'The Substance' Makeup Artist on Transforming Demi Moore and Respecting the Balance (The Big Picture)

Summary

All Of It: Episode Summary

Episode Title: 'The Substance' Makeup Artist on Transforming Demi Moore and Respecting the Balance (The Big Picture)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guest: Pierre Olivier Persan, Oscar-nominated Makeup Artist
Release Date: February 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the intricate world of special makeup effects in cinema by interviewing Oscar-nominated makeup artist Pierre Olivier Persan. The discussion centers around his transformative work in the horror film The Substance, starring Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley.

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Pierre Olivier Persan's Journey into Makeup Artistry

Early Passion and Inspiration
Pierre Olivier Persan reveals his early fascination with makeup effects, stating,

"When I was 14, 15 years old, I used to have latex and plaster for Christmas and clay, and I spent my teenage years making monsters in my bedroom trying to copy the great makeup from that time, like American Werewolf in London or Gremlins."
(00:17)

Determined Career Path
From a young age, Pierre knew his calling:

"When I was a teenager at the end of the '80s, I knew that I was going to be a special makeup effects artist. And there was no doubt about that."
(02:10)
He highlights the certainty and dedication that fueled his career choice early on.

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Securing the Big Break: Working on 'The Substance'

Initial Contact and Enthusiasm
Pierre shares how he landed the role for The Substance:

"The executive producer called me and said, 'I have that script with lots of prosthetics. Would you like to read it?' I said, 'Yes, sure.' After reading it, I was like, 'That's incredible. I have to do that movie.'"
(02:24 - 03:22)
His proactive approach and passion convinced the producers to bring him on board.

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Collaborating with Director Coralie Farja

Understanding the Director's Vision
A significant part of Pierre’s success lies in his collaboration with director Coralie Farja. He explains,

"You really need to understand what's inside the director's mind. Words are just only the beginning."
(05:38)
Their three-day intensive planning session was pivotal in aligning his makeup effects with Farja’s artistic vision.

Emphasis on Practical Effects
Pierre emphasizes the director’s preference for practical effects:

"Coralie really wanted practical effects as possible. We aimed for an organic journey, focusing on flesh and its transformation."
(05:51 - 06:39)
This approach ensured that the horror elements felt tangible and immersive.

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Techniques and Processes in Creating Effects

Innovative Use of Materials and Technology
Pierre discusses the combination of traditional and modern techniques used in The Substance:

"We used digital sculpting, scanning, and 3D printing alongside traditional prosthetics."
(08:07)
He highlights the use of photogrammetry, a system involving multiple photographs to create accurate molds without exhaustive physical molds on actors.

Ensuring Continuity and Consistency
To maintain consistency in daily shots, Pierre explains,

"We sculpted the character on top of the live cast and created molds to cast silicone appliances. This allowed each day’s makeup to look exactly the same."
(12:54 - 13:51)

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Creating Iconic Scenes and Effects

The Back Birthing Scene
One of the standout moments Pierre worked on was the back birthing scene:

"We used silicone dummies and large prosthetics for the ripping back effect, combining different techniques to achieve the desired visual impact."
(06:58 - 07:57)

Aging Effects on Demi Moore’s Character
Pierre discusses the portrayal of rapid aging:

"We balanced realism and fantasy, researching real aging effects and integrating creative designs to visualize the transformation."
(10:46 - 11:18)

New Year's Eve Sequence and the Falling Ear
Addressing specific effects like the falling ear, Pierre states,

"We focused on gluing down the ear and covering it with prosthetics, relying heavily on camera angles to enhance the illusion."
(14:14 - 14:41)

Final Monster Sequence
For the climactic monster appearance, Pierre elaborates,

"Margaret Qualley was inside the suits for wider shots, while a stunt double was used for the most complex scenes to capture both performance and physicality."
(14:41 - 15:02)
He underscores the importance of showing the character’s emotions through eye expressions, maintaining a balance between performance and practical effects.

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Actor Experience and On-Set Dynamics

Balancing Comfort and Performance
Pierre acknowledges the physical demands on actors:

"Actors have to sit for hours during makeup application. We strive to make the process as comfortable as possible, ensuring they can stay in character or take necessary breaks."
(09:06 - 09:28)
He emphasizes sensitivity towards actors' well-being amidst the technical challenges.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Alison Stewart expressing her appreciation for Pierre’s insightful contributions. Pierre reflects on the collaborative experience, stating,

"Working on The Substance was a fantastic journey, blending technical expertise with creative storytelling to bring the director’s vision to life."
(16:35 - 16:45)

All Of It offers a profound look into the meticulous artistry behind cinematic makeup effects, showcasing how Pierre Olivier Persan’s dedication and innovative techniques elevate the storytelling in horror films like The Substance.

