← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
What 'Sinners' Means For Black Cinema
00:24:57
Cultural scholar, professor and filmmaker Dr. Stephane Dunn talks about the new film "Sinners."
Loading summary
Transcript47 lines
- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance
All of it is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [00:27]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Coming up on the show tomorrow, we here at all of it will be starting our workday extra early so that we can monitor the Tony Award nominations. That's how we'll kick off the show on Thursday, along with vulture critic Jackson McHenry. How many of the 42 Tony eligible productions have you seen? Start getting your best of lists together and we'll compare notes and we'll talk about two extremely fraught topics, how to navigate conflict with a friend and how to decipher a wedding dress code. Yep, that's the way we roll here at all of it. It's all coming up tomorrow. Let's get this hour though, started with Sinners. Sinners may be the most celebrated film of 2025 so far in every sense. The existential bluesy vampire blockbuster is currently number one at the box office. It's already grossed more than $150 million and it shows no signs of stopping on its current course. It could become grossing original horror movie since Jordan Peele's Us all that and its original story from director Ryan Coogler, the acclaimed director behind the Black Panther films Creed and Fruitvale Station. The business around the film has also caused a stir. Coogler secured a number of conditions relating to his control over the film with his studio, Warner Brothers. He got final cut. He also will get ownership of the film after 25 years. One Hollywood executive has said that Coogler's deal could threaten Hollywood system itself. Morehouse calls Professor Stephanie Stephanie Dunn is skeptical about that last part, but in a recent article for MSNBC, she does celebrate its uniqueness. Dr. Dunn is a cultural scholar, professor and filmmaker and she joins me now to take your sinners calls. Hi Dr. Dunn, nice to meet you.
- [02:17]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Hello. How are you today?
- [02:19]
Alison Stewart
I am doing well. May I call you Stephanie?
- [02:21]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
You may. Please, please do.
- [02:24]
Alison Stewart
Listeners, have you seen Sinners? Tell us your takeaways. What are your thoughts or questions do you have about its music, its performances, its story, even the of the film? 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. You can call in, you can join us on air or you can text to us at that number as well. 212-433-9692. Your article is about the business of the movie since not everybody's seen it. So that's a good place to start, actually. In its deal with Warner Brothers, Coogler secured first dollar gross points, final cut and ownership of the film in 25 years. Can you break down what those terms mean?
- [03:05]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
So I think one of the things they mean, and I think that's what has everybody so excited and debating whether this is sort of earth shattering and groundbreaking and pioneering and all of that, is the ownership piece, right? That those rights come back to Coogler and that means his heirs in 25 years. Of course, there's generous other pieces of this that have to do with how much money you get on the back end. Right. Which is always important in a deal when you talk about global and domestic sales. And so in other words, sharing in the current piece of the pie and later.
- [03:44]
Unknown Host
So you're talking a little bit about generational wealth.
- [03:46]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
I am talking a lot about it. I'm talking about generational wealth for his family, but also that awareness about African American culture and the lack of ownership historically over African American cultural productions such as music, which, you know, is very important in the film.
- [04:06]
Unknown Host
Why do some people see Coogler's deal as a possible threat? Threat's a little too. Yeah, well, maybe some people consider it a threat. Why would somebody consider it a threat?
- [04:16]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Because it's about shared power in an industry where the studio system has ruled supreme for like 100 years. So this is usually sort of an unfair sort of situation where everyone knows that the folks really in control who are making the most money, right, who are calling the shots at the top, right, are the studio executives. Some of these studios, like the one that Coogler made his deal with, have been around since the beginning. One of the original mega studios. So they don't like to really yield power. Ownership. Because ownership is power, be it land or movie rights.
- [04:58]
Unknown Host
You note in your piece that deals like Cooglers might not appeal to everyone. Why not?
- [05:04]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Well, I do, because there are people, believe it or not, I think sometimes we think of independent filmmakers as independent, meaning they don't have studio backing. They're not inside. Right. The studio system, they haven't broken in yet. But you know, that also has been a conscious choice. So I have known and do know some African American filmmakers, for example, who have made deals on their own in terms of getting their own money, raising the money and being able to retain rights over the material that they've written and that they have produced and not having to share a generous cut of it with a studio or, you know, and I include the streaming platforms, which are our basically digital studios these days. Right. So that means that they can own it without negotiating for something they've already created. So I think we could see why that might be very attractive if they can get enough of the access to distribution and enough of the sort of production funds to actually get the film made.
- [06:08]
Unknown Host
Let's take a couple calls. Sid is calling in on line one from New Brunswick, New Jersey. Hey, Stid, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.
