Podcast Summary: "War Game" Simulates a Political Coup After 2024 Election

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Date: August 2, 2024

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the gripping and timely documentary War Game, which captures a high-stakes simulation exploring how the U.S. government might respond to a coordinated, multi-state insurrection following a contested 2024 presidential election. Guests include the filmmakers—Jesse Moss and Tony Gerber—and Janessa Goldbeck, CEO of Vet Voice Foundation and simulation co-producer. The conversation examines the simulation’s genesis, authenticity, insights about American democracy’s vulnerabilities, and the urgent cultural conversations it aims to provoke.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin and Intent of the War Game Simulation

• Catalyst: The idea was sparked in the aftermath of the January 6th, 2021 insurrection. Concerned military advisors penned a Washington Post op-ed about the dangers of military involvement in future insurrections and recommended “war gaming” potential scenarios.
• Taking Initiative: The government, wary of the partisanship surrounding the issue, suggested that Vet Voice Foundation independently conduct the exercise.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    “One of their recommendations was for the government to actually do a war game like this interagency to prep for what would happen if members of the military actually participated and turned their weapons around on folks they were there to protect.” (03:05)

• Producer Role: Goldbeck and her team gathered bipartisan experts—military leaders from the last five administrations, government veterans, and designers—to create a scenario that would "turn up the knob" and stress-test the nation’s crisis response.

The Simulation: Structure and Realism

• Immersive Setup: The exercise took place near the real Capitol, with the US government side role-played by individuals who had actually served in similar roles (e.g., Steve Bullock as the fictional president).
• Opposition Team—The Order of Columbus: Modeled after real extremist groups (e.g., Oath Keepers), but reimagined as a religious front to provide realism and insight into evolving threats.
  • Tony Gerber:

    “What you see in War Game is very much based in reality… The Order of Columbus was an organization, you know, a sort of an Oath Keepers, you might say, except that it was positioned as a religious organization. So it evaded certain attacks, tax oversight and government oversight as a religion.” (07:21)

• Insider Knowledge: Red cell (insurgents) leaders had real experience infiltrating far-right groups, adding authenticity to insurgent tactics in the simulation.

Exploring Institutional Vulnerability

• Nationwide Chaos: Unlike January 6th, the simulated insurrection spread beyond the Capitol, involving military defections, local law enforcement, and widespread civic unrest.
  • Jesse Moss:

    “What makes this war game unique is that the insurrection spreads around the country. … Members of active duty, members of the US Military defecting… local law enforcement also throwing in with this insurrection. … It's a metastasizing crisis.” (09:37)

• Bipartisanship & Empathy: Despite political divides, participants shared a common goal: protect democracy. Surprising alliances and authentic emotional engagement were highlights.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    “One of the most surprising things for me is some of the friendships and relationships that I’ve built with folks who I absolutely disagree with on about 99.9% of things, but who I think are extraordinarily courageous...” (13:42)

The Psychology and Real-life Parallels

• Erosion of Trust: The film explores how Americans' loss of faith in democracy, fueled by disinformation, can be exploited.
  • Chris Goldsmith (in-simulation, as opposition leader):

    “Our founding Fathers predicted that should our republic fail, it would be from a threat within. What that means is Americans lose faith in our… election system. And that is happening today in a way that is completely unprecedented for modern times.” (10:50)

• Personal Stakes: Goldbeck shared her own family's struggle with the nation’s widening ideological divide, highlighting the film's grounding in real hope and empathy.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    “I talk a lot about… one of my parents has fully gone down the QAnon rabbit hole… there are a lot of families out there who are dealing with almost two sets of realities in terms of the news they're consuming…” (12:37)

Ethical Quandaries and Decision-making Under Duress

• Realism of Deliberations: Government side confronted hard choices, e.g., whether to bug the opposition's phone—balancing legal, political, and ethical ramifications.
  • Clip (Government team debate):

    “No one has to know whether we're monitoring this phone or not.” “But someone will at some point… in a deeply divided country, if that ever came out…” (14:31)

