All Of It (WNYC) — “The Woman Behind the Science of FBI Criminal Profiling”
Air Date: July 18, 2024
Guests: Dr. Ann Burgess (pioneering psychiatric nurse and FBI consultant) and Danny Sloan (showrunner, To Think Like a Killer)
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the fascinating, often overlooked career of Dr. Ann Burgess, a psychiatric nurse whose work with victims of sexual assault directly shaped the behavioral profiling techniques now synonymous with the FBI. Exploring her contributions, the challenges she faced as a woman in a male-dominated field, and her ongoing legacy, host Kusha Navadar is joined by Dr. Burgess and Danny Sloan, showrunner of the Hulu docuseries “To Think Like a Killer.” Together, they discuss the origins of criminal profiling, the evolution of Dr. Burgess’s methodology, and the societal shifts in crime and its study.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Ann Burgess’s Early Life and Career Path

[03:05]

• Family Influence: Dr. Burgess describes being influenced by relatives in medicine and early experiences as a candy striper.
• Choosing Nursing: Practicality was key; parental advice about supporting herself pushed her toward nursing over her dream of being a concert pianist.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “My mother always said, well, you have to support yourself... So I became much more practical.” (03:47)

2. The Making of the Documentary

[04:34]

• Why Dr. Burgess? Danny Sloan discusses her draw to stories where extraordinary people drive cultural change, particularly women breaking barriers.
• Quote (Danny Sloan):
  “...Holding onto your ideas with such conviction, even when other people tell you they’re not right, or really just being this driving force in changing culture before culture is ready for it.” (04:48)

[06:35]

• Inspiration: Sloan first became aware of Burgess from pop culture (e.g., “Mindhunter”), but reading Dr. Burgess’s book revealed the true depth of her story.

3. Convincing Dr. Burgess to Participate

[07:33]

• Hesitance & Curiosity: Dr. Burgess was initially reluctant, unsure what interest her life would generate, but saw an opportunity to learn and educate others.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “I was not real excited about this in any way in the beginning. And then I got curious about it because it’s a whole new area. I like new areas.” (07:33)

4. Pioneering Research on Sexual Assault

[09:16]

• Academic Roots: Partnership with sociologist Linda Lytle Holmstrom was instrumental. Their research at Boston City Hospital highlighted patterns in victim experiences.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “We were just going to research what it was like for a woman...coming in with the complaint of rape. And one of the first things we learned is half of them...never would have come in on their own. Somebody else brought them in.” (10:36)

5. Ethics of Representation in Crime Media

[11:44]

• Sensitive Topics: Sloan shares the challenges of including stories of sexual violence respectfully, focusing only on what serves the narrative's larger points.
• Quote (Danny Sloan):
  “We never want to include gratuitous detail. We never want to kind of retraumatize anyone.” (11:47)

6. Sexism and Marginalization at the FBI

[12:56]

• Erasure: Not being pictured or credited in publications didn’t bother Dr. Burgess, who preferred anonymity in a male-dominated environment.
• Quote (Narrator/Clip):
  “...It is rage making. Dr. Burgess had done really important, incredible work, and yet the men...did not see fit to ask her to join them.” (13:26)
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “It might even look odd if you at that time had a female in there. Maybe it’s better I wasn’t in it. So I love it that we can go back and forth...I was telling a whole different story and it didn’t bother me.” (15:24)

7. Methodology & the Birth of Criminal Profiling

[17:32]

• Systematizing Interviews: Dr. Burgess brought academic rigor to FBI profiling, developing questionnaires to identify behavioral patterns.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “So my first task was to get a questionnaire, make sure we were getting not only the interview, but to get all of the background information.” (17:32)

8. Case Studies & Investigative Breakthroughs

[18:41]

• The John Joubert Case: Dr. Burgess’s logical detective work, noticing details in footprints, helped identify the perpetrator and built the discipline's methodology.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “They said two people had walked into the woods...only one set came out. So how do you explain it?...The offender should be small...” (18:56)

9. Crafting the Docuseries Narrative

[20:11]

• Story Selection: Sloan describes the challenge of condensing Burgess’s vast career and choosing cases where she visibly learned and evolved.
• Quote (Danny Sloan):
  “Dr. Burgess had to learn something very specific from each case...that knowledge, case to case, had to kind of build on each other.” (21:11)

10. Work-Life Balance & Resilience

[22:49]

• Family: Inclusion of her family’s perspectives provided new insight even to Dr. Burgess.
• Coping: Her nursing background allowed her to compartmentalize traumatic content and recover at home.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “You take care of patients, you see all kinds of other things so that you kind of compartmentalize it.” (23:10)

11. Post-FBI Career and the Future of Profiling

[23:51]

• Legal Consulting & Teaching: After retirement from the FBI, Dr. Burgess moved fully into teaching and forensic legal consultation, continuing to educate the next generation.
• Trends in Crime: Serial killers are less common; crimes have evolved toward mass shootings, shifting the focus of profiling.
• Quote (Dr. Burgess):
  “There certainly are some serial killers out there now, but there are very few...the crime now has gone to more mass shooters. This is what...places all of us at risk.” (24:39)

12. The Documentary’s Title and Dr. Burgess’s Humility

[25:45]

• “Mastermind”: The title reflects her pivotal, often-hidden influence as the architect behind criminal profiling.
• Quote (Danny Sloan):
  “She is this hidden figure who was kind of at all of these really important junctures of...history...she influenced your life probably in some way.” (26:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gender Dynamics at the FBI
  Dr. Burgess: “I just wanted to stay under the radar. I didn’t want to draw any attention to that...Not that it was a secret project, but we were just as happy not to get too much recognition until you had a good breakthrough.” (15:24)

• On Why She Did the Film
  Danny Sloan: “She did this because she wanted the work to continue, and she wanted...a new generation to understand where we had come from and what there is still to do.” (06:39)

• On the Changing Nature of Crime
  Dr. Burgess: “Serial killers tended to have one target, whereas mass shooters — any of us can be a target...So now you have to teach more about how do you avoid, if you can, any danger.” (24:39)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:05] – Dr. Burgess’s early influences and family background
• [04:34] – Danny Sloan’s motivations and initial exposure to Burgess’s story
• [07:33] – Dr. Burgess reflects on being the subject of the documentary
• [09:16] – Origin of Burgess’s research into sexual assault
• [12:56] – Sexism at the FBI and exclusion from public recognition
• [17:32] – Methodology and creation of profiling techniques
• [18:41] – The Joubert case and deductive logic in profiling
• [20:11] – Challenges in documentary storytelling and choosing which cases to include
• [22:49] – Family impact and coping with difficult work
• [23:51] – Dr. Burgess’s post-FBI career and legacy
• [24:39] – Shifts in crime from serial killers to mass shootings
• [25:45] – The meaning behind the documentary’s title

Conclusion

This episode provides a rich, nuanced portrait of Dr. Ann Burgess: a quietly groundbreaking figure whose persistence, empathy, and intellectual rigor advanced law enforcement, gave voice to survivors, and helped forge one of the FBI’s most famous methodologies. With context from both Dr. Burgess and showrunner Danny Sloan, the discussion captures the personal, cultural, and professional stakes of recognizing contributions that have long gone unsung. The result is both inspiring for anyone interested in justice and sobering in its reminder of the ongoing, evolving nature of violence and those who work against it.