Wallace Shawn's Films at Metrograph

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Wallace Shawn's Films at Metrograph”

All Of It with Alison Stewart, WNYC – May 11, 2026

---

Overview

This episode celebrates the film and theatrical work of Wallace Shawn, coinciding with two New York City events: the Metrograph’s film series “Wallace the Master Builder” and the staging of Shawn’s latest play, “What We Did Before Our Moth Days” at Greenwich House Theater. Host Alison Stewart is joined by Wallace Shawn, actor John Early, and assistant director Lucas Cain, to discuss Shawn’s multifaceted career, the creation of the Metrograph series, and the artistic process behind both his films and plays.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the “Wallace the Master Builder” Film Series

• Genesis:
  • John Early and Lucas Cain, deeply involved in Shawn’s play “What We Did Before Our Moth Days,” decided to curate a film retrospective to showcase Shawn’s cinematic contributions.
    • John Early (01:23): “I think we’re so excited to be a part of this little world and we wanted to ... bring some attention to some of these films that have come from that world.”
  • The series highlights lesser-known films, such as “Marie and Bruce,” which received its first public screening.
  • Notable Moment (01:45): The screening was packed with “Wally alums,” showing the ongoing impact of Shawn’s collaborations.

2. Wallace Shawn’s Reaction to the Retrospective

• Surprise and Reflection:
  • Shawn expresses surprise and pleasure at the honor, particularly as it brings attention to his lesser-known work.
    • Wallace Shawn (02:38): “My whole life has changed from being hated to being sort of respected... Sometimes you get treated with more respect because you were there when people were children.”
  • He reflects humorously and honestly on the shifting attitudes toward artists as they age.
    • Wallace Shawn (04:11): “Tennessee Williams died quite miserably.”

3. The Scope and Relevance of Shawn’s Work

• Depth and Political Relevance:
  • Lucas Cain highlights how each discovery in Shawn’s oeuvre reveals new layers, especially works like “The Designated Mourner,” which explores society’s descent into fascism.
    • Lucas Cain (04:20): “It’s a testament to Wally’s skill as a playwright, but also his curiosity ... and his sort of political commitments.”
  • Shawn’s enduring relevance resonates with younger generations of artists.

4. Translating Plays to Film

• Medium Differences:
  • Discussion centers on how Shawn’s plays adapt to the screen.
    • Lucas Cain (05:30): “It’s not a filmed play, it’s a film. But it’s able to sort of translate the directness of, you know, Wally and Andre’s work on stage into a different medium.”
  • Shawn humorously defers giving a quick answer, noting the difficulty of the question.
    • Wallace Shawn (06:35): “My instinct would be to take a couple of days to think of the answer to that.”
• Theatrical Reality vs. Film Construction:
  • Wallace Shawn (07:20): "A play is actually a real experience...Film is made up...it’s not real by the time it’s chopped up and packaged."

5. Iconic Roles and Influences

• "Clueless" as a Gateway:

  • Early shares that “Clueless” was his introduction to Shawn’s work, illustrating Shawn’s reach in pop culture.
    • John Early (08:43): “Clueless for me, was certainly where I first fell in love with Wally. It’s a totally brilliant movie...”
  • The audience reaction to “Clueless” is discussed as a testament to both the film’s enduring charm and Shawn’s performance.
    • John Early (09:53): “People were just screaming, laughing. People seemed also very sniffly and moved by the tenderness in it.”

• Shawn’s Perspective on "Clueless":

  • Wallace Shawn (10:25): “This is a Hollywood movie that if they were all like that, we’d have a beautiful society...It fits in very well with some of the more quote-unquote highbrow ones like the Designated Mourner...”

6. Theater, Film, and the Role of the Actor

• Vanya on 42nd Street:
  • Lucas Cain was inspired by the film's encapsulation of the theater process.
    • Lucas Cain (12:00): “...Such an extraordinary encapsulation of the theater process…stoked this fantasy of what theater could be...”
  • Early notes Shawn’s transition from character actor to leading man in this film.
    • John Early (13:00): “It was amazing seeing him in a leading role, and we wanted to feature some of those in the series, too.”
• Reflections on Casting and Voice:
  • Shawn discusses the barriers faced by “character actors” and muses on perceptions of his own voice.
    • Wallace Shawn (13:42): “If you’re short...you’re not offered leading parts...I have a funny voice, not to myself, but other people think so...That’s up to you to decide. You’ve heard me.”

