"War Game" Simulates a Political Coup After 2024 Election

Summary

Podcast Summary: "War Game" Simulates a Political Coup After 2024 Election

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Date: August 2, 2024

---

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the gripping and timely documentary War Game, which captures a high-stakes simulation exploring how the U.S. government might respond to a coordinated, multi-state insurrection following a contested 2024 presidential election. Guests include the filmmakers—Jesse Moss and Tony Gerber—and Janessa Goldbeck, CEO of Vet Voice Foundation and simulation co-producer. The conversation examines the simulation’s genesis, authenticity, insights about American democracy’s vulnerabilities, and the urgent cultural conversations it aims to provoke.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin and Intent of the War Game Simulation

• Catalyst: The idea was sparked in the aftermath of the January 6th, 2021 insurrection. Concerned military advisors penned a Washington Post op-ed about the dangers of military involvement in future insurrections and recommended “war gaming” potential scenarios.
• Taking Initiative: The government, wary of the partisanship surrounding the issue, suggested that Vet Voice Foundation independently conduct the exercise.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    “One of their recommendations was for the government to actually do a war game like this interagency to prep for what would happen if members of the military actually participated and turned their weapons around on folks they were there to protect.” (03:05)

• Producer Role: Goldbeck and her team gathered bipartisan experts—military leaders from the last five administrations, government veterans, and designers—to create a scenario that would "turn up the knob" and stress-test the nation’s crisis response.

The Simulation: Structure and Realism

• Immersive Setup: The exercise took place near the real Capitol, with the US government side role-played by individuals who had actually served in similar roles (e.g., Steve Bullock as the fictional president).
• Opposition Team—The Order of Columbus: Modeled after real extremist groups (e.g., Oath Keepers), but reimagined as a religious front to provide realism and insight into evolving threats.
  • Tony Gerber:

    “What you see in War Game is very much based in reality… The Order of Columbus was an organization, you know, a sort of an Oath Keepers, you might say, except that it was positioned as a religious organization. So it evaded certain attacks, tax oversight and government oversight as a religion.” (07:21)

• Insider Knowledge: Red cell (insurgents) leaders had real experience infiltrating far-right groups, adding authenticity to insurgent tactics in the simulation.

Exploring Institutional Vulnerability

• Nationwide Chaos: Unlike January 6th, the simulated insurrection spread beyond the Capitol, involving military defections, local law enforcement, and widespread civic unrest.
  • Jesse Moss:

    “What makes this war game unique is that the insurrection spreads around the country. … Members of active duty, members of the US Military defecting… local law enforcement also throwing in with this insurrection. … It's a metastasizing crisis.” (09:37)

• Bipartisanship & Empathy: Despite political divides, participants shared a common goal: protect democracy. Surprising alliances and authentic emotional engagement were highlights.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    “One of the most surprising things for me is some of the friendships and relationships that I’ve built with folks who I absolutely disagree with on about 99.9% of things, but who I think are extraordinarily courageous...” (13:42)

The Psychology and Real-life Parallels

• Erosion of Trust: The film explores how Americans' loss of faith in democracy, fueled by disinformation, can be exploited.
  • Chris Goldsmith (in-simulation, as opposition leader):

    “Our founding Fathers predicted that should our republic fail, it would be from a threat within. What that means is Americans lose faith in our… election system. And that is happening today in a way that is completely unprecedented for modern times.” (10:50)

• Personal Stakes: Goldbeck shared her own family's struggle with the nation’s widening ideological divide, highlighting the film's grounding in real hope and empathy.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    “I talk a lot about… one of my parents has fully gone down the QAnon rabbit hole… there are a lot of families out there who are dealing with almost two sets of realities in terms of the news they're consuming…” (12:37)

Ethical Quandaries and Decision-making Under Duress

• Realism of Deliberations: Government side confronted hard choices, e.g., whether to bug the opposition's phone—balancing legal, political, and ethical ramifications.
  • Clip (Government team debate):

    “No one has to know whether we're monitoring this phone or not.” “But someone will at some point… in a deeply divided country, if that ever came out…” (14:31)

• Pressure Cooker Atmosphere: Even seasoned real-world leaders were swept up in the emotional intensity of "the worst possible day."
  • Tony Gerber:

    “War game represents a what-if scenario that every day becomes more real… with every twist and turn of this crazy political season, you know, the film just seems to change.” (15:18)

