Alison Stewart (3:05)

It's sort of interesting in television now, an antihero can be a hero, can be someone you root for. Yeah, once upon a time. It wasn't always like that.

Brian Tyree Henry (3:14)

No, I know. You know, it used to be a time that if you were a bad guy on television, people would find you in the street and throw things at you because they thought that's who you were. But I think there's just something about the humanity to who they are. Like once you realize that this could be you at any given point. That's the great thing about Dope Thief is that every single episode is truly a twist and turn where you're just like, is he gonna make it? He might not make it. And it's also like, yeah, if the situations went this way, maybe it would've happened this way. And so you just never know. So it's all about this just making that one wrong turn. Right? Making that one wrong decision, which has basically been the narrative of Rhea's life.

Alison Stewart (3:50)

When was the time when Brian the EP had a difference opinion, difference from opinion than Brian the actor?

Brian Tyree Henry (3:58)

I mean, there are a few times. There's a few times because like you're having discussions about, you know, each episode and what it takes to make each episode. And then you're going to set and you're laying on the ground crying for your life. Cause you've just been shot through the leg and you're trying to figure out what that looks like. But also, is this the right kind of blood? Is this the right kind of dog that we need? You know, like your baby pictures from when you were a kid are up on the wall and you're just like, is this right? Is this the tone? But you know, one of my favorite moments, honestly is that when this strike happened, I remember just the fear that kind of went through all of us because we really didn't know what it meant. And, you know, a lot of people were gonna be out of jobs for a long time, and we didn't know what was gonna happen. I remember thinking, I was like, well, how can I boost morale in the best possible way? And so one of my colleagues, Jessica Kunis, who's our set photographer, one of my best friends, we went to her house, and I was like, I'm gonna get bouncy castles. I was like, I'm making an executive decision. I'm gonna get bouncy castles.

Alison Stewart (4:59)

Bouncy castles.

Brian Tyree Henry (5:00)

I'm gonna get bouncy castles. We're gonna get all different kinds of fun treats. We're gonna barbecue, and we're just gonna get on these bouncy castles, and we're gonna just, like, rage out just so people can feel like they can get it all out. Because it was uncertain for all of us. For all of us. And I just remember how amazing that day was to see these grown adults just bouncing in this castle, screaming at the top of our lungs. But those are the things that I like. Like, those are very much parts of me and who I am, because, you know, I do love what I do, but, you know, it's also so uncertain at any given point in time, much like the strike showed us. So why not, you know, have a bouncy castle, just in case?

Alison Stewart (5:36)

You said you stayed in Philly during the strike?

Brian Tyree Henry (5:39)

Yes, I did.

Alison Stewart (5:40)

What did you find unique about Philly?

Brian Tyree Henry (5:42)

Oh, my goodness. There's so many things about Philly. Well, one, I lived in New York for over 13 years. This is where I cut my teeth. This is. This city will always be so incredibly special to me. As I was reminiscing about the first place I lived in New York, because I had no concept of New York. Like, everything you knew was Manhattan, Manhattan, Manhattan. But they'll never tell you when you're starting here. As a theater person, you probably will not be able to afford Manhattan, so you gotta live somewhere else. And the first place I lived was Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. There are people in here laughing. You can't see them, but they're like, what? Yeah. I lived in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, and I was doing theater at the Public Theater at the time. So to get you to understand the distance that takes, because theater is six days a week, eight shows a week. I was 26 years old. This is the only time I would suggest you do this is when you're in your 20s, because you have hopes and dreams, and you're still young and elastic. But it would take a 20 minute walk from my house to the train station because the buses weren't always running. And then if it was express, it would be the B. But then usually it wasn't. So it was the local Q. And I remember being on the Q train. You'd be on there for at least an hour, 45 minutes. And I remember us going from past Avenue A all the way to Avenue Z. I was like, oh, there's Alphabet. Like, it goes all the way from A to Z. There is no Avenue Q. And I was like, oh, that's where there's no. But I would be on this train for so long. But I just remember thinking, like, this is the life. Like, I was like, I would. Like, I absolutely loved it. This was the time where it was ipod shuffles, where it was just that little block you had where you couldn't see that you put on. And I would clip it in my shirt and I'd walk through the. I mean, it was the life. I was on food stamps, but I was doing a play at the Public Theater. Like, I can't even explain to you how awesome it was, man. Like, it was just so great. And I was starving, but it was fine. I would go to Western Beef and get, you know, like, get like cold cuts. And, you know, I would make latkes. Cause that was the only thing that was cheap at the. Like, oh, man. And I'm grinning about it now. Like, I just remember y'.