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Notable Quotes

• Alison Stewart:
  "When you first read the script for The Substance, what was your first reaction?"
  (01:21)

• Pierre Olivier Persan:
  "The whole point was to have a very organic journey, focusing on flesh and its transformation."
  (05:51)

• Pierre Olivier Persan:
  "We used digital sculpting, scanning, and 3D printing alongside traditional prosthetics."
  (08:07)

• Pierre Olivier Persan:
  "We strive to make the process as comfortable as possible, ensuring actors can stay in character or take necessary breaks."
  (09:06)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing listeners with an in-depth understanding of Pierre Olivier Persan’s contributions to The Substance and the broader field of makeup artistry in film.

Transcript

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Listener support, WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue now our series the Big Picture. That's when we speak to Oscar nominees who worked behind the camera to make excellent films. The work of our next guest requires a lot of work before the director yells action, but then you can see his work full throttle in the film. The Substance. From the unforgettable spinal birth scene to the creature at the end of the movie, it's because of special makeup effects by designer Pierre Olivier Persan. He works with a team to help achieve the body horror vision of writer Coralie Farja. He spent hours each day transforming Demi Moore into Elizabeth Sparkle, a movie star who begins aging rapidly after she takes an unusual black market drug. If you've seen the movie, you know how key the makeup is to telling this story. The Substance is one of only seven horror movies to ever be nominated for Best Picture at the Oscars. And Pierre Olivier is nominated as well for best makeup and hair styling. Welcome.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Hello.

[Alison Stewart]

Hello. How did you get your start as a makeup artist? I know it's an obvious question, but I want to know.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Oh, well, When I was 14, 15 years old, I used to have late and plaster for Christmas and clay, and I spent my teenage years doing making monsters in my bedroom out of my bedroom and trying to, to copy the, the, the, the great makeup from that time, like the American Werewolf in London or, I don't know, Gremlin. So, you know, the end of the 80s for me.

[Alison Stewart]

When was your big break? When you knew this is going to be a career for me?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Oh, when I was teenager at the end of the 80s, I knew that I was going to be a special makeup effects artist. And there was no doubt about that.

[Alison Stewart]

That is such a great thing to know when you're a teenager. You knew this is what you wanted to do.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, that's a. I don't know if it's a chance. That's a big chance. Yeah. To know after that. It's lots of work, but that's a big chance. I agree.

[Alison Stewart]

When you first read the script for the Substance, what was your first reaction?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Well, there is a funny story because the, the executive producer called me and he said, okay, I have that script with lots of prosthetics. Would you like to read it? I said, yes, sure. But, you know, they always say that and sometimes, you know, you end up doing just only a couple of things. So I said, yeah, sure, send it over. And then I read the script and I was like, oh, that's incredible. That's terrific. I have to do that movie. So I was the one crawling back at him saying, oh, I have to. Please let me do the movie. That was my start of the show.

[Alison Stewart]

What were some.

[Unknown]

How were the visual descriptions written into the script?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Some of it was. So, for instance, for the monstro, the, the monster at the end of the movie, it was clearly written that Elizabeth Sparkle's face was, was, was stuck on the back of the monster with that scream, terrible screaming face that was written down. But it wasn't written that she, she, she. But she wasn't described apart from that. So it was a little bit of both worlds.

[Unknown]

Sadly, I think I'm gonna have to ask you to turn your camera off.

[Alison Stewart]

Because you're coming to us from France and you keep stuttering a little bit. So I have to say goodbye to you that way. But otherwise we'll talk. My guest is makeup artist Pierre Olivier Persan. He's the Oscar nominated for his work on the Substance. It's starring Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley.

[Unknown]

You told the LA Times that sat.

[Alison Stewart]

With the director for three days, just.

[Unknown]

Going over all of the different looks.

[Alison Stewart]

What was helpful about that process?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Well, you read the script, but that's only a start. And then you really need to understand what's inside the director's mind. And words are just only the beginning, so. Because sometimes you can have just a couple of words, but it's going to be like an epic sequence or sometimes you think something very big in the movie, but the director will say it's going to last only a few seconds. Don't worry too much about that. So that was really important. And what I discovered is that the director, Coralie Farja, really want practical effects as possible. And that was the big thing I discovered. And I was like, after those three days, wow, that's going to be big.

[Unknown]

It's interesting because so many of the effects are practical effects. Why was it so important to you and the director that the effects be mostly practical?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

That's a good question. When watching the movie that. When she was watching the movie, she wanted to touch what she was seeing on screen. And I guess that's. That was why we did that that way. That was the, the whole point, to have a very organic journey, in a way, while watching the movie. It's all about flesh and, I don't know, turning into weird things. And it's gooey and it's full of wrinkles and boobs and whatever. So, yeah, I guess Carly wanted that to the movie.

[Unknown]

Let's start with the back birthing scene where we see sue sort of emerges from Elizabeth's birthday back. That is Mark Quality's character versus Demi Moore's character. Why is that the place you wanted to start? It was the first thing that you worked on the back birthing scene.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, that's correct. And that was lots of fun. I don't know. What can I say? We used. Used different kind of makeup effects for that. We used silicone dummies. They were a bit like big, realistic puppets. And we had raised sets and with my team, we were below the set and we were perpetuating this dummies of the rippling effect and the back splitting open and all that. So that was one part of the effects. And then we had really big prosthetics that we applied on the actress for all the stitching and the. The big wound and all that. So it was using different techniques depending on the shot.