• Pressure Cooker Atmosphere: Even seasoned real-world leaders were swept up in the emotional intensity of "the worst possible day."
  • Tony Gerber:

    “War game represents a what-if scenario that every day becomes more real… with every twist and turn of this crazy political season, you know, the film just seems to change.” (15:18)

  • Jesse Moss:

    “We are right there at the table with [the president] watching and trying to manage this and getting conflicting advice from his advisors… They leaned into their roles with a degree that was utterly captivating.” (15:57)

Crafting the Documentary: Editing and Storytelling

• Condensation: Six hours of simulation boiled down to 90-minute documentary, emphasizing story and empathy over pure procedural detail.
  • Tony Gerber:

    “We knew that the film had to lead with empathy. … It was almost a year-long process... Once we discovered that as an element that we could leave the tension… and do these little sidebars with these characters, it made the experience that much richer.” (17:08)

Reflections and Outcomes

• False Sense of Security: The film warns of complacency, asking viewers to imagine—and prepare for—dire scenarios.
  • Jesse Moss:

    “We do live with a false sense of security. … It's sort of like looking into the abyss. … But I think it leaves us hopeful knowing that it's important for all of us to contemplate the worst case scenario so that we're prepared for it when it comes.” (18:24)

• Action Steps After the Game:
  • Vet Voice Foundation produced a report for the administration and Congress, but also recognized the need to bring the conversation directly to the public via film.
  • Janessa Goldbeck:

    "If you love something, you work to make it stronger. And that is what we're hoping that this film helps inspire." (21:06)

• Next Steps:
  • New simulations are planned at the state/local level (e.g., Arizona), focusing on the vulnerabilities outside the federal spotlight and preparing leaders for even more severe scenarios.
    (21:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the film’s unique power:
  Tony Gerber (06:26)
  “I think the thing that was most surprising for me is just how vulnerable our democracy is... War Game is a provocation for a conversation we should have had a long time ago, but it’s really not too late.”

• On personal stakes and family:
  Janessa Goldbeck (12:37)
  “One of my parents has fully gone down the QAnon rabbit hole… I think there are a lot of families out there who are dealing with almost two sets of realities..."

• On the necessity of bipartisan engagement:
  Janessa Goldbeck (13:42)
  “Some of the friendships and relationships that I’ve built with folks who I absolutely disagree with on about 99.9% of things, but who I think are extraordinarily courageous..."

• On compressing six hours to 90 minutes:
  Tony Gerber (17:08)
  “Michelangelo always said that sculpting is about taking a chunk of marble and removing what's not the thing, so you're left with the thing..."

• On the reality-check of the simulation:
  Jesse Moss (18:24)
  "We do live with a false sense of security... confronting events that really defy imagination. I love that the creative task here was to imagine this future event."

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment | |----------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:05 | Janessa Goldbeck explains the simulation’s purpose | | 07:10 | Tony Gerber describes the Order of Columbus (the opposition) | | 09:07 | Chris Goldsmith on his role as insurrectionist leader | | 10:50 | Chris Goldsmith on erosion of trust and history | | 12:37 | Goldbeck shares personal family impact of polarization | | 14:31 | Clip: Government team debates bugging the opposition’s phone | | 15:18 | Gerber: On how the simulation’s relevance grows by the month | | 17:08 | Gerber: Editing and creative storytelling in the documentary | | 18:24 | Moss: America’s “false sense of security” | | 21:06 | Goldbeck: What’s next and learning from the simulation | | 21:09 | Goldbeck: Planning new state-level simulations |

Tone and Language

The conversation is urgent, clear-eyed, and respectful—blending sobering warnings about democratic fragility with a persistent sense of hope and civic responsibility.

Takeaways

War Game is not just a documentary or a “what if,” but a call to awareness and preparedness in a polarized, vulnerable democracy. The episode highlights both the challenges and possibilities when concerned citizens, experts, and leaders step beyond partisanship to confront the nation’s gravest threats—real or simulated.