Alison Stewart (7:57)

All. West beast. Mr.

Brian Tyree Henry (7:58)

Beef was the jump off. Okay. $125 went a long way. But yeah, it was. I don't know, man. It was truly the best time of my life and with some of the best community of my life. And New York made that for me. Like, I know that I wouldn't be sitting across from you, Alison, talking about my series that I did if I had not started the way I started here in New York. It just was. Yeah. What was your question again?

Alison Stewart (8:26)

No, but you said Western Beef and ipod shuffle.

Brian Tyree Henry (8:31)

I was like, just the meat and potatoes of it. Yeah.

Alison Stewart (8:35)

What would you say was your big break?

Brian Tyree Henry (8:38)

You know, my big break had to have been when I got cast in Shakespeare in the park right out of school. I had actually not. I had not graduated Yale yet. I was seen by this wonderful director, Michael Greif, because I had done under the Radar festival at the Public. So I was going back and forth between New York to New Haven, New York to New Haven, which is so strange that there is a train that goes from New York to New Haven. I'm like, who is going to New Haven? And I said, oh, right, there's a major theater. So. And I would go back and forth, and I was seen in that production. And I got cast as Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet. And Oscar Isaac was my Romeo. Lauren Ambrose was my Juliet. Michael Kristoffer was Lord Capulet. Cameron Manhattan was like, ah. And I wasn't making any money. I'm not trying to call the public out, but back then, this was 2008, I think I was making 250 bucks a week. 250 bucks. And you couldn't tell me anything. I was like, man, yeah, 250 bucks, man. Like, I was like, and I get to do this in the park. And, you know, like, it was truly. And I hadn't graduated yet, so I had to go back and forth between rehearsal and school. And it was just the best. It was just the best time of my life. And that was one break, right? And then I went and did the Brother Size, written by Terrell McCraney at the Public. But then I ended up doing the Book of Mormon. Mormon. I don't. Like, I somehow fell into musical theater, and I. And I originated the Book of Mormon. And that was the first time I was like, I'm making money on stage. Like, money, money, money, money. Like, Book of Mormon was a phenomenon, But I also knew that wasn't my place, you know, Like, I wasn't a musical theater person. The musical theater mindset, it has. It's another evolution. It's another skill set. It truly, truly is. And. And I respect musical theater for that, but that wasn't what I knew myself to do. Like, that wasn't a muscle that I had. And I stayed for three years. I stayed in that for three years, but I made myself a lead in that. You know, I had Equity come and see me one evening. I was like, I think that I'm a lead. You know, I get this really big laugh. And I think. And they were like, yeah, you are a lead. And what I didn't know is that when you're made a lead after being an ensemble, your minimum is a year. And I was like, what? Like, I was this for a year. Like, nobody told me that. I would not have advocated.

Alison Stewart (10:55)

They didn't tell me that at Yale.

Brian Tyree Henry (10:56)

They didn't tell me that. They don't. That's the stuff they don't tell you. But also, I was like, all right, well, let's just go with it. And I Stayed for three years. And I remember leaving. And that was that moment, that titular moment, I think that every creative goes through of like, well, I haven't done this. I wasn't on television. I wasn't doing this stuff. I was like, well, how much more do I have? You know, you come out of institutions like that, and it's easy to think that your life is gonna go this way. And I was a kamikaze mission. I didn't understand a lot of it. I just went with the flow. Like, I'm very much like, if people tell me to try this, I'll try it. And, you know, But I didn't have a guideline of how I thought my career would go. And I remember standing in my kitchen, I had just left Book of Mormon. I was like, well, you gotta give yourself the biggest push you can. Go as hard as you can, try as hard as you can. And I linked up with my now manager, you know, who was recommended to me through a good friend. And she put the script Atlanta in front of me. And I remember getting the script Atlanta. And in five pages, I was like, so, Alfred. I'm going in for Alfred, right? I was like, okay. And I remember going into this audition just unencumbered. I wasn't nervous. Cause I knew who this guy was. The guy had gone to college in Atlanta. Like, Alfred was literally modeled after one of my best friends. Like, I knew this guy. I was like, this is the guy I used to smoke weed with. This is the guy who told me how to roll a blunt. This is the guy who I went to drive throughs with 12 o' clock and got crystal sandwiches with. And. And I got it. And I just remember thinking like this. I knew that it was different. I didn't know how much of a phenomenon it would be. But I just knew that I knew Alfred. And I knew that people needed to know Alfred, too. Because Alfred helped me be where I am. And the rest is history. You know, here we are, and it's all just so full circle. Even sitting here across from you right now, I'm just like, all right. Like, every time I come back to the city, I'm like, man, like, yeah, this is like where I did it. Like, you know? And I always have respect for that.