[Unknown]

For many of the shots, you created moles and scans of the actors in this film. What does that allow you to do in your work?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, we used a little bit of everything. We used. Yeah, it's true. We used digital sculpting and scan and 3D printing. But we also used very traditional techniques. Regarding the. For instance, when you do. We used to do. Back in the days we used to full bodies, and it's really difficult for the actor to stay for two hours while people are trying to live. Cast your body. It can be a very difficult experience and very physical. And you don't want to put anybody through that. With scan, you can just. You know, what we use is photogrammetry, and it's a system. You just take 200 pictures at the same time.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, wow, that's really interesting.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

That's fascinating. So you don't torture anyone?

[Alison Stewart]

Well, sometimes you do have to torture them. They have to sit as the molding is applied to them. It could take an hour. It could take up to seven hours. What do you do with an actor for all of those hours where they have to sit there and they have to be still?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, they do. When we apply the prosthetics, when we glue the prosthetics, blend the edges, paint and color all the appliances, apply wigs and all that. It's quite time consuming. That's true. And yes, they have to sit still. The best is when they follow what you're doing. Sometimes they can fall asleep, but sometimes you want them to be awake because you want them to close their eyes, look up for me. And whatever we do breaks. Obviously, and you have to be very aware of feelings. And if you can feel or sense that there is something wrong or you just have a break and, you know, and sometimes you're gonna. You're gonna chat, and sometimes you're gonna feel that they want to stay in character. Anything. They don't want to speak. So you just stick to your work. Depending on the. Yeah, we are working on human beings, very sensitive human beings. So you also need to be careful. Sometimes. You. We are so focused because it's so technical, we tend to forget a little bit about that. But you have to keep that in mind.

[Unknown]

My guest is makeup artist Pierre Olivier Persan. He's Oscar nominated for his work on the substance. So when sue doesn't respect the balance of the substance, Elizabeth's body begins to show rapid aging. At first it's a finger, and then it's more and more. What sort of research did you do into how the body begins to look as it ages? Especially that finger?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Well, for the finger, actually, it was. I didn't research anything. It just. It just. It was a. It came naturally. And we had to find a balance between realism and fantasy. Coralie, like, we wanted the characters to be believable and the prosthetics to be believable, but also Koali wanted to be free and to go crazy if needed. And so that was a fine line between that. So we researched the effect of aging on full bodies, on naked bodies, and we. We looked for hunchback. Real people, and we had spines. Then you. You. You feed yourself with all that. But then you. You try to. To come up with your own design. So some movies, you. You're gonna have to do very realistic things because. But that movie, we have that little. Yeah, fantasy license.

[Unknown]

We got a call from a listener with a really good question. It says, how do you apply it the same every day? So there's no continuity issues ever?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

That's a very good question. What we do is because, okay, you start with a live cast or scan of the face. For instance, you sculpt the new character on top of the live cast. So, for instance, the Demi Moore makeup. And then we take moles of the sculpture. So from those moles, we are able to cast silicone appliances that we're going to apply every day on the actress. So If I have 40 days of shooting, I will be able to cast 40. 40 sets of prosthetics from those molds and apply them. So the appliances are going to look exactly the same because they all come from the same molds. So Each day the makeup is going to look exactly the same.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, there's a New Year's Eve sequence and I'm not giving too much away, but body parts start coming off at one point. What went into creating that effect?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Which one are you referring to?

[Alison Stewart]

For example, when her. When her ear falls off. Oh, her ear falls off.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Sorry. So sorry. Spoiler. It's my fault. I feel terribly guilty now. And what was the. Oh, well, you just try to do your best to glue down the ear and cover it with an appliance and, yeah, camera angle will help a lot.

[Alison Stewart]

In the final scene. As long as we're giving away spoilers. There's this giant monster. We see this Elias Issu, maybe something else. This big creature. It's got body parts and face parts and all kinds of parts. Was there actually an actor in a suit for that sequence?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, yes, yes. For the clothes, we had Margaret Qualley inside the suits. And for all the wider shots and all the. Well, the most complete. No. Spoiler. Most complicated shot, we had a stunt double. So, yes, it was a suit and a prosthetic makeup applied on her face.

[Unknown]

It's interesting, though.

[Alison Stewart]

I knew it was mark quality in the suit, but you can see it in her eyes. And I thought that was really interesting.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Precisely. I had a lot of discussions with Koali when we were prepping the movie, and I was like, okay, the suit is going to be difficult to wear. We should use the stunt double all the time. And Koali was like, I want to use Margaret for the close ups because it's really a performance. And the character, the monster is really tragic. I mean, what's happening to the character is really tragic during the movie. And she wanted to see her eyes. Eye. She really wanted to see what the character was coming through, going through.

[Unknown]

My guest has been artist Pierre Olivier Persan. He's an artist and a makeup artist, I should say. He's Oscar nominated for his work in the substance. Thank you so much for being with us. I really enjoyed the conversation.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Thank you so much for having me. That was great.