- [06:17]
Sid
Oh, hi there. First off, I want to say it's great that you guys are talking about Sinners. I thought it was an awesome original movie. And it's great to see a movie that isn't, you know, based on a comic book or a video game. For once it's something that's completely original. But I wanted to call in and talk about how Sinners kind of showed me or like, reminded me of the importance of watching things in theaters because I watch it. So I live in New Brunswick because I go to Rutgers University and I watched at the Rutgers Cinema, which is like a small theater we have where we have like $5 tickets for students. It was a good deal. But, like, the speakers in my theater, like, couldn't handle a lot of the music. I could hear, like, feedback and, like, the subwoofers are struggling with it. And I thought it just showed me, like, the importance of watching movies in the theater and, like, on the biggest screen possible because I couldn't imagine watching this movie, like, on a laptop, you know, Like, I feel like it would just be a diminished experience. So now I'm like, thinking. I mean, I'm thinking about taking the train up to New York and watching it in 70 millimeter at Lincoln Square or something. So I think it just showed me the importance of the theater experience and also, like, just, you know, trying to watch movies in, like, the ideal environment. This movie you once shot for imax, and as great as it was just watching it as it was at the theater, I feel like it would be even better in imax. So, yeah, that's kind of my main takeaway.
- [07:34]
Unknown Host
Sid, thanks for calling. It was a big deal to get people back in the theaters to see this film.
- [07:42]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Absolutely agree. I love that call. I have said this personally in conversation, and I think we talked about it sort of, you know, off air, that this. That Sinners reminds us that we love to go see Movies in the theater for a reason. Particularly now when you have a film that you really need to see, an IMAX to get the full effect of the way it's shot. The production design by the great Hannah Beach. I shared this little experience that sometimes we get screeners when we're going to do something in relation to a film. We may talk to talent. When I was preparing to speak to the magnificent Oscar winning production designer Hannah Beechler, who has been on all of Ryan Coogler's projects, they wanted us to see it in the theater and I was going, oh, it'd be so much easier if we get the center. Oh, I'm so glad that we went to the theater at whatever it was 10am in the morning and we saw it in IMAX like we were supposed to be and it was absolutely stunning. And we could really appreciate not just the story itself, but you have to appreciate the full visual spectacle of centers.
- [08:52]
Alison Stewart
Let's talk to Chris from the Upper west side. Hey Chris, thanks for calling all of it.
- [08:57]
Chris
What a trip. This was a trip. I saw it at the IMAX down at Lincoln center there and it works in so many ways. Visually it just blows you away right from the start. The vistas, the screen as a musician, the blues pumping out at this incredible volume, beautiful sound system. And then as a movie fan, it's just like you can just see this guy's just in total love with the movies and it's crazy. You have a Spike Lee type dance number that's just totally, totally over the top. And then the gangster movie and the vampire movie and just you have all this love of movies. And his own vision, of course, in the, the Jordan Peele type of crazy horror film. It's just I'm bubbling because I'm still tripping on it and telling my kids about it and we're going to go see see it again. My son was disappointed that I went to see it without him and I'll see it again as many times as I can. And the. The previous caller see it on the biggest screen with the best sound system you can because it's just made for that.
- [10:11]
Unknown Host
That's awesome. Chris, thank you so much for calling in. This text says I heard an interview with director on Democracy now where he said his deal is not so unprecedented and implied though did not directly say all the controversy around it was because he's black. What are your thoughts?
- [10:29]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Agreed.
- [10:30]
Unknown Host
Yeah. You agree?
- [10:31]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
And I think I essentially kind of say that in my piece that such deals have been around forever but they've been reserved for usually special white males of a certain level of success rate. So think like your George Lucas, right? They have not been for a majority in that way and certainly not for directors of color, African American including. So that is exactly correct that it's stunning because it was attached to Ryan Coogler. If we were talking about George Lucas, nobody would be like, that's a given, right? And that'd be the end of it.
- [11:12]
Unknown Host
I'm speaking to Stephanie Dunn about the vampire blockbuster Sinners. We're taking your calls. Have you seen Sinners? Tell us your takeaways. What are your thoughts or questions do you have about the music, its performances, the story? 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. You may join us on air or you can text to us. This texter says, I agree with the prior. Sinners opened up the conversation of theater's importance. My second viewing tomorrow will be at an IMAX 70 millimeter cinema. In its second weekend, Sinners made 45 million domestically, 161 million worldwide. Can you put those numbers in perspective for us?
- [11:54]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
I sure can, absolutely. The one of the reasons why I love this highlight is because for some strange reason, despite the success of African American directed, written cast, big budget movies, you know, historically there have been this conversation about how, you know, black movies don't do well overseas and they, they don't make the kind of money globally as you know, some blockbuster action film like a Tom Cruise movie or something. Right? Which is a lie, of course. And it seems like every time it happens, it's like it just happened before, but it's been happening. That's the funny part, right? We even saw it with Black Panther, which was Ryan Coogler's other movie. But it seems like such a surprise every time, as if again, it's new, but it's already been proven to be globally very profitable. When we talk about African American culture from television to film.