7. Collaboration with Andre Gregory

• Directorial Approach:
  • Early and Cain describe Gregory’s unique, patient, almost psychoanalytic approach to directing, emphasizing presence and subtlety.
    • John Early (18:14): “It’s sort of similar to psychoanalysis in the way that a really good analyst just kind of sits there with patience and kindness...the big directorial gesture is just time and patience.”
    • Lucas Cain (19:20): “He exudes a love of the actors and acting and process itself...allows the depth in Wally’s words to rise to the surface.”

8. Thematic Pairing: “What We Did Before Our Moth Days” & “The Fever”

• Contrasting Views on Class:
  • Shawn explains that “Moth Days” is a loving portrait of his class, while “The Fever” is a "brutal denunciation."
    • Wallace Shawn (20:28): “I love so many individuals of the bourgeois class...But I do think that my class is the beneficiary of the very cruel system...in which the United States has played a very large part in suppressing the rest of humanity in favor of us.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Receiving Respect with Age:
  • Wallace Shawn (02:38): “My whole life has changed from being hated to being sort of respected...sometimes you get treated with more respect because you were there when people were children.”
• On Theater vs. Film:
  • Wallace Shawn (07:20): “A play is actually a real experience ... Film is made up ... it’s not real by the time it’s chopped up and packaged.”
• On Roles and Typecasting:
  • Wallace Shawn (13:42): “Nobody is born wanting to be a character actor...If you’re short...you’re not offered leading parts.”
• On Political Commitments in His Work:
  • Wallace Shawn (20:28): “I do think that my class is the beneficiary of the very cruel system...in which the United States has played a very large part in suppressing the rest of humanity in favor of us.”
• Audience Reaction:
  • Listener Text (22:05): “I always liked Wallace Shawn. Now I love him. Keep on keeping on.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:28–02:31: Intro of guests, genesis of the Metrograph film series
• 02:31–04:17: Wallace Shawn’s reaction to being honored
• 04:20–05:18: Lucas Cain on the political and artistic scope of Shawn’s work
• 05:30–08:25: Discussion about translating theater to film
• 08:43–10:25: “Clueless” as an entry point and its continued relevance
• 12:00–13:36: “Vanya on 42nd Street” and the significance of leading roles
• 13:42–17:14: Shawn on typecasting, the voice, and industry barriers
• 18:14–20:19: Working with Andre Gregory – Directorial philosophy
• 20:28–22:05: Contrasting themes in Shawn’s stage works about class

---

Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is marked by warmth, humor, and intellectual engagement, with Shawn’s self-effacing wit and candid reflections providing both insight and levity. Early and Cain convey deep respect and affection for Shawn, while Stewart guides the discussion with curiosity and openness. The episode offers an accessible window into Shawn’s work for both longtime fans and newcomers, emphasizing the community-building power of art and the enduring relevance of both classic and contemporary works in New York’s cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My next guest, Wallace Shawn is known for his work on stage and film, both of which you have an opportunity to see in New York right now. Sean's latest play, what We Did Before Our Moth Days, is running at Greenwich House Theater and stars my other guest, John Early. While working on Moth Days, early and the play's assistant director, Lucas Cain, who is also with us, had the idea to celebrate their playwright's film work in a series called Wallace the Master Builder. It's currently running at the Metrograph with screenings each through May 22nd. John, Lucas and Wallace, welcome to the studio.

[John Early]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Wallace Shawn]

So great.

[Lucas Cain]

Thank you so much.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

John.

[Alison Stewart]

Metrograph describes the series as the, quote, brainchild of you and Lucas. How did the. Mm.

[Wallace Shawn]

It's true.

[John Early]

It's true.

[Alison Stewart]

How did the idea for the series come about?

[John Early]

Well, you know, we've been working on Wally's play, what we did before Moth Days for an unusually long time, I mean, relative to the commercial theater world, for about two years. Oh, wow. Yeah, We've been rehears with Andre Gregory. This is actually quite abbreviated version of his typical rehearsal periods. But Lucas has assistant directed. I'm in the play. And we've just been, I don't know, we've just been so happy to be welcomed into this community of great artists. And I, I think a lot of, a lot of that community that Wall E has built, so to speak, is, is represented in these films, like, for example, Maria and Bruce, which screened the other day, which had never gotten distribution actually before. And it played to a packed house. Not to brag, but it was full of these kind of Wall E alums like Julie Haggerty and Deborah Eisenberg. And I don't know, I think we're so excited to be a part of this little world and we wanted to show, bring some attention to some of these films that have come from that world.

