The Rise and Fall of Women in Rock in the ’90s

Summary

All Of It: The Rise and Fall of Women in Rock in the ’90s – Detailed Summary

Episode Overview

In this episode of All Of It, hosted by Alison Stewart on WNYC, the discussion centers around the pivotal role women played in the 1990s rock scene, exploring both their rise to prominence and the subsequent challenges that led to their decline in mainstream recognition. The conversation is enriched by insights from Tanya Pearson, author of Pretend We're Dead: The Rise, Fall, and Resurrection of Women in Rock in the 1990s, and Tonya Donnelly, a musician known for her work with Throwing Muses, the Breeders, and Belly.

Guests Introduced

• Tanya Pearson: Author of Pretend We're Dead, Pearson delves into the historical and cultural contexts that shaped the experiences of female rock musicians in the '90s.
• Tonya Donnelly: As a prominent female rock musician, Donnelly provides firsthand accounts of the industry's dynamics and the systemic challenges faced by women in rock.

Key Topics Discussed

1. The Golden Era of Women in '90s Alternative Rock

   Pearson argues that the early '90s represented the zenith for alternative rock women, highlighting a surge of influential female-driven bands and artists. She lists notable groups such as:

   • The Breeders: Released Last Splash.
   • Belly: Debuted with their self-titled album.
   • Liz Phair: Released Exile in Guyville.
   • Hole, PJ Harvey, The Cranberries, Veruca Salt, Alanis Morissette, Garbage, and Luscious Jackson.

   Notable Quote:

   "The early 90s was the best time ever for alternative rock women." — Tanya Pearson [02:19]

2. Impact of the Telecommunications Act of 1996

   Pearson and Donnelly discuss how the Telecommunications Act of 1996 led to significant consolidation in the radio industry, particularly benefitting large corporations like Clear Channel (now iHeartRadio). This consolidation reduced the diversity of voices on mainstream radio, adversely affecting female and minority artists by limiting their airplay opportunities.

   Notable Quote:

   "When you have less space, then there's less room for people, especially women and minorities." — Tonya Donnelly [25:18]

3. Sexism and Corporate Curation in the Music Industry

   Donnelly shares her personal experiences with sexism, including an incident where a music director informed her that there were "too many female voices" on the radio, leading to the delay of her single's release. This anecdote underscores the systemic barriers women faced in gaining and maintaining visibility in the rock scene.

   Notable Quote:

   "Is it too strident or is it just annoying to hear a few female voices in a row on the radio?" — Tonya Donnelly [07:20]

4. Oral History Project and Preservation of Female Rock Narratives

   Pearson initiated the Women and Rock Oral History Project to document and preserve the narratives of female rock musicians, recognizing the scarcity of such resources in the digital age. This project served as the foundation for her book, allowing for a comprehensive exploration of women's roles and experiences in '90s rock.

   Notable Quote:

   "I wanted to create the sort of repository of really deep and lengthy interviews that I wished had existed when I was a teenager." — Tonya Donnelly [05:22]

5. Creative Evolution Through Different Bands

   Donnelly discusses her journey through various bands—Throwing Muses, the Breeders, and Belly—and how each experience contributed to her growth as a musician. She highlights the collaborative environments and the skills she developed, such as lead guitar playing and backup vocals, which shaped her approach to music and band dynamics.

   Notable Quote:

   "I learned how to be a good bandmate in some ways in terms of just listening and supporting." — Tonya Donnelly [13:17]

6. Legacy and Current State of Female Rock Artists

   The conversation transitions to the legacy of '90s female rock artists and their influence on today's musicians. Despite the decline in mainstream visibility, artists like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo draw inspiration from their '90s predecessors, reflecting a lasting impact on the genre.

