fascinating to me. I find my family doesn't want to talk about this history as it is painful. But we are talking about it on a new PBS documentary and we are hearing a lot of stories and tell us. Yeah, and tell us again, Julia, when it when the next one airs and where people can find it.

[Julia Marchese]

The next episode airs next Tuesday on PBS at 9pm and it is the second wave of the Great Migration.

[Tiffany Hansen]

The title of the documentary series is Great A People on the Move. It's hosted by Henry Louis Gates Jr. We've been joined today by the film's co directors, Julia Marchese and Nailah Ife Sims. Thanks to you both for your time.

[Julia Marchese]

Thank you so much.

[Nailah Ife Sims]

Thank you so much.

[Progressive Insurance]

NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City by sponsoring programming like NYC now. You'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.