  • Jesse Moss:

    “We are right there at the table with [the president] watching and trying to manage this and getting conflicting advice from his advisors… They leaned into their roles with a degree that was utterly captivating.” (15:57)

Crafting the Documentary: Editing and Storytelling

• Condensation: Six hours of simulation boiled down to 90-minute documentary, emphasizing story and empathy over pure procedural detail.
  • Tony Gerber:

    “We knew that the film had to lead with empathy. … It was almost a year-long process... Once we discovered that as an element that we could leave the tension… and do these little sidebars with these characters, it made the experience that much richer.” (17:08)

Reflections and Outcomes

• False Sense of Security: The film warns of complacency, asking viewers to imagine—and prepare for—dire scenarios.
  • Jesse Moss:

    “We do live with a false sense of security. … It's sort of like looking into the abyss. … But I think it leaves us hopeful knowing that it's important for all of us to contemplate the worst case scenario so that we're prepared for it when it comes.” (18:24)

• Action Steps After the Game:
  • Vet Voice Foundation produced a report for the administration and Congress, but also recognized the need to bring the conversation directly to the public via film.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    "If you love something, you work to make it stronger. And that is what we're hoping that this film helps inspire." (21:06)

• Next Steps:
  • New simulations are planned at the state/local level (e.g., Arizona), focusing on the vulnerabilities outside the federal spotlight and preparing leaders for even more severe scenarios.
    (21:09)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the film’s unique power:
  Tony Gerber (06:26)
  “I think the thing that was most surprising for me is just how vulnerable our democracy is... War Game is a provocation for a conversation we should have had a long time ago, but it’s really not too late.”

• On personal stakes and family:
  Janessa Goldbeck (12:37)
  “One of my parents has fully gone down the QAnon rabbit hole… I think there are a lot of families out there who are dealing with almost two sets of realities..."

• On the necessity of bipartisan engagement:
  Janessa Goldbeck (13:42)
  “Some of the friendships and relationships that I’ve built with folks who I absolutely disagree with on about 99.9% of things, but who I think are extraordinarily courageous..."

• On compressing six hours to 90 minutes:
  Tony Gerber (17:08)
  “Michelangelo always said that sculpting is about taking a chunk of marble and removing what's not the thing, so you're left with the thing..."

• On the reality-check of the simulation:
  Jesse Moss (18:24)
  "We do live with a false sense of security... confronting events that really defy imagination. I love that the creative task here was to imagine this future event."

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment | |----------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:05 | Janessa Goldbeck explains the simulation’s purpose | | 07:10 | Tony Gerber describes the Order of Columbus (the opposition) | | 09:07 | Chris Goldsmith on his role as insurrectionist leader | | 10:50 | Chris Goldsmith on erosion of trust and history | | 12:37 | Goldbeck shares personal family impact of polarization | | 14:31 | Clip: Government team debates bugging the opposition’s phone | | 15:18 | Gerber: On how the simulation’s relevance grows by the month | | 17:08 | Gerber: Editing and creative storytelling in the documentary | | 18:24 | Moss: America’s “false sense of security” | | 21:06 | Goldbeck: What’s next and learning from the simulation | | 21:09 | Goldbeck: Planning new state-level simulations |

---

Tone and Language

The conversation is urgent, clear-eyed, and respectful—blending sobering warnings about democratic fragility with a persistent sense of hope and civic responsibility.

---

Takeaways

War Game is not just a documentary or a “what if,” but a call to awareness and preparedness in a polarized, vulnerable democracy. The episode highlights both the challenges and possibilities when concerned citizens, experts, and leaders step beyond partisanship to confront the nation’s gravest threats—real or simulated.

---

Transcript

[Jesse Moss]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Kusha Navadar]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. If you were in charge of the US Government and you had six hours to respond to an attempted insurrection, what would you you do? This is a question that drove a secret national security exercise that took place on January 6, 2020, three steps from the US Capitol. To be clear, this was a simulated exercise that took place two years after the very real attack on that same capital. Leaders from the military, the CIA, the FBI, former senators and a former governor participated in this simulation. They had 66 hours to navigate a hypothetical crisis in which extremists try to overtake the Capitol to contest the results of an election. The six hour simulation is gripping, alarming and it is captured in the documentary War Game. Here's a clip from the trailer. In this trailer you're going to hear a fake hypothetical candidate from the simulation urging his candidates to do something. Let's listen. My fellow Americans, it is undeniable that.