   Notable Quote:

   "I think that there's a similarity in production quality, in sort of lyrical content... but it's less about individuals and more about the result of record label consolidation." — Tonya Donnelly [28:37]

7. The Riot Grrrl Movement's Role and Misconceptions

   Pearson clarifies the distinction between mainstream alternative women and the Riot Grrrl movement, emphasizing that not all female artists fit into the Riot Grrrl category. She critiques the oversimplification of categorizing all '90s alternative women under a single feminist label, arguing for a more nuanced understanding of their diverse contributions.

   Notable Quote:

   "Riot Girl has become, unfortunately, this feminized category that all alternative women have been lumped into, whether or not they were Riot Grrrl." — Tanya Pearson [17:05]

8. Challenges in Maintaining Band Identity and Industry Representation

   Donnelly reflects on the struggles of maintaining artistic control and identity within the music industry's constraints. She contrasts her experiences with European labels, which offered a more collaborative environment, versus the American labels that imposed stricter controls, affecting how bands like Belly were marketed and perceived.

   Notable Quote:

   "We struggled the most because we had a relationship that was very human with 4AD... but in the American label, it was more systemic and less about freedom." — Tonya Donnelly [25:18]

Listener Interactions

Throughout the episode, listeners are encouraged to engage via call-ins and texts, sharing their favorite '90s female bands and the impact these artists had on their lives. For example, a caller named Nia from Maywood, New Jersey, praises bands like Luscious Jackson and Cranberries for their feminist messages and emotional resonance.

Concluding Insights

The episode underscores the significant yet often overlooked contributions of women to the '90s rock landscape. Pearson and Donnelly emphasize the importance of preserving these histories through projects like oral histories and literature, advocating for continued recognition and support for female artists in the music industry.

Final Notable Quote:

"All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance... But we are talking about the women who made rock in the 1990s and what their legacy is." — Alison Stewart [31:54]

Conclusion

This episode of All Of It offers a comprehensive exploration of the rise and fall of women in '90s rock, blending historical analysis with personal anecdotes. Through the expertise of Tanya Pearson and the firsthand experiences of Tonya Donnelly, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the cultural and systemic forces that shaped the era's music scene and the enduring legacy of its female artists.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name youe Price Tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states.

[Tonya Donnelly]

Listener Supported WNYC Studios.

[Tanya Pearson]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We have been reading our January get lit with all of it book Club selection and tonight it is time to discuss. I will be in conversation with author Richard Price about his novel Lazarus Man. The event starts at 6 6pm at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library. That's a branch of the New York Public Library. And we have an update on our musical guests. Lakisha Benjamin was scheduled to be with us, but she had to bow out due to illness. Feel better soon. Lakeisha we are lucky enough to have gotten another amazing jazz musician to join us, Anthony Hervey. He'll be performing live at our Conversation with Richard Price. The event starts at 6pm and we we've just released a few more tickets, so head to wnyc.org getlit to get yours. And of course everyone can watch our livestream. For details on all the information you need again, check out wnyc.org getlit that's in just a few hours. Now let's get this hour started and I'll set the mood with a little music.

[Tonya Donnelly]

The old man I've talked about broke his own heart, poured it in the ground Big red tree grew up and out throws up its leaf, Spins round.

[Tanya Pearson]

And round.

[Tonya Donnelly]

I know all the sun.

[Tanya Pearson]

So take your head off in the.

[Tonya Donnelly]

Top of the.

[Tanya Pearson]

That was the band Ballet, fronted by my guest Tonya Donnelly, one of the myriad of women featured in the new book Pretend we're the Rise, Fall and Resurrection of Women in rock in the 1990s by my other guest, Tanya Pearson. In the book, Pearson argues that the early 90s was the best time ever for alternative rock women. She lists the artists that released records from 93 to 95, including the breeders, who released the Last Splash. Belly had their debut, Liz Fair released Exile and Guy Phil with this anthem. There was Mazzy Star, Juliana Hatfield, Elastica Hole, PJ Harvey, the Cranberries, Veruca Salt hit big with their LP American Thighs with this banger Alanis, PJ Harvey, Garbage and the List, Eva's Luscious Jackson, who did our show's theme musics were big in the 90s. So what happened. Aren't all these women in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame? Not quite. Joining me now are the author of the book Pretend We're Dead, Tanya Pearson. Nice to meet you, Tanya.