[Alison Stewart]

Wallace, what was your reaction to a series at the Metrograph about your work?

[Wallace Shawn]

Well, it came as a surprise. I did not have anything to do with it. I was told about it after it had already been organized, and I guess I was in shock because I don't know, but very thrilled because some of the more unknown films that I've been involved with are being shown and possibly with a more sympathetic audience. My whole life has changed from being hated to being sort of respected. And it's happened, you know, quite. I don't know if you get older sometimes. Sometimes you get treated with more respect because you were there when people were children. And the idea of kicking you out of the whole world doesn't arise because you were in the world when they were born. On the other hand, some people have a miserable old age where they're neglected. And,

[Alison Stewart]

you know, I don't think that's you right now.

[Wallace Shawn]

Tennessee Williams died quite miserably.

[Alison Stewart]

Why did you think that Wallace's work deserved a series? Lucas?

[Lucas Cain]

Yeah, I mean, I think John and I are just in such awe of Wally's words with what we did before our moth days. And it sort of, you know, we were both fans of Wally's before that, but it sort of led us both to sort of pursue more deeply Wallis's whole body of work. And I think, as Wally said, you know, a lot of us grew up listening to Wally, seeing Wally and different things. But, you know, for me, it was my din with Andre that first got me. But then as I explored more, I discovered his play, the Designated Mourner, which is this incredible play that sort of looks in a very unique to Wally sort of way at a society's slow descent into fascism. And, you know, we're screening the film version of that this coming Friday, starring Mark Nichols, directed by the.

[John Early]

It's the only film role, by the way.

[Lucas Cain]

Oh, my God. And he's so fabulous. And directed by David Hare. And I think it's a testament to Wally's skill as a playwright, but also his sort of curiosity in the world and his sort of political commitments, his sort of interest in what's happening now all over the world. And I think it just is, you know, I think younger generations are, you know, we love Wally.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, it's interesting, you know. You know, like as you said, the Marie and Bruce is from a play, the Designated Mourner is from a play. What's interesting to you about the way a Wallace Shawn play translates to screen?

[Lucas Cain]

Oh, I mean, that's such a good question. I'd be curious to hear what Wally would say to that. But I think, you know. Well, for instance, we're also featuring Vanya on 42nd street, which is directed by Louis Mal. And Louis Mal obviously directed My Dinner With Andre as well. And I think their collaboration is so Unique and so special because it's not a filmed play, it's a film. But it's able to sort of translate the directness of, you know, Wally and Andre's work on stage into a different medium. And I think something like Designated Mourner, which is, you know, very. A lot of direct to camera sort of monologues that are very typical of Wally's work, but in a way that I think if you submit yourself as an audience member, it washes over you and pulls you in. And I think it's the same with what we did before our moth days right now. You know, it's sort of a different way of paying attention, a different way of listening, a different way of being pulled into a story that's really unique to Wally and Wally's work.

[Alison Stewart]

May I call you Wally, please? Everybody's calling you Wally. Wally. What can a film script do that you can't do with a play and vice versa?

[Wallace Shawn]

Hmm. Well, this, it's. I'm not really suitable to be on a live radio show because I. My instinct would be to take a couple of days to think of the answer to that.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, good. I thought you're on a curse. I wasn't quite sure yet.

[Wallace Shawn]

It's. Yeah, I'm just not smart enough for live radio.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's keep it simple then. What do you like about writing? What do you like about writing a play? Well,

[Wallace Shawn]

a play is actually a real experience that people are having on stage. They're pretending to be actors, pretending to be characters, but actually they are living, sweating, breathing, digesting, and actually feeling things about the other actors. It's all real and people in the audience are watching something that's actually happening in front of them. Film is made up and, you know, the filmmakers use real people who are the actors, but it's not real by the time it's chopped up and packaged.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm speaking to writer and actor Wallace Shawn. He's the subject of the metrograth film series. Wallace the Master Builder was curated by my other guests, actor John early and the Lucas Kane. Okay, John, you started with Clueless last weekend. Why did you start with Clueless?