- [12:53]
Alison Stewart
This, I'm laughing because this call says make sure to stay to the end. That's all we're saying, stay to the end. If you go see it, I want to talk about music and Ryan Coogler like music through the lens of Ryan Coogler. It's especially important in this film because of blues, it's because of Irish music. What is interesting to you about the way music was used in this film?
- [13:18]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
So several things. One has to do with something that my students and I have talked about and we talk about a lot as storytellers, as emerging storytellers where do our stories come from? Right. How do we come up with the creative stories that we come up with for a short film or feature film? And we talk a lot about how there are, a lot of times, sort of autobiographical notes. Not that it is an attempt to tell our exact experiences, but we draw from our cultural accents, from our familial histories. Here is a film that is Ryan Coogler's, by his own words, most personal. It is really the love letter, right, to the uncle, to the late uncle that he lost. I mean, he just said in an interview how he just figured out that that last scene was really him saying goodbye because he can get a chance to say goodbye to his uncle. The music was a very important part of his uncle. That was the connection to the Mississippi blues, to the Delta blues, to Buddy, the blues singer, which was Buddy Johnson, which was his favorite singer. So music is important in, I think, Ryan Coogler's sort of filmography. But this takes it to another level because there are cultural, African American historical notes, in other words, his understanding about the commodification and exploitation of blues and gospel and rock and roll singers, the theft of African American music. But then there is the personal familial. Right. Homage that this film musically pays tribute to and remember. Part of his auteurship is that he is collaborating with Ludwig, with his longtime friend, I think, from USC and there. And he has a history through his family legacy, an introduction to the Delta blues. And they all marry together in this wonderful musical stew that has a whole bunch of historical and personal notes for both the director and his crew.
- [15:26]
Unknown Host
One thing I was thinking is when the Irish vampire comes up to him and says, come join us. You can be like us. He's playing a banjo, and that originated in Africa. And I was like, my head did a little explosion.
- [15:40]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Yeah. You know, I instantly thought about a book called how the Irish Became White. And so notes, put it on your bibliography there. You know, there's a lot of history in terms of groups that were immigrant people, right? And then they came into the racial caste system of America. And of course, they landed or chose to be on one side of it, the other, and also gained a sort of racial, right, privilege. And there's a whole history in that, Right. And many of them became police officers and some landowners. So there's a lot that he is tapping into historically in terms of the real American story of race, slavery and Jim Crow.
- [16:24]
Unknown Host
In Sinners, we're discussing sinners, if you've seen it, we want to know what your thoughts are, what your takeaways were. 212-433. WNYC, 212-433-9692. We'll have more after the break. This is all of it.
- [16:48]
Alison Stewart
You are listening to all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Dr. Stephanie Dunn, Morehouse College cultural scholar, professor and filmmaker. We are discussing Sinners. If you've seen Sinners, give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We want to know your take. Talk to Leon from Somerset, New Jersey, who has an interesting question. Hi, Leon. Thank you so much for calling all OF it. You're on the air.
- [17:19]
Leon
Hi.
- [17:19]
Sid
Hi.
- [17:20]
Leon
Thank you for having me. Hello, Dr. I read your article. It was wonderful. I'll dive right in. So as a African American former foster kid, right. The sort of equation of slavery in America, I see this movie, I'm in love. But I was rescued from the Pentecostal church system, as is the narrative of a lot of foster care systems. And they had a pivotal role kind of in that time to bring equality to child welfare services or at least try that fight. So seeing this movie, I'm excited for my culture, but I'm also conflicted in my unique, you know, sort of journey as I'm seeing a lot of it about, like, the difference in religion and how it's forced. So being that it's a saving grace for me, Right. Like that faith aspect directly related to slavery happens, the church happens and then, you know, foster kids and emancipation, that kind of comes together with the church in a way. Like how do I guess negotiate those feelings while celebrating, you know, the movie? While it seems to maybe suggest that one faith is over the other or something like that. That's my question.
- [18:32]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. Thank you for your thoughtful, your thoughtful question.