[Tanya Donnelly]

Nice to meet you.

[Tanya Pearson]

And musician Tonya Donnelly. It is nice to speak with you, Tanya.

[Tonya Donnelly]

It's nice to see you again.

[Tanya Pearson]

Speak with you again, listeners. This one's for you. Who was your favorite female band of the 90s and why? What did female artists mean to you at this time in your life? Do you have a favorite so you'd like to shout out? Our phone lines are wide open. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air or you can text to us. Tanya, the title of your book is from an L7 song. Why did that seem like the right title?

[Tanya Donnelly]

Well, I thought it really spoke to, you know, the fact that this was a moment sort of historically, but also just in music, where women really did make space for themselves, not just in the underground, where women have always participated, but in the mainstream and somehow retrospectively, they get forgotten. So it's almost like they're dead. You know, erasing women from sort of historical memory, I believe, is a form of violence.

[Tanya Pearson]

Actually, you originally started this project called Women and Rock Oral History Project. You can watch some of them on YouTube. What was your original goal with that project?

[Tanya Donnelly]

My original goal was just to basically, like, create the sort of repository of really deep and lengthy interviews that I wished had existed when I was a teenager. You know, all these women were on the covers of magazines and I would just go to music. I'd spend all my money on CDs and records. But at the sort of turn, the transition to the digital age, I noticed that I couldn't find a lot of this stuff online. And so I'm just kind of insane and was like, well, maybe I'll just ask Veruca Salt for an interview or. The first people I asked and they said yes. And then I was like, oh, shoot, how do I get to la? That was the start.

[Tanya Pearson]

Tanya Donnelly, when you thought about it, when you were contacted to be part of the Women in Rock Oral History, what did you think?

[Tonya Donnelly]

I said yes pretty much immediately also. And part. A lot of that had to do with how Tanya pitched it, you know, and the. The focus of it. And. And I, you know, I fully agree with her regarding this sort of history of corporate curation of female voices in the arts in general, but very much in music. And it just appealed to me. And also, you know, I also like the fact that she. That it was a really comprehensive history that she was looking for, also personal history, as well as, you know, the concept of the project.

[Tanya Pearson]

What was something, Tonya Donnelly, that you were. I'm just going to call you Tonya Donnelly through this. Okay, Tanya Donnelly, what was something that you were really dying to talk about? Like no one had ever asked you. And here comes Tanya and she comes to you, and you're like, I want to talk about this.

[Tonya Donnelly]

I wanted to talk very specifically. And this kind of speaks to what I just said about the language that was used, you know, in. In the music business at the time. You know, I. And I said this. This is sort of like my. My touch point, sort of example of what happened daily at the time. And I talked to Tanya about the. Tanya Pearson about this in our interview that I actually sat in a music director's office, and he said to me, well, we have too many female voices right now, so we're gonna have to push your single back because we already have, like, you know, it was something like four or five voices. And then sort of tried to gentle this news with me by saying, but it's your sister and two of your closest friends, so that's great. This, like, moment where I was just like, you know, you know, he felt like he was being very frank and very, you know, just full disclosure with me. And I just remembered sitting there saying, wait a minute. So. So what is it about the tone of our voices or the message? You know, I just feeling like, is it too strident or is it just annoying to hear a few female voices in a row on the radio? Just. It just. But. And that's just one example of many. I'm laughing. It's not funny. You know, I'm laughing at the absurdity of it.

[Tanya Pearson]

The absurdity of it.

