Allison Stewart (3:13)

So, Alan, did you have any sort of ground rules that you had with Billy when starting out on this project?

Alan Pepper (3:22)

Yes, Allison. I knew I just did not want it to be a bunch of stories about knights at the bottom line, although that's certainly a part of it. And so I said to him, I want it to be a narrative. I wanted to have a beginning, a middle and end. And I want there to be the presence of my partner, Stanley Snadowski, who's no longer with us, and my wife, Eileen, who was very important to me and really amuse throughout our whole life together. So I kind of looked at it, and I presented it to him. I said, billy, this is actually a love story. It's about a time and place, and it's a love story to friendship, romance, and following a dream. And that was the context we set up.

Allison Stewart (4:09)

Billy, in the first few pages, you have Paul Schaeffer, Loudon Wainwright, John Hyatt, Betty Buckley. Later on, there's Suzanne Vega telling stories,

Interviewer/Host (4:17)

Bruce Springsteen, even Buddy Gu.

Allison Stewart (4:20)

When did you decide that an oral

Interviewer/Host (4:22)

history would be part of its form?

Billy Altman (4:24)

Well, Alan was the one that suggested we try and do it as an oral history and as a lifelong critic and journalist. I was like, hmm. Because oral histories can be a little tricky. But I think once we found a way in, which was to proceed chronologically and to just tell the story, because it's so much a story about the city, it's a story about Greenwich Village, it's a story about radio, it's a story about the music business. It's a story about a club that's juggling all of these balls throughout its entire history. And once I was able, then it kind of began to take shape. And then it was just a question of how many of the more than 3,000 artists that played the club were we going to interview and the genres of music that were covered, because the Bottom Line presented everything in its history. So it was a challenge. But Alan was great at guiding me towards people to talk to. And then there were people, musicians that I've known through the years, people associated with the club as well. And eventually it started to. And it takes shape.

Interviewer/Host (5:20)

Alan, the Bottom line opened in 1974. What was the music, the shape of the music scene in Greenwich Village at the time?

Alan Pepper (5:28)

It was a lot more open than it then. By the time it closed, there were a lot of different kind of music clubs. Well, actually, when we opened in 74, the village wasn't having this renaissance. This renaissance actually began once we were. We were open in a fairly desolate part of the city. But in terms of what we started presenting, we were starting to draw five and 6,000 people a week into that area. So the whole Village kind of rejuvenated. And CBGB's had opened, actually, I think, several months before. So there was Seabeez, there was the Bottom Line, and there was Reno Sweeney's. And ultimately there was a very healthy music in the mid to late 70s in the village.

Interviewer/Host (6:25)

Yeah, Billy, CBGB's opened just a couple of months before. And it was sort of a place where you could be like a punk rock and sort of iconoclastic artists appeared there. What did a venue like the Bottom Line offer as a different perspective?

Billy Altman (6:40)

It was so interesting because from the time that I first started going there, the club had immaculate sound. The sound system was tremendous. The sight lines were tremendous. You could see from basically any place that you sat. And I was with the critics all the. But the club was built with little tiers so that even if you sat in the back, you could just look straight through. And when I started to work on the book with Alan, he started telling me about him, how he and Stanley purposefully built the club from scratch. They took over a place called the Red Garter, which had been a beer and banjo joint with people with armbands and that kind of stuff. But they built the club to be a listening room more than anything else. And I think once the club established itself as a listening room and it wasn't so much a scene like you went to CBGBs, you hang out with the punks, you go up to Studio 54, you hang out with the disco crowd. And I was doing all of that also during this, you were busy. I was busy as a working critic. But at the Bottom Line, it was really whoever played there that night, that's the kind of club it was. So when Jimmy Vivino said that it was a rock club, it was a folk club, it was a jazz club, it could be a comedy club, it could be a theater club. And that really every night at the club was like that. I like to tell everybody that my two Maybe my two favorite nights in a row at the Bottom Line is in the spring of 77, they're finishing up Lou Reed, who's basically, as Lenny Kay put it, sparring with his audience, you know, almost getting into fights from the stage. And the next night, there's Dolly Parton playing her first ever solo show in New York and, you know, charming the pants off of Mick Jagger and all the celebrities that had come to see her. And those two nights in a row was the same room, but a completely, completely different atmosphere. And it was to Alan and Stanley's credit that they could pull that off. And night after night after night, over all the years.

Interviewer/Host (8:24)

Alan, why did you call it the Bottom Line?

Alan Pepper (8:27)

Well, it's so interesting. Stanley and I decided that we wouldn't. We wouldn't call the club something that both of us weren't in love with. So I went to him with a whole set of things and he hated it. And he came to me with a whole set of things and I said, keep thinking. And then Stanley was in Puerto Rico and a friend of ours who worked for record company came by where I was working in Folk City. And we went out to eat and I said, did you have a good time? Because it was. He was working for Electra Records and they went out to one of those retreats and I said, did you have a good time? He said, we had a great time until the Bottom Line boys got there. And when I heard that, I said, that's the name. So I called Stanley in Puerto Rico and I kind of held my breath and I said to him, stanley, what's the one term that's used in the music business more than any other term? And he instantly said the Bottom Line. And then he tried it out like he was tasting a fine wine. He said, the Bottom Line. The Bottom line. The bottom line. And he said, yeah, I think that could be it. And it spoke to what both of us were about. For me, the whole thing was about the music and putting together the best of what was available. And for him making the deal, it was always about the bottom line. So it spoke to both of us.