- [18:35]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
I love that. And I have some identification with it. So I am the daughter of a grandmother, maternal grandmother and mother who were Church of God in Christ Pentecostal. Like they don't wear no pants and we are in Bible study. And if it's open three, four days a week, growing up, we're there. And I'm in Sunday school and I'm participating in all the Easter programs. And so a real a church girl raised is what I'm saying, by a missionary mom. So I really appreciate what you shared and about your personal experience. Now this is what I will say, though, about that and Sinners, I think that Sinners introduces spirituality, not so much this kind of organized religion that is a box or that is something that we. There's. There are themes of good and evil, obviously. Right. And it has a lot to do with. There's some Africanisms in there. Right. Some ancestral Africanism in terms of thinking about religion. So it's not really encased in merely sort of, I think, notions or experiences of the. Of the black church or the American, you know, church organized religions. In that sense, there's a way in which that character, who is. And I forget her name, forgive me, she is one of the most wonderful parts of this film. Who plays the former lover and current lover of one of the twins, who is really that intuitive. She's a really spiritual character. Very intuitive, yes. There are notes from religions outside of Christianity there in her character. Right. And so what I mean by that is that I don't think that sinners, even though it's called sinners, and we immediately, I think, go biblical. Right. We immediately may go to sort of Christian notions of that juxtaposition of good and evil. But the film itself, the themes open up to a wider spirituality. Right. And each of these characters are really quite unique. And I don't get the feeling when you see the film, you have the father who represents. Right. Of the young blues singer who is the pastor. That's that representation of a traditional, like, right. Black Southern church. But that's not the only representation of spirituality. Right. And that sort of journey of trying to navigate good and evil that's in the film. Does that make sense?
- [21:04]
Alison Stewart
Yeah. Spirituality versus religion. There's a difference.
- [21:08]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Yeah, for sure.
- [21:09]
Alison Stewart
Let's talk to Tia, who's calling from Brooklyn. Hey, Tia, thanks for calling, all of it.
- [21:15]
Tia
Hi, thanks so much for having me. I really wanted to bring up, without spoiling anything in the film, and I think it's really a great segue from what the previous caller was talking about. Just feeling connected to our history as African Americans, as black people. And I grew up in the south, and there's a bit in the movie that talks about the blues. You know, there's a character who's been playing the blues his whole life, and how, for me, that was the first time that I'd ever connected. Like the blues, what the blues means, why it's called the blues, like, what it symbolizes in our community. And I was really moved by that. Seen it three times and it gets me every time.
- [21:53]
Alison Stewart
Thanks so much for calling. This says I liked it overall, but there were so many competing storylines, it made my head spin. So let's talk about, like, what didn't work in the film for you, what would you have thought? Maybe they could have put more care into it?
- [22:09]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Absolutely. You know, the great late bell hooks once said that films were full up, can be full of sort of divergent points, conservative and radical. Right. And that in some ways a perfect film that is provocative and made with such care and thought is not perfect because everything is perfectly done well.
- [22:30]
Alison Stewart
Right.
- [22:31]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
So I preface that by saying one of the things that I would say. I really appreciate the callers saying that about the competing things because I think that does happen. This was such a big canvas thematically. And I think that some of that has to do with the fact that it's such a personal project for Ryan Coogler in terms of his thinking about the family, the uncle. Then he's thinking about African American history and the music and Jim Crow and the land and ownership and the relationship between this community that is multicultural. There is a lot going on. So I would say that one of the things that I would point to, if you're asking me, and I don't really like to grade, but let's just say because I'm a professor, I might be doing that. Right. And I also am a film critic, that if I was giving grades for different parts, I might be going something like AAA for production design. Right. And I might be going an A for costuming. Those are the two sisters, Ruth Carter, the Academy Award winning Ruth Carter, the Academy Award winning production designer, Hannah Beechler. But I probably am going a B in terms of the story on the page, in terms of the screenwriting. So I think there is a little bit, maybe I would have loved to see one more baby little pass at the screenplay in terms of pacing, that even when the twin dies or when the twin is, I should say, he becomes sort of the living dead, if you will. The vampire bite, it comes a bit, I think, too soon and there's something that stops happening in terms of the complexity of that relationship. It doesn't really get kind of teased out on the. Now that he's in that kind of that form. And so there's that and then, you know, so I think that sort of bothered me a little bit. And there's also this. And I understand why, but I'm just saying in terms of story and the way that perhaps I would have thought about the ending, there's probably several endings in the film, although I understand they're all. They were all important and why. But I think sometimes great films also are struggling for like, you want to get out of the door in the right way, but there may be really three good endings and one does not want to give up one of those fantastic endings. And so I think that happens a little bit as well.
- [24:52]
Unknown Host
Our last text says a recovering Southerner here sinners is a must see. So beautiful and so horrific, like our unresolved racial atrocities in this country. Stephanie Dunn, thank you for your time.
- [25:06]
Dr. Stephanie Dunn
Thank you for having me. I loved it. Go see centers so that you can also have your own provocative conversations and debates and all that. Thank you so much.
- [25:17]
Ira Flatow
This is Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.