[Tonya Donnelly]

I think it's a hilarious anecdote. And that was just, you know, sort of part of our. Our daily business. And, you know, and I'm going to say, because I know a lot of young female artists who are still struggling with it and maybe in some ways more so, because, you know, there was this moment where the door opened and a big rogue wave of us kind of poured through. And I do think it's more carefully, you know, organized now maybe.

[Tanya Pearson]

Again, Tanya, when you were sat down to talk to these women and you include their pieces of their interview in your book, what were some of the questions that you wanted answered?

[Tanya Donnelly]

Well, the thing about oral history is that, you know, it's different from journalism. So I go in there, ask really open ended questions and it just sort of starts with childhood and then work up to present day. What are you doing now? Like I learned that Tanya had become a doula, which I had no idea. So they're really open ended. And then the fun thing about that for me is that that's how basically how I got the topic from this book. Like I try not Tanya and I. The whole interview is up and it's like basically us having this crazy conversation and going off on tangents because I was having such a good time just talking to her. I would say that some of the other ones, when I'm more nervous or less comfortable, I try, you know, people have an allotted time slot, I'll ask maybe some more pointed questions. But what's great is that within these open ended questions these topics just come up naturally about sexism in the industry. Stories like the one that Tanya Donnelly. I just refer to myself other Tanya because I feel like Tanya. So I can just be other Tanya.

[Tonya Donnelly]

I am other Tanya.

[Tanya Donnelly]

But. But yeah, so they're open ended. I don't go in there with any kind of plan. But you know, luckily for me, these women oftentimes share things. Like Shirley Manson, when I interviewed her in 2018, basically like gave me the topic for this book because I was always wondering. I wanted this to be a public repository of interviews because these histories don't really exist in the digital realm and I wanted people to use them in stories and magazines. I want people, it's not my thing. It's like you can use them and write a book and yeah, just Shirley manson's comment about 911 and then going back and listening to the other interviews and sort of incorporating Tanya's experience with her with record label management and the gender quota. So there's topics that I can pull out of it, out of these interviews to focus on. But I don't go in with any plan really.

[Tanya Pearson]

Tanya, you were in Throwing Muses, which you started with your stepsister Kristin Hirsch. When you first started out. What did you hope for the band?

[Tonya Donnelly]

That's an excellent question. I feel like we just at that point just you know, wanted to get the music out there and you know, Kristen was very much the engine at that time and it was just sort of now we're moving to Boston, now we're going to do this. Let's. What can we do to make sure we get the music out there? Was. And I say this with all, in all honesty, no ultimate goal. I don't think like there was no five year plan. And we. I feel like every step of the way we were surprised. Like, now we're signed, now we're going to get signed. Now we're on the radio. Everything was just sort of a happy surprise to us at that time. So I can't say that there wasn't. You know, we were sort of just barreling along in the early. In the early years.

[Tanya Pearson]

Well, you went on to be in the Breeders and then formed Belly. What did each group afford you as a musician? Creatively?

[Tonya Donnelly]

I feel like I learned how to play lead guitar with Kristen, with throwing muses, and that was kind of furthered in the Breeders. But I also, in the Breeders, really learned how to be a. Be a good bandmate in some ways in terms of just listening and supporting and because, you know, both of those women, Kristen and Kim, are both visionaries. They know exactly what they want. And, you know, if you plug into that, you know, in a funny way, it gives you more space to just sort of, you know, slot in. And both. They both are such different songwriters that I learned so much about guitar very differently from both of them. Learned a lot about backup vocals from Kim and Kelly, actually, both. And so I feel like by the time I got into Bell Belly, I. I knew how to give other people space to do their thing. You know, it felt good because I had been given space by those two women that, you know, that I knew how to sort of what space to give. And I wasn't as grasping maybe as I might have been otherwise in a, you know, helming band.

[Tanya Pearson]

My guests are Tanya Pearson and Tanya Donnelly. We're talking about the women who made rock in the 1990s, what their legacy is. The name of the book is Pretend We're Dead. Who was your favorite band in the 1990s and why? What the female artist mean to you at this time in your life? What favorite song that you want to shout out? Our numbers? 212-433. WNYC. 212-433-9692. Let's talk to Nia, calling in from Maywood, New Jersey. Hi, Nia, you're on the air.