[John Early]

Well, you know, we wanted to feature some of the. I would call them gateway performances of Wallace Shawn's that have brought people into some of his other, perhaps somewhat neglected work. Clueless for me, was certainly where I first fell in love with Wally. It's a totally brilliant movie by Amy Heckerling, who actually was at one of our rehearsals, one of our very intimate rehearsals of moth days. But you Know, it's because of roles like that that I think have kind of, at least in my case, seduced me into Wally's work. And I was able to, through my obsession with him, able to find some of his political writing and. And. And I don't know. I think. I think we wanted to represent that part of his oeuvre in this. In this series, too.

[Alison Stewart]

It was interesting. You did a Q and A afterward. What surprised you about the way the audience reacted to a film made in 1995?

[John Early]

Well, I mean, it's such an intelligent, sophisticated movie. Like, it's this.

[Alison Stewart]

Like it's based on Emma, right?

[John Early]

Yeah.

[Lucas Cain]

Yeah.

[John Early]

I don't know. People were just screaming, laughing. People seemed also very kind of sniffly and moved by the tenderness in it, too. It really just. It works really well and it doesn't. It treats its audience, it's huge, huge audience, with respect. And that's also why it felt like a nice one to include. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

What do you like about your role in Clueless?

[Wallace Shawn]

Well, I mean, this is a Hollywood movie that if they were all like that, we'd have a beautiful society, I suppose, you know, and instead of gangsters running our country, we'd have very nice people running it. An example of, you know, can popular entertainment actually be compassionate, intelligent, sensitive and. Well, very, very rarely. It can be. And so it was a great, great one to begin the series. And, you know, it fits in very well with some of the more quote unquote highbrow ones like the Designated Mourner and A Master Builder, which is based on a play of Ibsen that you adapted, that I tried to translate.

[Alison Stewart]

Let me ask you About Vanya on 42nd Street, Lucas, directed by Louis Mall. You mentioned that earlier. Starring Wally and Andre Gregory, your frequent collaborator. Why did you want to put this film in there?

[Lucas Cain]

Oh, because it's just so good. I mean, I think it's after, you know, it's probably the second film I saw of Andre and Wally's A Master Builder being the next one. And I think it's just such an extraordinary sort encapsulation of the theater process. You know, it shows all the actors showing up, and it's sort of. I saw it at a very young age and sort of stoked this fantasy of what theater could be, of doing Vanya in an abandoned theater, you know, in Times Square, of all these different actors coming together and sort of doing a very simple, down to the essence sort of production that's just so, so moving. And I think, you know, the people who got to See it live, were so blessed. And I sort of fantasized, oh, my God, if only I had been there. And it's been such a dream to, you know, be here now and to be a part of what we did before our moth days. But I think Vanya, just like the play itself, stands the test of time. I think it's a beautiful exploration of what gives life meaning and have we wasted our lives? Which is a question I ask every day.

[John Early]

I also have to say, it's Wally in a leading man role. And that's kind of. This series can kind of loosely be broken down to three categories of a character actor, leading man, playwright, and, you know, Vanya on 42nd street was shocking for me when I first saw it because like so many other people, I knew Wally primarily as a kind of a character actor, a beloved character actor. And, you know, I think he's a very soulful, deep character actor, to be very clear. But it was amazing seeing him in a leading role, and we wanted to feature some of those in the series, too.

[Alison Stewart]

Why? How is a leading role different than being a character actor for you as an actor?

[Wallace Shawn]

Well, you know, nobody is born wanting to be a character actor. That phrase is. I've almost never heard anyone use it about themselves. But if you're short and your viewers, they probably can tell just from everything about my voice, they must probably know that I'm not a normal size. I'm short. And, you know, short people are. There is a definite. If you happen to be short, you happen to notice that you're not offered leading parts. Now, some people have. There are people who believe that I am a mediocre or inferior actor and that they don't want to give me a leading part because I just am not that good at it. But others would say everybody in the

[Alison Stewart]

control room's like, no.

[Wallace Shawn]

I mean, others would say, no, he is capable. He could. Yes, you are. Play a big part. But as it happened, I mean, I've lived in New York all my life. I've been an actor for 40 years. Only Andre Gregory has been willing to hire me to play a leading part in some of these, you know, classical plays. And I should say that the movie Vanya on 42nd street is a film of Andre Gregory's directing as much as anything. I mean, Louis Mal didn't actually interpret what Andre had already worked on for three years. Louis Mal did the impossible thing of making a movie of a play because it's very, very, very hard to do. Fortunately, when we'd done the play over the course of three years, we were only doing it for like 15 or 20 people, so we didn't project our voices or try to reach the back row. We were doing something like movie acting, and so it was filmable. But I don't know, I just. Think that people who. I mean, obviously I have a funny voice, not to myself, but other people think so, and they say that I have speech impediments. That's up to you to decide. You've heard me. I don't really hear them. But it's your voice. It's my voice. And you know, I'm not allowed to use vile, angry language on the air, so I won't. Thank you. But my. You know, I feel. If you don't like my voice, I feel like saying to you some of the things that we just are not going to say.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

Our engineer's got her finger on the button. She's ready for you, Ollie.