[Tony Gerber]

This past election was stolen to all.

[Kusha Navadar]

Those members of the armed forces join.

[Tony Gerber]

With us to defend our liberty and land.

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Seated around this room is an incredible diversity of professional experience spanning the last five presidential administrations. Most of you have sworn under oath to defend the Constitution. What happens when those in uniform break that oath?

[Kusha Navadar]

January 6th demonstrated a possible false sense of security.

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Insurrection could involve members of the active duty military turning their weapons around on the folks that they are there to protect. One of the recommendations was to War Game what that might look like.

[Tony Gerber]

I am President Hotham, Chief Executive of.

[Chris Goldsmith]

The United States of America.

[Kusha Navadar]

You have six hours to avert a civil war and ensure the peaceful transfer of power. Mr. President, we are going to be starting the game in three.

[Chris Goldsmith]

We are here to stress test our national security system. One, I want them to be prepared for the worst case scenarios.

[Kusha Navadar]

War Game is being screened at the film forum on August 2nd and here to talk to us about the film are the directors, Jesse Moss. Hi, Jesse.

[Jesse Moss]

Hi.

[Kusha Navadar]

And we also have Tony Gerber. Hi Tony.

[Tony Gerber]

Pleased to be here.

[Kusha Navadar]

And we also have Janessa Goldbeck who is CEO of Vet Voice, the Vet Voice foundation and one of the game's producers. Welcome Janessa.

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Thanks for having us.

[Kusha Navadar]

It's such a pleasure to get to talk to you about this documentary, especially to have you in the room right here as many people were in the room, the fake situation room, trying to navigate the hypothetical insurrection. And Janessa, where did the idea for the simulation come from? What does a game producer do?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Yeah, well, after the January 6th insurrection. Several of the general officers in our network who are advisors to Vet Voice foundation penned an op ed in the Washington Post that said they were increasingly concerned that this could happen again, specifically that members of the armed forces and veterans were being disproportionately targeted for recruitment into extremist groups. And one of their recommendations was for the government to actually do a war game like this interagency to prep for what would happen if members of the military actually participated and turned their weapons around on folks they were there to protect. So we spoke to the administration and they said, look, we think that's a great idea, but it's such a politicized partisan issue at this point. Why don't you guys take the mantle and run with it? So as a civil service organization, we decided to do just that and bring together across the aisle experts in the military and government who could participate in this and help us tease out what are some of the vulnerabilities in our system today.

[Kusha Navadar]

So I hear it was bipartisan. That kind of missed the media a little bit, maybe a little bit under the rug kind of thing. What does a game producer do? What did you do to make this idea come to fruition once the administration said run with it?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Well, my role as the CEO of the organization was really to bring together the right team of people to make this thing come to life. And so that meant bringing on consultants and designers who could create a scenario that was realistic, but also took the. Took the knob and turned it up on all things that have happened before, but sort of happening all at once on kind of the worst possible day, and then to bring together the players so everyone who was cast in a role as someone who either held that role in the past or held a very proximate role. And so that's why you hear there's folks from the last five administrations, from all political persuasions, some military generals who are completely nonpartisan, who participated because they feel so strongly that this is such an issue, bringing those people together and then making sure that. That we had an incredible team running on day of. And we were so fortunate to be able to link up with Jesse and Tony to take this exercise from just being a closed door, behind the scenes exercise into something that the American public and the world has an eye on.

[Kusha Navadar]

That is an interesting point because that's what I was wondering while I was watching this. Jesse, it's a secret simulation. Why was it secret? How did you find out about it?

[Jesse Moss]

We have some mutual acquaintances. I read the op ed in The Washington Post. And it struck me, and I'm worried about our political future, and I'm trying to process what we all lived through on January 6, 2021. And this struck me as a great way to do both things at once. I didn't expect that we would get access, but Janessa and her organization are fearless. They were prepared to give us the editorial freedom that we need as journalists and storytellers. And also, it struck me as an extraordinary opportunity to be in this White House situation room, which is the space that they're creating with a fictional president. I've just never been in that space before, and I wanted to see what would that feel. And it's a vantage point that most of us don't have. And I think we're a little bit tired of thinking about what happened in the past and looking for new ways to think about what might happen in the future. So it was really an exciting space to try to get access to. And fortunately, Janessa said yes.