Allison Stewart (9:54)

We are talking about the new book Positively 4th and Mercer, the inside story of New York's iconic music club, the Bottom Line. My guests are co authors, music journalist Billy Altman and Bottom Line co founder Alan Pepper. We have asked you for your remembrances of the Bottom Line. Our phone lines have exploded. Let's talk to some people. Hi, Rob from Brooklyn.

Rob from Brooklyn (10:17)

Hi. I wanted to share something about Alan's kindness and Also making the Bottom Line a place that was affordable. I was a poor kid growing up in Coney island and the Bottom Line became sort of my second home when I could go there. And there were occasions. And so this is a long overdue. Thank you, Alan. When I was a couple of dollars short and he would tell the ticket to, you know, people just give him the ticket for, you know, whatever I had, that was one thing that made it really, really nice. And also there was no minimum. There was no to drink minimum or no, you know, if you wanted to buy food, you did. But it made it so nice. And I always knew just intuitively that it was about the music for him as well. Yes, he was a businessman, he had to stay in business, but that was not the priority that came through even as I was a teenager. So thank you so much. I had so many wonder nights there, and you were a big part of making that happen. Thank you, Alan.

Allison Stewart (11:18)

Thank you so much.

Alan Pepper (11:19)

Thank you.

Interviewer/Host (11:19)

Let's talk to Scott in Manhattan.

Allison Stewart (11:21)

Scott, what do you got to say?

Scott from Manhattan (11:24)

Hi, I'm a huge fan of all three of you and I'd like to. First of all, Jimmy, I just, I have to express my condolences about your amazing brother Floyd. Floyd Pavino was one of the greatest entertainers in history. And he was also, and anyone who's familiar with him will bet back me up on this. He's also one of the greatest piano players I've ever seen. And it's so tragic because I think there, I think, Jimmy, am I wrong? There are thousands of songs.

Interviewer/Host (11:55)

Jimmy's actually not.

Allison Stewart (11:55)

Jimmy's somebody I quoted on in the intro. But thank you for your call.

Interviewer/Host (12:00)

We really appreciate it.

Allison Stewart (12:01)

I want to get to more questions, but we're run out of time.

Interviewer/Host (12:04)

Let me get to my questions.

Allison Stewart (12:04)

I'm sorry to put the callers on hold.

Interviewer/Host (12:08)

Let's talk about Bruce at the Bottom Line. What did you discover when you decided to talk to Bruce for this book?

Billy Altman (12:15)

It was so interesting because, you know, Bruce has talked about his shows there and you know, his five night stand in which he did two shows a night. You know, he was what, 24, 25 years old. He said to me, I could do that in those days, you could do it back to back shows. But the show, you know, Born to Run, his Born to Run album was just about to come out. And when we were able to talk to pretty much everybody, so many people that were involved in that, and to hear from him that, that those five nights he found the Bruce Springsteen on stage that he was still working on getting to. And Alan can speak to the show that he did a year before when he hadn't quite gotten there yet. Right, Alan?

Alan Pepper (12:56)

You know, I was not. I was not necessarily a believer. You know, he had performed the year before. He came out kind of in an undershirt with dark glasses, kind of like that Marlon Brando kind of thing. And you could see he was working on something. You know, you could see was happening, but he hadn't found it yet. And for me, as a businessman, the shows were interminable. And I kept walking around saying to myself, come on, Bruce, I got another show to do. Let's move this along.

Rob from Brooklyn (13:31)

Come on.

Alan Pepper (13:32)

And if you had brought a hundred of your friends, he was there for three nights, I could have gotten you the best seats in the house. Flash forward a year from that point. We have lines down the block and around the corner, and I'm waiting to let some people in in front, and we start talking. And two people had driven up from Philadelphia, and they said. They said, you know, since. Since we've seen Springsteen, he's killed live music for us. I said, what are you talking about? And they said, we can't see anybody, with maybe the exception of the Kinks. And I'm thinking to myself, these people need serious therapy. Anyway, this show happens and Bruce comes on, and, holy mackerel, it had come together for him. He was amazing. And by the end of that engagement, I understood what people meant, because I couldn't. You know, I had a lot of great acts that followed him, but his essence and spirit and energy was still in their room. So it was just. It was just an amazing experience. And one last thing, I'll say for people who might want to buy the book and might be interested in this Springsteen chapter, Billy has done an amazing job. Because he spoke to so many people, he actually puts you in the room. You actually feel that you're sitting at one of those tables watching that concert.

Interviewer/Host (15:01)

This text says it all. The bottom line is one of the city's lost treasures. The name of the book is positively 4th and Mercer. The Inside Story of New York's Iconic Music club. The bottom line. You should definitely get the book, Billy. Thank you, Billy Altman. Thanks for being with us. And thank you, Alan Pepper.

Alan Pepper (15:20)

Thank you, Alice.

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Alan Pepper (15:26)

Uh, yeah.

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