[Nia]

Hi, how are you? It's so nice to be on the phone with idols from my teenage years. You the musician, and I'm definitely getting this book and too many songs to narrow down to one. It really is. But I was just lamenting the other day about how we're missing strong female music today for our girls. And so I guess I want to shout out, like, Luscious Jackson. I forget the exact name of the song. I think it's Strongman. But it was very feminist strong for me in high school. And whole D I C K nail was very, you know, you're not gonna rape me. And the song that I think is most relevant today, my young four year old daughter even gets the emotion from it is Cranberry Zombie. You know, just with war stuff. And yeah, she actually like asked me what a bomb was after listening to that song.

[Tanya Pearson]

Thank you so much for calling in, Nia. This text says Kathleen Hannah, amazing woman in punk. She would tell the men to move to the back of the audience, have women come forward, creating a place where women could enjoy punk. Let's see. PJ Harvey's Stories from the City album was the soundtrack of my early 20s. And the mess we're in, it still gives me chills every time I listen to it. 10,000 maniacs and then Natalie Merchant's solo work were the backdrop of my teens. Unique sound and thought provoking lyrics. Still, sir, stir my soul. You can call or text us at 212-433-9692. Tanya, in the book you write about how grunge came around, but then the riot grrrl movement began in Seattle. What was that in response to?

[Tanya Donnelly]

Well, I guess from. From what I gather, and I deliberately like wanted to separate these. This sort of group of mainstream alternative, non conformist rock women from the riot girl movement. But you know, I've read Kathleen Hannah's memoir. I've read there's a great book, Girls to the Front. And that was in response to sexism in the scene in Seattle. And so what I understand is Kathleen Hannah was, you know, equally as inspired by 70s punk. And they just sort of started their own. Not at. Not a separatist scene, but like the. Like you're the person who wrote in, right? Girls to the Front. So created physical space for women to participate in punk scenes. And so it was like, you know, Kurt Cobain, I talk about him a lot because everyone that I've interviewed mentioned, right, his feminism and his allyship really made it acceptable and fortunately or unfortunately marketable to the sort of corporate overlords they were. Oh, women actually can make money. Like, people actually want to hear this. Kurt Cobain thinks it's cool. And then on the flip side, Kurt Cobain was friends with Kathleen Hanna, so learned about feminism from being involved in the Olympia scene and in the riot grrrl scene. But I made a really clear distinction in this book that, you know, rep, like Retrospectively, again, Riot Girl has become, unfortunately, this, like, feminized category that all alternative women have been lumped into, whether or not they were Riot Girl. I've seen, like, belly on Riot Girl lists.

[Tanya Pearson]

And, like, that's.

[Tanya Donnelly]

It's ahistorical. You know, it's. It's not accurate. Not all women were, like, best friends with each other. They didn't all live in the same area. And so I really wanted to differentiate that. That there was this other sort of thing that was happening outside of Riot. Grrrl. Yeah.

[Tanya Pearson]

Donnelly, did you feel. Were you. Did you consider yourself a feminist? Did you feel like you had to write feminist music? Or was it just who you were?

[Tonya Donnelly]

I've always felt like a feminist. Absolutely. My music doesn't always directly reflect that, but my life in music does. And I want to say to Tanya Dillet that, you know, Tanya Pearson talked about, like, the. How the. Just the way the lens collapses and we're all put into one category. Time. This is why a project and a book like this is so important, because it felt like the bandwidth was so wide at the time. I mean, and, you know, the woman that called in talking about, you know, or everyone that called in, actually think about all those names from Natalie to Courtney. That's how it felt at the time, that everybody's got a. Got a spot, you know, and so I love Tanya that you said that, because that's something I think about all the time. You know, how everything is just tightening up in a way that is inaccurate and historically, you know, untrue. Yeah.