[Kusha Navadar]

Tony, did you have a sense of what you wanted to capture before you went in there? Did something surprise you as you were watching the simulation play out?

[Tony Gerber]

I think the thing that was most surprising for me is just how vulnerable our democracy is, you know, And I think we're at a time in our society in which we need to take stock of those vulnerabilities. Right. And understand what they are and circle the wagons, quite frankly. You know, war game is a provocation for a conversation we should have had a long time ago, but it's really not too late.

[Kusha Navadar]

That comes through in the documentary, especially while I was watching it in the Order of Columbus side of things. Can you, Tony, talk a little bit about. Because we've talked about what the US Government leaders are doing, there's this whole other half of the simulation going. That is these folks that are the extremists. Right. Who are the Order of Columbus in the simulation?

[Tony Gerber]

Yeah. Typically, a war game has a blue force and a red force. Right. Opposition force. The opposition force play the part of the insurrectionists, who in our case were down the hall in the hotel, had their own cell that was sort of designed after a cop Bar in D.C. and in there, hurling all sorts of obstacles and virtual Molotov cocktails at President Hotham and his administration to do everything in their power to undermine the peaceful transfer of power. So the Order of Columbus was a mishmash of different far right groups, but the leaders of the Red Cell are authorities on the far right and have themselves infiltrated the far right and spent many Waking hours, living and walking, those experiences. So what you see in War Game is very much based in reality. So the Order of Columbus was an organization, you know, a sort of an Oath Keepers, you might say, except that it was positioned as a religious organization. So it evaded certain attacks, tax oversight and government oversight as a religion. And it's led by a charismatic character named General Roger Sims, who sort of inspired, you might say, by Mike Flynn, a retired general himself. And this patriarch character who you heard in that little teaser that you played, is calling on active duty troops to support the losing candidate in this recent election.

[Kusha Navadar]

And in the simulation itself, at least in the documentary, there is a practical, not leader, but individual that we hear a lot from who is playing in the Order of Columbus talking about Chris Goldsmith, who in real life is a former member of the Milit. Here's a clip of Chris from the movie talking about his job in the simulation.

[Chris Goldsmith]

We are here to play the role of the unfaithful, of those who are willing to do violence to achieve political ends. I am thinking like an insurgent. I am doing what I expect enemies of democracy to be doing as they plan the next assault.

[Kusha Navadar]

Jesse, what are Chris and his teammates actually doing during the simulation to push their side's agenda?

[Jesse Moss]

They're sowing chaos first at the U.S. capitol. But what makes this war game unique is that the insurrection spreads around the country. It's something we didn't see in 2021. And we have members of active duty, members of the US Military defecting, members of the National Guard throwing in with this insurrection force, local law enforcement also throwing in with this insurrection. This is the cris. Our president and his advisors have to confront a metastasizing crisis in state capitals, in different states, not just the US Capitol, where they're attempting to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power. And you know, what made this exercise appealing to me as a subject is so many people involved have military experience. They're looking at this institution out of love and respect, like Janessa, who was a Marine Corps veteran, Chris Goldsmith, an Army veteran. And that was, I think, really validating for me that this a criticism from within, not from without.

[Kusha Navadar]

At certain points, the documentary expands beyond this simulation itself and talks about the psychology behind insurrection. Here's a clip that really struck me while I was watching. It's Chris Goldsmith again, the leader of the Order of Columbus team. Let's listen.

[Chris Goldsmith]

Our founding Fathers predicted that should our republic fail, it would be from a threat within. What that means is Americans lose faith in our Republicans lose faith in our election system. And that is happening today in a way that is completely unprecedented for modern.

[Kusha Navadar]

Times, completely unprecedented from modern times. Janessa, when you're listening to Chris talk to that, what goes through your mind?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

I think one of the values that I share with many of the other veterans who participated in this project was a sense that. That the idea of democracy was being denigrated from many places in our society, and that Americans, in some cases, quite rightfully, are asking, does the system work for me? And if not, should it be overthrown? We're seeing this bent of authoritarianism in our politics today that is new for someone at my age. I'm in my late 30s, and of course, we've seen it in the past, but never from the top of the ticket. And so I think that. But we really feel so strongly, those of us who have put on a uniform and served this country and swore an oath to defend the Constitution, that it is our obligation to raise this conversation in American society to say we need to take a hard look at what people are proposing, the authorities that they are attempting to impose on you, the liberties they are attempting to strip from you. And this conversation can't just happen with people in Washington. It needs to be happening at kitchen tables and churches and VFWs across the country. And that's one of the things I hope that this film can help inspire.