Alison Stewart (12:52)

So, yeah, I want to ask you about the series. So Ray, he's impersonating a DA agent robbing houses. As one does.

Brian Tyree Henry (13:01)

As one does.

Alison Stewart (13:04)

How did they get in this scheme to rob houses as fake DA agents?

Brian Tyree Henry (13:10)

You know, I remember really rubbing up against this because they're so bad at it. Like, that's the other thing. I was like, they're so. I love anti heroes who are absolutely terrible at what they do, because there's a desperation, right? There's this mode of survival that they're going through. So I had to start at the very beginning. So I was like, okay, well, Ray, his father has been in the system. And unfortunately, the way the statistics show is usually if you have a parent that's a part of the life of recidivism, more than likely you will be a part of it as well. You also have this dynamic of, you know, him having this foster mom, Kate Mulgrew, who's great. Kate Mulgrew, the. Listen, listen. If you are listening, you Google Kate Mulgrew. You send her, like, Shamrock. She's, like, Irish. So it's St. Patrick's Day, so happy St. Patrick's Day, Ma. But she's one of the best that's ever done it. But then I was like, but also, you have this white woman who takes on this young black kid. And what does that mean? And then he's incarcerated at the age of 15, not because he's selling drugs, not because of a car accident. Circumstantial things. And usually what I find is that when you incarcerate a black or brown man at a certain age, that's the age they usually stay. Mentally. It's, like, kind of where they stay. That's where the system kind of keeps them trapped. And then you have them developing as men under this system, right? And so now you come to this show where you see them out as men, as grown men, and they're posing as DEA agents. Not only are they posing as DEA agents, they're doing it during the time. Like, I think it's the year right after Covid. And I just was like, oh, yeah? So what are they supposed to do? Did they go in? Did they at least try to get a job at Best Buy? Did they think about, you know? And I'm like, well, they couldn't, you know? Like, I'm pretty sure that their backs were against the wall in a way that they just couldn't figure out. And so you watch them kind of turn on this kind of, like, facade of being these agents, you know, like. Cause I was like, wow. They went and got coats printed and hats made and all this stuff. And y' all ain't want to go apply at Chipotle or nothing, I guess, like. But it's easy, right? Cause what you're technically kind of watching is them still very much in a childlike state. Like you're still watching these grown men be 15 year olds playing dress up in a way. And that intrigued me. There was just something that was really intriguing about that also. The city of Philly as the backdrop. Because I always am tasked with playing these men who are natives and locals of the city that they're in. And the city is usually the backdrop of their lives and their destiny. So with Alfred, he's never left Atlanta. When I played James in Causeway, he never left, you know, and now you have Ray, who's never left Philly. And these cities not only are the places that made them, but also the places that kept them trapped. Right. It kept them feeling like they couldn't go anywhere. And that was intriguing to me for Ray, because of course, as a convicted felon, you know, like, he's not really able to go anywhere. And now he's created this situation where Philly is now trying to kill him. Like, now everything in Philly is trying to kill him and he's never thought about going anywhere else. So I'm always intrigued by that because I was a runaway, like, the minute I could, I was like, where does this bus go? I'll go. I don't know. Like, I didn't even know Yale was in Connecticut until I got to Yale. I was like, oh, that's fine. It says north. All right, cool. But that's just always been me, like. And so I'm always captivated by these men who. Who choose to stay or have no choice but to stay and what that life looks like, because that means that that city is also the backdrop to lots of milestones in their life. Their biggest losses, their first loves, all those things. So that was really intriguing to me. And seeing how Ray had to navigate this city, that also told him he couldn't be any more than what it wanted him to be.

Alison Stewart (16:59)

That was my conversation with Brian Tyree Henry, the executive producer and Emmy nominated star of Dope Thief. Coming up, we'll hear about season three of the crime thriller Dark Winds. Stick around. This is all of it. Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.