[Tanya Pearson]

We're talking about the women who made rock in the 1990s and what their legacy is with Tanya Pearson, author of Pretend We're Dead, and musician Tanya Donnelly. If you want to call in and tell us what your favorite 1990s band and what female artists meant the most to you at this time, our Phone lines are open. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We'll meet you right back after here after a quick break.

[Alison Stewart]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another Smart Choice with Auto Quote Explorer. To compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. If it's time for you to say goodbye to your car, truck, boat, motorcycle or rv, consider donating it to wnyc. We'll turn the proceeds from the sale of your vehicle or watercraft into the in depth news and programming that keeps our community informed. Donating is easy, the pickup is free and you'll get a tax deduction. Learn [e-mail] Carr.

[Tanya Pearson]

At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But.

[Tonya Donnelly]

But we do also like to get.

[Tanya Pearson]

Into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers and hopefully make you see the world anew. Radiolab Adventures on the Edge of what We Think we know Wherever you get your podcasts, you are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are Tanya Pearson, author of Pretend We're Dead, and musician Tonya Donnelly. You know her from Throwsing Muses, Breeders and Belly. We are talking about women who made rock in the 1990s. We're getting a lot of good texts. This one says my favorite 90s female band singer, I'd have to say, is Bjork. I loved how unique of a musician she was in both instrumentation and vocals. There was nothing to compare to her then. My favorite female band of the 90s was 7 years bitch. I saw them at Satacon in Portland and they were so strong and powerful that I carry them with me to this day. Badasses.

[Tanya Donnelly]

Me too.

[Tonya Donnelly]

Yep.

[Tanya Pearson]

Let's talk a little bit about the Fall. That's the second part of your book. It's the Rise. We talked about the Fall. The Telecommunication act of 1996 affected radio. Tanya. What did it let big corporations do and what impact did that have on how women would be heard on the radio? Oh, boy.

[Tanya Donnelly]

Yes. So, I mean, we're experiencing similar things today, right? The deregulation of industries of that has just. Historically, women have written about this. Susan Fluti, Naomi Klein, political correspondents and journalists. It always negatively impacts women and minorities. And so what happened when Clinton signed that telecommunications act was it allowed Clear Channel and people, my students, I'm a professor too, and they're like, what's Clear Channel? I say, well, now you might know that it's iHeartRadio, because they just rebranded, but it allowed them to go from owning something like 30 stations to over 1,000 stations in like, less than a month. And so that really negatively impacted college radio, local, like, city radio stations. I was living in Providence, Rhode island, at the time, Right. And I feel like that sort of coincided or sped up the implementation of that gender Quota that Tanya Donnelly, the best Tanya was talking about earlier. Right. When you have less space, then there's less room for people, especially women and minorities. So black centered radio stations were a victim of that legislation, women centered stations. But then I think most importantly in terms of the alternative phenomenon was that college radio had been like the springboard from underground to national radio into two major record labels. And so college radio stations were negatively affected as well.

[Tanya Pearson]

The book really takes the press to task. Tanya Donnelly, how did you feel about the way the coverage of your band, especially Belly, was handled?

[Tonya Donnelly]