[Kusha Navadar]

How about for you? How has that sense of institutions being eroded resonated with your own experience with those conversations happening at the kitchen table?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Yeah, well, you'll see in the film I talk a lot about in my own family. One of my parents has fully gone down the QAnon rabbit hole. And that has certainly been a challenge for me and other members of my family to kind of try to square, because this is somebody who I love and is a very rational, smart person. So, you know, I think there are a lot of families out there who are dealing with almost two sets of realities in terms of the news they're consuming and the information or disinformation they might be seeing. And I think it's very important that we not just stay in our own silos, but that we interact with people who have different experiences and different belief sets and do so in a way that's conversational and emotive and full of empathy. And I do think that's one thing. You know, this film has been called the scariest movie of the year, but it is also a film that's full of hope and full of love. And I think everyone who participated in the Project brought that love for their country, for democracy, to the table.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, that idea of it being bipartisan, I think, was really important. While I was watching it. What was it like for you seeing folks from either both sides of the aisle or like expressly no side of the aisle, trying to interact in real time?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

It's interesting. I mean, everybody who came to this exercise and participated in this project shared the value of wanting to protect and promote democracy and conversation across the aisle. One of the most surprising things for me is some of the friendships and relationships that I've built with folks who. Who I absolutely disagree with on about 99.9% of things, but who I think are extraordinarily courageous in what they've chosen to do, how they've chosen to speak out, how they've chosen to use their platform to ensure that this country and all that it stands for continues for another 300 years.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, it was interesting to watch the actual decisions being made in real time. At one point, we see the players on the side of the US government debating whether or not to bug the phone of their opposing leader who lost the election. Let's listen to a quick clip of them.

[Tony Gerber]

No one has to know whether we're monitoring this phone or not.

[Kusha Navadar]

No one has to know.

[Tony Gerber]

But someone will at some point. I mean, that monitoring everyone else, I understand 6/10 of a percent in a deeply divided country, if that ever came out.

[Kusha Navadar]

Your call. So listeners, just to be clear, this is where the folks in the hypothetical US government are talking about whether bugging the phone of the opposition was worth the political risk to gain information. And Tony, one thing that quickly becomes a apparent in this documentary that I think will resonate with listeners is how real things feel, how quickly they feel. When you were in the room, when you were watching these folks, what were the deliberations like on the side of the government? How quickly did it feel like these things were becoming real?

[Tony Gerber]

Well, I'll say this war game represents a what if scenario that every day becomes more real. Right. When we shot this film in January 2023, you know, the great protector of black jobs was. Was hardly on the political scene. He had disappeared by and large, you know, but with every twist and turn of this crazy political season, you know, the film just seems to. To change. Every time you see it, it feels like a different film, which is extraordinary. And, you know.

[Jesse Moss]

I'll just add that I think Tony and I, when we watched the action begin, frankly, as filmmakers, we weren't sure it would work, that these role players who are Real world civil servants could play characters. They're characters based on their real world experience. But we didn't know that they would sort of lean into their roles and their characters and the story, but immediately was captivating. And the President, played by Steve Bullock, a former governor, and his advisor Heidi Heitkamp, a US Senator. They are wrestling with the thorniest of problems, whether to invoke the Insurrection act and deploy active duty military on U.S. soil. You realize the president has to play four dimensional chess. He's got legal issues, he's got political issues, he's got an insurrection fomenting in his country. And we are right there at the table with him watching and trying to manage this and getting conflicting advice from his advisors. You heard General Wes Clark speaking about this bugging. And so I think for us, we're kind of voyeurs to this remarkable space. And they leaned into their roles with a degree that was utterly captivating. And fortunately, I think for our audience, we got to take the six hour exercise and condense it down to 90 minutes.

[Kusha Navadar]

How did you condense it down to 90 minutes? I mean, as filmmakers, Tony, maybe we can start with you. What was your strategy there?