[Wallace Shawn]

No, there's no need to say those things. But yes, I'm very joyful about my present and about these films being shown. Obviously some of my bitterness about the past creeps in, but I'm not going to. Not going to threaten. I mean, Donald Trump has already threatened this station and yes, he has all the decent people who are trying to speak truthfully. So I'm not going to add to that by tossing in obscenity.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

My guest is Wally Shawn, as well as Lucas Cain and John Early. We want to talk a little bit about the show, what we did before our moth days. John, how would you describe the experience being directed by Andre Gregory?

[John Early]

Well, it's very mysterious. It's hard to describe. I mean, I would. It's sort of similar to psychoanalysis in the way that a really good analyst just kind of sits there with patience and kindness. And it's really the key ingredient for him is time. You know, that's the big directorial gesture, is just time and patience. And so we just kind of show up every day and we do the play and we don't discuss it to death. We just kind of let it slowly emerge over time. And, and, and yeah, his presence just kind of.

[Lucas Cain]

He's very.

[John Early]

He kind of chuckles as you rehearse and it kind of lulls the play out of you and the performance out of you without. Without those kind of dim choices that I would typically make in. In the hands of a more. Kind of a less sophisticated director.

[Alison Stewart]

Lucas, what have you learned by working with Andre Gregory?

[Lucas Cain]

So many things. I mean, Andre, I think, is just one of our absolute great directors. And one of the greatest of American theater. And I think that he is just so present. He's able to conjure a level of attention that feels sort of beyond anything I can do, at least for now. But I think Andre is just so gracious and present and intuitive and attentive, and it's a very, very subtle, subtle hand in directing. But he sort of exudes a sort of a love of. Of the actors and of acting and of process itself in a way that I think allows the depth, in Wally's words to sort of rise to the surface and sort of have each performance be beyond any single actor. It's sort of, yeah, as John said, mysterious. And I think it's so against the grain of how most theater is made, at least in New York today. And I think there's something to really be learned from. From Andre's patience and his sort of allowing the material to come into life and to stay alive in a way that I just find totally moving.

[Alison Stewart]

Wallace, alongside Moth Days, twice a week, you're performing your solo show, the Fever. Why do these shows make sense together?

[Wallace Shawn]

Well, the Moth Days is a very loving portrait of four imaginary members of my own bourgeois New York class, you could say. Although New York is not necessarily where it's happening, it doesn't mention New York. And I would say the Fever is rather brutal denunciation of my class as a whole. And that, in a way, represents my true feeling. I love so many individuals of the bourgeois class, and I don't hate them or blame them, But I do think that my class is the beneficiary of the very cruel system of the current world in which the United States has played a very large part in suppressing the rest of humanity in favor of us.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

I got a text here that says, I always liked Wallace Shawn. Now I love him. Keep on keeping on. My guests have been Lucas Cain, Wallace Shawn and John Early. Thank you so much for joining us.

[John Early]

Thank you so much.

[Wallace Shawn]

Thank you.

[Lucas Cain]

Thanks so much.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

And that's all of it. I'm Alison Stewart.

[Alison Stewart]

I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

I'll meet you back here tomorrow.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

WNYC Studios is supported by AT&T. It's when we share more time, more memories and More photos and at ATT. The iPhone 17 Pro is your summer essential. Its center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. Right now at, at and t, you can get iPhone 17 Pro for $0 with eligible iPhone. Trade in any condition required. Trade in of iPhone 15 or higher, excluding iPhone 16e and 17e required. Eligible plan terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.comiphone or visit an ATT store for details.

[Liberty Mutual Announcer]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Alison Stewart]

Hey, everyone.

[WNYC Producer/Host]

Check out this guy and his bird.

[Alison Stewart]

What is this, your first date?

[Liberty Mutual Announcer]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Wallace Shawn]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Liberty Mutual Announcer]

Anyways, get a quote@liberty mutual.com or with your local agent.

[Lucas Cain]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.