I mean, it was a constant struggle at the time to maintain control over, you know, our image. It was, you know, every photo shoot, every, you know, every press release, every, you know, just. We tried to filter everything as best we could. And I think we were punished for it, frankly. You know, I mean, especially with our American label. We're. We were signed to 4 AD in Europe, in England, and worldwide other than. Than the United States. It was. It was really here that we. That we struggled the most because, you know, we had a relationship that was very human with 4 AD. There was. There were. It was converse. You know, every decision was conversational and we were included. We were sort of given directives here in a way that was. And I. And let me also just sort of step to the side to say I had a lot of people on our American label that I loved and who were absolutely going to bat for us. And. But. And especially our PR woman, Deborah Nadini, who was kind of our lifeline at the time. But, you know, it was just a constant sort of. We started to feel the shift, and I will say it was at the Grammys that we really started to feel the shift where there was this very sudden. There were the alternative people in the room and there were. There was this new sort of. And, you know, I don't want to sound. There's no judgment in what I'm about to say, but there were the very handled people who were in full regalia and had a entourage, and it was just sort of this moment where we felt this new wind. And it kind of explained everything that the past year had felt like to us, where we're like, oh, there's a new thing coming, and it's gonna be more about, you know, the system again. It's gonna feel more systemic again and less, you know, this breath of. This breath of freedom that has been the case, you know, for a few years.

[Tanya Pearson]

So this interesting text. I don't hear any female rock voices in the mainstream at all. I Hear female voices and there are pop singers and R and B. And even then there seem to be significantly less female voices all the way around. Hip hop, R and B, and especially rock. I might say that's a little bit different recently given the Billie Eilish of it all. The Olivia Rodrigo. Hi Muno. All of these bands, and we've had them on the air and they've all really sort of hearkened back to the 90s, you know, I think it was. Kristin Gavin of Muna said that the Lilith Fair influenced her highly. Olivia Rodrigo had Alanis Morris set on stage. Tanya, what do you think these artists are doing? Right. Because I get a sense that it's not. It's. You can do okay as a woman now.

[Tanya Donnelly]

What do you think, Tanya?

[Tanya Pearson]

Pearson.

[Tonya Donnelly]

Pearson.

[Tanya Donnelly]

Oh, Pearson.

[Tanya Pearson]

Yes.

[Tonya Donnelly]

Yeah. Okay.

[Tanya Donnelly]

So I hope. I know that sometimes this is my opinion and it might be a little unpopular, but I think that there's. There are obviously tons of women and I am a huge fan of pop music. Like Madonna was my archetype growing up. I still love pop. I think Chapel Roan. I loved her stance on Palestine and how she sort of refused to be bullied into endorsing one or the other political candidates. However, I think that the. What we were talking about earlier, the. The sort of angry instrumentalists, sort of like various forms, you know, aesthetically different kinds of femininity. You know, in the 90s, you had. You had Courtney Love screaming in a baby doll dress. Right. You had Tanya Donnelly, like, not wearing pants and a Gap ad. You had. Which I had that on vhs. I recorded like commercials. I recorded late night television shows al.

[Tonya Donnelly]

More my idea, by the way.

[Tanya Donnelly]

Yep. Which is, yeah, great. But you have all these different types and. And I think that there is a. There's a similarity in. In production quality, in sort of lyrical content. Right. Like, you can say feminism, but you're not going to say the things that, like Courtney loves true on the inside. And I don't mean that as a diss. I. I think that it's less about. It's really much less about individuals who work in the industry and individuals as creatives and as artists. And it's more about. This is the result of record label consolidation. Right. Record labels work with a handful of producers. Right. You have to have some money or some capital or some connection to even get to that point to be heard by those people. So that's where, you know, again, I love pop music, but I don't think that we're seeing a lot of diversity in rock and alternative categories, which is what I wanted to focus on in this book. That's still very. It's like I think Foo Fighters have been nominated. You know, it's like best rock album, Foo Fighters. Like there's no one else.

[Tanya Pearson]

There's nobody out.

[Tonya Donnelly]

There's no one else but like out this year. And we're still going to nominate them.

[Tanya Pearson]

This is a good text. My 18 year old daughter's a huge fan of a runic assault. Can't wait to get this book. The book is Pretend We're Dead. Tanya Pearson and Tanya Donnelly, thanks so much for joining me.

[Tanya Donnelly]

Thank you so much. An honor.

[Tonya Donnelly]

Thanks for having us and nice to see you again.

[Tanya Pearson]

Nice to see you.

[Alison Stewart]

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