[Tony Gerber]

That was. I mean, you know, Michelangelo always said that sculpting is about taking a chunk of marble and removing what's not the thing. So you're left with the thing. I mean, it was almost a year long process. We worked with a great editor named Jeff Gilbert, who Jesse has worked with on several films. It was really a process of trial and error. We knew that the film had to lead with empathy. We knew that our audience had to care about these characters because if they didn't care, it's just sort of an abstract intellectual exercise. And really it was these game designers, including Janessa and Ben Rad, whose backstories gave tremendous insight into why they were doing this, what motivated them. You know, they all had skin in the game. And once we discovered that as an element that we could leave the tension of this countdown from Six Hours to Save Democracy and do these little sidebars with these characters, it made the experience that much richer. And then I think the film really just sort of came together.

[Kusha Navadar]

You know, we hear many people in the film talk about this false sense of security. And I'm using quotes there. Can you speak, Jesse, to that a little bit how you wanted to handle that? So people had a sense of it in the documentary?

[Jesse Moss]

That's right. I think we do live with a false sense of security. As someone who lived through 911 in Lower Manhattan experienced January 6th. We've confronted events that really defy imagination. And I love that the creative task here was to imagine this future event. And that's hard to do. It's sort of like looking into the abyss. And you have to do it with courage and conviction. And I think the degree of verisimilitude in this exercise made it really attractive. The realism of the situation room that was created, the fact that there's a White House briefing room. We talked about the red set, the opposition force. I mean, there's a news network that exists within the simulation that's giving the people in the Sit room, the President, real time updates about what's happening in the world. Plus he's got to deal with propaganda that's coming at him from social media that's being disseminated by this red cell opposition force. So all of it made for a completely immersive environment, I think, and we're sort of able to sort of to exist inside of it. And it's why I think we can really buy into the drama and get caught up. But I think it's important to, as Janessa noted, to know that it's scary, but I think it leaves us hopeful knowing that it's important for all of us to contemplate the worst case scenario so that we're prepared for it when it comes.

[Kusha Navadar]

Yeah, I'm looking at the clock. I want to be sure that we touch on one more thing, which is what happens after this simulation. Right? Because for you, Janaza, I'm sure the simulation had a bunch of surprises, but for you, it was all about what you could learn from. Right? So the simulation ends. I'm not going to ruin what happens, but I want to know for you what happened next. What are you doing with that experience right now?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Well, from the, from the get go, the original idea was to produce a report and share it with the administration agencies and Congress, which we did. I think anyone who's worked as a, in an NGO or in a civil service organization knows that sometimes when you make recommendations to the government, there's a thank you very much like, we'll take a look. Which was why it was so important for us to have this, this, this film to allow people to see what some of these vulnerabilities are and to ask questions of their government and their leaders. What are we doing about this? You know, the, the efforts to contain and, and really examine extremism in the military have unfortunately been completely waylaid by partisanship. There's a committee in Congress to look at it. And it's been pretty, pretty inactive because it's, folks say that it's, it's disrespectful to the troops to question whether or not they're loyal to the Constitution. We know that extremism in the military is a problem. We know that extremism in our society is a problem. And the military is a reflection of our society. So we need our leaders to own that if you love something, you work to make it stronger. And that is what we're hoping that this film helps inspire.

[Kusha Navadar]

Any ideas for another simulation? Is that on the radar?

[Janessa Goldbeck]

We're actually in the works right now. One of the biggest lessons we took away from this simulation was there are a lot of smart people across the, the, across the spectrum working on what happens at the federal level if we take an even more severe turn towards authoritarianism. But for state leaders and local leaders, they often don't have the same resources. And when you think about something like the Insurrection act or you look at some of the proposals within Project 2025, there are things that local leaders will own. And so we are exercising. We're about to kick something off in Arizona in a couple weeks. We'll be looking to do that in states across the country.

[Kusha Navadar]

Wow. I can't wait to hear more about it. War Game is being screened at the film forum on August 2nd. We've been talking to the directors Jesse Moss and Tony Gerber, as well as Janessa Goldbeck, CEO of Vet Voice foundation and one of the Game's producers. Thank you all so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

[Tony Gerber]

Pleasure to be here.

[Jesse Moss]

Thank you.

[Janessa Goldbeck]

Thank you. Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. In addition to this award winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and accessible to all. To get in touch and find out more, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.